Travel with others/invited on others trips.

I think most of your questions can be answered by talking with this party and making sure you are all on the same page. Have a meeting and go over all the logistics beforehand, including budget, time together, time apart and so on.

• That said, I usually travel solo but the few times I have traveled
  with friends, we each bought our own airline ticket. But if you're
  traveling from the same place at the same time, you may want to buy
  them together and the person who pays for it is reimbursed.

• We each paid for our own meals - sometimes with separate checks or by
  reimbursement. There is an app called Splitwise that will help you
  divide the expenses, too.

• We each paid for our own entrances and train tickets.

• With hotels, we consulted about the price, location and amenities
  then whoever paid was reimbursed (but in many cases, you can each pay
  individually once you are there). Or you can get separate rooms and each pay for them (possibly booking them together, though).

Lastly, with regards to spending time together, I made it clear to friends I traveled with that I needed some "me" time occasionally. So usually we would talk each morning and arrange time to visit places together and or have lunch, then do some sightseeing on our own. Sometimes we would eat meals together; sometimes not. It was never an issue for us.

ETA: If you decide not to go, just tell them it's not a good time for you to take a long trip like that. That leaves it pretty general and avoids hurt feelings.

Yes, I’ve traveled with friends, some of whom I won’t be traveling with again, although they are still my friends. The most recent trip with friends was 10 days in Spain and Portugal. It was a whirlwind and not my style at all. I was invited after the trip was planned by others who had used a travel agent and made arrangements for private drivers and guides so I knew how expensive it was and the primary costs were paid individually upfront. I was simply needed so that no one would need to pay the “single supplement”. We took turns paying for incidentals like taxi fare and didn’t bother totaling it up. Just figured it would be close enough. We split up a couple of times and did compromise on certain activities (I was tired of rooftop bars and one of the others was tired of cathedrals). I’ve also taken trips with extended family. Again we took turns paying for meals instead of trying to Venmo everything and again, compromise is the key. Even if you think it will be your one and only visit, you have to remember that it isn’t all about you.

Edit to add: regarding meals with friends, we asked for separate checks. We were all pretty flexible on restaurants but the separate checks allowed someone to eat lighter if they wanted. None of the restaurants objected to separate checks.

My kid is 14 and since she was 12 we've brought one of her friends to Europe with us now on our annual summer visit.

1) we consider what the AK (additional kid) might like or be interested in. We involve them in planning. This summer we'll take a girl with Dutch heritage to bicycle tour the region of the Netherlands where her family is from and visit a few of her people. We consider the AK's travel experience too. My kid is now bored on the flight over and sleeps. The AK inevitably doesn't. So we don't hit the ground running like we would if just our family.

2) We control budget in this case so no issue. It is more expensive as rooms for three people are easy but rooms for four are rare. We usually end up booking two rooms when w/o AK we could have booked one.

3) We nearly always eat in the types of places where European families eat, so no problem making AK happy there - always something on the menu. With AK we'll tend to book more apartments with kitchens too - better value than two hotel rooms and helps with food budget. Both kids can give input into what the want at the supermarket. Sometimes we send them alone to buy their own stuff and make their own meal.

4) we are responsible for someone else's baby, and are conservative in oversight. Short safe sojourns in pair with our kid but at this point short leash.

5) We ask AK's family to pay return ticket from Europe to USA, and to provide AK with a small fund for souvenirs, shopping, etc. Outside of that we cover all expenses including flight from USA to Europe (business class on the way over), internal Europe flights and all other transit. We only have one kid so not such a big deal to be a little bit bigger family for a couple of weeks.

BUT the buried lead for sure:

The most important thing by far is compatibility! There are three or four friends of our kid who are candidates for the AK position. All the rest of it pale in comparison to will we all be happy travelling together for 3 weeks? Some of our kids friends are on the hard no list. Fine for a sleep over but not the right fit for a Europe trip. So my primary advice is choose your companion wisely, and all the rest can be sorted out no problem.

How does venmo work?
We don’t have that in Canada.

Venmo is a payment app owned by PayPal which allows people who have the app to pay each other. According to Wikipedia, it is available only in the US.

You are not obliged to go, nor give a truthful reason why not.....in order to be kind and a graceful answer. Alternatively, you could go for the first week with them and then branch off on your own or come home. This gives you a chance to try both friend and solo travel. I recall you wondering about that, after you lost your best travel buddy...your Dad.
Even if flying the same routes, I recommend buying your own airline tickets. Things may happen and being financially attached to tickets or bookings for 2 non family groups may be fraught with problems if there need to be changes or cancellations.
If you go, decide beforehand to settle up every day for any shared costs. Chances are your lodgings will either be short let apartments, or 2 rooms as isn't easy to find rooms for 3 separate adults...and would you want to share anyway?
How to you split equally if there is one of you and 2 of them? That doesn't seem fair. I would make separate bills one of those discussions and make a habit of mentioning it when the waiter comes to take orders.
I would also make it clear that all involved be allowed to do their own thing. I rarely travel with friends, but one Italy trip, every time we sat to discuss the next day, we asked if the other wanted to see anything on their own. We were quite in synch and she was a very low demand person and happy to enjoy whatever I wanted to do. As I also planned the entire thing, it was really my trip with a good friend to share it with.
If, while helping them plan, you have seen differences of interests, you can use that as reasons it is okay to see things separately.
If you say no, maybe offer to be a What's App call away to help them navigate the first few days. Help them order a sim card before arrival so they are able to be connected from the start (or whatever international phone plan they may have access to).

First question to answer-do you want to spend three weeks in close contact with these people? If so, go. If not, don't.
How well do you know the mother and do you think she will be a compatible travel partner? You don't want to be in the position of having to leave them in the middle of a three week trip if she's a big problem. I do like the idea of you going on the first week with them to get them more comfortable with the travel, and then going on your own trip. Plus, someone who might be ok for a short trip might really get on your nerves on a trip this long. And will these people expect you to hold their hands every minute of every day, which would take away your option to do some things and eat some meals by yourself.

Re: Can you afford it? Will going on this trip prevent you from taking a trip that you really want to take, maybe to somewhere you haven't been before.?

They want me to go. In part to share the trip experience and in part because while I am not the most frequent traveler to Europe i have a bit of experience.

If you decide to go with them, I would suggest having clear expectations about your role on the trip. Will they expect you to be their “tour guide,” or a just a knowledgeable travel companion?

(I learned the importance of clarifying this after traveling with a dear friend. This friend participated in the advance trip planning and seemed very engaged, but once we landed became completely helpless, and said things like “I thought you’d have fun ‘showing me around since you’ve been here before’”). Yikes.
I had expected to help with logistics, but was not anticipating the level of help my friend expected - something my friend had never indicated during the planning. My own fault for not CLEARLY discussing expectations ahead of time.

Douglas, I have found that when I travel with others, unless we are quite close, the trip always becomes about them. If you know that going into it and do so with eyes wide open, no problem. I have done several trips like that and enjoyed them. I end up doing things that I normally wouldn't and can sometimes feel a bit discouraged if my interests are not valued by the group. My daughter-in-law and I have reached a compromise because we love each other. I go to thrift stores for her and she goes to museums for me. Compromise and communication are key or you may find yourself resenting the other travelers.

My sister is the exception. We are close enough (much like you were with your father) that we can be completely honest about needs and interests and don't worry about splitting up for a day if our interests don't coincide. These trips feel more equal somehow.

Costs. I have found this to be a little tricky at times. I traveled with two couples and they thought it was quite natural to split the cost of a vacation home three ways, even though I am a single. I cheerfully paid, but I wondered if it ever occurred to them that I was 1/5 of the group not 1/3. If you know up front that things may not be exactly "even" and you can live with it, it helps.

I really liked the suggestion from a poster above that you maybe start the trip with them and get them started, and then perhaps move on to something else. I do know that the fact that you will be missing your father while you travel impacts how this sounds to you. Would you rather be with others, even if it isn't your first choice of activities or do you feel okay about part group and part solo?

Either way, happy travels to you. I am glad you are still traveling!!

I have had people suggest traveling to Europe with them, but I’ve begged off because I know it would become a situation where I morphed into their travel guide. Instead, I’ve recommended the appropriate Rick Steves tour to the locations they want to see. And I think this answer applies to your situation. If this really is a one-time trip, one of the RS Best of Europe trips would be an excellent way for them to see so much! That option eliminates all of the five topics listed above.

I did travel with my adult daughter last year. It was her first time to Europe. I’ll answer your questions for that trip:

1. I asked her a lot of questions about what types of things she wanted to see and do, but I asked her not to name cities. There are a lot of cities that can provide the same experience, so I didn’t want a Venice, Florence, Rome answer initially. Through a lot of conversation, I came up with 9 different itineraries and had her pick her favorite. I had been to some of the locations, but we also purposely had at least two locations that were new to both of us to explore together. (That also helps avoid the “tour guide” tendency.). In the locations where I had been, we did different activities in some to also make it more fun for both of us.
2. This one was easy. I told her upfront that I would pay for all of the hotels, and I picked them by location; everything in the middle of historic centers. I gave us a variety - budget hotels, nice hotels, a small apartment, a B&B, rooms in an old palazzo. We each paid for our airline & train tickets, museums & activities, and we split our meals 50/50 - everything using the Splitwise app.
3. Well, we definitely agreed on gelato stops! ; ). But, seriously, this also went very well and in fact, we joked that our tastes were so similar that we ordered the same dish as the other person several times. What helped is that we discussed this before the trip. I mentioned that we should decide what are our priorities overall for the trip. Did she want to put the money towards expensive meals, cooking classes or food tours, or guided tours at specific locations, etc.? Her wishes were more in the “experiences “ category, so we did an excellent cooking class in Florence and a food tour in Rome. Our evening meals were nice but not extravagant. We shared a pizza in a small piazza some evenings if we had a nicer meal the night before.
4. I talked about this ahead of time and mentioned it during our trip to please feel free to go to two different things if she wanted either some time away from me or if she didn’t want to go see Paestum, for instance - something I definitely wanted to see. My husband & I enjoy doing two separate activities occasionally, and it’s fun to share our experiences afterwards over dinner, My daughter & I ended up doing everything together, except she took some photos for 20 minutes in Venice while I wanted to run back to our hotel before our tour was beginning.
5. Oh, I answered that in #2 above,

@Carol now retired, when we travel domestically with a group, renting a home, the group splits the cost for the lodging by the number of bedrooms each wants to reserve. A family with kids has the choice whether they want a separate bedroom for their children, which would change them from paying 1/x to 2/x.

I hope your groups’ food costs were divided by 1/5! : )

Douglas,

I am trying de decide if A) I can afford the trip and B) if I want to go.

You've received (and will continue to receive) great advice here but the bottom line is this:

What do you want to do?

I think the answer to Cala’s question is essential, and if you’re honest with yourself,
then that is your answer.

Re: Can you afford it? Will going on this trip prevent you from taking a trip that you really want to take, maybe to somewhere you haven't been before.?

Here are a few posts that you may find helpful:

• How to avoid traveling with friends mistakes
• Ground Rules when traveling with others
• Bucket list vs Buddy’s List

I’ve included your own post, on purpose, because I think the title you chose is the answer to your question.

Do you want to fulfill your own bucket list or your buddy’s bucket list?

I may be wrong, but I think you may be having a difficult time trying to figure out how to say, “no”, to your buddy.

I like what MariaF said:

You are not obliged to go, nor give a truthful reason why not.....in order to be kind and a graceful answer.

Whatever you decide, I wish you a wonderful trip!

I’ve had friends ask if I’d go to Italy with them. I knew it was because I had been numerous times and they needed me to take the lead. That didn’t bother me. I just didn’t want to go where they wanted to go, as I’d been many times. I wanted to see a different area of Europe and they did not. I had no problem saying no to going.
I ask friends to travel to Mexico with me every winter. We split the room charge. Those who go know upfront how I spend my days and my dinner time and they can join me or not. Not a problem. One friend invited herself ( not a problem but I really didn’t want her to go ). Once I told her that I cook breakfast, eat out for dinner, and walk up to a few miles to get to restaurants, she backed out. She couldn’t understand why I would eat out for dinner when we could cook all of our meals.

Some friends ( a couple) wanted to visit Costa Rica and so did we. When she voiced her idea of seeing the country, we immediately told her we were not interested. We wanted a guide and she didn’t.
I found a tour which she seemed to like. The tour guide was now the boss and not her! Whew!
It’s ok to say no if you really don’t want to go.

I have found this to be a little tricky at times. I traveled with two
couples and they thought it was quite natural to split the cost of a
vacation home three ways, even though I am a single. I cheerfully
paid, but I wondered if it ever occurred to them that I was 1/5 of the
group not 1/3. If you know up front that things may not be exactly
"even" and you can live with it, it helps.

I've stressed out over that at times, and think that each situation needs to be evaluated individually, but my immediate thought would be to consider you as 1/3rd if the accommodation had 3 bedrooms. But meals, tours, etc, definitely 1/5th. Open and honest communication before anything is booked is a must and can save a lot of headaches and possibly friendships. For me it goes beyond just the finances of the trip but also travel styles. I have no doubt that I'd be difficult to travel with and I'm not afraid to tell friends and family that. I'm not a selfish person at home, but I want to be selfish while travelling so I can do things the way I want.

Edit to add: in hopes that people don't think that I'm a monster, when I say "I", I do mean we. My wife of course gets an equal say, and both of us are willing to be out-voted 1-1 if the other really wants to do something that the other doesn't. We make excellent travel buddies and both agree that adding another person or persons may be difficult. We're open to the idea, but they must take part in our weekly travel planning.

You have received some really good advice. Unfortunately talking about expectations ahead of time doesn’t necessarily mean things will happen the way you expect.

Last year we took a 10 week trip, and we were with another couple for the first 5 weeks. I had traveled to Europe with her twice before, just the two of us, and it went fine. She is not an independent traveler and I made all the reservations and handled everything on the ground. I knew that going in. We are very close with these friends, but traveling as two couples was very different. They chose the countries and together we chose the places we would go. I made all the arrangements with the exception of their airline tickets and they made their own train reservations after I told them what to get. We had a car for Ireland and half of our time in Scotland. So far, so good. Even though we discussed food, mealtimes, etc. once we were there it all revolved around their preferences. She eats breakfast early, he wants it later, she doesn’t eat lunch and wants an early dinner, he has a later lunch and wants a later dinner. It was a lot and there were no concessions to our preferences, of which my husband and I are on the same page. Then there are activities. There was mostly the expectation from them that we would do everything together, which mostly made sense when we had a car. They did do a few things on their own otherwise, like roaming around a town. We were able to ask at restaurants for them to put some of the check on our credit card and some on theirs. I don’t think any refused to do it.

Am I happy we took the trip with them? I’ll say that it was mostly okay, but we decided we will never travel with others again unless it is for a limited time, say meeting up for a few days. I spent countless hours planning this trip with them in mind, including going to places we had already been and wouldn’t have returned to if not for them. My reward for all that work was to have everything revolve around them. We are still good friends, but life is short and we decided we aren’t willing to sacrifice what we want to do to accommodate a different agenda. If you feel like taking this trip will mean you will sacrifice something else that you prefer to do you might consider staying home. It sounds like they want a tour guide. Is that how you want to spend your vacation time and money? How well you know both of them is important too. I’m more than happy to help friends plan their trips, but I won’t be traveling with them.

Really good questions. As always, I’m impressed with thought and kindness that have gone into the answers you’ve received so far. Maybe I’m reading too much into your parenthetical “(or at least I’m trying to help)”, but that sounds as if you’re experiencing some resistance or frustration already?

I’ve traveled with friends and family in Europe with some great successes and some utter failures. After those experiences I know my own style better and understand what a good travel companion fit could be for me.

I agree with the others, if you know this isn’t the trip for you, you can just say “no, thank you” or “sorry, I just can’t make it work.” If you are on the fence though, before you commit, sit down with both buddy and mom to draw them out on their travel styles, expectations and especially their concerns and limitations. Tell them about your personal travel style and expectations. Let them know that your concern is that everyone is comfortable and happy - since this is their big trip. It may take a few conversations. If you then decide this isn’t the right fit for you, you can say so. At the very least the conversation will start to prepare them to travel as a duo.

Question #3. You’re right on, food/eating out can be such a tricky issue at home, much less traveling with friends or relatives. On a trip to Paris, my mother-in-law refused to ever pay 6€ for a cup of coffee at a sidewalk cafe. No sidewalk cafes for us on that trip! We compromised by buying drinks at a grocery and sitting on a park bench. I got very “hangry” in Bavaria one time wandering the streets trying to find a restaurant that was agreeable for my vegan sister-in-law, her meat-loving spouse and their toddler. And, I just want to forget that embarrassing dinner with friends in Lyon when the person making the restaurant choice forgot to tell the others what prices to expect at the Michelin starred restaurant. “I’ll just have the side salad.” I think it’s OK to occasionally split up for meals if you can’t come up with a palatable compromise. I’d think twice though if there’s a major incompatibility around food.

Currently, the only people I travel with are my husband and adult daughter. In the near future we plan to include our daughter’s boyfriend. We travel well as all adult “unit” not just because we know each other, but because we spend a good amount of time in the planning stages to make sure that everyone’s expectations and priorities are met.

Regarding #4. We have come up with a ranking system for activities. Everyone researches our destination and contributes ideas for activities/sites. My husband lists all ideas onto a spreadsheet and each of us then ranks the activity with 1 = must do/see; 2 = OK, I’ll go along; 3 = no thanks. We then average the responses and give each item a group average ranking. The “1s” and “1.5s” all float to the top and we easily prioritize our group itinerary and also know where we will split up so no one is disappointed. Sometimes we discover that no one actually wanted to go to the top of the Eiffel Tower or see the Crown Jewels. Time and money saved. This system makes everyone responsible for at least having a basic familiarity with our destination and the possibilities while there.

Rarely do we expect to stay together while in a museum or large site. We always make a plan at the entrance for when and where to meet up later. We all have phones with us so we can keep in touch by texting if we’re done before the appointed hour or need more time. Can’t say enough about the value of having phones to be able to find each other if someone is “lost.” : )

I have traveled several times with family members ranging from four of us (my wife, self, son and his roommate), also with 7 persons including a senior when I was in my 30s, also a cruise with 13 persons, including my ex-wife.

If you are doing a cruise or taking a guided tour, no problem the tour includes meals, lodging, transport, etc. On a cruise, some may take different excursions, but no big deal.

But going in on your own, then someone need to be in charge, a leader to make decisions. That must be agreed on from the beginning. Also, the itinerary must be agreed on in advance, as well as lodging.

As far as meals, if you go to Paris and have a party of 10 and expect to pay with five or six different checks, yes, that could be a problem. This require advance planning with the restaurant. If some want to go elsewhere for dinner, fine, just meet back at the hotel at a certain time.

The key is to plan ahead, make sure everyone agrees to the rules.

I've traveled every possible way; solo; with a friend; with my wife; family vacation (wife and son, the latter from infancy up to his current college age); with my mother; with my sister; solo but in a tour group; solo but with my mother also on the tour; and at various ages from high school through partying 20s to current more sedate 60+. They all have their pros and cons and I'm glad I've experienced the world so many different ways. I find that with sharing expenses, don't worry about splitting checks each time, and don't sweat the really little stuff (such as splitting a check half-half even if one person had one more drink), but write up at the end of each day who paid for what, before you forget, so you can equalize it later (either as you go, or settling up at the end of the trip).

I am absolutely enjoying this thread.

And this is genius !

We have come up with a ranking system for activities. Everyone researches our destination and contributes ideas for activities/sites. My husband lists all ideas onto a spreadsheet and each of us then ranks the activity with 1 = must do/see; 2 = OK, I’ll go along; 3 = no thanks. We then average the responses and give each item a group average ranking. The “1s” and “1.5s” all float to the top and we easily prioritize our group itinerary and also know where we will split up so no one is disappointed.

I like your activity ranking system too JenS!

I think if I did this though with my crew we'd end up at the mall for half the trip. Benign dictatorship will continue until the revolution comes 😁

Douglas,

Another question is if you decide the trip is not for you, how do you gracefully say no thanks?

I think this is a difficult dilemma because if you say; “no, thanks, or sorry I can’t”, you may feel that you’re letting your buddy (and his mom) down.
If you go along and go on the trip, for this reason, you may end up resenting yourself and your friend.

You need to make a decision that is right for you, and be okay with it.

You may find this helpful: How to say no to others (and why you shouldn’t feel guilty)

Hope this helps!

If I were you, I would not actually GO on the trip, but help them in any way I could to plan it with them.
Not FOR them, but with them.
Ask them to bring you back something you like in Italy as a gift for your help.

I travel either alone or with one friend whom I’ve known 50 years.
I’ve tried with other friends, close ones, and ended up being totally frustrated at them , having to zip my lip……

This is a very topical thread for me right now.
The thought of traveling with others is a huge nightmare for me. In the past I have done some domestic travel with my extended family (Mom, Dad, Sister, BIL, and kids) and once with more (DH, kids, Mom, MIL, Sister, BIL and 2 friends). These were 2 cruises, a beach house and a holiday after my son moved across the country. These all worked well due to sleeping in the same bed every night of of the trip which made doing things together or splitting up much easier.

I am planning my first international, land based, multiple city trip with my two sons and one DIL for 2024.
I am a little anxious about it, but I still have a huge upper hand due to being the financer (ha).

It wouldn't be the other person(s)' fault, but I would never be able to travel like this with friends or peers. As Allen said above, I am generous at home, but I am selfish on the road.

I have already traveled quite a bit with my younger son and it works well. I am generous with generating the itinerary based on locations and types of sites that he wants to see, but I am a bear about certain things.
Prior to the trip I will be setting ground rules. My older son and DIL will be getting Osprey 40L backpacks (for Christmas) and a packing list. I will ask for a wish list from them prior to setting the itinerary, but after that I will be in charge of final decisions. I will choose the hotels. I will absolutely encourage splitting up on non changing location days. If you are late, I will leave without you and you can catch up as you can. Some days, there will be planned events with paid tickets or guides and I will expect everyone to be there. There will be other days that I will have a list of options that can be discussed, then we can go as a group or split up.

My sons and DIL know me well and will (mostly) happily agree to this as this trip wouldn't be possible without me.
I have politely turned down other invitations to travel with others. I just tell them that they would not enjoy traveling with me and leave it at that.

douglas, best of luck with your decision!

This:

First question to answer-do you want to spend three weeks in close contact with these people? If so, go. If not, don't.

It sounds like you've already been helping plan the trip, so you should have some idea about what it would be like traveling with your friend and his mom. If they are needy/worried/anxious/decision impaired, you can reasonably expect to spend a lot of time being tour guide and in charge. If they seem compatible with your travel style and are choosing activities you would choose for yourself, then maybe consider going. But for myself, it is enough stress getting myself around and making choices about how to spend my time. Having to shepherd two others who are trying to make a lifetime dream trip come true would be way too much pressure. It is a great gift helping plan, which as you know is a lot of work. You need not feel obligated execute the plan for them.

It's a little like marriage. When you're dating everyone is fresh and positive, acting and looking their best.

And then when you're together all of the time it's a little different. Not necessarily negative, mind you, but an entirely different reality.

douglas, what's your gut telling you? You know these people, and should have an idea of how able they are to cooperate, and to adapt to a new environment. IME, it's not fun if they will be expecting you to know and understand everything for them. And not fun if you're held responsible for their having a good trip. Yes pacing, money and food are flashpoints. No easy way out of that, especially if there's no basic understanding of what to expect.

Travel can bring out the best, and the worst, in people. So I wouldn't do it again unless I had a real personal desire to go. It's a favor that wont be acknowledged as such. Even if you discuss and agree on rules, they kind of fall out the window when faced with the reality of actually being there.

Gracefully saying no? Just don't accept that somehow inviting you to work for them is a favor to you. Don't give up a later trip (i.e., the money) you really want to do.

Splitwise is a great app where you can log all the shared expenses. We used it in December for 3 of us and it made everything so easy. One nice feature is that say only 2 of the 3 people shared an expense, you can. leave off the other person.

For us, we had agreed upon meals ahead of time. Breakfast would be at the hotels. We made our lunch and dinner decisions depending on what the rest of the days itinerary was. So if lunch was more open, we would sit down for that. We shared the meals, so the expense was very easy in that regard.

I do think you have to be completely comfortable with traveling with others. I have traveled with friends and family, and there are some that no way would I go on a big trip with, or to Europe with, as I know it just wouldn't work out. We took my mom to Europe once, and while she had a good time, she was anxious the entire time and it just overall was not a good fit for her. I am glad we took her, but we didn't offer a second time;)

I have done this two different times and won’t do it again. There is no way around becoming the tour guide for this trip. It will be vacation for them, but you will not get to have that same experience because you will be doing all of the work both beforehand in the planning stages as well as when you are there.

A lot of really good advice on this thread and so timely because I just returned last night from a trip with a friend that was a disaster. She hadn’t traveled in Europe before and although I tried to discuss itineraries and how things can be different there, she was “too busy” to read the RS book I sent her along with other information, and therefore I was left to do every bit of the planning with zero input from her. To me, going to a foreign country not knowing anything about it might be frightening/intimidating/overwhelming. Well, it certainly was for her so she bailed and went home after six days. I had traveled with various people prior, and because they participated in the planning, and we shared our expectations, we had enjoyable trips together. As others have said, thoroughly discussing expectations, joint participation in planning, and figuring out exactly how expenses will be managed is key to a successful and fun trip.

Douglas, don’t do it! As you can see from reading these threads, too many ways a trip can go sideways with friends.
I will share my own recent experience. On our second safari in Africa, I knew I wanted a private vehicle and guide. We invited some friends of my husbands for our 8 day safari. It mostly went ok, but it seemed like every time I was about to click the shutter to take a photo, our friends in the back decided to get into the cooler or just generally move, which can cause camera shake and make for less than ideal photos. My fault. I should have discussed how important trying to take a good photo is to me and that staying still is important. I still got some good shots, but realized that it is almost impossible to anticipate all scenarios.
I know your dad was an awesome travel buddy for you and now he is gone. Time to go solo or meet the woman of your dreams!

Wow, Rachele……your friend must have been quite overwhelmed to actually fly home in the middle of a trip!
I hope you enjoyed YOUR trip despite this.

Douglas, I agree with everything the previous posters have advised. I will add only that if you are even remotely considering taking a three-week trip with your friend and his mom, definitely do a shorter trial run trip first........a long weekend somewhere that involves some flights, meals, deciding where to go/how.

The ONLY way I would travel with friends (and we have successfully) is on small ship cruises, where each could could decide separately what they wanted to do ashore (take ship or other organized excursions or go on their own), when/where they wanted to dine or, alternatively, get cabin service meals (which we have done evenings when traveling after a long day or for breakfast when we wanted to get read/quickly eat at the same time). And, we have always purposely made choices to allow some "separation." That separation is healthy and gives you all something to share/talk about when choosing to share a meal together. And, it is good to not have every meal together -- it is nice to have a quiet meal by yourself or to join other fellow travelers, so you do not get worn out by the same ole same ole. Meeting/dining with new people is fun and refreshing.

Another way I "might consider" traveling with friends (depending on which friends) would be on an organized group tour, like Rick Steves, Tauck, National Geographic, etc. The reason I say "might," is that I have some friends who are not morning people, and I would not want to listen to HOW difficult it was for them to get up and get going and how they really needed more flexibility. There are times we have traveled independently, and we would comfortably smile enjoying our breakfasts, as we watched a tour group load up on a bus, thankful we could "go"at a more enjoyable pace.

I would be inclined to "pass" on the opportunity requested of you, other than to provide any front-end guidance you can before they leave. Granted, going as a group could potentially turn into two wonderful new travel partners for future trips and a deeper friendship, but it could also turn into the biggest travel mistake you ever made and cause a negative impact on the relationship(s).

I like the idea (one of the posters above suggested) of simply saying that traveling with others can be stressful and really "trying" on relationships, and you value his/their friendship too much to allow anything to compromise it..........so therefore, you do not think you would be the best person to go on this trip with them. Suggest they take an organized tour or two.

As someone who has been married to my favorite travel partner for going on 50 years, there are times (if the commitment/love was not so deep), we would have ended up in divorce from travel stress/exhaustion. I will NEVER again sit next to him sharing an arm rest in coach! Never! I would still love to find the passengers who sat in front of us that night (the last leg of a long, three-leg flight home) to apologize and let them know our marriage did survive.............LOL!

Travel is enjoyable, enlightening, exciting.........but it is also exhausting. I always tell young couples (before they decide to get married) to hang or strip wallpaper in a very small room together and to travel internationally together (the longer the flights and the more connections the better).............there are few better ways to see "how" your partner reacts under stress.

You can only guess how your friend and his mom will be.............but I think you have some early warning signs.

I have done this two different times and won’t do it again. There is
no way around becoming the tour guide for this trip. It will be
vacation for them, but you will not get to have that same experience
because you will be doing all of the work both beforehand in the
planning stages as well as when you are there.

From my point of view, I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing to be running the show. My wife and I did multiple family vacations with my in-laws when our kids were small and we drove the boat. I say this in the nicest way that they were all sheep willing to be led and so we organized our days and set agendas. The only thing we insisted on was daily input and honesty.

There have been studies on what happens for a group of three and it is basically 2 against 1.
However, the 2 particular people could change and thus the dynamics. Since it is your buddy and mom, that right there makes the 2, against you. However, generational or gender gap could change that so that it is you and buddy, or you and mom. Then again, it could change according to the decisions being made at the time.
Those are just dealing with decisions such as dinner choices. As time passes in the trip some things may coalesce. If you are seen as the leader, it is not a stretch to go from leader to being resented for the way you lead or the choices you make in leading. Perhaps resentment. And, resentment is a powerful motivator for 2 against one.
So you have choices, leadership, and feelings entering into the dynamics of the group of 3.
Maybe best to not go, or to invite a fourth party. That changes the group dynamics, probably in your favor.

treemoss, how about inviting two good friends so you outnumber the others 3-2?

Great thread! First off, if you can't be candid and direct with your buddy, I'd decline right away. You can't be polite and non-confrontational if you travel together. The mom is the wild card - does he defer to her or are they good communicators?
I suspect people who have never been to Europe before, AND people who haven't traveled together before, have no idea how they will feel when they actually get there. If you are truly considering this trip, and not looking for a way to decline gracefully, I'd lay down the law for them in advance:
1. We won't do everything together
2. We are going to spend money and not pinch every Euro. Give them some examples, ie the 6 Euro coffee
3. Decide on your non-negotiables, ie. no sad/touristy restaurants
4. Decide on tolerance for getting up early/staying up late. This could be another deal breaker.
5. If you are the tour guide for the day, you are in charge, no complaints
6. Roll with Rick's "No Grumps" policy - one of our favorite things ( we use it as a couple too)

Better yet, draw up a contract of expectations and consequences for all parties. Sort of like a marriage contract. Get into details.

Problem solved.

This is a great post and there are a lot of good replies. I especially like KC’s suggestion above. I prefer solo travel, but have gone on a few European trips with family members. We planned everything together beforehand and we all knew that we’d want alone time. Frankly, I think 3 weeks is way too long for a trip with others you’ve never traveled with before. I really like the idea of taking a “practice” trip before to test the waters.

Good luck with your decision, douglas, and please let us know what you decided and how the trip went if you did go.

We found out the hard way that traveling with family is a PIA. When we were going to Croatia with my husband’s brother, wife and 2 teenage kids I did all the arrangements. Every detail, every reservation, every ticket for 2 weeks.
We split all meals 50/50, nice of us yes? We thought so. No complaints.
The problem was with transportation. I split it 6 ways - 4 for them 2 for us, such as ferry tickets.
Well, we had hired a private driver to take us from Dubrovnik to Orebić to ferry over to Korčula. My BIL didn’t have the cash so he said give me your share and I will charge it. Okay. My SIL came back to us that we didn’t give enough. Really? I explained that we were paying per person. Didn’t go over well. We were talking about maybe $50.
One year later at a family Christening my BIL brings it up, how cheap we are. REALLY, you want to go there and at a family celebration.
Suffice it to say that we never traveled together again and since my BIL passed away, we haven’t heard from her.
Yeah, we could have paid the extra to keep peace but my SIL is really so tight with a buck it became the principal of the matter. They were/are not poor, believe me. We still paid the meals 50/50 the rest of the trip and not once did we suggest otherwise. Lesson learned.

I had a similar experience to Allan's with my in-laws. Now that they're gone, I really treasure my memories of the trips we took with them to London and Paris/Italy. They were very agreeable and appreciative to everything I planned. I do always ask the family members I travel with what they most want to see so I can incorporate those into my planning. Money was never an issue-as I recall, for meals, we took turns paying.

As someone else mentioned, traveling in a group of three can be tricky. It can become two against one if there is a disagreement as to what you want to do. One of my friendships did not survive a trip where she felt like the other two did not want to see things her way and I never heard from her again. My feeling is that this friend was inflexible and not willing to compromise. However, I have successfully gone with a group of three on several other trips and the key was to discuss what our expectations were beforehand and to have companions willing to compromise. Just like in a Rick Steve's group, it should include "fun and flexible" people.

There is a lot of good advice on the forum. I can share my experience from multiple trips of a lifetime with friends who have limited travel experience outside of the US. I have traveled quite extensively internationally, so for the most part I have become the travel agent and tour guide.

Most of your questions will be answered while planning the trip with your friends. You will learn a lot in the planning process, from how engaged they are to how collaborative the planning is. The one thing I learned upfront in planning is to layout the expectations for the trip, the budget, and the pace of travel in advance.

Specifically to answer your questions:

• Travel itinerary: getting a good planning map is helpful in planning the trip. I typically layout the overall map so that we can see the distance between locations. As a rule of thumb, I like to spend at least 2 nights if not 3 in a place as each location change is at minimum half day. As for time in a place, I have been to a lot of the sights before, so I try to balance the major sites with something new. Also, if the couple is willing, you can split up in a city. They can go see the first-time tourist attractions and you can visit something different and then meet up to exchange stories at dinner.
• Travel budget this is where I get very explicit about costs and expectations. This is the time to determine if your party wants to stay at the Four Seasons while you want to stay at Holiday Inn. If you are way to far apart on the type of hotel, then you have two options--not go or see if you can stay at separate places and meet up. This is one area that I have run into issues and if there is not a good compromise before you go, then it can be an issue while you are traveling.
• Food. Before you go, talk about expectations on eating. This includes not only what you eat, but what time you eat. For example, we had friends who wanted to eat dinner at 5:00 in Spain. You can work creatively around food options, from doing a tapas/apperitivo and then later dinner to going on a food tour. If you like and they are comfortable, splitting up is fine. The key is whether they are comfortable. We went with friends who did not want to be separated. They were just too nervous.
• Site seeing. You can absolutely split up if your friends will agree to it. I have traveled with friends who did not want to be separated and it was very stressful.
• Paying. There are a couple of approaches. If you are traveling with people and there are equal expenses, you just trade-off on meals, etc. It is easier than keeping an account. For larger groups or unequal expenses, then I just collect receipts from who paid and then at the end of the trip do an accounting of balance due. Usually since I do the planning, I handle most of the money. This has never been an issue as long as you agree in advance on the costs and how to split. The other thing you do need to think about is timing of your payments. For example, for things you book in advance, do you want the person to pay at the time of payment or at the time of use or after the trip. This depends primarily on cash flow requirements of the group.
• Other critical items: The other items that were critical to discuss in advance are:
• Packing: this was one of the biggest issues in planning with everyone I have travelled with. Packing light is super important for me. Getting alignment on packing is not something everyone thinks about, but it is really important.
• Wake up times. I have traveled with friends who don't want to get started until noon. Determining schedule preferences is important.
• Carrying things. This goes along with packing light, but even then, my friends on one trip where not in great shape, so my husband and I had to carry their bags. Not a big issue, but one to discuss.

Hope this helps.

Travel is wonderful but also stressful, expensive, and subject to personal preferences. It's impossible to perfectly align with others tastes and habits. Often things do not work out well. But this might help :

• allow for different people or subgroups to spend the day doing different things. Perhaps someone rises early and someone else wants to sleep in. Someone wants to go shopping and someone else wants to go a museum, etc. Some people want to eat a nice dinner and others want to snack off food they filled their pockets with from the morning Buffet. So just don't expect to agree. Hopefully you can at least agree what cities to go to but even that can be problematic.

However, there is greater security from crime by staying in a larger group. several people can research the best places in a city and more heads are better. It can be a lot more fun to experience things in a group.

• often problems arise from money issues. It's sorta easy to each pay your own way - but there is a lot of pressure for a single person to pay. Suppose you are booking a hotel for 3 rooms. It's easy to just book it in one shot, rather than have 3 different people log in, search for the hotel, make sure the date is correct, and hope all the rooms are not taken. Same thing for night trains, overnight ferries, air fares, etc. But once you get into that, then you have start keeping track of who paid for what - and sometimes you're late for a train or simply forget to log something...

I'm in the "don't do it" column. I'm not seeing many upsides to going with them from those who've done something similar. It sounds like a no win situation for you -- especially if they are like the person who was "too busy" to educate herself on what to expect in general and in all the places they want to go.

My first clue is that it's a "trip of a lifetime” for them. I'd be concerned that they'd expect a "perfect" trip with no glitches along the way. We all know that's impossible and you know who'd be blamed for each little deviation from their expectations. You could even be blamed for bad weather. ⛈️

As someone else said, "There is no way around becoming the tour guide for this trip. It will be vacation for them, but you will not get to have that same experience because you will be doing all of the work both beforehand in the
planning stages as well as when you are there." In essence, you'd be working for them at your own expense. If they wanted to pay 100% of your costs, it might be worth the work, but even then I'd be hesitant about going.

To me, your post sounds like you have lots of well-deserved trepidations about going on the trip with them. I think your gut is telling you what to decide.

Beyond that, I'd even be chary about doing the detailed planning for them. Like others have said and depending on where exactly they want to go, I've heard nothing but good about the Rick Steves Best of Europe in 21 Days tour. I know one couple that liked it so much that they did it twice.

https://www.ricksteves.com/tours/europe/europe-21-days

Full disclosure: I've never planned a trip for a group of people. There's a reason for that. 🥴 I have planned several for my husband and I. My experience is that even planning for only two, you can get blamed for things over which you have no control. Yes, he told me it was my fault that it snowed in late June at our hotel on the Grossglockner High Alpine Road in Austria. Ridiculous! 🤣

I agree with Lo 100 percent. You can not “win” no matter how hard you try. They should take a tour or cruise, paying for planning and execution of the trip.

Douglas,

Wondering minds want to know…
Did you decide to go on this trip?
I saw your other post.

Wishing you a great trip!

Yes, please let us know what your decision was in the end, Douglas!

SandyO has the perfect template for a contract. Cover all of the bases and have it signed by all applicable parties and notarized.

Include an addendum that all issues that fall outside of the contract will be decided by one person who is elected by the others.

This is topical for me since about to take the plunge on traveling with another couple. Already with flight cancellations we have been separated from the same flights each way to different flights each way, so starting out with this uncomfortable reality.

A thing not explicitly mentioned is the value of food to a person. For me food fits in the same category as a toilet: a necessary part of travel but not worth a lot of thought. For other people food is so important they can recite every dish of every meal that they have eaten on every trip going back years. I used to listen aghast to family members who returned from visiting England or Yellowstone and the entire recitation of the trip was exclusively about each meal, how it was served, what was right or wrong about each dish, regrets about choices made. For me a Wonder Bread and Parkay sandwich makes a quick complement to freeing up the time to see another important site, and the thought of suffering through one of those 90+ minute European dinners every day is a little nauseating, considering how the time could be better spent.

Tom, food is absolutely a flash point. The thing that irritates me, is people who want to dawdle over lunch when there are things to do and see. People seem to assume that their way is everyone else's way too, and take it as a personal attack if you try and move things along. It only takes one.

My thing (grrr) is people who have gone a very long way to see things, then get up late and dawdle in the mornings, then spend a bit more time on their phones.
I want to get going reasonably early to see as much as possible on my hard earned trip.

My initial sense, douglas, is they want you to go, possibly to help thank you for helping them plan the trip of a lifetime (buying you dinner sometimes, or in other ways), but more likely to serve as Trip Leader. You’ll have helped put her trip together, and perhaps they’ll rely on your experience to make it all happen, and ensure they get the most out of the itinerary that’s been created. So:

1, 2, & 3 If they see it as ma trip that they had you organize, and they’re making you along to lead it, then you calm the shots for where, how long, and at what price level. You also get more of a vote on where to eat, but of course can give them options to arrive at a group vote. Maybe mix it up and each person makes the food decisions every third day.

4) Set aside a couple of hours each day (or once in a while) for @alone time.”

5). If it’s really their trip, but they’re bringing you along as a “guide” and “advisor,” it would be nice if they paid for some things, at least occasionally. Maybe buy you dinner, or cover a certain percentage of your cost. Have a meeting well ahead of the trip, and determine who pays for what. If it’s too much for your budget (including airfare), wish them a good trip (as you helped plan), but let them know it’s not something you have money (or time?) for joining them.

When I’ve traveled with friends, we’ve found it best to just split the meal check evenly. So somebody ordered an extra wine or beer one time, and somebody else drank free tap water. One person has dessert or a pricier main course one time. But next time, they don’t get the most expensive thing on the menu- it evens out over a trip, and saves a lot of fretting over nickel and diming. Now, if one person is always ordering twice what anybody else is getting, there could be a need to discuss the situation and come up with a resolution. We tried the Splitwise App with friends last summer, and it was more trouble than it was worth, and got scrapped by Day 3. Split the check equally, and enjoy the camaraderie, and don’t focus on who got the beef instead of the chicken.

Craziest part of this thread is where I learned that Canadians don't have access to Venmo...

AMann, you sure gave way more than you got, helping those ungrateful people have successful “solo” trips. They owed you Big Time, and couldn’t even give a thank you, let alone treat you to a dinner, pay for gas, etc.

Hope your next caning trips have just a good outdoor conditions, and at least you won’t have those others dragging down the experience.

It is amazing to me the responses this has received and the invaluable advice. I am going yo post this as two separate replies. one General and one more personal.
Let me start by saying that while I am in this boat, I really posted this topic not so much for advice for myself (which i do appreciate and will address in my next post) but as a general topic. I was thinking about these various issues and realized we had not had a recent post on this topic so i started one.
I used to create operations procedures and the manuals to support them and even now i am the eetail oriented guy at my work so i have a tendency to WAY overthink an issue and a big tendency yo look for guides ir to at least consider the questions that need to be asked. Hence this topic.
And i think we have a LOT of useful advice and i hope it keeps going for a bit longer.
As one of the posts above pointed out with a ranking/voting system it is very similar to what i have used. Both with my father and now my Friends. In one case with my father it resulted in a completly different trip then what we started off talking about. We started talking about A trip to Germany and Switzerland and ended up going yo London, Paris and parts of France because that is where our interests ran. (we did the original trip on our second trip)
My system is as follows,
Without using a guide book each person does a list of what they think of when they think of Europe. List everything. German Beer and Soft Pretzels, Big Ben, Parisian cafes, Black cabs, the alps, the Rhine etc. Then we create a master list with each mention getting 1 point then tally the total. This usually narrows the trip a bit. If everyone picturing London and Paris and few picture Austria that helps narrow the area for the trip. It also helps see how well you get along as far as vision goes.
The above can be skipped if you know where you want yo go. But you may be surprised at the results and end up someplace unexpected.
Once a rough trip location(s) is worked out. (or you just pick it) Say London and Paris. we each create another list and rank things as , “Must see or the Trip would be ruined”…, “Really want to see” and “Would like to do”. Give 3 to the Musts, 2 to the Really wants and 1 to Would be nice.
Then if you made the first list you give 1 point to each location that is in your chosen area that was on the list and 2 points for anything on the list that all the group listed. now add all the points together.
Highest scores to the top.

Theoretically you may have to add bump up a site if it is someones true must see ir the trip is pointless thing but in my (limited) experience it always makes the list anyway..
Then when planning I try for 1 MUST See, and one Really want to see per day. (assuming it is not a full day to do the must see) then I add one “if we have more time” that can fill up the day if we have time for it. Also I list “in the neighborhoods” as things to do time allowing.
So for example in London I had a day that looked as follows.
West Minster (must see) British Museum (Would be nice) And Night Bus tour of London as a tgird if we were up for a long day) Added in a bunch of things near Westminster such as the War Rooms.

The Day itself worked out as. Early rise and entry to Westminster walking past the masked/hidden Elisabeth tower. Then after that we walked around the park and meandered our way to the War rooms. Then we walked past the intersection where you can sort of look down Downing Street, walked past a street protest in fron of some Embassy and on to Trafalgar Sq where we had Lunch near the Naval Arch (or whatever it is called) Then off to the Museum, where some nice security guy took pity on my tiered father and let us bypass the line for security.
After that we had dinner on our way back to the hotel. Dad was to tired to do anything else that night. But the Next night we did the Night Tour Bus.
So this allows fir flexability.

Ok I really didn't start this topic to get advice for myself (but i do appreciate it and will consider it all) So I was more then a bit vague in the original post.
So I will add a bit more. I am what is generally referred to as being “on the spectrum” so I have my “quirks” and social situations can be stressful or awkward for me. Their are days i cant bring myself to reply to forums. And others days i cant even read the replies to my posts. It is what it is and i have learned yo live with it. But it means that just the thought of travel with people i don't know for anything longer then a few hours or maybe a day trip makes me physically ill. And as other have pointed out my Traditional travel companion passed away (it will be two years this month. :( ) So going with people I know is a huge benefit for me. As it is either that or travel on my own or stay home.
As for my friends mother. I have known her for about 35+ years and call her “mom”. So yes i know her pretty well. And frankly we probably get along better then she does with her Son on a lot of days. So i am not too worried about her. I have taken a few trips with her and she spent a full week in my house after a bad storm damaged their house.

I have taken a few trips of different length with my buddy and we used yo ho up to my parents Cottage all the time in the past.
In general we all are compatible on scheduling such as when to get up, how fast to get going, how long for lunch etc. We pretty much agree that on this trip with a few “cultural exception” that food is much like fuel, it allows you to keep going but don't want to spend a lot of time refueling. But a cafe in Paris a bear hall in Germany etc. are a different matter.
So short of actually spending three weeks in Europe we have probably seen how we will get along as well as we will ever know without actually doing the trip. The great unknown is how well either of them (or me for that matter) will hold up on a three week trip.

My reference to (trying to help) is more to do with the length and speed of the trip. As it is a trip of a lifetime it has extend to about 3 weeks and I think for them it may be a bit long. For me it is a good length and about my typical speed I traveled with my 86 year old father. (he was in extremely good shape for his age until his illness so he was not a good measurement)
As for the Two vs one. That is not really an issue as if I go My sister will go with us (she has traveled a lot but not to Europe) and i have traveled with her in the past. Generally we get along well when traveling.
Tour guide issues. yeah i expect I will be lead on much of this as well as organizer. My sister has given me cart-blanch and we have a planning day scheduled for next week to finalize our list of hotels and the rest if the schedule, This will determine a LOT as costs and locations will effect the trip. Once i see that i will decide.

Costs, My friends have iften in the oast repaid me fir favors with buying dinner or what have you. And if we go see a movie we often split it so that one buys tickets and the other buys the snacks and then swap out the next time. so I suspect that wont be a huge issue. And my sister is talking about paying for my flight as a thank you for all the work planning this trip.

As noted in my first post, some of these questions apply to my trip and some do not.

I do think if i go i will have a heart to heart that if anyone has trouble keeping up or needs a day iff that the others are not obligated to abandon their trip/days plans.
And i will consider all the posts so far on this topic before i make up my mind.

For various reasons we can not pull the trigger on this trip until Early to Mid April. But i want everything finalized (as far as plans go) by the end of March. giving everyone a week or two to decide. The trip would most likely be in Sept. Like trips i have done before.

Anyway thanks for the great advice.

As a previous poster mentioned, do things locally first. Just going out to dinner with potential travel partners can tell you a lot about travel styles. Are you able to decide mutually on a restaurant without sacrificing too much of what you’d like? Is there flexibility on what time you eat? How do they treat the staff? How do they split the check? What are their feelings on alcohol consumption and how is that paid for? These questions all come from previous experiences that have let us know whom we could successfully travel with.

How they treat the staff turned out to be a bigger issue than anticipated. We blamed it on travel fatigue, but one friend still doesn’t know how close she came to being chucked overboard by her imperious treatment of staff.

Other friends insist on splitting the check down to the penny. We’re not traveling with them. We prefer to just split 50/50 and figure it all washes out in the end, although we’ve weeded out the ones that want to spend an excessive amount on liquor. Our travel clock is ticking, so we try not to stress about exact fairness.

It’s been a great thread and reinforces why we are selective about whom we travel with. It goes both ways. I’m not offended if someone doesn’t want to travel with us.

@ Douglas. Thanks for coming back and posting an update. It seems to me that you are on top of this situation and have thought through a great deal of it. I'm really proud of you for making plans to travel with new companions and moving forward. It is so hard to lose a loved one. I'm pretty sure your father would be happy to know you are still traveling.

Patty, one can learn almost everything they need to know about someone based upon how they treat service workers. Few things in life are more immediately revealing about character. Being tired or stressed is no excuse to be disrespectful.

@Douglas, thanks for coming back and filling us in. I expect it took a lot of time to do so, but we appreciate it.
It sounds like you know them well and you have gained a lot of advise on how to approach the future discussions.
Though I know no-one likes to waste money, if they run out of steam on a 3 week trip, they can always come home early, or decide to just hunker down in a city for a few days and meet you and your sister in the final city for flight home.
Discussing your concern with them lets them know you care and gives them time to accept or come up with solutions if they start to get fatigued. Staying in the hotel and missing a day of sightseeing may be all they need to do torest up for the rest of the trip. Travel fatigue is real, though may be hard to comprehend if you haven't suffered from it. Working in something familiar into their schedule may also help. If local custom means late dinners and they are used to eating at 5:30, consider hacing lunch the main meal (Spain has great menu del dias) and just picnic or snack for dinner. I often pick up a bit from the bakery and deli and just eat in my room with my feet up.

Thanks for the update, Douglas.
I would suggest that for the benefit of all three of you, as it is quite a long trip, to have every third or fourth day a rest day with absolutely no definite plans or reservations for anything.
That way, everyone gets to rest, or gets alone time, or goes off to do what only they fancy doing that day.

douglas, it sounds like a great trip is in the making. There should be good things for all three of you. Hopefully it’s not too much work for you, and they get everything they hope to see and do, energy and logistics allowing.

The companionship should help everybody, on some level.

Thanks for the update, Douglas.

It’s great that your sister will be joining you on this trip.

I like SJ’s suggestion to take a rest day every 3-4 days, and have no real agenda.

Wishing you a wonderful trip!

I only post on this Forum when I am actively seeking advice, aside from trip reports. So I don't really understand posting for the sake of starting a discussion, especially when one asks specific questions, giving the impression that the OP is genuinely asking for input.

"Estimated Profit," Douglas may answer otherwise, but I saw his original post as one of a more general nature, but then he gave the example of a more short-term situation he will be facing (the trip with the friend, his mom, and his sister). But, I also saw this as an opportunity to get some ideas on how others have handled traveling with others, so he can be putting some additional thought into (and be better prepared) for any future situations (should others invite him to travel with him, or he decides to invite others to travel with him). It is clear that his father has been his long-time travel companion, so it makes all the sense in the world to me for him to get a discussion going on how others do things and ideas for him to consider as he goes forward with an upcoming trip decision and other (possible/likely) trips in the future.

I think it is an excellent thread that he started, and then, of course, many of us then were curious what was ultimately decided or how he was "leaning." He kindly updated all.

The responders to the post also shared some points I had not considered. When people with a common interest (in this case travel) share experiences/ideas, etc., we all come away a little more enriched for hearing and learning from what others encountered and/or how they handled it.

The discussion he started could be very helpful to someone who recently lost a partner and wants to begin to venture back to travel or simply going out to dinner with someone or a group of friends. The discussion can apply to various circumstances that have might pieces of unknown that will be faced by a participant. Many might just jump in and figure it out as they go, and others like to think thru things ahead of time and be prepared for situations that they anticipate might come up. We are all different.

Douglas, I hope the trip is fabulous and the start of many future journeys for the "four-some" or sub groups thereof. I agree with the other posters that you dad would be very happy to see you (as Rick Steves' would say) "keep on traveling."

Douglas, I'm glad you have close friends and family to travel with.

AMann, if your friends had sprung for a commercial guided experience, i imagine they would’ve been a handful for the guide(s). I wonder if every detail about the camping hadn’t been spelled out to the nth degree in the contract, it sounds like they would’ve given the provisioned nothing but grief. But at least they would’ve had to pay for it.

Even Rick Steves didn’t do his early tours as a charitable service, and it grew to something big. I wonder if he’s ever gone with/taken friends on a trip, anywhere? And how did that go for everybody?

Some Random thoughts.

I have an old habit of starting topics on forum’s if I think of something that may be of interest even if it is not specific to me. That goes back to Dial Up BBSs and then the Pre WWW version of the internet. The reason is that a Forum is a living thing. If it is popular and active it will grow and flourish. But if it gets to slow it will die off as people will check it less and less often and the traffic numbers will drop so people will check it less often so it takes longer to get a response so the numbers will drop so people will check it less often… and so on. So I have an old habit of tossing out topics that may be useful. In this case I didn’t expect it to truly apply to me but a lot of the advice did and even those that didn’t were interesting yo read.
In my case I am not 109% up on social ettequite for the reasons stated elsewhere, so trying to understand what is considered “normal” is hard for me and any time I can get advice on it is a big help.

It is odd, i don’t think that I travel very fast. And my father even at 87 was able to keep up. But some on this forum seam to think what i consider a reasonable pace is too fast. (Currently another thread is going into that).

I understand the wanting to just split the bill evenly but as a person that just tends to eat less expensive stuff I can tell you after enough of these “even splits” that “just happen” to ALWAYS come out in favor of the other folks… it can be a sore spot. I have a few friends I would NEVER try that with and I have a couple that we loosely rotate and figure close enough. So it depends.

I also have some friends that I would NEVER travel with even if they picked up the whole tab as I know that on traveling we would not be compatible. Plus they have a different view on food. They will spend hours getting a “great meal” and I will crab something at a street cafe and watch the crowd and then go do or se something with the saved time. Neither method is better. But I would strangle someone if I had to spend that kind of time just to get food. My time in Europe is extremely limited and I don’t want to spend it in a restaurant.
Similarly sometimes I like good views from my hotel so my time in the hotel resting comes with a view if something I am interested in, I did this Neuschwanstein , Tower Bridge, the Eiffel Tower and the French Rivera in Nice. I prefer to stop in some tiny town buy a loaf of bread, some meat and cheese and some drinks then drive down the coast and find a place to park and have a picnic watching the surf. I chose the restaurant I ate on my one afternoon in Italy based on it being on the shore and we could look out at the sea.
But to each thier own. But some styles are just incompatible.

It is funny, I have been reading this forums for years and been a member for about 6 years or so. And thier is a group of members that kind of are like a modern version of Pen Palls. You don’t really know each other but you sort of recognize each other and can get vested in what the others are doing. Makes the group a little more welcoming.

Finding travel partners is very difficult, and I'm not about to travel with someone's mother. You know, three's a crowd.

I'm just fortunate to have married someone that's a great traveler and allows me to make all the travel plans on the ground. She is a master at finding cheap airfares, however.

My parents had the best travel deal. They traveled in a group of 22 which is large enough to get a small tour bus. They went all over the world--at very short notice. It was a closed club--only husbands, wives and their kids were allowed with the group. Most of the group were very wealthy so money was not an issue. They always had 5 middle aged married ladies on the trip that were very beautiful. And everywhere they ever went, every local man wanted to dance with them. They had a ball.

David, to quote Johnny Carson, "That's some wild stuff" right there.

douglas, good post. I like the somewhat edgier threads as they're more interesting, but alas they're often deleted. Life isn't all unicorns and rainbows.

As for energy, well, me and the Hot Wife are 62 and are on-the-go when travelling. Neither of us likes to sit around too long, and with limited vacation time we're always moving. I'd attribute this to diet and exercise. There is no magic pill. Use it or lose it, especially as we age. As Clint Eastwood said, "Don't let the old man in." Very true!

I will admit I haven’t read this entire thread, Douglas, but in just a relatively quick scan, I must say I greatly admire your organizational skills and opening up this topic in general. As I seem to end up being the tour “guide” whenever I travel with family or friends (a role I am no entirely comfortable with), I would love for you to plan my group trips for me! I love the idea of assigning numerical values to what you each want to see and do and then winnowing out those ideas with lesser values. Thank you for starting this post and I am appreciating all the various responses. Now, to go back and really read all the posts!

In general i enjoy the planning. My personality is such that i like to plan. I make plans (buildings) for a living. so planning is something i just do. If anything i over plan.

I had almost as much fun planning my trips as taking them.

Douglas, it really is great the conversation that your topic has opened up, and all the different elements that people have highlighted. It's a very meaty discussion, with lots of food for thought !

I have been thinking about this a bit because my niece graduates from high school in June, and I told her I would bring her to Europe for her present. But of course i am nervous about it ! We have a blast when we travel together with her parents and sister -- but what about the two of us on our own ?? She is a really good-natured young lady, but can she really put up with me for 10 days or so ?? This is all outside my own experience !

Anyway I have enjoyed reading everyone's contributions and thinking about how some friends can be good travel companions, and some people you adore can be horrible to travel with. I had one friend who I love very much who I was sure would be a pain to travel with - she was a delight ! And a friend who was an experienced traveler but when we traveled together drove me crazy. It's so true that there are so many things to consider ! And maybe not all knowable ? Or maybe I didn't do my homework (assessing and discussing and setting expectations) well enough.

So i said i would update when i figured out if i was going.
So..
We all booked our flights this week.
we had a few frank conversations about various issues and have a theoretical understanding. if things go sideways we can split into two sections and go from there.
So i am reasonably confident and i have back up/contingency plans.
We will see how it goes. I will update in Oct and let you know if i need bail money or a lawyer. :)
Or if any of us are still talking yo each other.

Good luck! I hope all goes well. My daughter, her boyfriend, and boyfriend's brother and mother got home this afternoon from Dublin. They were all heading there separate ways for a break from each other. I'm looking forward to the stories.