Bucket List vs Buddy’s List

We like to travel to Europe with others, friends and family. We rarely spend the whole time together though when we go for 3-4 weeks. We may start out together in a place we all want/need to go to then split off for the remainder of the trip. We may go for various amounts of time and fly back to the US at different times. I could see you and your friends trying this for a future trip but may not for every trip as they become more comfortable with European travel. Maybe start in a city you do want to return to (London, Paris, etc) and show them the ropes of public transportation for getting around then leave them to fly to one of your bucket list destinations, maybe Rome for some time in Italy. It might be a good way for you to return to Europe with companions and to branch off on your own to see some of your bucket list places on the same trip.

It’s pretty easy for me to say no if people want to go to places I’ve already been and don’t care to visit again.

Many of my friends who don’t travel, due to being intimidated I guess, often want me to go with them somewhere, usually to cities and countries I’ve been to more than a few times. I don’t bite. I just say I’m not going there but if you want to see X, you can join me if you like.

Perhaps you could share with them some of what's on their list, and see if they're interested. Perhaps you could, for example, all spend a few days in London before going exploring UK ex-LON? (Or hit the ground running outside of London, and send them back there for the end of their trip, while you... Continue into the Scottish highlands or something.

I was going to give a very similar reply to Mona. Do part of the trip with them, and then part of the trip on your own to the places you have not seen. As it sounds like they want to see a lot of major cities, perhaps starting with them, and then meeting again at the end to fly home would work.

I'm very sorry for the loss of your Dad.
A similar travel thing happened to me in 2019.
My really good friend asked if I would go to Italy with her as she'd never been.
I've been 11 ties and have seen quite a lot, but not all.
So of course, she wanted to go to a couple of the big spots, such as Rome and Florence, as she wanted to see art, in particular some Caravaggio works.
As I love planning, I found out what her must see's were , then planned around it.
In the end we went to Rome, Naples, Lucca and Florence.
It was a bit rushed, but we had a great time!
So...don't discount going to places you've already been to, as you will surely see something new, and also see it differently through another's eyes.

We are facing a similar issue.....
My nephew and his wife want to travel to Europe with us but only want to go to Italy and just Florence Rome Venice
My sister and her new husband announced that they want to travel to Europe with us but just France.
After MUCH hand wringing this is what we decided... we have the list of places we want to visit so we are going to create an itinerary and share it with those family members ( well parts of it any way as we hope to have a week -10 days on our own) and if my nephew or my sister are interested in some part of it - great. If not …. well I'll help them plan their trip. Life is too short and money is an object so traveling back to places that we've been doesn't really make sense since we have other places we'd like to travel. So we are working on our itinerary for 2022 and will be "sharing" our first draft soon.

Good luck. Sorry to hear about your Dad :(

Donna

Douglas, I'm really sorry about your dad.

I'm coming from a little different perspective, but maybe worth sharing. First, I've got more travel years on me, and I've been incredibly lucky -- lived in Europe, married to someone who worked internationally and could often take me along, and made the most of many years of generous frequent flyer miles, so the bucket list is pretty well done. Now I get a huge amount of joy from showing friends, and now grandsons, places in Europe that I love. It's relatively easy for me, and it's stress-free from them, so I see it as a win-win.

If some of your friends' places are do-overs for you, IF you really loved the places, it's probably worth another visit. Revisits can be like old friends, especially with a few new things to see. If I'm planning a trip for friends, I always add in someplace that's completely new to me. Since a lot of my travel has been with my husband, I can also look at a trip with friends as traveling for half the money, since we're splitting car costs and hotel/apartments. (I'm not great at math, so there's some rationalizing there.) And like others have mentioned, maybe you can do a compromise itinerary. Maybe because of this plague year, going anywhere sounds good to me!

My only hard rule: I only travel with people I really enjoy!

I'd go with the hybrid trip as well...Do some starter days with them, then branch off on your own.

I'd also like to express my deepest sympathy at the loss of your Dad. You were so wonderful to give him as much travel as you did. It always sounded like you had a marvelous time together that enriched both of your lives!

Douglas, let me begin by offering my deepest condolences for your loss. I'm so very sorry.

Regarding your dilemma, I think Mona offered some solid advice about not spending the entire trip together, and as a fellow introvert, I totally understand how you feel about not wanting to travel with a group.

BUT, with regards to traveling with friends, please read this truly excellent post written by the oh-so-wise, but sadly departed Zoe:

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/general-europe/how-to-avoid-traveling-with-friends-mistakes

I can't adequately express how badly I wish I had read Zoe's advice before my husband and I agreed to travel abroad with friends in 2019 - to a place we had visited once before, but to which they had never been. Zoe's advice (especially #1, 3a & 4b) is spot on, but sadly, my husband and I had to learn it the hard way. The trip ended up being stressful rather than relaxing; we had to repeat things that we had no desire to repeat, and worse yet, skip things that were high on our list - so it ended up being a waste of our time & money. Even when we went our separate ways, it was hard to get the bad taste out of our mouths. For the longest time, I couldn't even look at photos from the trip because it just stirred up bad memories.

So please, think long and hard about committing to a trip like the one you describe.

Give yourself time to grieve, and when you're ready, tackle that bucket list, but do it on your own terms.

The more you travel, the longer your bucket list gets.

As for Europe, my favorite countries are in order
1)Italy, so much history, art and great food.
2)UK, love London and the beautiful countryside of England, Wales and Scotland.
3) Germany, Spain, France, Portugal and Greece are all super.
4) For scenic places, Norway is amazing (go on a cruise to the North Cape).
5) Don't forget Switzerland, Austria and Hungary. Also, Eastern Europe has a lot to offer.

Also, love South America, East Asia, Australia and NZ. An Alaskan cruise is a must.

While not explicitly stated I sense this is a 1st time for your friends. (?)

The advice to let them 'go do their thing' while you go do yours, probably wont work in practice as well as the theory. Or are they the type this would work for?

If not, then it might be best for you to take into account where they want to go and you plan your trip as you please, including as much of their wishes as you want to repeat, and present it to them as 'this is my plan for my next trip; do you want to join me?'. Give them more of a yes/no choice rather than an opening to a 'negotiation', which may not end well.

Good luck

Douglas, your typo "thus can help make the trip go smother" may say a lot about how you will feel traveling with your friend and his mother. Will they rely on you for most of the planning or will they be independent enough to separate after a few days as others have suggested? If they rely on you, will the relationship become claustrophobic and will you feel like a "third-wheel" instead of a trip partner?

When my sister-in-law and I went to Italy a couple years ago, she was so overwhelmed that I did all the planning. However, when I made reservations and booked city tours I would give her very narrow choices. It got her involved without being intimidated by the unknown. The trip turned out great without too many hitches. But I learned a lot about my SIL, especially that she is the least organized person I know. Knowing that now, I can plan accordingly and will happily travel with her again.

The opposite is true with the friend I was going to go on the Lippizaner tour with. Our interests are so different, that any other trip would be a disaster. She hates anything old, goes to bed at 7:30, gets up at 4, talks to herself and snores. As a friend I love her dearly but I can't see us travelling together.

I also wonder how you will feel when you see the same sites you and your beloved father visited. Will you compare that visit to your friend's? How will you feel about that? I think it is human nature to relive those cherished memories and your grief is recent. I also think your first trip without your father should be what you want to do, to enjoy the places you want to see.

Sorry to post again..but are your friend and his Mom in good enough shape for a Rick Steves tour? That is a wonderful way to learn to travel Europe! You could meet up with them afterward for a few days or before if they are choosing tour that starts where you are interested in visiting.

If it's a possibility, get them to watch some of his videos.

Carolyn!! That is a wonderful Zoe thread! Very sensible and a good discussion on traveling with others!

I hope to someday return to traveling however I an uncertain How enjoyable it will be without someone to share it with. I wonder If it will be as worthwhile.

Well here's your chance! My first thought is that in London and/or Paris you could send them off on a hop on/hop off bus, or a minivan tour for the first-timer's highlights, leaving you to enjoy more esoteric pursuits, and meet up with your friends for dinner. I suspect they might find your itinerary more interesting than theirs.

I generally prefer solo travel, but have a dear friend who I enjoy meeting up with in Europe. Our travel styles are different, but we enjoy similar sights. When I plan a trip, I often invite her to meet me for a few days in a city. During my time with her, the priority is being with her and doing things we both enjoy.

I like to stay longer in that city - after she heads home - to see things we missed or to wander at my own pace. I stay later, rather than going earlier to our meetup city, so that I'm not in the position of saying "I already did/saw that. Knowing I have that extra time minimizes any urge to push my own priorities.

The trip before and after our shared city is on my own. I enjoy the time with her as a pleasant change from the solo travel on which I thrive.

Your question reminded me of this post from September, maybe you can find some helpful nuggets in some of the comments.
https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/general-europe/ground-rules-when-travelling-with-others

Personally, there are few places I've been that I'm not willing to see again, but at the same time I too have a bucket list that I want to fulfill. Being open and honest before you even agree to travel with them is critically important to even determine if you'll be good travel buddies.

What on your Bucket List is on their First-Time-Wish-List, or is somewhere you’d like to have more time to see again? While their companionship could be welcome, how much would they be expecting you to be their tour guide? How willing are they to see lesser-known places in Europe, getting a “back door” trip to your preferred destinations, and then, with a trip under their belts, they could see the Big Sights on their second trip?

A good friend went with me to see a bit of Sicily 3 years ago, followed by several days in Lyon, France. She hadn’t been either place, and I was staying in France after she headed home. So that worked for both of us for a brief time, and I really still want to go back to Sicily.

Then, as you point out, Douglas, you’d be spending your money on this trip, and it sounds like you are wanting to use it carefully and strategically. Spending your hard-earned funds to largely show them a good time might be nice for the companionship. But while a trip to Europe, with or without friends, would be a good time, it could cost you more than you’d want to spend compared to setting your own itinerary. What cost/benefits would you, and they, derive if you showed them around Europe?

Another thing that I do when I am with friends in Europe is to arrive a couple of days before them, and definitely stay on a few days alone after they have gone back home.
My dear travel friend that I always meet up with in Italy lives in Scotland, but I live in Canada, so I need to get over the jetlag from here.
I make sure to arrive where we are staying, at least one night preferably two, before she does.
That way I can rest up, scope out the nearest grocery store and stock the apartment, then feel great when she arrives.
She is less organized than me, and I do all the trip planning, having always taken into account the things she wants to see, as I can see "my" choices after she goes home.

We always have our own bedrooms and last trip we managed to have separate bathrooms in a couple of places too, in apartment rentals.
So after she leaves, I have from 2 days to a week to be on my own, go shopping ,and not talk all day!

A great list from Zoe too.

In May 2019 I was heading back to Europe, Switzerland and Paris this time. My friend decided he and his wife wanted to go the same time as me. They wanted to return to Venice, it had been about 20 years since they were stationed north of Venice, then meet me in Paris, since they have never been there before. I helped them set up their sites in Venice as well as their transportation. For Paris we went over what they wanted to do and see, my friend said, "Whatever she wants". So, if what they wanted to do was the same as me, then we arranged those days to do them together. Items that were repeats for me that I did not want to return to, I helped them make the necessary arrangements for them. On some occasions I helped them get to the meeting point and met them when they were done if we were meeting for dinner. On arrival day in Paris I got them their Metro/RER Pass, since I was recharging mine, and got them comfortable with using the system. Of course, taxi's or Uber was an option for them as well. I chose to rent an apartment in Paris for the week, so they chose a hotel a few blocks from me. My friend's wife likes A/C. The trip worked out for us all. Both of them have asked me to help them with their 30th wedding anniversary trip. They are looking at just relaxing in seaside villages either along the Italy, France and or Spain's coast. That should be fun to plan.

This was the second trip with my friend. In 2014 he joined me for a week in Italy (Rome, Florence, Venice) before I headed to Paris. He was stationed in Northern Italy at the same time I was stationed in Southern Italy. He made it simple, "I'll see whatever you plan on seeing, but I need to pick up a purse at Louis Vuitton for Marnie".

My mother is making it simple for me as well. We both want to experience Christmas season in Europe, especially the markets. So all she asked is to see her granddaughter, my niece, while we are there. So Nov/Dec this year Amsterdam, Munich, Strasbourg and Paris it is. Hopefully, since it was cancelled, put on hold and moved from 2020.

If you do decide to go with you friend, hopefully you can do a combination of new expierences and repeats that interest you.

Thank you all for the kind words. It has been a very rough few weeks,

That being said to elaborate on a few things…
Yes this would be there first trip outside of the US/Canada.
We are targeting a Fall of 22 ideally but that assumes things open this year if not then 23. But I don’t want to push farther as my friends mom is not young.
They are starting to exercise and get in travel shape, how well they succeed remains to be seen and will DRASTICALLY effect the trip.
They are doing a lot of research into where they want to go (Berlin being the only given)
I will advise them on how much is practical. Fortunately they understand the limitations on what can really be done.
We have reasonably close opinions on things like Museums vs old buildings and such.
I have traveled with my buddy (state side) before and we have similar tastes in food, and lodging in general as such that shouldn’t be a huge issue. And his mother is basically my second mom.

I have gotten them to start watching Ricks videos (down side of that is he makes EVERWHERE look interesting…
I also bought them some of Ricks Guide books on places they have expressed interest in, and the through the back door book.
They are starting to get some basic travel gear (day pack, suit cases and what have you) as they have a few state side trips to take coming up and I told them to start traveling like they would in Europe. Small suitcases and with the stuff they would need there, Get money belts and practice/get used to them. That kind of thing. So they get used to how travel in Europe would work (as much as you can in the US). Plus it makes them understand that it is not all fun and games. I don’t want them getting over there to find out they really don’t like that kind of travel. They are typical US travelers. Rent an SUV. Stuff in as much as fits because why not you have the vehicle, and you only have to bring in one suitcase into a hotel you parked in front of (admittedly I tend to travel like that in the US myself because… why not, not like I am jumping on a train).

I have tried to stress that travel in Europe is noticeably different then in the US.

I personally enjoy playing tour guide. Years ago I was pushing my Aunt while my uncle drove a scooter and My parents walked as we toured the US AirForce museum (my uncle was ground crew on P-38s) I was playing tour guide and was rattling off a bunch of stuff (I am a military history buff) And at one point a lady asked me a question (not one of my family members). I replied without thinking a few more minutes go buy and someone else asked something I looked up and saw 6 people following us. Come to find out they thought I was a tour guide…. They were very embarrassed when my mother pointed out I was not.

My only real concern is that now that I am on my own I will have a bit more limited funds. Add in the issues related to the current pandemic possible effect my profession and I am thus concerned that I will have a limited number of chances to travel to Europe.

As for planning once the agenda is better worked out I will be the one to take what the agenda is and put it together. But I enjoy that as well. Even if I don’t go with them I will still do much of the actual planing (working with them and giving them options)

I think the trip may turn into more of an Italy trip, Fly into Berlin then maybe hit the Rhine and a castle or two heading south But basically spend the rest of the time in Italy. As there are only so many things you can do in even 3 weeks. So this may or may not change. If it is mostly an Italy trip then I have no issue. As Italy is a large part of my bucket list. I just want to start getting my own thoughts in a row. And your advice is part of that.

I hope this turns out to be a case where our interests overlap enough to work out well. And I have unfinished business in Paris. (I will get to the top of the Eiffel Tower SOMEDAY). And

I should point out that while never officially diagnosed I have many indications of being on the spectrum (very minor for the most part) and part of that includes a few quirks such as plans for every possibility I can think of , and massively over thinking things. As well as some social anxiety that makes the very idea of travel with a group of strangers uncomfortable for me.

These issues have an advantage when planning something like a trip. I have plans within plans and alternatives to all those plans. And a plan for how to modify it all on the fly if needed.

But as a result I tend to do things like over communicating as I have to address all the possibilities…
I also drastically overthink things. Like perhaps this whole topic. As these things probably will work out.
But I have to have my plans ready…
Anyway once again thanks for the suggestion and ideas.

It sounds, douglas, like you’ll have pre-planned things so that the trip will go well for everyone. You’ll get to show them a good time, you’ll get to see and do many things on your bucket list, and they’ll have been able to prepare for it so that all of you have a rewarding experience, with fewer problems than if they were going, unprepared, on their own.

If you don’t need to explain every contingency that you’ve planned for, just let them know that you’ve got backup plans, and not to worry. If some issues crop up, you’ll have devised a solution. They don’t need to stress about potential disasters, and you don’t need to devote lots of time before the trip sharing every detail about your Plan B, Plan C, Plan D, etc. Less stress for all, but you’ve got your bases covered. Save money in some ways, to allow more money for other things on your trip.

Have a great trip, carrying on where you and your father left off. On the way from Berlin to Italy, might the three of you hit Munich, too?

One thing I've found helpful when traveling with others is to agree to be apart for some or most of a day . . . most days. Even when we agree to a museum, it's often better if we wander independently and meet up at an agreed time. We may end up spending most of the time together. We may start together, then split up and meet at a restaurant or back at the hotel before going to dinner together. Or if your budgets aren't in sync, you can skip some meals with them and "eat on the cheap."

Allan, that "ground rules" post is excellent! Thanks for the link.

My husband and I are the experienced travelers in our family. After our first trip to Paris and Italy, family members really wanted to go, but had no idea where to start. So we booked a package deal to Paris, Venice, Florence & Rome. The hotels, flights and train travel were part of the package. That took some stress off me, because choosing the right place for 10 people is stressful.

But the daily activities, getting from place to place on the metro, where to eat, etc was up to me. My husband narrated the trip using Rick’s walking guides. Let’s just say getting everyone out of the hotel in the morning was a challenge. Then some people wanted to eat cheap and save money for shopping, while others wanted nicer meals. There is soooooo much that varies in individual expectations for what a “vacation” means. It ended up being very stressful and not being much of a vacation at all for me. By the end of the trip, my husband and I would tell the others: “We’re leaving at 8am tomorrow to go to the Colosseum if you want to join us. Otherwise we’ll see you back at the hotel tomorrow night.”

If I was to do it again (which I won’t), I would set clear expectations, including budget, how much luggage to bring, etc. Then set an itinerary in advance, including out-the-door times and costs. If they choose not to go with the plan, they’re on their own for the day.

After that, I decided life is too short to keep returning to the same place. BUT, 15 years later we did end up returning to Paris and Venice (3rd time each) with our kids. Returning to some of our favorite places felt comforting, rather than stressful. We revisited some favorite sights and restaurants. We didn’t try to see everything, just a sampling of our favorites.