We Can Do Better - Eliminating Clique Behavior

Other recurring problems:

• Excusing poor behavior in the name of being correct or accurate.
• Making yourself out to be an authority at the expense of others.

On a related note to the post above, if you're one of those people that think that it's more important to be correct than to ensure that you are polite, guess again.

Your good advice or correct information is meaningless if doing so disrespects others or cuts them down. I can't tell you how many times I've had to deal with this in the last 6 months. People have zero interest in participating in a forum if they think someone else is going to comment negatively about their post. Everyone's here to help each other, and it's just flat rude when you forget that. You can share your good advice and correct information without calling someone out for something you find to be wrong. This isn't debate team. Everyone thinks their advice is right. And I will stand up for everyone's right to give their respectful opinions and advice, even if they're wrong from time to time. That is what does the most to encourage participation so that OPs can get what they need. Those who "justify their nastiness as just providing the truth" is narrow in purpose at best. How we actually need the forum to work means giving the right info across thousands of questions. Our forum gives the best info when we make it a comfortable place for all to participate.

I'll allow for replies, but I'm hoping we can push comments in a new direction from how I've begun this thread. I've needed to identify the problems, but the purpose is not to rant about those problems any further.

I'm hoping the theme for any replies can be about what we can do better.

Kindergartners need reminders from time to time to adjust their behavior.

Most of us are like kindergartners in this regard. Thanks for the gentle correction; I can frequently use them! (Just ask my wife.)

Very well stated, and unfortunately needed.

I'm hoping the theme for any replies can be about what we can do better.

I would suggest:

It's the OP's trip, not yours. Provide the information they're asking for, not what you would want to do. If they are clearly on the wrong track, gently point out potential pitfalls.

Provide facts, not unfounded opinions or hearsay. If you don't know, don't guess.

Ask yourself "How would Rick Steves respond"

Thank you, webmaster for these much-needed reminders. I have long valued the RS forum as being a friendly and inclusive space and would like us to get back to that.

As you suggested, can we please assume positive intent in original posters' intentions? And if we don't think their intent is positive, it is okay to move on and not respond.

Maybe the Golden Rule of the Forum should be the same one as on the tours: "No Grumps".

-- Mike Beebe

Webmaster, thank you, I have asked recently few questions and I don’t get an answer, rather I get a negative response on why I would want to do that, this or what…. Thank you for steering (or trying to) the RS forum populace back to where it should be. Informative, friendly, guiding and satisfying in regards the answer of the OPs question, yeast, how do we do this?

Thank you. Tone is harder in written form compared to spoken. Staying with factual info is what we are all here for.

A Webmaster’s work is never done, and it’s clearly not about just dealing with Spammers. I wonder if the OP mentioned above will ever return and give this Forum a second chance? I hope that everyone in the future gets helpful information in a useful manner.

Thanks to the RSE Web crew and other staff for making travel easier.

This forum is filled with passionate, knowledgeable, sharing folks. There is great expertise. Almost all of the time, this forum is helpful. I know I learn a lot.

The flaws in communications are amplified on social media sites. There is no instant, real time feedback to let the responder know that what they perceive as friendly or funny or helpful or brutally honest is being taken as rude or mean. I know my humor fails; and when I think I’m being funny sometimes I’m just being taken as jerky.

U of Washington professor Carl Bergstrom writes “As I've often said, social media is an outrage engine. Not only are people willing to behave in ways they would not face-to-face, but users and algorithms alike learn that conflict, not compromise or conciliation, is what drives traffic.”

We all can do better. I know I can.

But I still maintain this place even with its occasional flaws is really pretty nice still.

Thank you Rick Steves staff. I know keeping this place going is work and tiring. You are appreciated.

Thank you Webmaster!

I think I wrote the last response on that thread before it was taken down. But I'd like to repeat what I said there:

If you aren't adding value, don't comment.

We're all here to learn. If you have something to share that helps others, that's when you should respond to a post.

We should all listen more and react less.

Thank you for articulating this issue so well. I've honestly cut back on my time on the RS forums in recent weeks because of this sort of toxic ambiance. Hopefully there can be a course correction!

Thanks very much for the comments thus far. I was feeling beaten down by everything from the weekend. I'd like to respond to two of your replies, namely "If you aren't adding value, don't comment" and "Provide facts, not unfounded opinions or hearsay. If you don't know, don't guess." I want to soften those approaches a bit.

Part of building online communities like this is navigating grey areas. "Stay on topic" is guideline #1 for many good reasons. However, if you aren't sidetracking a thread and you're otherwise within guidelines, there's nothing wrong with a comment here or there. I participate in another forum in which jokes are regularly cracked about whatever the topic is, and yet the main direction of the discussion isn't lost. That's not the vibe here and that's perfectly fine, but my point is that I'm not trying to force this forum to be - strictly - questions - and - answers - or else! This is the long way of saying I don't quite agree with saying "don't comment," especially when the notion of adding value will be subjective to varying recipients. I occasionally get a new forum member that thinks I should reprimand someone because they gave an answer they didn't need. No! As you can see, the pendulum can swing both ways. I just want us all to be our genuine selves that do our best to be helpful to one another in this travel advice format... while being aware of your tone, cliquish behavior, and guidelines.

Re "provide facts, not unfounded opinions or hearsay," while I understand your intent, be careful with that approach as it is the source of most behavioral disputes that we moderate. Many forum threads here are entirely about sharing opinions. I've seen too many "my opinion is better than your opinion," "my facts are better than your facts," arguments over the years. Person A's direct travel experience is what Person B finds to be unfounded opinion because B is a local and knows that the train serves a route for which A recommended to take a bus. 💣💥 There are many other ways to remix that scenario across travel topics. The OP and others reading along just need to be presented with the advice from both people so that they can make the best decision for themselves without being distracted by behavioral issues. (If someone is just making up answers and being unhelpful, please just report if for review. It's pretty uncommon that someone comes here purely to screw around.)

I am choosing to do this publicly - not to call out individuals for their behavior

But you did buy replicating parts of the posts made by me and another forum member, anyone who had read the thread and taken note of each member's repsonse will know who you were referring to.

As for posting responses simply answering the OP's question and not offering opinions or alternative suggestions that will result in a very boring forum and actually make it less useful as a resource. A valid example was a post asking for the best way to get to Tangier from Spain. My reply was succinct and to the point but nonetheless answered the question. Others provided more detailed answers including information and opinion that the OP hadn't requested, what does the forum want, answers strictly confined to the original question or a more open response consisting of opinons, alternative suggestions, etc?

As for the original post that inspired this thread may I suggest that we do away with this ridiculous notion of "living like a local". I don't know what Rick Steve's intended it to mean when he raised it as an approach to travel but it's nonsensical and people slavishly following RS's guidance will frequently make reference to this approach only to find responses from some forum members highlighting how ridiculous it is. If the forum is quite happy to allow such posters to believe that they can travel to some village in Italy, Spain, Greece etc and spend a week or so living like the locals and we're all expected to nod along and refrain from telling them that their illusion is going to be rapidly shattered upon arrival than that goes completely against the idea of a travel forum where experience and advice is shared. Personally, I'm not going to do that, I'd much rather people realise their expectations, if they take offence at that then so be it. What I wrote wasn't offensive, it wasn't demeaning and it didn't breach any guidelines, it was factual and served only to inform the OP that her intention (as described in her first post) was not realistic. Isn't that how travel forums are supposed to work?

It's the OP's trip, not yours. Provide the information they're asking for, not what you would want to do.

Absolutely! "Hike you own hike". Respect the OP and answer their questions.

It's a bit silly to get upset at "live like a local". It's just a colloquialism a shorthand. I know when I'm traveling I'm not living as a local, my favorite part of London has very few locals living there. But when someone says they want to "live like a local" I take that to mean they want a less touristy, less commercial experience. I take that to mean they want something like to be able to go to "the" café where the retired guys are waiting for the doors to open first thing and they tell their same war stories over coffee, then the student rush follows, and everyone is a regular. Or they're wanting to stay in a small B&B in the middle of everything, not the cookie cutter big box hotel at the edge of town. For a moment in time that visitor just wants also to be recognized as a regular. There's nothing wrong with that, nothing to take offense at, and no illusion to be changed. I don't have to buy into the concept to give someone the benefit of the doubt, and to simply answer a question and provide them to tools to take their trip, not mine.

I agree. I take ‘live like a local’ to mean spending a few days in one place using the local shops, cafes and bars rather than rushing from major tourist site to tourist site where you just come across other tourists. I think we’ve probably all had this type of trip where you get to find a favourite place for coffee etc. Nobody would think they are literally a local but you do get to see and feel the rhythms of the place and understand a little bit more about what it might be like to live there.

I agree about what "living like a local" means and intrinsically understood the meaning of the OP in the post which is referenced.

Personally I see the ethos behind RS's original phrase coined many years ago. Since then with increases in tourist numbers it has become not as easy to find. But even in my heavily over touristed part of the UK it is not hard to find, if a little bit of time is taken, and thought given (especially for those who rent cars) to the itinerary.

However I don't know the particular European country concerned in the thread at all well, so had no meaningful input to give. And, anyway, the thread had by then turned too toxic. It just felt like everyone finding fault with each other with little useful information to the OP. You can tell when a thread is in deep trouble if the exact meaning of Community Guideline 2 is debated- new forum member versus new traveller.

The webmaster aka the “ref" has handed out some yellow cards and maybe a red one too, (Soccer/football is not my game so if I blow the analogy my apologies in advance.) The players should play-on and fans cheer-on and not get caught up on whether the ref got it wrong or not. The key message here is simply: do unto others as you would have them do unto you and take down a notch.

Time to protect the whole sport— them game— (the forum)— the business of giving aide to travelers. And not get caught up on whether somebody's notion of "living like a local" (mind you Rick and the poster never used that term) is dumb or wrong or antiquated.

Let’s just take down a notch and play on.

Rub some dirt on it, be nicer and get back in the game!

Thank you for this. I'll add another: enforcing RS orthodoxy I am a RS enthusiast. I like to travel like he does: light, close to the ground, in touch with real people. But not everyone is looking for this. Too often, responders reply with things like:

• why would you ever rent a car when there is a train?
• don't drive when you land in Europe. You're being dangerous.
• why would you want to waste your time THERE?

You can hear the snickers and "tut tuts" as these responders congratulate themselves on proving their travel superiority to the other cognoscenti.

This is all supposed to be fun and informative. Let's keep it that way.

I like to add a point.

Sure it is necessary for all to improve behavior. Point understood and agreed. Thanks for heads-up.

Why does the forum technology not support learning in the year 2024?

• Thumbs up / down from logged-in users to a post (once only)
• More differetiating feedbacks like "I second", "I like the answer", "Great advice", "Poor advice", ...
• Save most important posts to find them easy again for referring
• A general answers list for the top 10 questions
• Propose most relevant posts from last 3-4 years before a new post can be sent

Even older other travel forums deliver more functionality in the meantime. And in times of low / no code it is not such a miracle.

I would appreciate also a published list of next 10 updates / upgrades with voting option (user-centered development). I was not able to recognize forum improvements in form of improved functionality. btw: The ML functionality for posting is a plus of the forum.

Improvement is not a one-way street.

A long time ago, years, the RS WM wrote me informing how one of my responses was taken as being offensive by several other posters. My first response was defensive, then I stepped back and realized the opportunity existed to improve. By the string of the posts I recognized whom I had offended and PM’ed them offering an apology. Their response lead to developing better relationships and invites to meet and greet when visiting their home city’s. My point? Set aside the temptation to respond defensively and seek to learn how to improve yourself.
Travel is about embracing different perspectives and we can start with our engagement within the RS travel forum.

A decade ago the forum was a convivial Q & A session. Fascinating people populated the page and answers were short and to the point.

It has evolved and I dropped away completely and came back. I often regret posting now (annd I delete my posts when I feel I made a mistake) and particularly am exasperated with the super posters with tens of thousands of posts with expertise boosted by participation badges. Volume does not equate with expertise in all cases. Since I started living in Europe the inescapable fact is it drives me to distraction with the increasing posts that make Europe into a gigantic amusement park with best this, best that, authentic experience and so on.

The value of RS to my wife and I for seeing places has been inestimable…..the current value of participating seems to reflect the modern social media quagmire. The distant past of these forums was inspiring and it’s noble and hard work to reign in a disparate group now but I wonder what the future portends.

I would urge caution in adopting upvotes/downvotes and other features found on the likes of x, Facebook and so on. They will probably drive both engagement (time on the platform) and controversy.

Right now I believe is moment for a little less controversy.

But I think it's great folks are thinking of ways of improving the forum. Either way, contemplating improvements is always a good task.

I agree that thinking about this is necessary, and am willing to accept criticism and coaching. But I want to make sure I understand the Forum policies: Are you saying that an OP who lays out an itinerary with a hotel change almost every night and asks if they should go someplace else, should not be told that "I usually stay 3 or 4 nights in a base?" Are you saying that someone who plans to go to Pisa and not to Venice at all should not get an off-topic reply when they ask about getting from Rome to Pisa?

Tim, I think it's all about the language. There are ways to suggest some good travel techniques to new travelers without shoving it down their throat. I think we are all passionate about the way we travel and sometimes we (myself included) get carried away with the language we use.

For example, writing "You are going to be exhausted with that itinerary. You should drop half of your destinations and go here..." is a bit harsher than writing, "Hey, you've got some really nice destinations there, and I definitely understand you wanting to visit as many places as you can. Many of the members here, though, have discovered that you can have a more rewarding experience if you stay in the same place for 3-4 nights." And then give the benefits of that kind of travel.

Well written Mardee. That is part of the problem, we do not write as we speak. I’ve begun reading my responses before hitting the Add Reply button. Sometimes it doesn’t read as well as I think. Many times I’ve just deleted the post.

Thank you:)

Even older other travel forums deliver more functionality in the meantime. And in times of low / no code it is not such a miracle.

More functionality means more exploits. The webmaster here hasn't got time. Admin on a large phpbb site takes time to make it secure. I used to be on a lot of forums in the past, and I've seen sites lose access to whole domains through phpbb exploits.

The low code profile of this forum makes it quite light on bandwidth, allowing it to continue existing as overheads are presumably quite low to RSE.

I'm happy with how it is personally. I like the bare bones functionality and the fast loads on pages.

Webmaster, thank you for clarifying and softening my comment, "If you aren't adding value, don't comment." In trying to be succinct, my comment would be easily misinterpreted.

Lots of things add value that aren't direct answers to the OP's question. This is, as you say, subjective. An answer the OP didn't need might be exactly what another forum participant wanted to know. And humor can certainly add value.

I hope we can all agree that comments that make the OP feel "lesser" do not add value. Mardee, you really nailed it with your two ways of answering the same question.

Mardee for President!!

I think the way you are treated on a forum depends on what you say rather than post count. There's plenty of sub-1000 post folks who say some really smart things. I've never thought about it in terms of cliquey-ness until it came up here. I've never perceived that attitude to anything I've said.

Badges and displaying post count are standard on forums. Some forums reward high post count members with much more extravagant displays than here.

Interesting response from the webmaster and certainly not unexpected. This post of discussion did go off the rails early on and I think it did because the OP was a first time poster. It is very hard to determine when a first time OP is real and who is just pulling our legs when some of these questions are asked by a first time poster.

Probably the rule of thumb is to sift through and see if you can find the real question and ignore all the other nonsense like they want to delve into the lives of the local people. She actually just wanted a name of a city. I guess we should have just named cities.

I think the first response was worded a bit tough, but the OP did make that naive statement and it was responded to instead of naming a city.

Maybe we should be more careful readers and just ask first, "What does this OP really want?"

Lesson learned for responding to a first time OP or any OP. Answer the question only. If they solicit an opinion, well, give them one. Live by this rule on opinions, be direct, specific and non-punishing. Example, "Your itinerary has many cities in a short period of time you have allotted, you will be spending a lot of time checking in and out of hotels and traveling instead of sightseeing, if it were me I would cut down the number of cities on your list."

In the meantime between first time OP's, I'm sure we all will enjoy occasional banter about travel issues facing all travelers.

I just want to say that I hope that people don't stop telling posters about other ways to logistically do their trip than what they are proposing. My very first trip that I posted on this forum about was to Greece in 2018. I was told that it would be better to not visit Athens twice but to save all the days for Athens for the end. I had never even thought of doing my trip that way. I changed the itinerary and the trip was better for the change. I have since passed on the same advice to others planning to visit the Greek islands and Athens.

More recently I posted a question about going from London's Paddington station and Marylebone to catch a train out of the city. I did not see on my tube map from a previous trip a way to connect the two. A colleague had told me it was a 10 minute walk. Forum members told me it was more like 20 minutes and gave me several other options. I took the Bakerloo line which upon closer inspection was indicated on map. On my return on a Sunday, the Bakerloo line was down and I opted to walk as it was a nice day and I had plenty of time. It was a 20 minute walk!

Anyway, I think it is helpful to tell people options to what they are proposing, as they may never have considered them. People who want to drive may not have considered that trains may be easier for their itinerary. And those planning to drive after landing may not have ever encountered jet lag.

Gail said:

I can see that being the case.

Ah maybe I'm just hardened by being in communities where there's been a lot more rudeness, mental breakdowns online and huge flaming arguments followed by account deletions. I got interested in RSE through watching Rick's shows on Youtube and enjoying their wholesome nature. By and large I've found the RSE forums to be pretty civilised, but I can appreciate it hurting if people make your perfectly reasonable questions sound dumb. I'm usually on the other side, giving out information and subjective opinions, so I always try to be open to being fact checked or having my opinion countered.

Is this a clique issue? I'm not sure it is. There are posters who have thousands of posts who are courteous, friendly and helpful to everyone, new or not. And then there are others with thousands of posts who very often use an impatient or snide tone to any newbie-ish poster. I think it's the personalities of the individual posters.
But I'm not a prolific poster or part of any clique at all so what do I know. All I know is that the poor first time poster with the admittedly poorly explained trip idea didn't deserve to be responded to like she was, and it made me rethink my participation on this forum.

Maybe I'm just as socially oblivious and awkward online as I am in real life because I had no idea that there is a clique on this Forum. And when I compare this Forum to travel sites on Facebook I'm astonished by the differences in civility; this Forum is pretty tame.

As for improving personal behaviour, I do notice that I do a better job of responding to comments on my laptop with a real keyboard than I do when I'm typing on my phone or tablet. I tend to get frustrated with spellcheck changing my words on my phone/tablet and thus I don't proofread as well to ensure my words and meaning are well chosen. Does anyone else feel they do a better job responding depending on device used?

One suggestion to the webmaster or the powers that be: limit the number of times someone can post on a thread, maybe?

I have noticed on threads that go badly that some people post repeatedly, saying more or less the same thing, but ratcheting up and doubling down on the nastiness in the process. I saw that train wreck thread the other day, and I was horrified by how quickly it devolved into a bashing of the OP.

I try to post once on a thread - I am not always successful in doing this - but I make my contribution - and move on. At least that has been my more recent goal, I am sure I have older threads where I posted multiple times, but I have realized that is not always helpful.

The most helpful information for planning my trips has come from people who had been to those destinations recently, most - but not all - of whom had a relatively low volume of posts and thus no badge.

Agreeing with Gail:

Oh, and if we do want to talk about website changes, I would like to remove the badge system and number of posts.

I will add that I am very suspicious of some first-time posters. But I am also aware of this board's prohibition against accusing someone of being a troll. I have also learned that in perhaps as many as half of the first-time posts I respond to, it later turns out that there was nothing intentionally provocative about a suspiciously provocative question (like an absurd itinerary, or a controversial assumption, for example), and the OP was, in fact, a real traveler.

I'm not sure, but I think I may have been involved in one of these threads. So I'll offer this based on that experience; even if it wasn't specifically one of the threads in question.

If a poster asks for feedback and their first impulse is to get angry when they get respectful but "negative" feedback, I think that's on the OP. The "I only want to hear advice from people who think my plan is good" was an edit that was made to the original post - after people had responded. I found that philosophy baffling, but I shrugged my shoulders and went away at that point. The next day when I clicked on the open desktop thread it was 404.

Re: "Piling On": Maybe I'm not understanding the nuance, but IMO, Users echoing the opinions of earlier responses is something I find helpful. If one person says X, that's less convincing than when eight people in a thread agree with X. The more opinions, the better; even if those opinions are critical of an idea or plan

I would like to add that nauseous there could be clarification over reporting posts. The thread that led to this discussion was reported and I'm not sure why? It wasn't spam and I don't think they asked the question to be a troll.

I would also like to add that last week I spent 6 days in Orkney and fell in love. The locals were so friendly and I admire the simple life they lead. On thr ferries to the various islands, I conversed with locals and learned lots.

I also once stayed in a little town outside of Venice that doesn't get loads of tourists, though there are some. I frequented the same restaurant for dinner and the owner was thrilled when I asked for the local Italian menu, rather than an English menu with limited choices.

I'm currently on Skye and yesterday I had a great conversation with the server at a restaurant where i was having lunch and sge was very interested in what I'd seen and was so helpful.

Thank you Webmaster, for the post. I had also noticed an uptick in rather brutal responses. The temptation for snark is real, but I think most of us manage to employ a filter and manage it. Thanks again for all you do!

>”Re: "Piling On": Maybe I'm not understanding the nuance, but IMO, Users echoing the opinions of earlier responses is something I find helpful. “

Imagine this scene (borrowed from an ad). Mary Todd Lincoln is trying on a dress and she asks Abe “does this dress make me look fat?” If Abe had answered, “you look stunning but I like you in that blue dress even more”, then Mary Todd Lincoln would have changed dresses and everyone would be happy.

But honest Abe instead said “Why yes Mary it does make you look fat.”

“Piling on” would be like William H. Seward adding “Yes Mary it wouldn’t hurt you to eat less pie” and then Salmon P. Chase saying “it does not compliment your pear shaped figure.” Imagine six more folks agreeing with Abe while discussing how fatness is unappealing.

The Rick Steves forum thread was akin to that— except worse in that the OP was not even fat. And the first response was "I sorta interpret you as you being fat and I gotta say, well, hmm." And the second was like “if that first response is right, you should really put that piece of cake down. Like right now. You don’t need it.”

And the original poster got mad and said I’m out of here and you guys are losers! (Which is similar to what Mary Todd Lincoln said by the way.) And then a bunch of people said you’re the loser!! And those folks weren’t even in Lincoln’s cabinet. It was an ugly scene. [Shudders.]

Did I mention many people find my sense of humor off-putting? I might have to throw a yellow card at myself….

Imagine this scene (borrowed from an ad). Mary Todd Lincoln

That's actually helpful for me to understand the context of that thread since I didn't see it. Since the Mod mentioned a few threads, I had a different thread in mind where, even though none of the responses were personal in nature, they sure could have been "piling on" on the sense that everyone was giving advice the OP didn't want to hear. And then then the thread and her account was deleted. It fit some of the facts. I was moved to respond here because it seemed like such an overreaction

Anyway. Thanks for the response. I find your humor just fine, and in this case, instructive.

Did I mention many people find my sense of humor off-putting? I might
have to throw a yellow card at myself….

The analogy was brilliant, but.... I'll refrain from saying anything more because I'm behaving myself. I wish I could attend a travel meeting so I could debate the Webmaster's post in person.

This conversation led me to reviewing my history of forum questions and comments, searching for snark. I only went back for about a year (I bored myself after a while!), and I don't THINK I have been snarky. The discussion did, however, make me aware of how important it is to reread my replies and make sure they are helpful rather than hurtful.

I am on no social media platforms (except this forum), so I don't get the references to them, and their meannesses, nor do I understand anything about "phpbb" or "low functionality." I will probably go to my grave as a stranger to Facebook, TikTok, Instagram and even Whatsapp. I don't keep my cellphone with me everywhere I go at home, and I text my kids only to find out when it will be a good time to talk to them on the phone, or to tell them I will arrive at their home in x number of minutes or hours. I don't contribute to or follow Yelp either. (Luddite? Yes, in many instances. Totally incompetent with modern tech? Not so much.) Thumbs up or down reminds me too much of the "spectacles" in the Roman Colisseum, so I probably would not like to see it used in this forum.

Overall, I enjoy reading the questions and answers because I learn so much from them. Yes, sometimes I detect a smugness in comments, but I try to ignore that and dig for the real info and honest opinions. I appreciate the work of the Webmasters and also the knowledge that others have imparted to all of us here. It has been helpful as well as entertaining. (I just hope I can claim to have been the same.)

Here's my takeaway after reading Webmasters impasssioned plea/demand for decency and all of the 52 other comments. If Mary Todd Lincoln had simply walked out wearing whatever dress she wanted to wear, and said, "this is what I'm wearing, live with it" none of us would be where we find ourselves in trouble on the forum today! Of course when I reread it, it sounds like I'm blaming her...so again the written word can often be misconstrued...let's just give it our best going forward! I truly appreciate everyone's helpful facts, and often strong opinions. Just in the last month you helped me understand and pack the correct USB cables for our trip; find the right airline desk in real time; figure out a rental car, take a great WW2 tour and visit sites I hadn't quite thought about prior; and also in real time helpful suggestions making our connnection home after a very long flight delay out of Amsterdam.

I took part in the deleted thread, I hope in a positive manner and interacting with posters I already know. But to be frank, being myself a local, I found one of the statements of the original poster patronizing, namely: "We want to speak with the people and learn about their lives." I did not reply but I was waiting for exactly the kind of replies she got. If some of the replies were deemed not acceptable, please consider that also the question had not the best wording.

In hindsight, (always clearer) , when we read a new post that we MiGHT find "unsettling", perhaps silence is the strongest response- especially a collective silence???

I’ve followed this forum for a couple of years now but haven’t posted until the last year or so, following in the shadows to learn the culture and style of the board. I hadn’t read the offending post/replies and had mistakenly thought the Webmaster’s post was related to another thread that was also taken down the other day, related to an OP who had taken a RS tour and had commented on an unfortunate tour experience from a specific generational group. That thread also got pretty touchy and was taken down.

Two in a week. Webmaster was busy.

While I can’t quite describe it, to me there does seem to be, at times, a bit of a club atmosphere here. I suppose you could call that a clique. No real definition of who is in or out, but there is a preponderance of “we” and “our” in reply’s that could be construed as possessive and representative of some collective that has no real definition that I can find. High poster count? Undefinable and probably not, though I think it is subliminally there, likely unintended. A previous poster commented on the idea of getting rid of the post count and stars. Maybe not a bad idea. I believe Rick Steves owns this forum and through his proxy, the moderators, handle with a deft touch the day to day workings. Is there a representative group of “stakeholders” beyond that I am not aware of? Is this not a collective of individuals with travel interests?

I’ve gotten some great advice on this site and I value the insight and experience of both the regular posters and the novices on their questions and reply’s. I try to only comment on a post I have specific and relevant knowledge of, probably could work on that as I too have gone astray on sidebar commentary. You certainly don’t know what you don’t know …. yet experience can reign in your sense of exploration and overly bias your view of problem solving. Likely why children have a keen sense of asking the questions adults don’t like to answer.

I’m not a blogger, vlogger, user of Instagram, X or Facebook as I have an aversion to group think and from what I can ascertain, they can devolve into some nasty s*~t. This forum seems almost devoid of that, mild in comparison and run with a light touch, deserving of the kind, passionate and well meaning folks that breathe life into this site.

To me, this is a refreshing review of the Forum, for whatever it brings. From one of my favorite professional corporate “shrinks” I have had the pleasure of working with for over two decades- it’s the conversation that was waiting to happen. Thank you Webmaster for bringing it into the open.

there is a preponderance of “we” and “our” in reply’s that could be construed as possessive and representative of some collective that has no real definition that I can find

In my (our?) case, it’s me and my husband, so my postings generally refer to what we have seen, done, and experienced. Although I’ve met a couple of other posters while in Europe (nice people!), I’m not suggesting that anything I contribute is speaking for a group

Dont get me wrong, I know I am no saint and I screw up a lot as the Webmaster will attest to. But I am cognisant of rule number 2 even if I do forget myself from time to time (stuff in the brackets is mine)

Be unfailingly polite. [if you can not, then walk away and if its a
serious issue, report it] Comments that contain inappropriate
language, harshly criticize [calling soeone a troll because you dont
understand their point of view for instance], or disrespect others'
opinions [a lot of that was going on] are not allowed. New travelers
should be shown extra patience [someone who never dreamed of travel
might very well have no starting point and very well might not know
what criteria will drive their interests and as a result their
question might be "i have two weeks, where should i go" so work with
them on it --- sweetly] . If you can't write politely, this forum is
not for you.

Its a good rule and if followed threads dont go bad.

I try and remember that first, the person making the post is doing it in good faith and does not have ugly alterior motives, so if it does sound a bit "off" there are two ways to approach it, either know it wasnt meant bad and ignore it or very kindly point out how it could have been worded better to get the right concept across so the answers will be more useful. Remember forum post always sound more harsh then they were intended to so be careful how you word it.

As for content of the answer. To some degree I assume that if that people only ask questions based on their knowledge and that if they knew a little more their question might be different or there might be additional questions.

Sometimes I try and predict what they would ask if they knew more or might ask based on the direct answser and I just go ahead and throw out some thoughts that the original question generated. Yup, none of it is technically on topic, but I hope its helpful just the same.

Many, especially the new ones, might have the perception that the forum is a high caliber source of information and I want that to be the truth. So I do tend to push back too hard on gross generalizations, Ideologically or clickbait driven mantras or Western Europe biased answers. I need to tone that down or at least find better ways of experssing it.

And i suspect at least one member got the boot this week. That one member was a thorn on my side, BUT, I never like to see any member get booted. I hope the Webmaster finds a way to bring him back into the fold.

Soap Box going back to the closet now.

G-d bless and keep you safe.

Sorry Andrew, I am going to ramble a bit more. Forgive (insert emoji https://i.pinimg.com/736x/f0/62/85/f06285580eee12fb04c485ccaaa75146.jpg )

Over the years I have had the very pleasant opportunity to meet face to face with about a dozen forum members. It has been a blessing. A few I now consider to be among my dearest friends. I even think the one that got booted and I could get along if we met face to face. A few others I regret not yet having met but will try in the future as I am very impressed by them, and they include a few that are tough critics of mine … one in Paris for instance.

I have enjoyed the blessing of having been able to assist when they came to town and the favor has returned the favor to me on one occasion.

All these things made possible with an open mind and rule number two.

Thank you Rick, but mostly thank you Andrew.

This is just some random thoughts within the realm of this thread.

At one point someone posted they were usually suspect of new posters, and others have posted its hard to determine when a new poster is real or just yanking our chains. Why be suspect or be concerned if it’s a genuine question? At least give a new poster the benefit of the doubt, assume it is in good faith, and take them at their word, and its only a troll if one takes the bait and rises to the occasion.

There’s a running thread about “what do travelers do in the two months prior to their trips”, that was started back in March. I remember back then I was in a sour mood and when Jean started that thread, I just posted the quip, “get hit by a car.” It was honest and true, and the webmaster deleted my post. See the thing is not every post starting a thread is an invitation to share an opinion, commentary, or snarky quip. Sometimes they’re just questions seeking an answer and deserve a straight answer.

If a person starts a thread seeking help to plan and conduct their travels in a manner that is contrary to the way I would take a trip, who am I to dump on their thread with my commentary?

Thank you Webmaster.

Much needed, much appreciated, remarks.

At one point someone posted they were usually suspect of new posters, and others have posted its hard to determine when a new poster is real or just yanking our chains. Why be suspect or be concerned if it’s a genuine question? At least give a new poster the benefit of the doubt, assume it is in good faith, and take them at their word, and it's only a troll if one takes the bait and rises to the occasion.

We were all first-time posters. If you can't answer the question, but feel the need to say something, how about just saying welcome?

I hope thats the case so that they might choose to rejoin us.

I'm hoping the theme for any replies can be about what we can do better.

(1) on some other forums there are volunteer moderators that can lock a thread or remove comments. Depending on the website they moderate over the entire forum or just specific sub-forums. The webmasters here can't be around 24/7 but one advantage of having international contributors is some of them are present at unusual hours for the US. And volunteer moderators can give weekend coverage when much of the spam links are posted. The webmaster could then review actions during normal working hours if desired.

(2) this thread itself should be made a sticky for a week or two under "Recent Topics" on the forum home page so that more people see it.

(3) Assuming the software can do it, perhaps this thread or just a message about forum expectations could be shown to everyone on their next access to the forum to get the word out

on some other forums there are volunteer moderators that can lock a thread or remove comments. Depending on the website they moderate over the entire forum or just specific sub-forums. The webmasters here can't be around 24/7 but one advantage of having international contributors is some of them are present at unusual hours for the US. And volunteer moderators can give weekend coverage when much of the spam links are posted. The webmaster could then review actions during normal working hours if desired.

This site is moderated just fine. People are generally well behaved enough for it not to need much of a heavy hand and putting mod privileges into the hands of users is whole 'nother can of worms. This site represents RSE as a corporate entity so the only people really qualified to mod it are employees of RSE.

If you have used Bogleheads (financial services) newsboard, you would not argue for lay moderators. I have been cautioned more than once, and suspended for two two weeks once. In most cases, they were related to failure to recognize irony (and I usually write "(Ironica typeface)", or failure to read a complex grammatical clause.

But you could say that any negative comments on Bogleheads has to be about inanimate objects. You can't say "you are making a big mistake if ... ". You have to say "There can be negative results when a traveler .... ".

Here's a very famous bit of travel writing:

This is the California where it is possible to live and die without ever eating an artichoke, without ever meeting a Catholic or a Jew. This is the California where it is easy to Dial-A-Devotion, but hard to buy a book. This is the country in which a belief in the literal interpretation of Genesis has slipped imperceptibly into a belief in the literal interpretation of Double Indemnity, the country of the teased hair and the Capris and the girls for whom all life’s promise comes down to a waltz-length white wedding dress and the birth of a Kimberly or a Sherry or a Debbi and a Tijuana divorce and a return to hairdressers’ school.

(Of course, today, you'd be forced to say, reluctantly, that Joan Didion had "standing" to write this questionable material, simply because of her gender.)

We were all first-time posters. If you can't answer the question, but
feel the need to say something, how about just saying welcome?

I took a look at the first post I created; November 2018, I was looking for a restaurant in Chartres worthy of a 30th anniversary dinner on a Monday. I only got 4 replies, but also a couple of PM's and the responses were for the most part friendly and helpful. One of the PM's was from someone who actually went to the effort to call someone they knew in the area to try and dig up info for me. There was one strange PM telling me I had spelled Chartres wrong and "please correct it." I did and then they posted a thank you on the Forum but no actual help for the question. I didn't post another of my own topics until June 2019 and it was well received and thoughtfully answered. There's only one person I've ever been continually frustrated with but he appears to be gone now.

On that note I seem to remember a spat a few years ago that I missed but I believe it resulted in a red card. Anyone remember Doug.Spindler?

I also think this site is moderated fine. I don’t know if the underlying software supports this, but there are two features that I think would be nice:
1) the ability for the OP to lock/close a thread. Sometimes the OP gets what they need and doesn’t want any more responses. It would be nice if they could close their own thread.
2) the ability to quarantine (hide) a post until a moderator has approved it. It would be nice if a post that has been reported x times (e.g., spam) could be temporarily hidden until the moderator has reviewed it.

A couple people suggested removing the post counts. I find the counts helpful for quickly identifying spam. However, a ”Forum member since date” would serve the same purpose. I agree that the badges are unnecessary.

I always write my responses as if I am writing to my parents. That has been a good rule of thumb for me to ensure that I am tempered. Am I a saint? No, but I try.

Thank you so much, Webmaster. This forum at times does feel very toxic, and I appreciate you specifically providing recent examples of what creates that environment. Along the lines of your suggestion that a forum member could have replied “I like Assisi!” I think it would be helpful if folks tried to just answer the question that was asked and not add information that is irrelevant. I have been active on the Italy forum recently because I have trip coming up in June. Almost every time I ask a question someone replies with information that is not at all related to what I want to know. This happens to others too, and I imagine this is especially annoying for new forum members who may feel they are being lectured. No matter the question, replies almost include some favorites like “it’s hot and crowded in the summer”, “travel in the off-season” “fly into Venice not Rome because it’s easier to manage jet-lag” or “10 days is really not enough time for a vacation in Italy”. Please, folks, just respond to what is asked. No one wants unsolicited advice or your personal commentary.

Amy said:

This forum at times does feel very toxic

Oof... maybe I'm missing nuance here, but "very toxic" is a bit strong in my opinion. Like I said, further up the thread, maybe I'm immune through being on many other forums in the last 25 years with much more cut and thrust than here. I think one just needs to have a filter for the noise and pick out the information one needs, much as you would do if you're reading a news article with political bias or learning about rebuilding Honda 4 stroke engines on your favourite scooter forum.

No one wants unsolicited advice or your personal commentary

Eh... speak for yourself. Sometimes that can be quite valuable. In the web forum format, a thread is a place for discussion that people use to pass information in a conversational way. Members on the forum are just humans who are opening their mouths and letting their bellies rumble. Not professionals, unless they state they are. If your question gets answered succinctly and accurately as part of the conversation on a thread, then great. If it doesn't, try wording it in a different way and asking it again, taking on board things people may have said in response that may not be immediately helpful.

Laura said:

1) the ability for the OP to lock/close a thread. Sometimes the OP gets what they need and doesn’t want any more responses. It would be nice if they could close their own thread.

I feel the OP having that sort of control goes against the web forum protocol. Once the thread is up it doesn't really belong to the OP any more. It's property of the community. If you don't like how it turned out delete it and people will forget it very quickly. That has the problem that you lose information posted, even if it is off topic. I think locking threads is a mod privilege and goes against the nature of bulletin boards / forums to be in the hands of users.

2) the ability to quarantine (hide) a post until a moderator has approved it. It would be nice if a post that has been reported x times (e.g., spam) could be temporarily hidden until the moderator has reviewed it.

That sounds like a lot of work for the mod. It's largely one person I believe, who I imagine is part of a small IT team in Edmonds supporting a fair number of users there and remotely. I'm pretty sure there's much more important stuff going on with that.

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/greece/shout-out-to-greece-forum-contributor

A SUCCESS story......

sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is not an oncoming train

@GerryM - I wasn’t suggesting that every post be quarantined and reviewed … only those that have been flagged as inapprropriate (e.g., when you click the ”report” link) by multiple people. Some other forums do this and it can actually be helpful to the moderator as the offending post is temporarily hidden preventing subsequent posts that also get reported and need to be cleaned up. The moderator already has to review posts that are flagged, so this doesn’t necessarily add more work. Several other forums I have used have this feature. Again, it would really depend on the underlying software, so may not even be an option or may not be a feature the webmaster wants to introduce.

I wasn’t suggesting that every post be quarantined and reviewed … only those that have been flagged as inapprropriate

I see your point now, yes. Still, I bet there's a lot of posts flagged by users that don't need to be and automatic hiding of said posts would make threads quite a bit more disjointed. I've never seen anything really gratuitously offensive on here that needed hiding for decency reasons.

I'm always a bit wary of users suggesting features. Sometimes it's great, but 9 times out of ten the developer has already thought of it and decided not to do it right now. I've made acquaintances over the years with people involved in developing software and hardware for music that run their own forums. Users suggesting features [edit: for their sometimes free development projects, not their forum] can be a blessing and a curse.

I'm always a bit wary of users suggesting features

Having worked as a software developer for many years (including providing 2nd and 3rd tier Help Desk support), I never minded users suggesting changes. Some were impractical or would be poor design, but others were useful. We software developers are not the average user, so it is important to get a diversity of perspectives. The personnel maintaining the site also know their ”pain points” and can discern whether or not a suggestion will add value or be feasible.

A number of years ago when the RS website was reformatted, many users here were complaining. I suggested that they provide an ”all topics” view and made suggestions on the format. I got a very nice PM back from someone on the RS staff thanking me for the constructive suggestion, saying that they thought it would address a number of complaints, and that they were working on implementation. A few days later, the ”All Topics” view appeared here and I was so pleased that some of the things I suggested had been implemented. I think it is always worthwhile to suggest potential improvements as long as you aren’t offended if the I.T. professionals don’t agree.

I just want to add, I do appreciate the work that the webmaster does on this site. This is a well-run forum.

I'll be replying to a few themes in the comments. It's taking awhile for me to wade through everything (the forum is only a part of my responsibilities). Thanks to everyone for their patience and for their openness to change.

"As for posting responses simply answering the OP's question and not offering opinions or alternative suggestions that will result in a very boring forum and actually make it less useful as a resource."

I thought I was explaining this aspect already, but I'll try again. I'm not asking for a rigid format, and I'm not intersted in slapping hands if someone doesn't narrowly answer the question. Additional helpful information is in bounds when it's within guidelines. The problem is when it's laced with judgemental commentary or the rest of the behaviors this PSA describes. And while it's not the purpose of this discussion, know that I've pushed back on individuals that complain of others' behavior when an answer didn't precisely conform to their expectations regarding their question. I can tell when the answer - if polite in tone and contextually appropriate - could have been helpful to other OPs or others reading along. Back to the point, it's really all about context, approach, and tone.

If someone is asking about specifics for how to visit Orvieto, and the takeaway from a reply is effectively questioning the decision or negative commentary ("why would you go there?" or "don't go there, I'd go to San Gimignano instead"), then that's not appropriate. If you're answering the question with an additional suggestion that doesn't derail the direction of the thread, that's OK. E.g. "You can get up to Orvieto from a cable car on the north side of town. If your plans aren't entirely set, you might also consider San Gimignano as an alternate hill town with its famous towers and central gelato shop." See the difference? I've seen way too much that aligns with the former in recent months. That's part of what needs to be routed out.

If you're reaction to this PSA is to defend the information you're sharing, then you may need to be doing more to look at context, your approach, and tone.

Having worked as a software developer for many years (including providing 2nd and 3rd tier Help Desk support), I never minded users suggesting changes.

Fair point, well made again.

I'm just looking out for poor webmaster! I don't want anyone in Edmonds to feel overworked or the forum to distract from mission critical IT business of getting travellers out to Europe lol

I'm just grateful as it's a fun place to read and post with no ads, for free, courtesy of RSE.

Thank you, Webmaster!

And just a general comment that I really appreciate the forum! I have learned so much over several years from many of you, and I hope I have been helpful, too. I sent that OP a private message, listing some cities as she requested. Not sure if she ever looked at it.

There’s been a few comments that I have made where I considered an hour later how it might be interpreted and went back in and removed them, just in case. The edit button is always available. That tends to happen when I am in a hurry to answer and need to leave the house, etc., so I will stop doing that and just answer when I have more time to check my wording.

I am smiling at the comment above about telling people to stay at least three nights in locations. My trip report coming up in a few weeks will be a doozy for some to read! ; ). I think that’s what is so helpful with our local RS groups who meet in person monthly. We really see how each person looks at travel differently, and they’re all good, and we can learn from each other.

Thumbs up / down from logged-in users to a post

Seems to me the end result is the promotion of cliques. Posts don't stand on their quality, they rise and fall based on the popularity of the poster.

1) the ability for the OP to lock/close a thread. Sometimes the OP gets what they need and doesn’t want any more responses. It would be nice if they could close their own thread.

As much as I think posters should get to the point and answer the question, I don't think that OPs should be able to close or lock their own threads. Although after a period of inactivity maybe threads get locked

2) the ability to quarantine (hide) a post until a moderator has approved it. It would be nice if a post that has been reported x times (e.g., spam) could be temporarily hidden until the moderator has reviewed it.

No. Being able to quarantine/hide a post -- even temporarily -- by reaching a reporting/flagging threshold further promotes cliques and poor behavior. Unpopular posters then become victims of coordinated flagging campaigns.

One improvement I would like to see is a notation on a post when it's edited. It's clear threads float back to the top when a post is edited, but as a reader following particular threads how can I know what has changed within a thread without a note.

I did not see the forum posts that started this discussion, but I do appreciate the Webmaster calling attention to the behavior. While I love this forum, and learn so much from many of the seasoned travelers, I do find that I'm checking in less and less because of what the Webmaster calls the "clique" behavior. One thing that I've noticed is that there are certain posters who believe themselves to be the presiding expert for a given country. It's quite obvious that when other forum members answer an OP with an opinion contrary to their own, they will reinforce their amount of travel experience to show that theirs is indeed the correct one. I find that off-putting, and I believe that such behavior limits the varied responses and viewpoints that an OP might otherwise have benefited from.

Just my opinion.

Unpopular posters then become victims of coordinated flagging campaigns.

I’ll admit, that NEVER occurred to me. On the board I participated on, it was mainly spam and the occasional way off topic post that got hidden. I don’t participate in much social media so am naive on such campaigns thankfully.

I’d rather see an OP close their post rather than delete the whole thing when they get tired of people repeating the same info, but perhaps that is just me.

I've learned somethings from my travels;

1) All travel is subjective. There is no one right way to travel. Just because you travel one way doesn't mean another person has to travel the same way. Respect other's desires to do things their way.

2) No one here is an expert on travel. Regardless of what you think.

3) If someone has a different opinion on how to do things, respect it. You don't have to prove yourself right. You also don't have to go out of your way to try to prove someone wrong. Or challenge them.

I admit that in the past I may have committed transgressions regarding the above. But in light of this thread, I am going to do my best to be better.

I have noticed one very regular forum member who has not been around since the fracas of the weekend. That member was not at all involved in the two threads which were the problem issue. For all I know that person is just ill or away, but I am starting to wonder if they have been driven away by the nastiness. I do hope not. It will be very sad if that does turn out to be the case, and is one to monitor.

I can't say that we are the best of buddies- we have had our friendly spats- so am not sure how if at all to approach it, if it becomes a longer term case of MIA.

Send the person a PM, they will appreciate the concern.

I admit that in the past I may have committed transgressions regarding the above. But in light of this thread, I am going to do my best to be better.

Ditto pour moi.

In light of the events of this past week, and looking at my own posts, I am cutting back on my "advice" postings here. I will continue to visit this forum, but instead of predominately responding to other's threads (like currently 90+ percent of my postings are in response to someone else's thread, and I find I say the same things over and over and over like a broken record), I intend to ask more of my own questions. In other words I intend to reverse the ratio of my postings from advice giving to advice seeking, and I will seek advice from others on some trips I have in the early planning stages.

Recently I have found some excellent insight and advice for "beyond Europe" travel, specifically destinations on the other side of the world (Asia, Australia, NZ). My personal focus on travel has shifted a bit, away from Europe.

When I do offer my insights going forward, I am going to limit it to the question asked, and resist the temptation to say what I would do, or what I have done, differently. I have been doing way too much of the latter, and it seems that the added "advice" is too often interpreted by others as an annoyance if not an insult. Mea culpa.

Thanks to all.

Jojo, the problem is that sometimes the people asking questions don't know what they don't know. I lead the pack in that regard. I appreciate more than I asked for. If it doesn't help me, maybe it will help someone else.

Q: I arrive by train on Monday. Where is the nearest bank?"
A: "Harry utca 4"
.
Irrelevant information not offered: Monday is a bank holiday, and the neighborhood is a bit dicey.

Okay, extreme, but where is the line? I'll just keep doing what I have done and hope others do the sane for me.

I've learned somethings from my travels; 1) All travel is subjective...

Frank II, I Absolutely agree with your three points.

"No one wants unsolicited advice or your personal commentary". Eh... speak for yourself. Sometimes that can be quite valuable. In the web forum format, a thread is a place for discussion that people use to pass information in a conversational way...If your question gets answered succinctly and accurately as part of the conversation on a thread, then great. If it doesn't, try wording it in a different way and asking it again,

Maybe it's because I'm thick, but to me it seems to me to depend on the nature of the thread. A forum member starts a thread asking something along the lines of whether they should make a connecting flight through EWR or IAD, to me seems to be the sort of thread that invites personal opinion, commentary and open discussion. Then there are those threads that are more objective, and those responding should prioritize answering the original post. There's a time and place for everything, there's inherently thread drift, and there are threads where commentary, pontification, and inside jokes are less appropriate.

I would think a forum member asking something like "can I travel like a local?" Is the sort of open ended question that invites opinions and commentary. On the otherhand a member starts a thread and says, "I'm going to visit Williamsburg for a week and a half, how can I do it like a local?" Is a whole lot less about your opinion on the concept or whether you agree with the concept and a whole lot of providing the OP the knowledge and tools to achieve their goals with maybe some personal experience from your own visit thrown in.

Jojo, the problem is that sometimes the people asking questions don't know what they don't know. I lead the pack in that regard. I appreciate more than I asked for. If it doesn't help me, maybe it will help someone else.

I agree with you Mr E about, mainly, newer posters, they leave out lots of critical info in their original post, and they seem to not know what they don't know. Experienced travelers can read through and point out these things, and I know I have done a lot of that. I think the lack of critical info was part of the problem with the Italy thread, the OP did not mention until later that they had done the kind of "living local" travel in Italy for many years previously, but by then the emotions got ratcheted up, people took offense, sides were formed (the clique thing, I suppose), and the thread went south.

When I come here and ask a question, I am grateful for ALL replies, certainly replies that directly answer my question, but I also value insights and advice that go beyond my original question. I like "opinions", and I am comfortable receiving a wide range of advice and opinions, and then sorting them for my own needs.

Anyway, I am changing my approach to this forum for the foreseeable future. I want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

There are clearly posters on this forum who have very strong opinions about travel that they promote as gospel. There can be a tone of "do it my way or you will not properly enjoy your travel" woven into some replies.
There are posters who come to this site looking for information who do not have the experience that would help them to parse the value of that "expert" advise.
There seems to be a core of posters who seem to feel a sense of ownership of certain areas of content, and in some cases legitimately.

Even being a very experienced traveler, I value information shared by others. Try as I might, I have not been all of the places, seen all of the things, "done" all of the doings. When I look for advice or information from others, it is to help me to make better and more informed choices.

What I find occasionally myself doing here is pushing back and offering a counter opinion when someone else tries to mandate a particular behavior. It was said earlier but to me it bears repeating. I can drive a car after I arrive from a US flight. I have done it so often I could not count the times. I can drive a car all around Europe without falling off the edge of the earth, ending up in jail, or driving around forever trying to find a place to park. That is not to say that I am not a public transportation user. I am. I will use the U and S Bahn this fall in Berlin much as I have used it since 1963. I will rent a car and drive to other places, as I have since 1979. I will manage my itinerary and decide what I can fit into a day, week, month. After many, many dozens of trips around the world and many millions of miles I am a decent planner and I can figure out how to adjust on the fly. If I am asking for information, it's generally not for logistics, it's for sights, scenery and experiences. I recognize that a lot of the people who come here to this forum need both. When we reply to a posting here, we should take the time to read what the OP asked for and respond to that rather than try to top the posts of what this thread calls clique members. Post to respond to the OP.

Jojo, for me, the wonderful thing about this forum IS that when I ask a question, I do get responses from people with differing outlooks and travel styles. I agree, the more responses to a question the better, because then a poster has the opportunity to sift through the options, and really choose what is going to fit their style, timeline, budget, etc the best. When I ask a question, I want to hear from anyone with knowledge of the location, from the locals who have "insider information", to the travelers who dealt with the issues I'll face, and from less expernced travelers who maybe hit an obstacle I might not have considered. All of that information is useful to me, so, whether it's my post or another for a location I'm thinking of traveling to, it's disappointing when a statement is made ("you can't possibly do that", or some other comment that implies there is only one right answer) that abruptly ends the conversation.

Over a several years now on this forum, I've noted lately the culture decline into too much snippy parsimonious gotcha-ing. Some are highly experienced, and some seem to have lost the "heart of a teacher" attitude this forum engenders. Concern has become a sort of not nice policing of both OP's and responses, or giving a little extra thumb to the ribs when responding with contrary opinion/fact.

Thank you Mod for getting out in front of it.

I disagree with the suggestion that thumbs up or down voting is a good idea for this forum. It establishes attitude camps much more strongly, behind emboldened and dopamine craving leaders who become more extreme for more approval (welcome to politics). If considering please don't, Thanks :)

It's hard sometimes to have mature discussions online, wherein opinions differ and yet we stick to working through ideas, not raising to ego driven attack. But I will say there are so many smart, civil, interesting regulars here, and I really appreciate how well nearly everybody interacts. Thanks very much all!

Mack, While I don’t understand the concept of “lesser destination” go read FrankII’s post about each to their own, I do agree that if someone is profiting off the forum they should be immediately reported to the Webmaster; but accusations really don’t belong in any forum post.

We all have our reasons for being here. Mine are pretty simple. I stumbled into a place some 20 years ago and fell in love with it and love to share it. As a result I have had the blessing to meet a number of you and its always been good. A couple of you keep returning and I am glad I participated in that. I hope for more. But anyone if they are fortunate can find a place they connect with. Travel till you find it. Then travel more. Its the best learning experience in the world.

The other posts that I am drawn to are the ones where someone is being told that something is a bad idea or those that promote one of the current overly generalized mantras that are probably lacking in factual substance. There are no bad ideas so I try and offer some balance to the discussion; and very few generalizations hold water “in Europe” so I try and demonstrate that when i think it has some value to the discussion or to those that read later .... but yes, that one i need to work on a bit and am doing so.

We have some great sources of wisdom here. FrankII has made a life out of his travel, trust his instinct. TexasTravelMom has probably traveled more in the last 5 years than 90% of those here, trust her instinct. Hank has a great and very solid way of looking at life and if applied might make the trip more fun. If you are going to France you need to quiz Bets, Germany then its Ms. Jo, David’s sense of humor is appreciated and gives me some cover for mine. And I am sorry I missed a dozen more names. Good bunch. Thank you.

"There are no bad ideas"

On the other hand, I saw rollmop ice cream at the Munich Viktualienmarkt ;)

Have been watching and reading all of the responses. Interesting stuff.

My only complaints are when someone posts about what a wonderful time they had doing something (Sound of Music Tour, etc. ) and a regular will tell them how they wasted their money. Talk about throwing water on a party! Why would anyone want to ruin fun or fond memories??? Posters that overtake a thread, posting over and over and over again. People who haven't visited a place in 20-30 years, yet continue to post about it like they were there last week. Cities in Europe change a lot and quickly. Sort of like me trying to post about Columbus, Ohio. I no longer have a clue about what it is like there.

For those who resent some of us having 1000s of posts and those badges, it is only because we have been on the forum for a decade or more. Those posts add up. The badges are simply a fun idea from the Webmaster.

For those who have been on the forum for a long time, we do have some common memories of posters who have come and gone, some of them are missed greatly (I won't name names) and others were simply good for some stories. We try not to talk about them on the forum though, except once every couple of years, someone will mention the Hoola Hoop girl, or He who should not be named. We all giggle a bit, remembering, but then go on with our lives, answering more questions.

Have had the pleasure of meeting so many people in person, thanks to living at the crossroads of Europe. So many of them have become real friends and that is the joy of this forum. We had zoom meetings during Covid and met even more forum members. It makes for a close knit forum that probably does not exist any place else.

Thanks, Andrew for posting this. There have been many times when it felt like it was time to leave this forum, because it wasn't fun anymore due to certain posters, but I keep coming back.

I admit that in the past I may have committed transgressions regarding the above. But in light of this thread, I am going to do my best to be better.

and

In light of the events of this past week, and looking at my own posts, I am cutting back on my "advice" postings here.

Echoing the same responses.
My mom had the "Thumper Rule", from the Disney movie Bambi: "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." How easily I forget.

I admit that in the past I may have committed transgressions regarding the above. But in light of this thread, I am going to do my best to be better.

Me too, Frank. Thanks for those thoughts.

I don't mind a bit of verbal argy-bargy. The problem is some people get too prickly, others too easily offended.

Let the official moderator moderate. No one else.

Similar issues happen with folks planning a trip that hits the most popular tourist locations and the oft heard comment “you will be back” which to many sound condescending as most people in the US only ever do one or perhaps two trips to Europe in there lives and many in this forum do yearly trips or more often then that.

It's actually the advice Rick Steves himself gives to people on how to plan a trip that people are passing along:

Adjust by cutting, streamlining, or adding to fit your timeline or budget. If two destinations are equally important to you but you don't have time or money for both, cut the place that takes the most time, hassle, or expense to reach. Don't try to do everything on one trip. Assume you will return.
https://www.ricksteves.com/watch-read-listen/read/articles/plan-european-vacation

I'd like to address one aspect as I've had a number of reports and messages from not just those who have been recipients of the cliquish behavior I've described, but also those of us who spend a lot of time helping others here.

Some of the comments here are a bit too broad reaching in that they cast all multi-thousand posters here in a bad light, and I'm sorry for the part I've played in that by starting this thread. I don't back down from what I intend to moderate in this thread because there is a communal issue that the community needs to be aware of to resolve. And while I've edited back a few comments here, I'm largely leaving them up as I think we need to be aware of how behaviors are affecting others here. If you're offended because - upon introspection - that's not you, then please don't be offended because it's not intended for you.

However, given the tenor of some posts in this thread, I want to call out that the solution isn't to reverse the cliquish behavior to turn non-multi-thousand posters vs multi-thousand posters. That's too wide of a brush, and it's not the point. I was specific in my opening post to note that 10-15 members are directly contributing to the wider issue more than others, not all of our regulars. Yes, that's hard because you don't know if I mean you unless I've contacted you about it (and I'm not done). Our regularly contributing members do tons to make this forum the helpful place that it is. And when ~100 people post ~90% of the advice (I'm not sure what the actual ratio is), there is naturally going to be more instances of unintentionally offending posts (poor wording, etc) from a consolidated set of people. I get that, and I think some have interpreted that in the past as giving regulars a pass. I don't, but I just don't consider one set of forum members to be more problematic than another (outside of the clique-related behavior I'm trying to handle) as moderation for everyone is done on an individual level, and I consider the rate at which an issue arises for any given person. When I moderate an issue, I expect to see that the issue doesn't recur once you've been informed. Moving on...

The purpose of all this is to recognize that we're all here to help each other and to treat each other well so that the good advice and joy of travel can shine through. Those who have exhibited the behaviors I've noted also have the most power to end those issues as they are an example for others through the volume of their posts. I thank you all again for your consideration for how your posts are received by others.

John, I think you're right on this one. There's a finer point that's easy to miss miss in RS' "Assume you will return." Even if you never return, traveling as if you will return likely leads to an overall better experience for most people.

I'm sure that the nuance gets lost in some replies that intend "of course you'll return, I mean who doesn't go to Europe annually?" But to my eye 95% of the time forum member says "assume you will be back" they mean it in spirit Rick means it.

Fwiw, I see no problem with the "you will be back" comment as long as it's not particularly negative depending on context. Yes, not everyone has the means to return, but it's also a hopeful message in that you'll enjoy travel to the point that you'll want to come back. And many do travel again after getting their feet wet or discovering a new place they enjoy.

Assuming the best in others goes both ways. Let's assume the best in those giving advice too.

I'd like to respond more about the ideas for technical improvements. Some of the replies have already addressed why we wouldn't do some of them, but I intend to explain our approach there too. I may not have time to do this today, aka it may be next week given the long weekend. (I'll do my best to check in and handle some spam on the weekend ;)

I for one, would appreciate knowing if I've crossed the line, and maybe falsely assumed that I would have gotten a message to that effect. If so, I apologize and recognize that the questions are always new to someone.

What I want to know, Mr Webmaster, is how'se come that Rick Steves fella uses the words "convivial", 'quintessential" and "exuberant" in every freakin' episode, huh?!! Like cut it down to once a season for gosh sakes! Ever heard of a thesaurus, huh? (What's another word for thesaurus anyhow?)

And as long as we're on the subject of what really grinds my gears, this whole subject of European travel is getting a bit played, right? Why not Ohio travel? Have you ever been to Akron? Huh? It's nice too.

P.S. Nice job! Great site, great tours, great guides, great content, well done.

On the "living like a local" business -- I live in New York City, a very touristed place by any measure. Perhaps the wording of "live like a local" is not ideal, but I think it's a bit uncharitable to posit this as a completely ridiculous question.

For example -- in the NYC context, people asking this question are basically asking "how do I move off of the Empire State Building / Statue of Liberty / Times Square / Broadway show circuit and experience more of what the city is like for locals?"

I could be snarky and say "well, you could commute for 3 hours round-trip on the subway, do laundry at a laundromat five blocks away, sweat in your apartment that doesn't have central AC, and sign away thousands of dollars in broker's fees -- voilà! Living like a local."

But really, I know that the kind of suggestions people are looking for are "visit Flushing for stellar Chinese food / picnic in Prospect Park / take a stroll through the beautiful leafy residential streets of the Upper West Side / shop at a Thai market in Elmhurst / go to a club in Bushwick / check out the Queens Night Market on a Saturday night," depending on specific interests of course. (For the record, these are all things that I, a NYC resident, have done while living here).

And yes! Of course as a resident I don't do all those fun things all day every day -- Monday to Friday, in a best case scenario, I go to the gym, commute to work, and make dinner, like millions of other people. But all those other fun things I mentioned are things that I -- a local -- enjoy, the kinds of things that locals are more likely to be aware of than tourists, and the kind of things I think many posters are looking for.

Maybe "live" isn't the right word, but there is an NYC experience that is a middle ground between "doesn't leave the 5-block radius from the Empire State Building" and "the absolute mundanity of daily life," and I have to believe there's this middle ground for many other heavily-visited places.

Andrew, I don't think it takes a lot of imagination to understand the intent of the question. If you google it there is a lot written about how to do it within the context you described. Maybe you have to have had a lot of travel experience and experience with the colloquial that goes with travel to get it.

Andrew's post kicked a memory for me.

Maybe visitor is a kinder word then tourist.

I was once with a friend who lived in Belgium. I arrived by train mid-morning and actually for the rest of the day I "lived like a local" because I tagged along with my friend for the remainder of the day. We first picked up some clothes he had tailored and then we stopped at a market to buy some food for dinner. He then had to deliver some paperwork from home back to his office and I sat outside enjoying the weather for about 30 minutes. On the way home we stopped at a bakery and picked up some fresh bread for dinner. When we got home his girlfriend was in the garden doing some weeding and he went outside to help. I hung around and help a little, but mostly stayed out of the way. Then, they both cleaned up and we opened some wine and chatted away until dinnertime. We went for some drinks after dinner at a local place and returned home.

For the following 2 days they took me all over the place sightseeing and they were the best guides ever as they both grew up in the area.

Now, when I compare "living like a local" or "being a visitor, I'll choose being a visitor every time. The one advantage I had was having friends with me from the area who knew where the great restaurants were that were off the beaten path. There is no shame in "living like a visitor" because that is who we really are when not at home. At Disney I'm a guest, in Europe we should be called visitors. Sounds more welcoming.

Threadwear's post kicked a memory for me.

I had a similar experience in Belgium. Many on here talk about how rubbish Brussels is as a destination. I had some great times there in the past. I went to visit friends too and stayed in Saint-Gilles. It's a really characterful neighbourhood. My friend had a wonderful old apartment with floor to ceiling windows. Her pre-school age kids were fascinated by the funny man who couldn't speak French as well as them :) There was a proper Belgian little cafe bar downstairs on the street where I was welcomed as a friend of their neighbour.

The second time I went, I was invited out to play live video visuals to accompany a music performance a friend was giving. On that occasion I was taken out to eat in Saint-Gilles at a Vietnamese place (my friend is Belgian-Vietnamese) and visited a bar playing some great 80's French language new wave that I'd never heard. On the Saturday I went record shopping, being introduced as the Scottish visitor to everyone as we went.

I did see the Grand-Place and Manneken Pis by accident, but I got just as much pleasure from walking some of the grand boulevards outside of the centre.

The point of my rather self indulgent tales of Brussels is that to "live like a local" one must do the things that locals do. Andrew touched upon it above in relation to NYC. My experience (that I'm able to relate on here) of NYC included thrift shopping in Williamsburg, photographing graffiti and then going to see a local band in Greenpoint, then happily riding the subway back to Manhattan at 3am. Other highlights for me were the Jewish Orthodox camera stores in Manhattan, observing the patrons of a midtown Wendy's at 2am one morning, sneaker shopping downtown (Flight Club was awful - not welcome there at all), and Mexican food at a joint with a backroom where the patrons seemingly needed to be frisked by a large gentleman before entering. Never saw the Empire State Building, The Statue of Liberty or (regretfully now) MoMA.

I could go on. I might ramble further in another post if I'm encouraged to. Suffice to say I've been to Amsterdam maybe 20 times and never seen the Anne Frank House. Been to Barcelona maybe ten times and have never been inside the Sagrada Familia. I could tell you what I have done in a similar vein to what I described above. Living like a local, or at least a deeply embedded visitor, means you might need to miss out on some of the things that you'd otherwise plan.

I visit frequently and post rarely. This forum is the most helpful of the options out there and the majority of members really do try to be helpful and from someone who is looking for real on the ground info, it is invaluable. Sometimes there is a bit of judgement and demands to provide private decision making or details that the OP may not wish to share, which is their choice and should be respected. Other times there is a difference of opinion and digging in to challenge that is both unnecessary and tantamount to spinning wheels in a muddy field - a lot of effort for no gain. For me personally, I understand that no one here is receiving a financial benefit for providing feedback on a destination, recommending a restaurant or advice regarding an area to stay. Thank you. I have benefited greatly from many here and hope that continues for years to come. Cheers to safe travels, new experiences, revisiting favorite places and learning from each other.

Andrew's post is my favourite of the day and like others above invokes some memories. In 1997, and long before I'd ever heard of Rick Steves, I visited NYC for the first time and loved it. I immediately had a vision of coming back for a month long stay and living like a local. My inspiration of how locals lived were Seinfeld and Friends episodes, by living in an apartment, having no car and hanging around diners and coffee shops. I haven't done it yet and wouldn't even care if my inspiration is accurate, that's my vision of living like a local in NYC. Perhaps the next time a newbie joins the Forum and asks the question, we should ask what their vision of living like a local is, and then make suggestions on how do do it their way.

A very interesting and thought provoking thread. I didn't see the thread that led to the webmaster needing to make this post.
I hope that I am always kind and thoughtful in my responses, but fully accept that sometimes brevity caused by a lack of time to write a longer response might come across as brusque. I appreciate the need to translate 'live like a local' into something more akin to 'live like a visitor who doesn't just want to see the honey pot sights'. I welcome the opportunity to be part of this wonderful community and I personally find this a much more friendly and welcoming place than other travel forums out there.

I would maintain that it's pretty easy to "live like a local" for visitors in the UK, especially up north and in Scotland. You don't have the language barrier you would in some other countries and finding out about people's lives might be something quite normal and friendly in a lot of cases.

Living like a (fairly posh) local in London might be as easy as taking up residence in Shoreditch, restaurant hopping from Conde Nast's list and drinking a beer in London Fields on a Saturday afternoon. Or taking up residence in Clapham and going to see something challenging by an up and coming director at the Young Vic.

It seems to be the time to back away from this forum. Clique behavior also occurs when members take it upon themselves to become the guideline police.

Seriously you guys. I responded to a poster today about “eating in Rome” and some of the replies to that post were quite rude and condescending. I am not the moderator here but were you not paying attention?

Saw and responded to that post as well. Not that it matters, but again it was a first time poster, on the weekend and the post was worded kind of oddly. I agree people should just ignore those posts instead of responding because the post was oddly written.

I find the most recent comments on this thread quite disturbing-

Firstly why does one poster feel the need to apologise for other people's posts?- it smacks of emphasising that their advice is better than everyone else's. Sure the post is slackly worded, indeed what is "American food?"- it will surely differ hugely across the Country- a Country with it's foundations in immigration. Some other posters seemed to be to be trying to elicit more detail, if a bit clumsily. The OP never said that they saw a Burger and fries as the epitome of American cuisine.

Secondly do I seriously believe that a new poster knows that the webmaster only works weekdays so chooses the weekend to post what some see as a dodgy post?- of course I don't. Rather I see a few of the regulars, some of the "clique" for the 2nd weekend on the row taking advantage of that fact. I have real difficulty with anyone at all going through threads which they are not contributing to reporting what they see as multiple transgressions- I for one have better things to do with my time (in fact better things to do than write this post).
That doesn't feel nice to me- and I have been on the other end of that trend as well. And had my hands rapped, and yes changed things up as a result.
It just feels of unpleasant behaviour, bordering on the lower spectrum of bullying. Not in the spirit of the forum. If that upsets anyone tough- I am saying what I think.

I am now aware of three faithful members of the forum who have not been posting this week (all people who concentrate on the job in hand of giving very good quality advice)- there may be innocent reasons in all three cases. Now it looks above like we may have lost a 4th member. Of the three I have noted one I am on the brink of PM'ing 1 (but if they have left they won't see the PM), another I wrote a PM to last night but then binned it as I don't really know what to adequately say- not after I saw the latest of what was happening. I am genuinely personally concerned about all three.

There was also another thread which I responded to yesterday and was roundly criticised by two others for trying to be thoughtful.
No I am not going to be nasty to those two by "reporting" them- just shrug and move on, angry as I am with both of them.

As a European, I read some comments not so much as rude, but as a pushback against the stereotypes about Europe, which may not always be stated openly by an OP, but are obvious, at least to me, in the wording of some questions.

For instance, in the "eating in Rome" thread, to me the comments apparently perceived by some of you as rude had more to do with the fact that some Americans seem to think Italian food only consists of pasta, pizza and cheese with everything, and were not really a comment on the "dietary preferences" of the OP.

After being a longtime lurker and only a recent commenter, maybe I should take Margie's suggestion and back away from the forum, or at least from commenting. It seems anything I may say as a European, which I am after all, might be interpreted as rude if it does not comply with the Hallmark style.

Personally I'd hope to see you post more. If you saw my post about Brussels further up, we need more people flying the flag for your town :) Always interesting to have contributors in the low countries in general imho.

for what it is worth - I read the post in question through closely, including this morning's additions and I really didn't see anything particularly rude or snobby. If somebody else hadn't mentioned it I was about to mention McDonalds too.

I am glad that others have mentioned the normal Italian menu with the different courses and encouraged the OP to work from that. I think that if I were the OP I would have benefitted from the thread. And hopefully had ideas for where to take his wife.

I've refrained from commenting in the actual thread.

and, veerle3, please keep writing.... I'll be in Belgium again in a couple of weeks

To GerryM, yes, I saw your post about Brussels, and read it with pleasure. It is true that on this forum, Brussels gets more negative than positive attention. There was a fervent defender of Brussels on the forum, Tom from Danville, but he has been absent for a few years now. I keep hoping he will come back.

To both GerryM and Nigel, thanks for the encouragement. Problem is, I only like to write what I know about, and because of my age (I'm close to 80) and family situation (recently widowed, late husband was Italian), I seem to be travelling only to Ferrara (Emilia Romagna) and Passau (Bavaria) for family visits, which are quite different from touristic trips. However, I'll do my best!

To Nigel, if you mean a couple of weeks literally, I'll be in Passau, otherwise I would like to meet up with you. Maybe another time? Send me a PM if you want.

veerle3's comments strike a note here. I think most of us here understand in principle that the "rules" of politeness are not universally defined. But it seems some of us are less than tolerant of what might just be the European perspective when Europeans post on this forum.

Earlier on this thread, the question, "why would you ever rent a car when there is a train?" was declared inherently rude/elitist. Now, I can say with confidence that I have seen similar responses on the car/train choice a hundred times or more, usually from Germans, many of whom tend to share the sincere view that the car option is inherently undesirable and defective. They don't see it as rude to ask Non-Europeans this sincere question or to share their own perspective on the issue, but instead as helpful - and while North Americans might think them rude for interfering with their own private choices, I'm sure these Europeans think it would be ruder NOT to share their thoughts with you... after all, it is you who will be visiting THEIR country, and in their eyes, you deserve to understand how their people see these issues. Silence would be an insult.

So yes, I'm a little concerned that a certain amount of North-American interactional hegemony might be at work here in this discussion about what the right topics, tones, and concerns are. I can see why Europeans might find it all more than a little petty, more than a little judgmental and intolerant.

I had already been thinking this forum isn't for me, taken me 6 years to work that one out haha.
Reading all the above pretty much confirms it. I will still lurk and will send PMs out to anyone if I think I can give be of specific help.

We Can Do Better - Eliminating Clique Behavior

Not looking good.

G-d bless you Andrew. Not sure if your being so good at what you do is a blessing or a curse.

Oh dear.
I'm having a moment of déjà vu here. Does anyone else remember this conversation from 5 years back?

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/general-europe/reactions-to-the-op-a-discussion-for-our-contributing-members

The RS community is populated by a diverse bunch of Merrill-Reid/Wilson communication styles, if any of you had that training in your workplace? The "You do you!" Amiable can have the "Just the facts, Jack!" Driver tearing their hair out, and the "Hey, I've been to (where you live) and how's the weather...?" Expressive can drive the "Information! I need information!" Analytical to drink.

I fall solidly into the Analytical quadrant and apologize profusely here and now for annoying any of our fellows with my particular brand of geekiness. I don't mean to, and try to recognize and appreciate that others with different styles don't intentionally try to annoy me either. As well, some of us who've been cheerfully hanging out here for many years can understandably have larger contribution numbers under our names. It has never occurred to me that anyone would post more often than others simply to boost that count, or treat others with smaller numbers differently. In fact, I'm personally against any sort of Facebook "Like" votes as I've seen that sort of thing create clique-type behaviors.

But back to diversity... Throw cultural communication differences into our mix and whoa, things can really go wobbly without a dose of patience and understanding. Veerie3, this comment hits home there:

"It seems anything I may say as a European, which I am after all, might be interpreted as rude if it does not comply with the Hallmark style."

Carlos, I saw your comment waaaay upthread too and remember your response to this comment on that long-ago conversation:

Me:
"As far as tone, I sometimes think that we experience some cultural differences in how posters respond? Just as I've heard many times that American "nice" can be suspect abroad of being disingenuous, respondents who are by custom very direct may be perceived by our citizens as rude or intimidating."

Carlos:
"This is spot on Kathy, when posting here I've had to adapt my tone somewhat to a more "American style". Most people probably don't notice but I have to mentally review my posts to make sure my "Spanish directness" does not put people off."

Yep, other cultures can have a more direct communication style than Americans may be used to. It's a difference that can be useful to understand when faced with the brusque French waiter or Italian ticket agent? They're not rude; just used to getting to the point. Carlos and Veerie3, please don't leave us as you've valuable insights and advice to share!

Anyway, It's a travel forum, not World Peace. Then again with tolerance, flexibility and a healthy dose of humor - with posters both new and not-so - maybe we can make our RS World a more peaceable place? Count me in! :O)

Hi Kathy, thanks for your post and encouragement. Not planning to fully leave the forum, just needed to take a step back, especially in recent weeks. I think there are 4 main issues that I've noticed increase in these last few weeks:

1. People actually being rude, especially to those who are less traveled.

2. People questioning the legitimacy of people's posts/info/feelings, I've seen this for both new and veteran members.

3. Misinterpretation of a more direct tone from some of our European contributors as "rudeness".

4. Clique behavior/groupthink where people pile-on with issues 1-3.

Earlier on this thread, the question, "why would you ever rent a car when there is a train?" was declared inherently rude/elitist. Now, I can say with confidence that I have seen similar responses on the car/train choice a hundred times or more, usually from Germans, many of whom tend to share the sincere view that the car option is inherently undesirable and defective.

I cringe when I read things like ”Why would you ever do …” or ”Where did you hear …”.
While it may be intended as sincere and direct, it can come across as implying the person is too stupid to know better. It can make the OP feel insulted and they can feel the need to defend themselves. You can still make the same point in a way that doesn’t make the OP feel like an idiot or outcast (e.g., ”I think the train is a much better way to travel because …”).

Laura: I think your response (cringing) exemplifies the difficulties of cross-cultural communication and not much more...

Your native-English-speaker emotional response is quite natural to such a question. Our language has us trained to interpret questions worded in this way as rude. But this wording, from a native speaker of German using YOUR native language, is very commonplace and not intended rudely... it is in fact how such questions are routinely worded in German. So while you might respond defensively to such wording, the German speaker cannot and does not anticipate your negative reaction - it's just a normal question in his/her mind.

And of course on a FORUM, you have no audio or visual clues whatsoever as to the actual INTENT of the German speaker.

So my suggestion here is not to trust your own emotional response to words from non-native speakers who are doing their best to communicate with you with the English-language tools they possess. What they write might look like perfectly good English, but the wording nuances you might expect them to have mastered are probably not there in the measure that you are expecting and do not require judgment. Think of them as innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

I learned German thoroughly and still speak it fluently, but NOT perfectly, so there are times when the reactions I get from native German speakers are not what I expect. It's just terribly difficult to get things just right and with just the right tone, especially in writing.

@Gail: New posters are of course unknowns. I think most responders here do try to make them feel welcome, as you suggest, and are patient with them - pretty much consistently. But patience is good for everyone who asks questions here. New posters can be well-traveled folks, and veteran posters can still be poorly traveled. You never really know who you're talking to here... veteran posters and newbies alike can be attentive to detail or scatterbrained, sensitive or tough-skinned, etc. etc. So being polite and patient on some level does matter. Then again, responders are human too... I'm sure some of us have posted during personal crises and don't always behave as patiently as we'd like to, coming off occasionally as jerks.

Newbies have some level of responsibility for their own feelings too. Even first-time posters must have learned or at least heard that social media sometimes means dealing with jerks.

I tried to let this rest, but …..

The idea that the issue of rudeness in the forum has anything to do with cultural norms of the European members of the forum is nonsense. Especially when the majority of the rudeness comes from US members. Lets not generalize the behavior of Europeans to cover our sins.

I had a company with 50 employees, half of which were immigrants from 4 other continents: Christians, Orthodox, Muslim, Buddhist, atheists. White, black, and every shade in between. They all communicated with each other politely. Maybe, just maybe, there are some grey areas in the way their culture communicates but those were avoided by doing exactly what the forum requires; being exceedingly polite.

The only thing I might suggest to the European members, as a reminder, that odds are you are communicating in your second or third language (wish I could learn just one more than American), so take extra care that you are understood in the polite context that I know you want to be heard in. Not always easy, but it is a US forum for the most part. But again, I havent seen it as a problem.

I suspect another force, another attitude, is at work here and it has nothing to do with culture.

Mr É: Your response vis-a-vis the role of "cultural norms" in communication...

• disregards many essential differences between the two communication venues... a social media platform is NOT a workplace.

• mistakes the topic of "cross-cultural communication patterns" for the overly-broad topic of "cultural norms."

• incorrectly suggests that I've attributed all forum rudeness to "cultural differences"... there are of course many other kinds of "rude."

• serves as a fine example of the forum behavior you claim to abhor... (is "nonsense" is the new polite-word-of-the-day?)

incorrectly suggests that I've attributed all forum rudeness to
"cultural differences"... there are of course many other kinds of
"rude."

Did not attribute my response to one comment, that would not have been fair to you. There were a number of comments on the same vein so it was directed more at the generalized inference. My staff wrote letters to, texted each other, did facebook with each other as well ... I think we are all of a place in life where we can do better no matter where we come from.

serves as a fine example of the forum behavior you claim to abhor...
(is "nonsense" is the new polite-word-of-the-day?)

You got me, fair and square. I do need to practice what I preach. My apologies. And my mistep is probably indicitive of 90% of the perceived rudenes. But I wont say its how people from Texas express themselves so its okay cause its the culture. Nope, my mistetp, clear and plain.

I am not going to edit it, because it serves as a good example of my point. None of us are perfect, rarely is the rudeness intentional or premeditated, but most of us when we do it, we do it without thinking.

1. its best to assume the best and read past it,
2. if it is pointed out (prefereably in a manner that polite and does not insult or escalate the issue), acknowledge it, own it and apologize for the poor choice of words.
   
3. If in pointing it out the individual is as bad as you, see number 1 above as anything less and the tread goes to pot.

I have no idea what threads prompted this, but I very much like what a few people have said. Assume good intent.

To rephrase Mr. E above, the idea that the issue of rudeness in the forum has much to do with cultural norms of the European members of the forum is probably inaccurate.

For one, while there might be some cultural tendencies at play, tens of millions of Americans are more direct than tens of millions of Europeans. These are not stark, dichotomous categories. For another, 99% of people with direct communication style can also be tactful in settings (like a private discussion forum with an explicit charter specifying tact and niceness) that require it. It's not a big ask for very low level codes switching, not a heavy lift.

IMO, "I'm just direct" is in some cases a beard behind which jerks hide. My closest aunt, to dip into personal anecdote, was "I'm just direct" to a high level. What she really was though, having observed her my whole life, was a morbidly obese antisocial fear-biter who got a little petty charge out of riling others. She wasn't just direct, but also a bit of an a$$hat. Unsurprisingly she loved internet forums, where she constantly perceiving slights and supposed stupidity and going at others, and claiming "I'm just direct" (or "I'm just Jersey" or some other variant) when she'd inevitably get booted by mods.

The vast majority of "direct" communicating individuals are reasonably tactful and nice enough, and finding the dominant tone of this forum is really not so hard. So to me it seems perfectly reasonable and quite wise that the mods of this privately owned and operated forum specify minimal degrees of tact and surface kindness as its native culture, and it seems kind of a reach to call that some vague sort of cultural insensitivity. And let's note that the mod hasn't specified a given style exactly, but rather called out particular content of certain responses. One can be direct and not "pile on" for instance. The upside is no bridges (or at least fewer) to hide under, which makes this a place where a wide swath of people -- regulars and one time visitors, chat forum savvy and newbies -- can feel comfortable positing what often are inevitably ignorant questions without fear of being laid into.

Lastly, I won't go deep into deconstructing "direct," but the word is definitely a sign with only loose and ephemeral attachment to what it supposedly signifies in this current discussion. I can be direct, and still write in a way that is about information, even information over which folks disagree, and also write in a way not dripping with potential for backhanded slights. "Direct" is not necessarily tightly connected to "open to potential for offense." Maybe blunt or curt are though.

I hope you all have a happy and untroubled day. Memorial Day holiday here in the USA today, a day when we reflect on our people who died in military service. If that's close to you then I hope time has provided some peace and perspective.

Hank, there is another similar thread. Can I send you my notes and have you write my response. Use the word "tertiary" at least once if at all possible. Thank you Hank. G-d bless on this most special day of rememberance.

To be clear, my musings about cultural directness was in response to comments from two of our European posters who DO feel that they have to walk on rather intimidating eggshells on this forum for that very reason. This is not the first time that feeling has been expressed, either. So, Carlos and Veerie3, just letting you know that someone heard you, didn't think your viewpoints were "nonsense" nor was it "nonsense" to validate those viewpoints. After all, I'm not coming from the same places you are, and if I was maybe I'd feel the same.

Hank: As I explained to MR E, my own comments were not intended to attribute behaviors percieved as "rude" to differences in "cultural norms." They were made in response to Laura's specific example... ”Why would you ever do …” - which exhibits a linguistic pattern that elicits one particular response (like Laura's) in the English language and an entirely different response in the German language. German-speakers relying on their own limited language competence quite naturally evoke negative responses like Laura's when putting their English sentences together - but they do so without intending to insult and without realizing their English-language natives might have a negative response.

There are additional utterances which demonstrate this language phenomenon and resultant misunderstanding which I might provide to demonstrate this phenomenon, but I don't feel like doing so. The point is that sometimes, intercultural misunderstandings do happen on the basis of language pattern differences, and it's wise to be aware of this before one chooses to wrongly label this poster or that poster rude or in violation of some forum guideline.

None of this should be taken to mean that cultural norms are irrelevant to the Webmaster's task. I just wasn't talking about that very large grab-bag of problems. The fact that this is an American-based forum is not particularly relevant to the task of retaining forum members from other countries, who should in fact be listened to if they are feeling mistreated and are not convinced they should stay on the forum.

I get that Russ. And then those misunderstandings would be intermittent one-offs, not a continuous pattern yes? I wouldn't advocate for some sort of one strike zero tolerance policy, you are right that that would not be fair and not a good idea.

To be clear, my musings about cultural directness was in response to comments from two of our European posters who DO feel that they have to walk on rather intimidating eggshells on this forum for that very reason. This is not the first time that feeling has been expressed, either. So, Carlos and Veerie3, just letting you know that someone heard you, didn't think your viewpoints were "nonsense" nor was it "nonsense" to validate those viewpoints. After all, I'm not coming from the same places you are, and if I was maybe I'd feel the same.

Once again thanks for your post Kathy, I think that if more forum members had your kind of attitude and empathy we wouldn't need to be having this conversation in the first place. Unfortunately the issues I listed up thread seem to have reared their head again in recent responses.

To Kathy, maybe rather intimidating eggshells is a bit too strong to define how I feel, but indeed, I spent a long time on the wording of my comment and hesitated quite a long time before publishing it.

To "Mr. E", I still do not understand what you mean exactly with this last line of your comment I suspect another force, another attitude, is at work here and it has nothing to do with culture.. For me, it is a different attitude, yes, and if I cannot see this as a difference in culture, what is the meaning of culture then to you? And what other force could be at work here, according to you?

veerle3, that's a fair question. There are a couple of Europeans on the forum that are as unpleasant as the typical American unpleasant member. In the same form and with the same attitude and with the same style of, let's say irritation. They could be brothers.

I am not yet prepared to believe all Europeans are the same as the worst here. My experience is that by and large courtsey and kindness and politeness are much more universal than not.

My suspicion is these few Europeans share the same attitude and the same intent as their American counterparts with out culture being a part of it. Especially when the majority of the Europeans on the forum are quite enjoyable and helpful.

The other force? Well, if it's not culture, it has to be something. Not my speciality to begin to understand what it is and not my place to name call on the forum even if I did understand.

Just my opinion. I guess I could be wrong, but I would be happier to find our that I am correct.

Just tell us what this mysterious force is. I was too scared to ask when I saw that post earlier. I'm very curious too. I'm kinda afraid you might say something nuts though.

I'll try to do better, but honestly my natural tendency towards irony and a bit of snark rears its head sometimes when I feel a poster is just being ridiculous in their travel expectations.

"We have 3 days in Italy. Monday - Rome, Tuesday Florence, Wednesday
- Venice. Would you fly out of Venice or take the train back to Rome?"

I'm exaggerating, but not by much. The obvious answer is to ignore these posts. I do frequently, but sometimes I get sucked in ( >︹<)

Threadwear, I'm hoping only the nicest of the nice forum members make any comments or requests for clarification on the thread you posted the link to.

Time to interject something positive. I repeat, I have met at least a dozen RS in Europe, and I communicate with a handful of others through WhatsApp and email fairly regularly, and each and every one was and is wonderful. On the whole, it's a great bunch. Thank you for the experience.

Yea, who would answer that

Just ignore and see if anyone answers.

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/italy/ferrari-rental-in-florence-italy

But I do hope they dont see this thread.

GerryM, have you seen Close Encounters of the 3rd Kind. There are people building modles in the basement of their tourist destinations!

I KNEW it would be the aliens! Damn them!

This question about the Ferrari is exactly what the webmaster is referring to- the OP has asked a simple question- where do I rent a Ferrari? If you don't know don't answer the question. Simple.

It doesn't need supplementary questions. Doing so is the root of the problems here.

1 and 2- It is none of my business whether the OP intends to tootle round town in 2nd gear, or put his foot to the floor on the nearest motorway. I don't care if he wants to do 3x the speed limit, get 12 points on his licence and be banned immediately under totting up. As long as he isn't on the same road as me!!

3- It is irrelevant if the OP has rented or driven one before. If he has a valid DL he can rent or drive one. My UK Licence allows me to drive any kind of car (Milk float to Lamborghini), up to a 16 seat bus (so I could legally drive a Rabbies Tour tomorrow if I wanted to) or a 7.5Te van, even a steamroller and a lot else besides. I don't have to ask anyone's permission, let alone that of a bunch of total strangers. If I want to drive a Lamborghini tomorrow morning up the Hardknott pass in the English Lake District (then a steamroller back down) it is seriously no one else's business (except my bank manager!).

4.-That is offensive. I'll report that to the webmaster if I see it.

5- I think the OP has probably heard of Google so that is not necessary and potentially snide. In the Lake District a Ferrari is way out of my league, but I know vaguely you can rent one. So if the OP had asked me that here I will spend a bit of time thinking about it, googling and maybe looking in the 'phone book to give a productive and helpful answer.

isn31c, I was being sarcastic. I answered the post. One of 2 answers last time I checked. Of course it was an appropriate question. Of course you are correct.

This question about the Ferrari is exactly what the webmaster is referring to- the OP has asked a simple question- where do I rent a Ferrari? If you don't know don't answer the question. Simple.
It doesn't need supplementary questions. Doing so is the root of the problems here...

+1
(Golf clap)

I deleted my post about the Ferrari because it was misinterpreted. I wasn't suggesting the answers that were listed be used, but rather how readers might interpret posts. My bad...poorly written on my part.

Over the past week I have read so many posts here that prove simply that the world is made up of all different kinds of folks. Doesn't matter what country you live. Some people are thick skinned, others are snowflakes that melt unless everything is said with sugar and spice. So many here have such travel expertise and knowledge it is effing amazing, while others have just a little, 99% want to share.

I am troubled by the fact I learned that some forum members report on other forum members to the webmaster when something is written in a way they don't perceive is to their liking. That's not my style. If I would read something vulgar or read responses of harassment, I would certainly entertain that option. In all the time I have spent on this site I have never seen anything close to that behavior. I guess because I am not perfect, I don't feel the need to criticize the writing style of others to a reporting degree.

I am sure this thread will close soon. As we move forward, I say to all keep sharing in your own style and most of us will sift through the humor, bluntness or yes, even sarcasm. Keep on posting!!!

Actually Threads. I was called a liar, a thief, a monkey and a person who wouldn't be fit to be a parent. That happened on one of my first posts about 6 years ago. I didn't report them as I got banned for breaching a guideline, wouldn't have bothered anyway, I am a psych nurse been insulted by pros haha, water off a duck's back.
They all still happily post (in large volumes) on here so there you go.

@Threadwear- reporting on each other seems to be more common than you might think. I find it less than savoury. Having been disciplined for it I am constantly walking on eggshells for fear of upsetting one of the self appointed moderators on this forum. In one case I was reported "multiple times" for what I thought was an innocent comment. Hands up- it wasn't as innocent as I thought. But when I contacted the member who I had upset by PM to apologise the answer was essentially "problem, what problem". I don't know if that person was being 2 faced or not.
It left me with a lingering very unpleasant feeling. Yes there are times when I am abused (a strong word, but it really does fit) on here -more often than you might think. I never report it. Just move on with life. One of the risks of social media.

I think this thread has run its course and should be locked.

I agree with JC. If we continue like this, we'll all need psychiatric help shortly !!

Another vote for JC's idea.

I agree with JC. If we continue like this, we'll all need psychiatric
help shortly !!

"IF"? Too late.

I suspect Webmaster will be at the Business Costco later today ( the instant the door opens?) getting a pallet load of his favorite headache relief medicine.

isn31c...bravo and spot on. Where can I rent a steam roller?

This post has completely illuminated why some "regulars" have so many thousands of posts.

After having been away from the forum for a while I decided to have a look again and found this long thread. I haven't read every post in detail but there are some interesting thoughts here.

I have to agree with veerle3 and Carlos, there seems to be an increase in people interpreting more direct posts as rude. Just like Carlos mentioned, I try to adopt my language in order to not step on someone's toe. But it's not always that easy, sometimes I forget it. And if I'm tired it's a lot easier to be more direct, especially since it decreases the risk of being misunderstood. But I can promise that it's never been my intention to be rude.

In general Europeans are probably more direct than Americans. And it's very easy to become even more direct when communicating in a foreign language (Thank you Russ for pointing that out!). You can of course think that we should adjust our language, but if you're speaking English as a 2nd or 3rd language it can be a much bigger effort than just writing what you mean.

And from my point of view I really nothing wrong with a question like ”Where did you hear X”. I do not see it as implying "you are stupid for considering this" but rather "you've probably been misled by some bad advice somewhere".

It's not up to me to decide how the forum should be run. But if people are going to insist on communicating in a North American way, then it might not be the forum for me. Because I'm not sure I have the language skills to do that.

(I'm not sure when I'll be back to the forum and this thread, but if you want to tell me something you can send me a PM. I've changed the settings to recieve an email notification when I get a PM.)

see what rudeness even on this special thread does?

Sad. Very sad. Maybe limit the amount of arguing about how many angels dance on the head of a pin to 1 reply each???

I hear a number of my fellow Europeans leaving because they do not feel welcome.

Is that not why our Webmaster created this thread? To avoid such a disaster?

Well done guys.

I have held off posting because , well because.

But in reading posts on an ongoing basis, it seems to me that somehow this turned into a “how Europeans communicate” thread, when in the three major threads the Webmaster was initially addressing (2 of which I read thoroughly and one halfway through) the rudeness (or call it directness) came from Americans.

Debate communication styles all we want but in those threads, Europeans (ok, except 1) were not involved.

I hate for some of our locals to think their input isn’t valued! Or that it is a problem! No matter how it is delivered. The rest of us with American English as a native language know what we are saying and how we are saying it. Including me right now.

These boards feel so civil by social media standards, that I must confess I am a little bit confused by the proportions taken by this thread. In writing, there is a fine line between disagreement and outright negativity.

I think a big issue is that tone isn’t really conveyed in writing as it is verbally. Therefore, depending on the mood or understanding of the reader, a post can be taken the wrong way. I really don’t see this as dependent on nationality.

Well said TTM

... I am constantly walking on eggshells for fear of upsetting one of the self appointed moderators on this forum.

I've been seeing this term "self-appointed moderators" a lot here, and it bothers me. I'm not sure if everyone realizes this, but the Webmaster is the one who has been asking members to report perceived rude or inappropriate posts, rather than jumping into the fray and continuing the argument. That certainly makes a lot of sense to me, and I for one have been trying to abide by his wishes. Not always successfully but I try, as do most of us, I think.

Keep in mind that just because someone reports a post, it does not mean that the post is removed or the poster banned. It is merely a simple request to the Webmaster and his team to review the post. I would bet that very few "reported" posts get removed or edited.

@Russ - I agree with everything that you said about cultural and language diffferences. However, just to clarify, the posts that make me cringe are almost never written by Europeans.

Here is what I've gotten out of this discussion:

The mission of RSE and this forum is to encourage and support travelers to Europe. Forums like this live and die with attracting new people and actually helping them. I've seen other non-travel forums die when things get un-friendly and clique-ish. So the Webmaster wants to focus on the "help" part of it, and not drive help-seekers away. Some threads are suited to philosophizing and debate (lord knows I've done my share of that), but not requests for basic help. Tone means everything in communicating, even if we don't like the questions.

This is not the first time Webmaster has made such an admonishment. I dont think it was about the subject of the original thread - living like a local - at all. It was about being welcoming and helpful.

And please, our European contributors, don't go away. You're the best part of this.

However, just to clarify, the posts that make me cringe are almost never written by Europeans.

Agree with this 100 percent.

I have been scratching my head at the majority assessment on this thread that the communications issue is Euro-centric. When I have an "issue" with or I cringe at "too on the nose" cliquish / harshly direct posts, it is nearly 100 percent of the time due to a handful of the high thread count American posters. I am American myself, and I can be fairly direct, too, so for any cringe I have caused in the past, mea culpa.

Yet, it appears that the one regular poster who was either banned or has left the forum voluntarily is one of the European posters who I personally enjoyed and learned something from. The input from the europeans is some of the most valuable information I obtain here, I would hate for the forum to lose their presence.

For a thread that is only a week old, it ran its course a long, long time ago.

And please, our European contributors, don't go away. You're the best part of this.

Ditto this, please stay, keep contributing.

These boards feel so civil by social media standards

I agree. People are generally pretty respectful.

TTM, Stan: Ditto ...............

Just to be clear, my initial reaction to the "eating in Italy" comments was not so much a reflection on different communication styles between Europeans and Americans. I saw it more as Americans knowledgeable about Italian food in Italy as opposed to in the USA, pushing back against their compatriots thinking of Italian food as being mainly limited to pasta, pizza and cheese. I also have to admit that when my (Italian) husband and I wanted a break from Italian food, we went to a Korean place or to McDonald, so I saw nothing wrong with mentioning McDo.

I was surprised that those comments, most of which I thought were informative, were seen as rude by other Americans, to the point of reporting them to the Webmaster.

This led to my next thought: if it is so easy to be seen as rude I better be very careful how I express myself, maybe it's better I refrain from commenting.

I am slightly paranoid and started my career as a secretary in a psychiatric hospital, hence my remark about needing psychiaritric help. I hope everybody saw it as the joke it intended to be.

Anyway, I found the derailment into different communication styles very interesting.

My recent comment was written before I read the last 5 or 6 additions. I haven't felt so popular for a long time!!

@veerle3, the most offensive comment in the thread about eating American in Italy (which has since been deleted, I assume by the poster, and I don't blame them) started out "why would you think that....[the rest of the statement was something like, Italians only eat pizza or food covered in cheese]."
I'm not sure there is any way to interpret that response except that the person that wrote it thinks the original poster is stupid or ignorant. That's not an issue of "being direct". That's just ridiculing the original poster.
It would have accomplished the same thing to say something like "Not all Italian food is pizza" and then expound on that.
I thought there were plenty of other helpful comments in that thread, but that person jumped right into belittling the OP.
I think those kinds of comments are what the Webmaster was talking about. Not so much the directness that comes from cultural communication differences.

You like potato and I like potato

You like tomato and I like tomato

Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto

Let's call the whole thing off

But oh, if we call the whole thing off

Then we must part

And oh, if we ever part

Then that might break my heart

Happy Tuesday Webmaster!

Please stick around, Europeans! We need and value you. Some of the best advice I've read here has come from frequent transatlantic posters.

this isn’t really a forum for travel advice

To be fair, quite a few people have planned complicated trips using advice from the forum. Whether they are part of the "10-15" you talk about, well, maybe to some extent. However, in the year or so I've been posting here, several have joined, contributed, and had quite a lot of help.

The people who get the most from it are the ones who are willing to engage in the conversation on their thread. Putting up an often fairly cryptic or badly formed question, to which everyone makes poorly informed guesses about what they mean, or reads too much into it and starts making a critique, doesn't make for a good forum experience, especially if the OP disappears without a word. Quite a lot of people who post on here aren't particularly internet or forum savvy and don't know how move a discussion along to get the best from it.

Sometimes the tangents contain good keywords that spark an idea to do a Google search and learn from. I'll quite often post something that isn't immediately relevant to the OP, but I know that there's a few lurkers here and this site is spidered by Google and it might be useful to someone someday.

You're correct that the forum format has sort of gone the way of the dodo. I still like it and miss some forums I used to be on years ago. It's like a safe little sandbox if you engage with a community, away from some of the toxicity you might get on Facebook or X

The people who get the most from it are the ones who are willing to engage in the conversation on their thread. Putting up an often fairly cryptic or badly formed question, to which everyone makes poorly informed guesses about what they mean, or reads too much into it and starts making a critique, doesn't make for a good forum experience, especially if the OP disappears without a word. Quite a lot of people who post on here aren't particularly internet or forum savvy and don't know how move a discussion along to get the best from it.

Gerry, I think that’s it in a nutshell. Very well put. Unfortunately, I don’t think that we can force people to ask questions a certain way. Ultimately, if they want good answers, they’ll figure it out. But maybe it’s not worth it to some of them. Or like you said, those people who are not Internet or forum savvy, may not be able to figure it out.

I don't think it's fair to criticize posters for not knowing the ideal format for asking a question to maximize efficient and effective replies. It's unfair and unreasonable to expect the diverse universe of travellers to articulate to others' standards. We are who we are---diverse languages, diverse language abilities, educational backgrounds, travel and life experiences, etc.,---not to mention that not everyone has or takes the time to compose the perfect inquiry (or is hovering over the forum for answers like some of us seem to be).

Many regular posters/forum members do a good job of coaching or trying to walk a new poster through the planning/thought process to hone their travel goals and plans, and to help them think about what they may not have (which in turn can refine their information request). Perhaps reminding of/directing to RS content and reiterating/outlining planning considerations turn out more valuable to some OPs than the actual travel advice. It should not be hard to scroll on by if one's tired of coaching or frustrated with poorly formed inquiries.

I don't want to be mean to anyone, but there is a knack to getting good results in a format like this. It can be tricky to come in as a new person in a community-driven open discussion forum. I hope that I recognise when people are new and cut them a bit of slack, unless they're just here to say something outrageous.

If it's done right, you lurk for a while to get the lay of the land, post and then engage with the community in your thread. If you know something on another topic, contribute in someone else's thread helpfully. That's the ideal way to go about using a forum.

I had years on a Saab forum. I went in as a newbie, seeking answers, soon found I had knowledge I could share and ended up racking up a high post count. At the moment I have an unhealthy interest in Honda PCX scooters. I'm lurking, reading everything new and picking up on old threads on the Honda PCX forum. If I pull the trigger and actually buy one, I'll start posting then, already primed to check out a used one from the knowledge I have through lurking.

It's unreasonable to expect casual posters with a question about travel to do these things, and please excuse if I sound like a smug know-it-all posting like this, but I'm just drawing on what has worked for me in the past in terms of getting good info from forums.

GerryM, I'm wrote as much for myself as anyone else, as I have felt frustrated at times, too.:)

In addition, there are those of us who have an issue with being a little impulsive and sometimes write questions before we take the time to search the forum (I always forget to search the forum through google rather than the website) or formulate a good question. The idea comes to mind and we want to get it out there before we forget or our attention takes us elsewhere...

That being said, as Threadwear reminded elsewhere, the webmaster has a great intro when one sees it or takes the time to read.

I can't even stay on top of this thread anymore, and I've seen some reports. I'm locking it until I can get a grasp on it.... which is likely tomorrow as it's already late in the day here.