Reactions to the OP: A discussion for our contributing members

I am so very very grateful for the kindness, generosity of spirit, and helpful advice that I have experienced on this forum, time and time again. Thank you, webmaster, for reminding us - gently, yet firmly - of who we try to be for one another here. I would appreciate one clarification, please. Sometimes, a newer poster asks for advice in such a broad way that more experienced posters invite further clarification, asking for more info. You've asked us to please not convey the message that the OP is "not giving enough info." Could you give us some guidance about how to appropriately invite clarification from the OP? For example, I really love Florence, and if a new poster were to say "I'm going to Florence. What should I do there?" it is likely that I might respond "It would help me to respond to your question if you'd tell us more about what you like to do. Do you enjoy art? architecture? food? etc?" Is this the kind of response that would be received well by a new OP, in your experience? Is there a better way to address such a really broad question? Or should I just not ask the OP for further clarification, at all? I am so glad that I was kindly received and answered when I was just starting out on this forum (not so long ago) so I really want to respond to other newer folks with the same courtesy and generosity that I experienced - and continue to experience. Thank you!

Thank you! There is a condensing tone to many of the responses, which can make the OP feel ridiculed or foolish. There have been many times I have been embarrassed for both the OP and for the responder, and many times I carefully word what to say as not to be on the sharp end of the stick!
With that said, this sight has been invaluable in the help I have received from a majority of the participants who have spent the time to offer there help and expertise! For a few out there, please answer the question posted, not your opinion on how foolish the poster is going about things, many times there is a method to their madness that they don’t feel like explaining, nor should they need to.

It's too bad the forum doesn't have "stickies" where a message will always be at the top, because this is a perfect message to sticky.

To jmauldinuu,

"I would appreciate one clarification, please. Sometimes, a newer poster asks for advice in such a broad way that more experienced posters invite further clarification, asking for more info. You've asked us to please not convey the message that the OP is 'not giving enough info.'"

Thanks for bringing this up! If it helps, I'll take out some of the clutter in my tl:dr to address this: "Please do not... judge the content posted by the OP even if you perceive that person to be ... not giving enough info..."

I don't mean to say that you shouldn't ask for more info. You should ask for more info to help clarify the question so that better answers can be given. What happens too often is that the OP is effectively mocked for being too vague or not asking their question "correctly." My point in bringing this up is to urge patience with new travelers that may not know what you need to know to give a good answer.

(There's something very meta about this post :p )

Well worded webmaster! I have noticed this at times as well, the whole Schengen issue comes to mind, many times even when the OP is asking about something completely different!

I can relate to this and appreciate the reminder. One of my first posts (2011) was about something I observed in Europe and over a weekend it deteriorated into a very negative post. I sent a PM to another poster asking for advice and how to delete it, it was spiraling out of control. I wasn’t called a troll but it was so shocking to me that I didn’t post another topic for years that wasn’t asking only a travel related question. I was almost too intimidated to come back to the forum.

Thanks for the reminder.

I feel bad for the new people who mention Rail Europe or Eurail passes. When I was a new traveler, I used both - and still had wonderful vacations.

Thank you for bringing this up again. I don't tend to respond to the OP's question if I think it's 'lame' (that's in my opinion only :-) ), I leave that to others, bite my tongue, and move on. But sometimes it's hard not to respond to other posters' responses. I know I can get a bit sarcastic in my responses if I don't watch myself so recently I've been using the REPORT button much more than in the past, rather than responding on the thread. And maybe I'm reporting things that don't need reporting, but I figure better to report and leave it to the moderator/s discretion than to respond myself.

Webmaster - you are asking us to stop calling out potential trolls in responses, correct?

Emily,

Essentially, yes. While our community is quite good at identifying spam, we're not as good at collectively identifying what is/isn't a troll. Calling someone a troll when they actually aren't can lead to some really bitter exchanges. It can become a somewhat self-fulfilling declaration. "dnftt" and all that.

I definitely would like such things reported as "possible troll" if you or others are willing. If someone's here just to be inflammatory, we'd want to know so that we can investigate and make assessments. We have a few more tools at our disposal and can do so discreetly.

If you find that some sort of response is necessary (given all the usual conditions re our guidelines, which includes not feeding trolls), instead of naming someone as a troll, I'm sure that something else can be said to provide caution (for others) to what the OP is saying without furthering the issue or otherwise provoking an OP who may have genuine intentions. However, I'm not sure I can provide any useful guidance there other than "please follow our guidelines."

Webmaster, further to my post above, I admit that I have called out trolls and spam on this forum. Particularly on weekends, when oversight of this forum is limited. I’ve been right every time. I do this as a protective instinct, I would say. There is a lot of naïveté on this forum, which is not intended as an insult. Many people seem to be quite eager and willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, which is lovely, truly. I like to pretend that posters are my mom or dad, which makes me protective, I guess. Many people on this site also do not read things very carefully, as evidenced in the fact that several responses above seem to have already misunderstood your message. Reporting trolls instead of responding, sure I can do that. But when two or three days pass letting the troll get a last laugh, it is hard to remain a silent observer. I hope you understand.

Webmaster, thank you for your post. I am guilty of joining in on obvious spam posts and had no idea this could be read by someone who is not a regular as an attack. I apologize to anyone I've offended.

I do have a question. What the heck does TI;dr mean? I thought it was a typo in your first post but then it was repeated it so I figured it was something over my aging head.

Thanks for posting this, and reminding all of us to occasionally reflect and even reconsider!

It's always worth remembering none of us came out of the womb knowing all we'd ever need to know about travel (or anything else, for that matter!). We've all been lost, confused, uncertain, and unsure at some point in the past, and had to turn to someone else for answers. I consider myself a highly experienced traveler, yet still learn new things each time I come here. We can help others get the chance to learn, as well, by not scaring them off.

On the spam front, beyond the risk of mislabeling it, I suspect hopping in to a thread to call it out as spam might occasionally be counterproductive - doing so moves it back up to the top of the list of recent posts and actions, and might bring it more visibility than it ever would have gotten otherwise.

Thanks, Webmaster, for providing and maintaining a place for us to get together!

I support your general approach. To be honest, I think calling out of spam and trolls, while unnecessary, just report, is less of an issue. When a post does show, yes there are a handful of responses, but it either dies quickly or is dealt with by the moderators.

I do do get frustrated though by the following:

• Newer poster asks a valid question, and it soon takes a wrong turn into an argument on the Schengen rules, Itinerary timing, or insisting someone do it "this way", often very rudely. And yes, I have seen a number of first time posters driven off the board on these issues.
• Topics morphing from answering a question (usually done in a half dozen responses) to off topic chit-chat. If a thread has more than 20 responses...that is one of those. I do realize that over the years this site did go from being a "Help Line" to a "Forum" so some of that is to be expected.

As for suggestions, I think there are some I can offer.

• While the board is segmented already by region/topic, and the majority of long time posters use the "all topics" option; maybe a section on "general discussion" might divert some of the chit-chat. Let those who like to discuss back and forth do so.
• Maybe adopt practices of "locking" a thread, typically done by a moderator when the "question" has been sufficiently answered, or after a period of time; or maybe even by the original poster. I know the original poster can delete a thread, but it would be valuable to have those threads around, just no need to "add" to them.

Unfortunately, much of the issue comes down to self policing by the contributors. From my standpoint, I try to follow some basic rules:
- If someone asks a question, it is valid to them. You might gently try to steer them to another option, but answer the best you can without criticism, and if it is a common or repeat question, answer briefly or point them to a link.
- If the question has been answered, no need to chime in, unless you can add something significantly different. As I said, if a topic has more than 20 responses, probably no need to jump into the fray.
- If your buddy makes a comment, or somebody goes off topic and you want to respond, send a PM. Or, see suggestion above, start a discussion thread.

Pam, tl;dr is "too long didn't read" :)

Emily, the very scenario you've explained is one that I was thinking of when I said "others will disagree in certain situations" at the end of my OP. This is the exact sort of thing that requires a more nuanced approach. I don't wish to turn off that protective instinct. That instinct serves your fellow forum members well, especially as they may not pick up on something spammy, trollish, etc that you're picking up on. It is for this same reason -- picking up on something inappropriate that others aren't seeing -- that I urge caution because the optics for others reading along may be that you're being too harsh or critical of the OP.

I won't personally give you, Emily, a flat "no, never respond" in such situations as I think your argument justifies the need. For everyone else reading along, I don't say this to Emily to undo my point. We still need to do what we can to avoid the perception of bullying. Most forum members will find it much easier to avoid certain pitfalls if you choose not to respond, hence my general recommendation here.

"Pam, tl;dr is "too long didn't read" :)"

Hahahah, thanks! Well as one of the posters who frequently posts threads and responses that are too long, I'll say this never applies to me!

I think that this is a good post. While I try to be friendly and generally am, there are times that my tone could be better. I will be good in the future!!

I will say that I do appreciate the community here. There are many posters, too many to mention, who have given very good advice, and who have suggested excellent things to do. I appreciate Rick Steves and his staff who support this travel forum. I think that it is a very good place, but sometimes it can be a bit harsh on newbies. Let's all do better!

While I don't mind some intermingled chit chat as it serves to help coalesce the community (as long as we're not so off topic that the OP isn't getting the answers s/he needs), I pretty much agree with everything you've said, Paul.

"Maybe a section on 'general discussion' might divert some of the chit-chat"

We've gone back and forth on this. We've had a hard time defining what would or wouldn't be within the realm of acceptability. An open online space can invite some unwanted things... I believe someone in this thread already mentioned 4chan.

"Maybe adopt practices of "locking" a thread, typically done by a moderator... or maybe even by the original poster."

We do already, but its automated way out at 6 months. This feature mostly eliminated the issue of "zombie threads" as some of you may remember. We don't have the staff to do so manually when a thread has run its course, and who's to say when that is. Giving such a feature to the OP is a reasonable request, though I question whether such a feature would be used often enough by e.g. new forum members (who already aren't yet aware of most forum features) to make it worthwhile.

"If someone asks a question, it is valid to them. You might gently try to steer them to another option, but answer the best you can without criticism, and if it is a common or repeat question, answer briefly or point them to a link."

I really like your m-o, Paul.

Thank you for this post. Well said and a reminder that we should all remember to practice patience, good humor and good manners when posting questions or replies. We all started out as newbies once upon a time.

Thanks for the post. It is a shame we have to be reminded but it is long overdue. Often I see replies that could put off new posters.
May I suggest revisiting and rereading the first 6 points of the Community Guidelines?

Thank you, Webmaster Andrew

I applaud your sentiments and reminders.

This forum is a fun hobby in addition to learning about traveling or getting ideas whether you are an experienced traveler, intermediate, or just starting out.

Hopefully, participation can be more harmonious.

Thank you, Andrew. I'm guilty of this in the past few days (most recently) myself. My apologies.

Thank you for this. There can definitely be a "how can you be so stupid" vibe on this board, when in reality we should all try to go for a, "That's one way to approach it, but you might also consider Option B."

A great reminder for all of us.

Our first priority needs to be answer the question (if possible). There are so many different travel styles and preferences out there, that it can be easy to think that the way you travel is "the way" to travel and discount others. This attitude comes through quite a bit. It is good to reflect.

I've been thinking how to respond to this "discussion".

I take it seriously, as requested, but I don't see it as a consultation - where points of view are solicited and hopefully considered before a decision is taken - but much more as policy decision promulgated by and enforced by a powerful individual.

My previous description of us a free wheeling semi-anarchic bunch of knowledgeable lovers of travel has to be toned down so we don't - god forbid!!! - offend anybody no matter how absurd or ridiculous or dangerous their statement is.

So now every conceivable post is welcome - except knowledgeable replies from people, sometimes experts in their field, for fear that correcting a howler will be seen by a sensitive soul as bullying.

I am several time zones away from the staff, so I often see potentially dangerous posts much earlier than staff, as do several others of us.

To be told not to post warnings on obviously trolling or obviously phishing or obviously encouraging click throughs - lest other readers would see such warnings as bullying or be scared off - completely goes completely over my head. I simply do not understand how public service warnings can be considered bullying or scaring off potential posters (unless they are fellow trolls or spammers).

It is too bad that long time participants with deep knowledge - I've seen several leave in the last couple of years - have left.

I think that I'm not really welcome here anymore either.

I understand your announcement and I acknowledge your right to set rules for the board. But I want to ask a couple of tough questions:

Are you telling us that a known scam, like sleeping-gas-Tuscan-villa is none of our business and all of yours? Are you satisfied with the resources Rick has given you to police the board to your standards?

(Perhaps if the Report pop up input were changed to a Combo Box, certain common reports could automatically be routed to a less-experienced subordinate? And our reporting would be faster and easier.)

I recently asked a Venice poster to name his hotel because his “walking” question was useless without knowing where it was. I added “No one will abduct you because you post this.” When he replied, he volunteered “AirBnb” (which I wasn’t looking for.) And I refrained from mentioning how unshared AirBnb’s are known to harm infrastructures like Venice. Can you please review my work here? I’m sincerely viewing this as a supporting guideline for us! I don’t mind if you criticize other replies I’ve made.

Edit: Typo

I see it as partly a matter of tone

Q: What is there to do in X (world famous city)

A 1: uh, have you tried googling? There’s a billion things to do there and you didn’t provide any info. Do your research before asking!

A 2: there’s a lot, it depends on what you like. My favorite is the Y museum, the N food, and the Z park. What do you like - food? History? Nightlife? Let us know and maybe we can help.

A 3 : ignore question and not post anything because it’s too vague.

So, if I’m understanding the mods right, A2 is good, or go with 3. Avoid 1 because it’s rude and unwelcoming. I agree fully. Tone is hard to convey online, but that’s no excuse for being mean. A touch of extra effort goes a long way. Or just ignoring a question you don’t have the energy/patience to deal with that day (if you don’t have anything nice to say don’t say anything is a cliche for a reason!).

I feel exactly the same as Nigel.I have been on travel forums for over 15 years and joined RS forum a few years ago,but now feel I am walking in eggshells trying not to upset anyone on the forums. I honestly feel this forum has changed so much over the last year or two it was full of people who had at least some sense of individuality and were prepared to at least make some effort in trying to travel in an independent manner but over the last year or so the number of sensitive souls that have found their way to these forums is in direct proportion to the number of totally clueless travellers that can't seem to do even a basic search to get any information and ask the most banal of question without giving any information about themselves.

seriously maybe it is time for me to say goodbye.

I have to do some serious thinking about this and if I want to remain part of the "community".

Norma, Unclegus, Nigel, and Kaeleku have offered very good advice on many subjects to many individuals. It would a shame to not have their input in the future. Hopefully they will reconsider what appear to be plans to no longer participate. Just my opinion and hopefully no one is offended by it.

I have to do some serious thinking about this and if I want to remain part of the "community".

Norma - I hope you decide to remain in this "community". In a weird way, it is kind of a community. I worked remotely for over ten years, with about half my co-workers in an office on the west coast, and the other half working remotely from around the country. As a result, I developed relationships with people that I considered friends, even though we never laid eyes on each other.

I wouldn't say that I have made friends on this forum, but there are people whose comments I appreciate, even if I don't agree with them 100%. You are one of those people. I especially appreciate a PM you sent me in support of something I wrote for which I was getting a lot of flak, along with an admonishment from the moderators.

I think Mira hit the nail on the head - it is all about tone. I don't think it is forcing people to walk on eggshells to just expect them to treat others with respect. If you think a question is too basic or feel annoyed that someone didn't do their research first, just don't respond. No need to call them out for it. Surely it can be tiring to answer the same questions over and over, so if it doesn't interest you, just move on.

In my real life, people ask me questions about traveling all the time and often have done no pre-research or planning. Basically: "I'm thinking about going to Europe like you, where do you recommend? How to I start?" So I assume they don't know anything yet and recommend places I've loved, ask them about their interests, recommend some books. Often this is all they need to get started down the same path. Why can't we do the same here without belittling people for being inexperienced? I often feel bad about the harsh responses I see newbies getting. I guess I am old fashioned: "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all," and "treat people how you would like to be treated" and all that.

Again, I thought the webmaster was telling us not to call out trolls or spam. This isn't about people asking stupid or annoying questions, as some seem to believe. It isn't about tone or attitude. Yet somehow, this post has devolved into something that veers very far from the webmaster's intent.

Tl;dr version: Please do not comment on the the legitimacy of -- or otherwise judge the content posted by -- the OP even if you perceive that person to be ridiculous, overly fearful/concerned, misinformed, not giving enough info, or reacting negatively to something they experienced. This includes calling out perceived trolls or spammers in your replies. It is more damaging than is widely understood.

The issue: There is a perception that our regular contributors are bullying new forum members and other inexperienced travelers. I want
to make clear that there are no bullies here (the few that do appear
are banned quickly enough), but that doesn't mean that
well-intentioned members aren't contributing to this issue, nor do
those good intentions singularly excuse the behavior. It's on all of
us to be better so that all feel welcome to post their travel question
-- whatever it may be -- so that we're encouraging as many people to travel as possible. Such is the mission of our forum.

There may be a misconception in what the Webmaster is trying to achieve. Some threads can get out of control. Tone is very important. If you think a thread is really trollish, report it. Maybe write a simple, cautionary reply to alert some who may innocently click on a link. Some OP's may be legit - the mods can decide.

but I'm going to disagree about limiting "chit chat".
Who is to say what one person views as chit chat isn't valuable to someone else? There can be alot of value in the back and forth.

I may be wrong, and correct me Webmaster if I am, but I don't think that relevant 'back and forth' between responders and offering differing opinions to posted answers are what is meant by 'chit chat'. I think they are referring to discussions and/or arguments between certain responders that are not directly related to the OP's original question, and those that go on and on ad nauseam beating a topic to death after it should have died a natural death. If you have your options set up for email notification of responses,it can be extremely annoying and may even put off a newer member to keep receiving these notifications when no new relevant information is being offered. That's when it's time to take it 'off line' and switch to PMs. Just my humble opinion.

Emily, I have to disagree. The webmaster specifically said "Please do not comment on the the legitimacy of -- or otherwise judge the content posted by -- the OP even if you perceive that person to be ridiculous, overly fearful/concerned, misinformed, not giving enough info, or reacting negatively to something they experienced. This includes calling out perceived trolls or spammers in your replies. It is more damaging than is widely understood." Also: "There is a perception that our regular contributors are bullying new forum members and other inexperienced travelers. I want to make clear that there are no bullies here (the few that do appear are banned quickly enough), but that doesn't mean that well-intentioned members aren't contributing to this issue, nor do those good intentions singularly excuse the behavior. It's on all of us to be better so that all feel welcome to post their travel question -- whatever it may be -- so that we're encouraging as many people to travel as possible. Such is the mission of our forum."

Those statements very much have to do with tone, and people calling others out for questions they perceive to be ridiculous or inexperienced. He went on to say that some of this might occur when people try to point out posts they assume might be spam or trolls, but in no way did he say that was the main problem. I truly believe the heart of the problem is that people just aren't being kind. This happens on every forum and social media platform, unfortunately.

but over the last year or so the number of sensitive souls that have found their way to these forums is in direct proportion to the number of totally clueless travelers that can't seem to do even a basic search to get any information and ask the most banal of question without giving any information about themselves.

This sort of response is what the Webmaster is talking about. - "sensitive" "clueless" "can't do basic search" Some people are good at research and like to do it. Others don't. They may not know where to start. Name calling won't help the OP and sort of brings the thread into another realm.

It may be a good to share your own worldly expertise with people who aren't as well traveled and exposed to different cultures.

Giving good information but laced with unnecessary jabs sort of takes over the good advice. And people then concentrate on the negativity.

Leading them in the right direction may spark their interest to investigate further. If the OP really upsets you, then don't reply. I don't agree with the 'being overly sensitive or get a thicker skin.' It's really just about being nice and helpful and not overly critical. Find a balance. I think that is the goal the Webmaster hopes to achieve long term.

I'm not perfect, god knows, but if you want to see the unpleasant responses some face then look at anyone who asks about a rail pass. Some will explain why it might not be best value, but others (including a couple who've replied to this thread), will just sneer, insist only idiots buy rail passes and then stop before giving any advice.

Perhaps the worst responses are those who preen themselves over their great knowledge and experience and then write something like "if only you'd come here first". Very unpleasant, totally unhelpful and the opposite of welcoming.

I think the webmaster is right to admonish us.

I have heard all this stuff on other forums before and am seeing RS forums going in the same direction,, as to leading folk gently by the hand ,sorry but it is to late for that, the vast majority of folk coming on to forums should have a least a modicum of knowledge about how to ask forum questions after all they have been around for many years now and newer members should have an idea how to conduct themselves on forums, you may see it as holding their hand and gently leading ,I see it as having to wipe noses and rear ends , some folk are quite good at that ,me I tend to use the same bit of tissue for both, usually the rears first.

And sometimes any of us can be having a bad day and sound less friendly than other days. I was recently guilty of this. So I will pause before pushing that ‘add reply’ button and not let a person’s comments get under my skin. However, I will never be a bubbly person. 😳

I think it would benefit the forum if everyone kept their comments to no more than two per post. That might prevent the discussion from wandering from the question at hand.

I stand by what I wrote. I think a little kindness and some patience will be good for the morale of a thread. I'm not saying a person needs to be a pushover of sorts, but a little more understanding of the OP.

It does not bother me to give a run down for newbies or refer a link or two. For me, it's a fun hobby. As a lot of us know, this forum can be addicting when some of us should be doing something else....(joking inserted)

I still don't see a need for those to come on with a "gang-buster" attitude. It serves no purpose and redirects the thread into another realm. And, in some instances, has made the OP (whether new or not) shy away from the forum.

Oh dear, Webmaster, look at what thou hath wrought.

Yep, humans have bad days. Maybe that one, new poster wrote something that just set them off. So, they responded to that. (It's happened in a lot of threads) There are those who post sarcasm and an insult; then leave.

But here's the thing: If a post written is laced with negativity, insults or sarcasm, then how come the writer does not go back to re-read what they've written and perhaps edit it? It gives the impression they don't care how they come across. It would not take that long to edit a bit.

And being a public forum, the World sees it all. So, they may say to themselves, the heck with this. Not gonna get a beat down because I asked about luggage, euros, a train, a plane, or a bus.

I’m not here to make friends. I’m here to give constructive advice and feedback on topics that I have expert/local knowledge so that people use their money/time wisely. Tone is subjective.

As rail passes have been mentioned a few times now, I want to respond. I am particularly hard on this point as the information provided on this website is heavily leaning towards passes. Heck, they even sell them on this site. I feel balance is needed, especially as I see time and again posters assuming (from info on this site!) that passes are the only way to travel. It isn’t correct.

"The beatings will continue until morale improves."

I think it would benefit the forum if everyone kept their comments to no more than two per post. That might prevent the discussion from wandering from the question at hand.

Actually I think this used to be one of the community guidelines but it went away, I'm not sure why. I think limiting one contributor's responses to one or two is a good idea and a good way to keep the chit chat at bay. Of course there will always be exceptions, possibly when another member posts a blatantly wrong answer and it needs to be corrected.

sorry but it is to late for that, the vast majority of folk coming on to forums should have a least a modicum of knowledge about how to ask forum questions after all they have been around for many years now and newer members should have an idea how to conduct themselves on forums,

Well, I disagree with this. Believe it or not there are many people out there who have used the internet only for googling or for email and have never been on a forum like this one before. Regarding travel, many of these people are the ones who have never traveled before so never had to learn how to do some preliminary research before asking questions. These are the people who, in the past, would use travel agents exclusively but now find it harder to locate such a creature and so are left to fend for themselves. They will learn but it takes time and responses that mock or shame their inexperience do not help them to learn, anymore than a bad teacher who shames students for whatever reason will encourage them to learn.

And to all those who took offense at the Webmaster's post and are threatening to abandon us because they are feeling 'unloved' or 'unappreciated', I say "don't leave, you are the experts here, you are helpful and appreciated for your knowledge and willingness to share it, just stop and think how your response may be received before pushing that Add Reply button."

oh dear ,I feel I am being bullied because some folk are not agreeing with me and using parts of my posts in "quotes", I feel my snowflake self is melting into oblivion.

oh dear ,I feel I am being bullied because some folk are not agreeing with me and using parts of my posts in "quotes", I feel my snowflake self is melting into oblivion.

I love block quotes, don't you? Be careful Unclegus, your sarcasm is showing. :-) I know it and most of the members here know it, but a new poster who has never read any of your wonderful helpful posts would maybe not know it - and I think that's exactly what the Webmaster is talking about.

And now that I have respond 3 times to this thread, I will shut up.

Maybe someone can tell me how a question like this should be answered: "My husband and I are going to Barcelona in September. What should we see and do?" No further details are offered as to length of visit, no hint as to preferences, no clues as to budget, not a whisper about museums vs street markets. Is it OK to suggest a good guide book as long as it is done in a kind tone? Would it not be a kindness to offer websites to google? Would it be unkind to ask for more details?

Signed, Curious

Norma at least they said they were going in September

The Webmaster did not imply that a forum member cannot or should not ask relevant questions pertinent to the OP's inquiry.

Read the post. See if you can be helpful. Yes, sometimes, more info is needed to intelligently and effectively give a response to help the OP with their travels. I understand.

If you ask for more details and do not get an answer, then what can you do? You tried. It's up to the OP to come back and respond if they really want help. Or maybe they found their answer elsewhere or maybe they forgot their RS password, lol. I don't know....

I think the point of the Webmaster's thread is to just take a step back before being too heavy-handed with the replies.

Time for everyone to take a deep breath. There are far too many important things to worry about than how a person phrased their question to the Forum. Obviously, some people are better in asking questions than other people. If people get beat up when asking a question that could have been phrased better not only will they probably not ask another question other people might read the responses and be afraid to participate. I used to put people down who took tours until I took one. It opened my eyes that my advise I was giving about independent traveling is not for everyone. I hope this Forum will continue to be a source of good hospitable advice.

I was thinking about something Emily posted earlier:

I admit that I have called out trolls and spam on this forum.
Particularly on weekends, when oversight of this forum is limited.
I’ve been right every time. I do this as a protective instinct, I
would say. There is a lot of naïveté on this forum, which is not
intended as an insult.

While I don't believe I ever have or would publicly call out a troll by that identifier, I have publicly posted a short line when I've reported some of the spammers. It was done because of same protective instinct, and especially during those long hours/days when spam may be visible until staff can hit "delete".

We do see enough naïveté amongst posters for those of us who've been around the forum block a few times to want to support/enhance the credibility of the site as a community with travelers best interests in mind. The more nonsense sitting around for long periods of time without being identified as such, the less trustworthy our community/forums may appear. Thus we may comment because we care, not to be needlessly hostile.

To note: there was no way I was going to let a certain comment by (I'm sure) a troll slandering a long-term contributor as a pedophile go publicly unremarked upon over this past weekend ("Reported the poster above"). Without a lot of to-do, the newbies can be reassured that such behavior isn't tolerated here, even if it's visible for a few days. We have each other's backs when a situation calls for it, even our webmaster's when he can't be here 24/7! :O)

As far as tone, I sometimes think that we experience some cultural differences in how posters respond? Just as I've heard many times that American "nice" can be suspect abroad of being disingenuous, respondents who are by custom very direct may be perceived by our citizens as rude or intimidating. Just musing....

Thank you Kathy - you said what I was not able to get out cogently. My thoughts exactly.

As far as tone, I sometimes think that we experience some cultural differences in how posters respond? Just as I've heard many times that American "nice" can be suspect aboard of being disingenuous, respondents who are by custom very direct may be perceived by our citizens as rude or intimidating. Just musing....

This is spot on Kathy, when posting here I've had to adapt my tone somewhat to a more "American style". Most people probably don't notice but I have to mentally review my posts to make sure my "Spanish directness" does not put people off.

Directness and rudeness are two different things. It's not a matter of getting to the point quickly or even making your help in a bullet-point format. It's how it is delivered and the tone that sparks an eyebrow raise.

It has nothing to do with being a snowflake or any label put upon by a few. It's not too much about a person's broad shoulders, it's about the same courtesy and respectful tone you'd want extended to you. It is simple: Read the post. If you can help with your expertise, suggestions or whatever, all good.

Because the Webmaster and some others are of the mindset that insults, sarcasm, or other negative postings should be curtailed, you feel your freedom is challenged? So, is it to be understood that if some can't be insulting & overly critical, then they feel the forum is not for them anymore?

Why is it so difficult to be nicer or choose words a bit more carefully. Nothing to do with directness of one group or another. There are a lot of direct people who are in America.

He did not take away your freedom to be helpful. I think, paraphrasing him, he commends a lot of people for their expertise/knowledge and suggestions to many people.

I, for one, am tired of being scolded. See you another day.

Maybe someone can tell me how a question like this should be answered: "My husband and I are going to Barcelona in September. What should we see and do?"

I for one have made the suggestion that a guidebook be consulted for posts like that, and that the person do a minimal amount of prep work.

The best advice here in the RS forum pertains to a critique of specific choices. When open-ended requests are made, I usually don't answer, or request more info. Because I don't want to waste my time or theirs on posts which are wrong due to the poster's time on the ground, overall interests, number and age in the party, etc.

So, I agree that a request for more info is NOT rude, but is rather sensible. People need to put some thought into a trip for which they will be paying 4-5 figures.

I will quote just two examples of the sort of thing the Webmaster is talking about.

1)When I posted a potential itinerary for a 2-week road trip in Greece, one of the most knowledgeable-about-Greece forum members said, as part of her disparaging reply, "Have you LOOKED at a map?"

As it turns out, not only had I looked at a map, our final itinerary was very close to the itinerary I posted here, and we had a wonderful trip. We enjoy driving. (For example, we once drove from Massachusetts to Alaska and back.) We enjoy driving in a foreign country. It's part of our purpose when we travel.

There is a huge bias here against time spent getting from one place to another, as if that's not part of the real purpose for traveling. I disagree and find the condescending and superior attitudes about this off-putting.

2)When someone posted a question about going to Tangiers from Spain, several people posted very disparaging comments about the very idea of going to Tangiers. One person likened it to going to Tijuana (i.e. horrible). This is unfair and unnecessary. I very much enjoyed going to Tangiers for the day, and I wouldn't mind going back to Tijuana again as I was only there when I was 10 years old.

If these comments had been posted in a nice tone of voice, and as mere personal opinions, I wouldn't object. But they were presented in a very heavy-handed and peremptory fashion.

These are only the two examples that stuck in my mind most. But I see lots of this kind of behavior on the forum and I totally understand how it could drive away newcomers.

I agree with Nigel, UncleGus, emma and dear Norma on this. And, since Andrew has had to slap my hands only a couple of times over the years and 5,000+ posts, I don’t think I need an attitude adjustment. If you disagree send me a pm.

On the other hand, with the explosion of boomers retiring and more and more people following the same guidebook, is there anyone landing at CDG who isn’t going to Normandy? Due to the repetitive questions and knowing that 99% of the travelers won’t go off the beaten path no matter how unique an itinerary or site you lay out, I decided a while ago to answer very few questions from now on, only ones that may be difficult for others who haven’t lived where I have in Europe. Mes deux centimes.

PS—I also think there are numerous posters giving excellent answers to questions—hence, I decided on semi-retirement.

Hi all,
Lots has been discussed and I genuinely appreciate all of it. This is exactly why I wanted to have this discussion. In trying to bring up this complicated subject, the pendulum may have swung to the other side a bit. I'd like to respond to several valid points brought up by e.g. Nigel, Kathy, Norma, and more. It'll take me a while to do this in between other work here, so I'll respond as I can through the day.

Amen. People need to remember that you don't HAVE to respond to a post that bugs you (for whatever reason). Take a deep breath and move on. It builds character.

I would just like to respond to those comments about conversations that occur between those responding to a question. Some felt that they should not be part of responses but I disagree. These conversations may change the post from a q/a to a conversation but they add to the discussion and I feel help the OP. I enjoy reading them because they make me feel that I'm part of a community where people feel free to add their opinions and experiences. Though they may not immediately help someone, in they long run, they help improve my own travel experiences as these conversations add to my overall knowledge. So, please, to those who feel they want to leave, please don't. Your posts and responses are appreciated.
Also, I agree that if an original questions irritates me, I don't answer. Ok - I do share them with DH and entertain him with my thoughts :).

1)When I posted a potential itinerary for a 2-week road trip in
Greece, one of the most knowledgeable-about-Greece forum members said,
as part of her disparaging reply, "Have you LOOKED at a map?"

Marcia, out of curiosity I went back and read that thread where the comment which upset you was made? That comment was one single line out of a good deal of information that responder provided for your very first post. In addition, that responder was virtually the ONLY one who had offered up any volume of assistance worth mentioning but was called out for a tone which was "offensive". Very kindly but I have to wonder had that accusation not been issued if you might have received more assistance?

We enjoy driving. (For example, we once drove from Massachusetts to
Alaska and back.) We enjoy driving in a foreign country. It's part of
our purpose when we travel.

There is a huge bias here against time spent getting from one place to
another, as if that's not part of the real purpose for traveling. I
disagree and find the condescending and superior attitudes about this
off-putting.

But there was no indication on your post for that thread that you had EVER driven in a foreign country. The responder was likely and understandably observing the sort of cautious advice that's not uncommon for first-time drivers in Europe, who can have have unrealistic expectations for how long it takes from A to B. Sorry but I don't see how that sort of concern is "condescending"?

Addressing Nigel's comments first:

"So now every conceivable post is welcome - except knowledgeable replies from people, sometimes experts in their field, for fear that correcting a howler will be seen by a sensitive soul as bullying. To be told not to post warnings on obviously trolling or obviously phishing or obviously encouraging click throughs - lest other readers would see such warnings as bullying or be scared off - completely goes completely over my head"

I think it's clear from his response that Nigel feels his actions would need to be significantly curtailed per what I've said. I can see that reading into my OP, Nigel could think that in examining his own behavior. Nigel does more than you all know to protect our forum from abuse and spam. He is a huge reason why this community is as great as it is. I appreciate the self-reflection, but Nigel, if any individual embodied the issues that I'm trying to address, it is not you.

I've apparently cast my net too wide in trying to cut down on posts declaring an OP as a troll or spammer or otherwise casting judgement and the problems that can cause. I tried to explain earlier that my goal is not to curtail the protective spirit. There are outside forces out to wreak havoc that Nigel is focused on, and I'm simply not focusing on moderating those right now. Let's look at a few examples.

Part of Nigel's underlying point is that bullying isn't the issue of concern -- and he's right -- in the face of particularly bad behavior. No one is going to think that you are bullying when you're pointing out obvious spam (you're asking about touring Wales, but would you like to know about this Croatian taxi service? -1 post). No one will think you're bullying in Kathy's example where she eloquently handled a horribly slanderous post. No one is going to think that you are bullying when you try and set things right in the face of fearful and offensive babble about refugees and perceived safety.

However, even this example starts to ask the question... what assumptions are you making and what tone are you using in response? Are you making this situation better or worse by responding at all? Are you accusing the person of being a troll who's out to insult you and others, or are you assuming that this person may be vastly misinformed based on illegitimate media sources and your approach is to provide the right info without insulting their preconceived notions?

There are other topics that are equally difficult. How about gassing people while they sleep in Tuscany. Or calling it a scam when months after your trip to Italy, you're slapped with ztl fine. Or, maybe someone's upset with their experience at a hotel and their first forum post airs their grievances. I'm not saying that I prefer to have these subjects in our forum, but my point is that it doesn't serve well when the responses to the OP are harsh or dismissive of the legitimacy of the OP's question or experience. I think we've all seen the replies that amount to "well, you're an idiot because you didn't know X." Of course they didn't know... that's why they're asking! If you have to ask "is this a real question" -- and I know you've seen those type of posts too -- then just report it instead of risking insulting the OP when it is a real question. Avoid issuing judgment on the OP unless the misuse of our forum is really obvious.

As of now, this sort of judgment is happening at times when it isn't 100% obvious and only questionable. This is where the problem is because it's insulting people and it is causing moderation nightmares. Nigel's actions -- with maybe 3 exceptions in 20,000+ posts -- aren't insulting people. When it's not obvious, he sends a Report or an email and handles it discreetly so that the OP isn't admonished publicly. So I understand it when I see Nigel responding to say that he's taken aback, but that's because his actions are not the concern.

Norma brought this up:

Maybe someone can tell me how a question like this should be answered:
"My husband and I are going to Barcelona in September. What should we
see and do?"

I totally understand that this happens a lot and can be frustrating for those that answer these questions frequently. I think we've all witnessed some impatient answers given. All of Norma's suggested solutions (suggesting a guidebook, asking more questions, providing links, etc) are great.

There's a difference though (and this isn't on Norma, though you've likely seen posts like this) between a reply that says, "I'd start by getting a good guidebook for Spain" and "Get a guidebook." One suggests an approach to tackling the problem, the other can be received as being short with the OP conveying something like "don't ask your question here, go somewhere else for your research."

(I edited back some text here that was just toooo loooong.)

I hope it is becoming clearer though that at the core of all this, this is not a monumental shift in approach in our community. The things that you value about our forum remain.

What I'm asking for collectively is that we make sure that newer travelers are shown patience, the benefit of the doubt, and to -- as much as possible -- avoid openly questioning or ascribing judgment on the OP when there is doubt. This is not meant to be exclusive of your protective instinct that helps our community by helping those members not be duped by spam or drawn in by something trollish. There is a fine line between casting doubt and helping our fellow forum members, but I think that with greater awareness of the issues brought up in this thread, we are more able to walk that line in a way that doesn't have to feel like walking on eggshells. I hope you can agree.

Seems like you needed to say quite a bit, webmaster. Looking at the forum intro, I see a purpose is to "assist and encourage thoughtful travel to maximize your experience abroad." Perhaps you could assist us all - not just newbies - by compiling a list of the most frequently asked questions and answers, so we can all be spared the how to buy an Oyster, what to do with 2 hours at midnight in Heathrow, and which women's hiking sandals to buy? Other forums do this. Just saying.

Myself, I have found this thread enervating.

Hi Debbie,

We played around with providing FAQs years ago, but the problem was people weren't looking at them because people don't necessarily assume that their question is frequently asked. When someone is writing their OP, we do have a note about using our Search first. This seemed to be a bit more effective, but repeat questions do still happen.

There are several times I read postings in the forum and go "Not THAT question again" and then I choose to skip to something else. I often get frustrated when I see the same question by yet another new person that I have put out a comment on at least 20 times in the past month, yet still if it is something I am knowledgable about post my standard response again anyway. There are days I simply do not comment on anything because I am not in the right state on mind to be publicly commenting on anything. I admit that some of my postings since I started hanging out here may not come across as rainbows and unicorns, but I really do try not to be thunderstorms and destruction. The grouchy old professor has never been my style either.

Does anyone miss my comments when I don't make them? Probably not. I am only a small cog in the machine and if I went away forever it is doubtful anyone would even notice. Does this bother me? Not at all. I don't have an unforgettable character online, I don't see any reason to try to. I am just myself.

All that said, I do appreciate the comments most of the long time members here post. I find the side conversations amusing or informative (which option depending on what the topic may be). I hope those we always look forward to reading comments from and collecting their knowledge do continue to participate. But I also know that sometimes people's interest change and the environment changes and they move on to follow their hearts.

Until I am told my presence is no longer appreciated (and the OP that started this discussion does not appear to be that) I will continue to post when I find myself in the correct mental attitude of feeling helpful because this forum is a fun way to waste a few hours every day that doesn't cost as much a hanging out in a bar for example..

Suggestion for webmaster: To help new users, Under Getting Started>Tips for using... perhaps added a section with tips on what makes a good question to get a good answer. Give examples such as: When asking for hotel accommodations, give a budget. When asking about what to pack or clothing, include the season. When asking about what to see, include your interests.

That could help both the OP and the providers of answers and perhaps alleviate some of the situations mentioned in this thread.

Also under "Starting a New Topic", a reference to use the search function to see if the question has been answered would be appropriate. When viewing and reading the "Starting a New Topic" section, as soon as you scroll down reading the steps, the search line disappears from view. (On mobile site, you have to know to touch the four lines on the top left.) I remember that I didn't see the search when I first got on the forum.

There's a difference though (and this isn't on Norma, though you've likely seen posts like this) between a reply that says, "I'd start by getting a good guidebook for Spain" and "Get a guidebook."

Not sure that this is the best example, but I for one do most of my replies these days on a phone rather than a PC and this leads to concise rather than verbose phrasing.

My two phennig:
OPs who ask basic questions whitout any research, such “what are the top sights in xyz?” I tend to either ignore or reply with a question about their interests etc. If they are willing to engage in a conversation I am happy to help. If not I cant be bothered.
If OPs come here to rant about what a scam it was that they got a fine on the train etc. and that the ticket inspectors couldnt speak any English, well those people are jerks and I am happy to tell them that they are in the wrong.

Tom_MN - good idea, but I think it would only work with mandatory profiles. Most newbys, and many old timers too, don't bother with the profile.

Then there is the paranoia factor. People hiding behind single letter user names, one the other day was "." from ".", or just cryptic numbers because somebody might figure out just who they are and do something horrible to them. If they can't be asked to give a name beyond a single punctuation symbol I don't think they would answer your questions.

If and when I go back to answering questions I usually decline to respond to the silly names brigade.

Please do not comment on the the legitimacy of -- or otherwise judge the content posted by -- the OP even if you perceive that person to be ridiculous, overly fearful/concerned, misinformed, not giving enough info, or reacting negatively to something they experienced. ... It is more damaging than is widely understood.

Those that frequent the Germany forum have seen some of what the Webmaster is describing first hand in the last few years. Some examples:

• OP asks about car rental advice in Germany and gets responses about why they shouldn't rent a car and "I've been to Germany XXX times and never needed a car" (This is in the country that invented the car AND the modern freeway system AND has free autobahns)
• OP asks about Neuschwanstein and gets responses about how its a waste of time and not even a real castle (but yet it's still quite popular for a reason)
• OP posts their itinerary for feedback and gets responses about how they are just staying in the "American Comfort Zone" and not seeing the "real" Germany. (for the record, none of Germany is a simulation)
• OP states they plan to visit the Hofbräuhaus and gets responses of how it just for tourists (it isn't) and they should visit a "real" beer hall and usually recommend Augustiner Bräustuben (which is probably the second most touristy beer hall in Munich). For the record the beer in any hall in Munich works the same from my personal tests.

The list goes on. There even have been a couple of threads previously on this very subject: Here and here.

I think Carol summed it up best when she wrote:

All of us have different priorities and styles when we travel. ... It is time to stop judging other people's preferred travel styles on this forum. If you can give a helpful answer or advice, do so. If you just want to berate someone else and the values that he/she have about travel, perhaps you should just click on to the next question without answering.

My rules of thumb are:

• I try to answer the question asked by the OP directly and don't expand or editorialize. It helps to copy and paste the question in your response
• I only answer questions I have deep, personal and recent experience with
• If I don't like, understand or disagree with the question I keep my mouth shut and move on with my day. In the end people are going to do what they want.

DJ

I’ve been searching on this forum for information pertaining to my travels for years, and just recently decided to participate. I decided it might be like Halloween, more fun if you dress up.

I find this whole discussion a little disheartening. I understand branding, and this site doesn’t belong to me, so I’ll comply to its rules. However, I really enjoy when an individual’s personality shows through in the post. I even laugh at the snarky remarks. As a social platform, there will always be those that don’t agree. Isn’t the reason Rick is so popular partly because of his personality? I’m not suggesting attacking a person or bullying is ok, but a little sarcasm/humor makes for much more interesting post.

Additionally, I think it should be noted, the contributors here on this forum are offering years of experience, knowledge, and most importantly their time to help fellow travelers for free. I sincerely appreciate all that effort. I want to thank you all, even and especially those who feel they are being scolded!

DJ is it not ok to point out if you think an OP is making a mistake?
For example if they are planning a road trip to destinations that are much better served by trains? From this and other forums I have seen that for many Americans (and Australians) the car is the default mode of transport. If they dont know what an alternative might offer, but are only doing what they are used to, then I think it’s fine to point them in another direction, as long as you do it in a polite way.
Is it also not fair to point out that Neuschwanstein is not really a medieval Castle, to afvist their expectations. It’s still a marvelous place to visit, with it’s own merits.

DJ is it not ok to point out if you think an OP is making a mistake?

For me I try to consider is it really a mistake or just a preference different than my own? For example, if someone asks about having a car in Munich I'll give advice about how to find parking, expected costs and traffic expectations then I'll add that I usually don't have a rental car in Munich and give info on the public transport alternative instead if just jumping strait to why I think a car is a bad idea with no other constructive information. I think that is what the Webmaster is getting at with this thread.

To me a real mistakes that needs correcting are things like "I'm going to attend Oktoberfest in Berlin" (sorry, you are not), "My driving estimate from Munich to Salzburg is 90 mins" (please double that), "I want to go to Munich so I'm flying into Paris" (this was a real itinerary recently), "Recommendations for AirBnB in Munich" (not allowed), etc. Basically things that are just wrong or not possible.

The key for me is to not be bothered that someone else has a different way of doing things than I do (isn't learning part of travel anyway?). To each his own.

DJ

I think there are some frequent posters on this forum who are very seasoned travelers who post snarky and sarcastic comments. I ignore them and do not reply to their comments.

Yes, I think it is good to correct someone when they post something inaccurate. The tone of the correction is key. Please think about how you would like to be addressed if you were a newbie.

I recently went on a trip to Israel in late March. I have learned to pack light. I check one 22" bag with wheels and bring one carryon on the plane. The weather was so variable in Israel that I could have used a few other items to wear. In addition, Delta broke a wheel on the bag on the flight home. Now I have to buy a new bag, I prefer the 4 wheels. I'm thinking of a 24" bag with wheels. I wanted to write a post on the forum and ask for opinions of what bag to buy, etc. But, I did not because the prevailing wisdom on this forum is pack the lightest way possible, carry on only. I felt I would be belittled because, #1, I'm not doing carry on only and #2 I'm considering buying a larger bag. I like the forum and have learned a lot but there is a certain "groupthink" in which some people impose that one view on others without stopping to consider there are limits to the packing light philosophy.

One last thought: If you think the OP is an idiot, then don't write on the thread if the topic makes you impatient. Please refrain from showing your impatience.

A current classic example of someone's question being judged can be found here. The OP has asked a clear specific question about dinner cruises on the Seine; they know the advice about taking just a cruise and having dinner elsewhere, but they specifically want to take a dinner cruise nevertheless and want to find the best one. Most responses are that they shouldn't do it, not helpful.

Some quick hits...

Lynn, I like it. I'll see if I can craft something next week. I'm not sure how much it will change things as there are so many newbies that skip over the How to (and email me with questions), but every little bit helps.

Marco, "Not sure that this is the best example..." that's entirely fair. There are better examples.

Morten, "those people are jerks and I am happy to tell them that they are in the wrong." I don't actually disagree with you, but calling them out as jerks is what is contributing to the bullying issue. We do want the community to contradict such things, just not as aggressively as has been the status quo.

Tom_MN, it's not a bad idea, but I'd be concerned that the optics would be "Rick Steves, Inc is trying to gather data about me!" which we'd want to avoid. Perhaps we can simply do something to further encourage filling out one's profile.

DJ, thank you for sharing your understanding of some of the types of issues I'm trying to get at. We do want people to feel free to suggest alternate ideas as many are in that stage of planning, but trashing on someone's current idea isn't a desired thing. "for the record, none of Germany is a simulation" - lol!

Oreon, "I really enjoy when an individual’s personality shows through in the post." We're hoping that nothing will change re any member's personality. I am totally good with sarcasm and humor in general as that is my way in person. I hope you all find that it's reasonable to expect forum members to show their personality without doing so at someone's expense.

Michele, that is actually an example where I'd prefer the OP to be a bit more patient. The community was not giving the exact advice desired, but they were graciously giving relevant advice in case such advice would be considered. I understand the OP's frustration to have to repeat their preferred answer to hone in on what they want, but such is the way with this forum format.

And thanks for your reply, Tom_MN. ;) I might suggest that 48 hours is a bit limiting (weekends? people that give it a few days before remembering to come back?) as newbies especially don't have the habit built in to engage regularly. There are many other daily readers that can benefit from your good advice.

I wish that people would give more "thanks" posts, though this is tough for us to address. Newer members inherently aren't in the habit nor are they aware of etiquette here as manually writing a thank you isn't typical of most social platforms. Other social platforms address this via like buttons, emoticons, etc and there are issues with how that applies to a Q&A format. This forum also isn't like others in that we don't send a bunch of email reminders to OPs to remind them to return. Here's hoping we can find a good solution in future code releases.

Webmaster Andrew, is there any way of making the search box at the top of the page more visible? While our search function may not always work the way we might like, I do find that it's juuuuust helpful enough to think it might get more use than it does if more newbies can FIND the silly thing?

We will always have those gajillionth-time questions (Oy, given a nickel for every ? about Colosseum tickets on TA, I'd fly first-class the rest of my LIFE, not that I'm a member there) but worth a shot? Maybe it's my eyes but I've always thought it was really tough to see up there?

Hope this wasn't off-topic but those millionth-time questions seem to occasionally be a trigger for responses sounding more terse than maybe intended. I've probably been guilty of that myself. 🤭

Editing to add: what about a sticky at the top of each country forum containing a list of official websites for some of the most-visited attractions and websites for the rail services?

WMaster, as I'm understanding your remarks, its the tone of replies that is of concern, not the content. In other words, its OK to tell someone they're making wrong presumptions or that they should consider another option, just don't imply they're an idiot for asking a stupid question. Is that too simplistic?

a couple of suggestions: EDIT I see Kathy saying the same thing, while I was composing my post

(1) make the Search Function more visible. I didn't notice that gray box with gray letters for months. Perhaps make it more clearly identified as a way to search for previous questions on the subject. I didn't realize it would search more than the RS provided information.
(2) make the Search more functional. When I've used it, I find it more frustrating than useful. It seems to filter on only one or two keywords, rather than a more useful full question. Then it pulls up stuff in closest match form without regard to how old posts are, and that makes it difficult to find current discussions or posts you kind of half-remember and want to find.

(3) make the Travel Tips section more visible. If I didn't already know what was in it, I wouldn't know that its got a lot of the answers to FAQs that newcomers might find easier to use. And update it too, while you're at it.

I know you can't get people to do a lot of reading and searching when they want an answer right away. But it might help encourage more focused and informed questions. Its the extended conversations and discussions that are interesting to me, so its not just the OP that benefits from a variety of replies and chit-chat.

Well, I have been around this forum for quite a few years and enjoyed reading posts and contributing but this whole thread has depressed the heck out of me. Does a contributor really have to weigh mightily and at length whether his/her post might in some way offend the unreasonable and tender sensibilities of a very few others? Surely most of us are decent people not aiming to anger or hurt fellow members. Are we not all adults or are we a collection of easily wounded 14 year olds, complaining to Mom that brother Melvin stuck his tongue out?

It is not fun to be here now and that makes me sad. I guess I will just stay on the periphery and see how this works out. I hope for the best.

Although I have been posting less here lately, I still visit and contribute when I can. I like this thread theme overall as I often see snippy or snarky responses to questions. Sometimes they seem impatient with yet another basic question, and sometimes it is just a tone that can be read as snarky, and sometimes it is sarcasm that often doesn't convey well in writing. I also won't pretend that I am not guilty sometimes of a snippy comment, more often to other forum members that I think were rude to the OP or giving advice not asked for.

I honestly think this forum is pretty calm and polite overall. I've seen many forums that are pretty nasty. Even when some of us get snippy, it is rarely nasty. This is a rare oasis of internet forums for civility.

Having said that, I have a list of the most common snarky responses I see:

1. Repetitive questions that people respond ala "Do a search and find the threads that answer your question." When you are on a forum like this, expect to get the same questions over and over again. Either ignore them, or answer them. I'd say it's fine to also add, "a search will reveal additional information," but if your answer is just do a search, it can be seen as rude.

2. Questions about visiting X and what to see or do with a response ala "Do a basic Google search or buy a guidebook." Coming to this forum IS doing research, even if it would be more helpful if they had done some basic research first. Some people just don't like to look up and read things on their own - they would prefer to get advice from others. That is why there are here.

3. Sometimes there are some HIGHLY opinionated responses. "Why would you want to see that?" "That is a waste of your time." "Only tourists eat there." "Don't rent a car, ever!" We are all offering our opinions and people are free to accept or reject, but sometimes people appear dominating and overbearing. "If you are not doing it my way, you are doing it wrong" answers are pretty nasty.

4. Responses that don't answer the OP's question are not uncommon. I get that sometimes you want to steer someone away from a plan you feel might be the wrong approach. But there are ways to steer someone nicely, or acknowledge that they may want to rethink based on the answers they get. "Where can I park my car in Rome?" would be a good example. It would get lots of "Don't have a car in Rome!" responses. But we may later find out the OP will have the car as part of a longer trip or needs it for some reason left out of the post. A response like "There are parking garages ...here... or check with your hotel, but be aware that parking is hard to find and very expensive. Do you need the car in Rome?" would be far better.

5. The ones that are hard not to get snarky with are the "I got a speeding ticket" or "Should I pay my ZTL fine?" or the "I got fined on the Metro, its a scam!" posts. Those are often angry posts or looking for reassurance that they were in the right. I'm sure I get very snarky on those and I wonder how the Webmaster feels about those threads.

Lastly, I wonder if some OP's see repetitive answers as piling on or rude. "Should I have a car in Rome?" Don't have a car in Rome. Definitely don't drive in Rome. Why would you want a car in Rome? Don't have a car. So on and so on.... How many times do people need to say the same thing? Sometimes I see a thread and think, "Oh I can answer this one" only to find the question has been asked and answered. I have nothing new to contribute so I pass on.

Those are my perceptions, for better or worse.

Emma sums it up perfectly and hilariously. OMG, I must have viewed far too many episodes of Little Britain and AbFab if I can actually understand/appreciate her droll sense of humor! Henceforth, does every response crafted need to be 100% devoid of any semblance of personality to meet the specifications of the "new" forum?

I have a hunch there are a few lurker/semi-regular posters on the forum who get upset if any differing opinions/viewpoints are offered up that don't align with their views or their suggestions to the OPs. Aside from a Schengen pile-on that happened a few months ago, I've never seen any bullying by regulars. Seriously? How dull would this place be if everyone agreed on everything all of the time! For 13 years I've frequently sought to help newbie travelers and if I'm going to direct my "snark" at someone, it's typically reserved for someone who makes sweeping generalizations (like "Parisians are all rude!") or at those who get their feathers so easily ruffled if you dare disagree with them.

A kinder/gentler Norma is now mandatory for the "new" forum? (gasp!) Say it isn't so! In my 13 years on this forum I've butted heads with Norma on occasion, but I didn't go running off to the Webmaster spouting accusations of bullying. And even when I did disagree with her I could still completely respect and appreciate her no nonsense advice and the zingers she can lob.

It's feeling very much like the 'new' forum is striving to be as bland and vanilla as it possibly can be to appease the PC Thought Police. Yawn!

This whole discussion is really quite depressing.

But what about the significant number of people who have been self-censoring themselves - or going away altogether - because they don't enjoy being ridiculed, scolded and unfairly criticized for their preferences, their lack of knowledge or their naivete?

It seems that you and others dismayed by this discussion don't find that situation of any concern at all. People should have thicker skin, right? Too bad for them if they don't, right?

Apparently the webmaster brought this up to the community because he/she has evidence that this is having a serious (and largely unseen by the public) impact on the forum. What about that?

Nigel's actions -- with maybe 3 exceptions in 20,000+ posts

Oohhh, spill the beans!

I suspect, judging by the number of reprimands from the webmasters, that I may well be one of "those" being discussed. I accept that sometimes I can be a bit harsh or critical but equally I believe that I've offered plenty of advice. It does appear to be a difference in sensitivity and therefore whilst I can often see the humour/sarcasm in some of Nigel's, UncleGus' or Emma's posts for example it appears that quite often they are being misinterpreted. Is this a cultural thing?

I recall being admonished for a comment on a thread where the OP had initially requested advice on their proposed itinirary. The proposal was, to put it bluntly, ridiculous and many contributors gently advised the OP of this in more eloquent terms. However the OP refused to accept such wealth of experience and advice and continued to argue that their itinerary was doable and they were going to proceed, in which case why seek advice in the first place? It's occasions like that where I find it difficult to stop beating around the bush and respond a bit more bluntly. I don't consider it bullying, I consider it telling it like it is. If you're refusing to accept the advice that you've requested then what's the point in asking for opinions and advice if you don't like hearing what you don't want to hear?

There have been a number of occasions when I've got half way through a reply and then deleted it simply because there appears to be a degree of over sensitivity on this forum and it's not worth the bother of risking someone's outrage. There was one thread recently that was removed in its entirety due to, I suspect, a self depreciating comment that I wrote that someone found offensive. Personally I found it humourous in nature, evidently someone else didn't.

I've only recently discovered this forum and found it to be an enjoyable site to visit, it's one that I frequent the most. However if the interaction between forum members is going to be curtailed for fear of offending someone then I'm afraid I'm with Nigel on this one and would have to consider retirement.

Hope this wasn't off-topic but those millionth-time questions seem to occasionally be a trigger for responses sounding more terse than maybe intended. I've probably been guilty of that myself. 🤭

This is perhaps the biggest trigger for negative or snarky replies. Whilst I understand the search facility isn't particularly friendly it does appear that for many who are asking questions that have been asked hundreds of times before that they haven't bothered to do a search in the first place.

This can cause exasperation (it certainly does with me sometimes) and is often the catalyst for a less erudite response. Personally I like to research things myself before going to a forum to ask a particular question that I haven't found the answer through my own research and it irks me that some people don't do otherwise, it comes across as lazy, more "hey, I can't be bothered to do any research so can someone just tell me what I need to know". I'm happy to pass on advice and personal experience in my own time and for free but at least have the decency to undertake a bit of research yourself.

I'm like JC - I love planning my trips almost as much as taking them.

But if I feel that a question is unworthy of my profound insights, I don't reply. It really doesn't matter what I think of the question.

Emma: Learning about “the locals” which seems almost mythically
important to some, starts with the forum.

JC: It does appear to be a difference in sensitivity and therefore
whilst I can often see the humour/sarcasm in some of Nigel's,
UncleGus' or Emma's posts for example it appears that quite often they
are being misinterpreted. Is this a cultural thing?

Carlos: ...when posting here I've had to adapt my tone somewhat to a
more "American style". Most people probably don't notice but I have to
mentally review my posts to make sure my "Spanish directness" does not
put people off.

We touched on this earlier and yes, I DO think we have a cultural thing going on. Does anyone remember this thread?

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/netherlands/are-the-dutch-rude-or-direct

Emma makes an excellent point: if posters really are all that keen on meeting/communicating with locals and embracing their culture, then understanding local/cultural style of communication is part of the game? What may appear to them to be overly abrupt is normal, cut-to-the-chase direct in the responder's world. What may be taken erroneously as sarcasm is just humour (spelling intentional) in the wry - and often hilarious, IMHO - local forum.

I LOVED this comment from Harold in the Dutch thread:

My favorite comment on Dutch directness is from Lonely Planet: "This
is not a country to ask someone, 'does this dress make me look fat?'
unless you're really prepared for the answer!"

I think that everyone is kind of getting upset over this issue. Here's my takeaway, and my last contribution:

Be nice to the posters, and don't dump on them. This is especially the case for new posters (look at the contribution count).

Stay on topic.

Don't bring in politics (which I do occasionally).

I am several time zones away from the staff, so I often see potentially dangerous posts much earlier than staff, as do several others of us. To be told not to post warnings on obviously trolling or obviously phishing or obviously encouraging click throughs - lest other readers would see such warnings as bullying or be scared off - completely goes completely over my head. I simply do not understand how public service warnings can be considered bullying or scaring off potential posters (unless they are fellow trolls or spammers).

I missed this earlier from Nigel and I couldn't agree more. The number of times I've seen a post from a first time poster advocating tours in Thailand (with corresponding link) or India, Vietnam etc are inumerable and as Nigel pointed out he, and I and others, are several time zones away from the moderators who have the ability to remove such blatantly evident spam. To post a comment in response to the OP typically mocking their amateurish attempt at persuading us to click on their links is not only deserved but also serves as a warning to those who may not realise the post is spam. I only post such comments when it is clearly obvious what the intention of the OP is and no doubt use the same apporach as the moderators to reach the same conclusion.

I am not in the habit of accusing genuine first time posters as spammers or trolls (there has been one occasion and my instinct was correct as evidenced by the offensive PM's he sent me) and I can't genuinely recall seeing much evidence of this although I'm certainly open for correction on this.

Tom_Mn,
Groupthink happens a lot on this forum from the regulars. That is what I was saying in my comment earlier.

Michele included the link to the thread in which the OP asked for comments from ONLY the individuals who had taken a dinner cruise on the Seine. A bunch of people piled on and said don't do it! Exactly my point. If you don't agree with the OP, then move on.

I have been intimidated to post a topic because of the groupthink here about packing light.

With all that being said, I still enjoy the forum, I read the sarcastic remarks - I don't think they will go away. It's human nature. But, I exercise my freedom of choice and ignore them. I have reported some comments on occasion.

There are a lot of regulars I enjoy reading who are kind and give good advice and answer the questions asked.

Keep on travelin'!

I will definitely try to be careful what I say, but I'm concerned that the attitude of "don't offend new posters" is just contributing to the overall snowflaking of discourse in the U.S. No one, including me, has a constitutional or moral right not to be offended. It also appears that as a generalization, our UK regulars have a different take on this than does the Webmaster, and if I were posting a question, I would find their insight as locals way more valuable than his/her concerns about my possibly being offended.

That being said, when people post questions that can easily be answered by reading the appropriate RS guidebook( "what are the must-sees?" are the worst), I ignore my desire to tell them to do their own homework and keep my mouth shut.

Nobody has suggested that personality isn't permitted in responses. Nor that opinions can't be shared, even strong ones. The problem, and I don't believe it is "cultural" at all, is that some replies are, quite simply, rude, self-regarding and condescending.

The problem with justifying rudeness by claiming it's "humour", is that most of us aren't actually as amusing as we like to think we are. There seem to be several regular posters who fondly believe they are the forum's answer to Morecambe & Wise, whereas in reality they seem more like Jim Davidson. And, yes, my choice of British personalities here is deliberate.

And I can be just as bad too, I know.

I'm someone who is relatively new to this forum, and I can emphatically state that I hope no one changes a thing.

I have spent countless hours researching my own trips here, mostly by reading older posts and sometimes by asking my own questions when I can't find the information I'm looking for in the history. The responses from contributing members are overwhelmingly helpful, and I love when I get opinions, likes, dislikes, alternatives, along with facts.

Sure, there are a few instances of rudeness/curtness here and there, but people are people, and people have bad days, and some people speak more directly, and some people just have poor communication skills. Plus, it can be really difficult to convey one's intended tone through a brief, written message, especially when crossing nationalities, cultures, and native languages. When I see those few cases where a response hasn't been helpful or it seems like the writer is irritated, I assume the tone wasn't intended, or if it were, that person is just having a bad day, and I move on without taking offence.

I do feel as though "you can't make everyone happy" is 100% true. If this forum is successful and people continue to join and have dynamic, pertinent exchanges -- and I believe it is, given the number of new-ish posters I have seen lately -- then why dumb-down the tone if a few people are driven away? How many more people will be driven away if existing contributors, with their valuable input, leave?

I too have spent time on Fodor's, TA, and other travel forms and I keep coming back here to get information I can trust. And the reason I can trust is is because the folks who respond to the questions give their opinions and reasoning along with the factual information. When I know WHY someone recommends a site or an experience, then I can form my own travel choice accordingly. Often, along with opinion, comes personality, and I happen to really like that aspect of this forum.

I would hate to see "seasoned" contributors dropping out because they feel like they need to watch their words. Please keep the words (all of them, especially the ones with some personality) coming.

And thank you to everyone who contributes your time and expertise; they are greatly appreciated!

I am a bit amused that a few members are saying "I am going to take my ball and go home." Why are you being so sensitive?

However, there is one particular member that I have lost all respect for after reading tons of rude and unhelpful comments. I am happy to stand up to him, but I do believe he has chased some new people away from the forum.

For the rest of you, please don't go.

I just answered a question about how to go from Bruges to Cinque Terre (!) Many posters on this thread would read her two sentence question (I mean, reading between the lines) the same way. Because of this thread, I actually wrote:

These two cities are not well-connected. Because Brussels is well-connected to Bruges and Paris, you have an itinerary problem. You are also facing increasing train prices for close-in purchase. If your luggage size makes a bargain airline affordable, that's reasonable, but you then have airport transfer times and security lines to contend with. Some bargain airlines use remote secondary airports (Like Charleroi instead of BRU) that are tedious to get to. If you provide a list of all the cities you hope to sleep in, you may get better advice.

But I think the OP would have been better served - in terms of constructing a realistic plan when it is already too late to do what she wants for her 12-year old son and herself:

You haven't posted your entire itinerary, but it's clear that you are trying to hit all the places you most want to see, in a single trip to Europe. They are just too far apart, and you are too late to assemble such a complex trip-and you'll be paying a lot of walk-up fares, instead of advance-purchase discounts. Please post your itinerary so we can help you salvage the trip.

Now, I chose (for the sake of discussion) "mean" words like "salvage" and "you are too late" at the extreme end of how I might normally write. But I want to stimulate a discussion of the best interests of new posters. Is it to feel warm and welcome, or is it to get the straight-dope on their plans? I'm not telling the Webmaster how to run his board, I'm asking?

If it’s a really safe space for the newest, most inexperienced and maybe most insecure of travellers relying on volunteers probably isn’t the best way to go.

What you and others don't seem to understand is that it's not necessarily new travelers or insecure people who are affected by this dynamic. I have been traveling to dozens of countries for decades, and in real life I am quite well known in certain circles as a very successful, unconventional expert who holds her own against the tide. However, the tendency of some members to blame people for their mistakes and to impose their own preferences in a heavy handed way has kept me from posting some of my questions and experiences.

And what that tells me is that this forum is therefore driving away both questioners and contributors in ways that are unseen by those who enjoy "being themselves" without thinking about their impact on others.

Thanks Nick! You made me laugh :

The problem with justifying rudeness by claiming it's "humour", is that most of us aren't actually as amusing as we like to think we are.

I have to say I'm amazed that a post, which essentially asks people to be polite or even just civil, is receiving so much backlash. The posts I have seen, which I feel the OP/Webmaster is talking about seemed quite clear in their language, not a mistake of culture or lack of appropriate feeling coming through, if you ask me, which you didn't, but there are my two cents anyway. Now some people are sounding like the old, 'Well, I'll take my ball and go home if you won't play my way." So be it. This forum does not thrive based on the few, but on the many, so it will live on and other, hopefully, polite posters will surface. That being said, why not just stay and be civil and enjoy giving out helpful information with a little less judgement?

PS. Sorry, I didn't see Vandrabrud's use of the above quote. I didn't mean to be redundant or steal.

I applaud the Webmaster for trying to infuse greater civility, tolerance, and patience into the forum and creating a dialogue that hopefully encourages some introspection. Everyone has blind spots about their own behavior and this forum benefits from a diversity of viewpoints, including from newer members. Some change and evolution is good to discourage the types of groupthink and tribalism that unfortunately you do see here quite a bit. It's important to step outside yourself once in a while and think about how you may be coming off to others. It is indeed odd that the most offended folks here - the ones who are most argumentative regarding the Webmaster's rather uncontroversial and civil plea - are the ones who treat others perceived as "sensitive" with derision. That's the Golden Rule in a nutshell. Tone is not "subjective", it's actually quite easy to recognize and interpret a certain tone because it's a very intentional, direct way one chooses to communicate or shows their attitude toward something. Tone is not an accident. If tone was truly that randomly interpreted, there would be no way to discuss world literature or art, or conveying a message in a poem or other text in books that are translated around the world. People "get it" when someone says something like "I'm not here to make friends". It's pretty unambiguous what that means, and I don't mean that in any normative (judgmental) way. Downplaying its use in communication just doesn't sound convincing. Also branding someone as a snowflake or overly sensitive has never made things better, that I know of. It just makes the other person retreat back into their "camp" instead of encouraging dialogue (it's an ad hominem argument essentially - insult the messenger while diverting from the merits of the message itself).

Why old timers want to bend every new poster (unaccustomed in the ways) to their will is a bit puzzling too. It's like trying to bend a spoon. I can't tell whether the poster who said he would delete a message when not given proper thanks within a self-appointed timeframe is kidding or serious (and unless you're an old time poster, you truly don't know someone else's personality). It seems like people are treating this forum almost like a job (they feel they have to reply even though they don't, and that the world would be remiss without their tutelage) and they now exhibit the kind of jadedness that comes with working someplace way too long. They feel disrespected, and now the boss is giving them a perceived scolding. Come on folks, this is just a voluntary travel forum. It's supposed to be fun, and giving advice should be self-reinforcing (and even joyful for some). Relax. You're taking this way (and probably yourself) too seriously. If you woke up on the wrong side of the bed one morning, take a day off from the forum. Take a few. It will do everyone some good. The forum fatigue manifests itself in some weird ways. We get a heaping of some really marginal content like a whole 100+ post pile-on because someone somewhere out there stated they liked Olive Garden, as if it were a crime to have "less refined" tastes? There was literally an argument over a random stranger having a benign, meaningless preference they don't like. That was considered a "great topic" although it had all the attributes of a troll topic and the typical internet faux outrage about matters that hurt or inconvenience absolutely no one. The problem is that for everyone who looks down on someone or their tastes, there is someone else who would look down on them too. It's a lose-lose.

There is a real nice group of folks on this forum and some grumps too (who don't realize it). The Webmaster is simply appealing to the grumps in us to soften our sharp edges (i.e. tone) once in a while. It's totally worth a shot.

I'll weigh in as a frequent traveler, semi-regular reader (a couple times/week), and a rare poster. Often when I read I think there is a lot of criticizing and "my way is better than your way" in the answers, and it really takes away from the value of this forum. One post that specifically comes to mind (and that I did respond to) was when a poster was traveling by herself to Amsterdam (I think) with a toddler and was looking for tips. The number of people who responded "don't do it" was a shame. If you don't have tips, just don't comment. Or maybe comment wishing her well and asking her to report back.

I think "assume good intent" is also a good rule. I have the feeling that many new travelers posting vague questions are looking more for conversation/connection than specific tips. They may be feeling excitement about their trip and want to connect in a travel forum - it's fun to have back and forth about things you're interested in. Anyone can Google a question and new posters know that. What they're really doing, perhaps, is just dipping their toes in the conversation waters. Welcome them warmly instead of shooting them down.

Well said Agnes.
I often wonder if people chime in on a subject not to be constructive but to drive their number of posts up. It seems that the more “posts” a person has, the more credibility they will appear to have.

Agnes - is love to know who the grumps are. Do tell!

Okay, I have to go back on myself. Upthread I said I had posted 3 times so would now shut up. But I feel compelled to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Agnes' post. I won't quote any of it because it was all good. Read it through, you may see yourself there. If you do, you know that it's you who should change, not the newbies asking uninformed, naive, and sometimes ridiculous (in our opinion) questions.

And for those who appear to be upset that they can't make rude or sarcastic remarks on perceived 'troll' posts because they see them earlier than the Webmaster, if you read the community guidelines, and in my opinion it's the regulars that should know these better than the new poster, you know that suspected troll or spam posts should be reported, not responded to, so REPORT it. So what if it stays out there for a few hours before the Webmaster/s delete it, the world won't end. And if it includes a link that you think may be dangerous, just respond that others should be wary of clicking on any links. No need to call the OP a troll or a spammer or make rude remarks. I've seen many posts where someone simply responds 'the post has been reported'. That's all that's needed to be said on those posts. And I'm sorry, but saying you're going to leave the forum because you feel you have been 'scolded' when you didn't deserve it, well to me that sounds like you're the ones being overly sensitive so you should know how some newbies feel.

To the webmaster

Morten, "those people are jerks and I am happy to tell them that they are in the wrong." I don't actually disagree with you, but calling them out as jerks is what is contributing to the bullying issue. We do want the community to contradict such things, just not as aggressively as has been the status quo

I would not straight up call people jerks, even if I just sometimes think that they are. I will just tell, them if I think they are wrong without the name calling.

@Kathy

We touched on this earlier and yes, I DO think we have a cultural thing going on. Does anyone remember this thread?
https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/netherlands/are-the-dutch-rude-or-direct

Ok in that one thread I might have suggested that the OP had acted like an idiot.

Morten—that was neither rude nor directed at the OP. You said you are in the position of the rider daily and what you would do in the same in this situation. You simply answered from a rider’s point of view. Multiple and contrary viewpoints can be constructive, IMHO.

And here’s what crossed my mind as I wrote the above: Oops, got to be careful, lest someone thinks I’m purposely increasing my response count. Ciao. Ciao—oops, some may think that’s too continental. Definitely feel hamstrung after reading this thread.

Morten, I wasn't being critical of you! Had just posted that thread link as it seemed to be a good example of some cultural communication stuff.

I really appreciate that this forum has a loyal group of European posters who must spend hours replying to posts. I have learned so much from them, about travel, about culture, about words, about many things. They have enriched my trips and they often make me smile when I read their posts. I’m not going to name names because I’ll forget someone, but many have replied to this thread and I want to thank them for being here.

I got a “ spanking “ for saying troll and using the adjective inane in my deleted post. Reply was regarding bringing a space heater to London.

My reply to Andrew might have generated this whole
“airing out.”

After an initial 10 minute pout about possibly being perceived as a bully I moved on.

Just now reading all the comments. Interesting read.

I’ll be less pithy and forthright in the future.

And yes I’m still posting.

I am a bit amused that a few members are saying "I am going to take my ball and go home." Why are you being so sensitive?

It's nothing about being sensitive personally but rather not wanting to tread on eggshells because others are too sensitive.

It's very difficult to offend me, I'm a retired police officer and whilst dark humour kept me goingbthrough most of my career I wouldn't bring it to a forum such as this. However, there needs to be a balance and there appears to be many people on here (or perhaps it's the same old few) who lack a sense of humour and/or are easily outraged.

It isn't a case of taking my ball away and sulking but if people can't handle a bit of constructive criticism or don't hear what they want to hear and go running to the webmaster why should I and others devote our time to providing advice. To my knowledge I have never been rude or insulting to anyone on this forum (well apparently once but I repeatedly read my post and can only conclude that they were ridiculously sensitive).

Ok, am just going to post now so I can up my post count and look more knowledgable.

Seriously, though, for those that think people on this forum do that, then imagine you answer one post per day for 12 years. How many posts will you have? (we won't talk about "he shall not be named) You will have 1000's, just like most of the regulars or oldtimers. (eeek)

Now, what if we want to lighten things up a bit? That is what the chit chat is for. People get to know each other better, some of us even become friends. I prefer to do my chatting on FB, but not all of you are on there.

Have certainly had my share of admonishments from the Webmaster, but have also received some really brutal attacks from posters both on the forum and in personal messages. That is just the way things are online. I can get upset and leave, or carry on, perhaps change the tone or words I am using, though sometimes it was just someone being a ...........(fill in the blank) All I know is that it stopped. My guess is that the Webmaster dealt with them and they moved on.

The forum would not be the same if the regulars weren't here. We would miss Nigel and Norma and UncleGus and anyone else who thinks they aren't appreciated. So, please stay.

Off to bed now and you all can post some more so I have something to read with my coffee in the morning. Thanks for sharing!

A couple thoughts...

Do any of us speak/interact with someone we just met the exact same we we do with friends? I know i don't. I can call my friend an arse (or worse) and he or she knows I'm joking and we laugh. Even said with a smile, I would venture a guess I would not get the same reaction from a new acquaintance. I think the webmaster is asking us to treat newbies as, well, newbies, and not old friends with whom we have built up a relationship.

Second, even more than judge and jury, the webmaster is the legislative, executive, and judicial branches all rolled into one. We can choose to abide by the rules as set forth, or decide we can't live with them and move on. We all post here at the pleasure of the webmaster, as it were. And, yes, I understand that the vast majority of content on this forum comes from the members, but this forum will go on after any of us depart. Might not be as good, but it will still be around.

Third, the webmaster states the mission of this forum is to get more people to travel. (It might also partly be to get people to become Rick Steves customers, but that's strictly conjecture on my part.) People leaving this forum after posting a first or second question, and getting a response from someone who (euphemistically) "doesn't suffer fools gladly", is just bad for that mission.

After reading this thread, I'm now afraid to post to newcomers. I know a little about traveling in certain places, mainly because I was once a newcomer in those places. I even just posted a new thread about taxis in Rome, b/c I have not been to Rome in awhile.

But here's the thing - I try really hard to be helpful. I have found certain travel forums to be awful. This is one of the few places that I've found to be kind & helpful (even if I didn't think so originally b/c I posted a poorly worded question.) But I am not sure now what to post other than the most generic of replies - "I liked this hotel" or "I liked this" which may or may not help the OP b/c they may be like I once was - uncertain what to say or how to say it.

Hi
Just my two cents...When I was working my boss would call us all in and give us a talking to (not as diplomatically as the webmaster) about some item or another. She would state not all of you are doing this or that but it has been noticed. Well, I was the type of employee that followed the rules and think did I do this or that and would be upset. Basically, a couple of bad apples were upsetting the cart and I was one of them. Thank you for the information and don't take offense if in your heart you know you are not the one doing it.

Why/how did this get 'unstuck'? Anything to do with the helium shortage and it can no longer 'float' at the top?

My apologies for off topic chit-chat, but digging to find topic this will be an unreasonable amount of work. :-)

It's still a stickie at the top of the General Europe forum - well, at the top except for a new one the Webmaster has added addressing FAQs. I haven't read that one yet but I will.

if you spend enough time on this forum you know who the experts are...you can just ignore the rest. When I see a post calling me uninformed or ignorant...I know they are not being helpful...and I move on.

we should add a system that votes for the best replies to a post...currently it looks like the most replies gives you a badge...it should be the most helpful replies...just a thought

I don't care if the person has posted a thousand times or 10 times...was the information useful

Also, I like the discussions that talk about things like mistakes made when traveling. It really helps to emphasize moving from location A to location B. It might take an extra 4 to 5 hours when traveling on your own...as opposed to travel with a tour group when transportation is guaranteed and tour guides are with the group.

I have to say I'm amazed that a post, which essentially asks people to be polite or even just civil, is receiving so much backlash.

Agreed. Also agreed with Agnes's posts.

I would say though that it is difficult for me to believe that anything that Nigel has ever posted (even 3 out of 10,000!) could be rude or ill-considered!!

Oh well, off to fight the rain on my walk to the grocery store. What a dreary May we're having here in Paris!!

Douglasjmeyer, I'm sorry to say that I disagree with much of your previous post. For many Americans, travelling by car is habitual and is part of the American psyche. A first time visit to Rome by an American who has only ever considered travelling by car would be a hard lesson to learn if he were to do so uninformed of the reality. To not advise him not to do so, even in a perfectly polite way which is often the case, is to do him a disservice and defeats the purpose of such a forum. To not warn him is setting him up for failure. To simply advise him, "collect a car from FCO airport, drive into central Rome and find a parking space close to your hotel" is not helpful, quite the contrary.

Critical advice is intended to assist the inexperienced or naive traveller, not to belittle or intimidate them. I can think of only two contributors to this forum that act in such a way, everone else simply has good intentions when providing advice.

I was wondering if maybe some of the posters who ask questions, which you feel could be answered with a quick internet search, are nervous travelers and want some reassurance from experienced travelers. We’ve been traveling independently for years but I still get nervous about things, such as will we have enough time to get from point A to B since we never were there and don’t know where we are going. I once booked a bus from Bratislava to Budapest for 9€ pp and was plenty nervous about that ride. It turned out great, but if I didn’t get reassurance from posters here that the company was legit I probably would have taken a more expensive route.

Also, as an older adult, I am not good on the internet search sights as others are. I still can’t get google street to work for me. Therefore, I rely on other people’s advice and trip reports. I learned about the SCAVI tour here about being patient waiting for an answer, not to send multiple emails annoying them. That is something you can’t read about on their website.

What I am trying to say is, please don’t leave the forum because you feel slighted. You help more people than the few who complain. Those with thin skins either toughen up or leave the forum. But those of us who skim over the rude responses or get the sarcasm really need you.

Perspective of a newbie: Longtime lurker, until a year and a half ago when I began planning my first trip to Europe.

What’s the purpose of this forum? To me, it’s a valuable tool to prepare for something that you have little to no idea of what to expect. I read the books, and scoured this website. This forum was more valuable due to the knowledge of the experts here. I don’t care how they express it, as long as they pass it along. And I appreciated them taking the time to do it.

The written word here sometimes comes off different to different people. There is no voice stress or modulation. So if something comes off a little rough, I let it go, like in real life. So what. I try not be rude or unkind in every day conversation, even though I’m told sometimes that something that I said was rude or unkind. Happens to all of us. Let it go. Don’t make an issue of it. Apologize if necessary.

I went to Austria and the Czech Republic. Quickly identified the experts, those who knew what they were talking about. Read everything they posted and planned our trip in large part based on their recommendations. I can’t thank those people enough for that trip turning out to be an amazing success.

The point being, there are a lot of us out there that don’t know what we don’t know. Where I live, you avoid public transportation, if possible. No trams, no passenger trains. I had to wrap my head around the concept of clean, safe, reliable public transportation - until I saw it. It was great. But maybe you take for granted some things that others can’t understand. It takes some explaining. It may get tiring explaining it time after time, but think of yourself as a teacher, teaching a new group of students.

And I agree. You are doing a disservice if you don’t point out to someone if they are making a mistake. I’d rather someone tell me that I’m making a mistake than sit back and let me carry on.

Agnes, you nailed it as usual. But what is most amazing this time is that you get the agreement of both sides of the spectrum.

Well done.

Grump? Who? Me???? NEVER! Wellllllllllllllllllllllllllll, sometimes.... maybe. But I am very guilty of one of the stated crimes. Sorry Mr. Webmaster.....

You guys do realize that the webmaster is either right or within his rights? Mostly just right.

And, since we are throwing out "what if's"
What if the question was:

I am spending 2 days in Prague, then 4 in Vienna. Can someone
recommend a car rental agency so I can drive between the two?

My answer might be:

First of all, you might consider more days in Prague than Vienna.
Second, unless you are going to spend a few days visiting the
countryside between the two cities, the train would be a lot easier
and a lot cheaper.

I didnt answer the OP's question. But a lot of Americans are use to driving every place and if its that mindset affecting the decision, they would be helped knowing there are options. A similar question might involve the train from Prague to Budapest. I would throw out the option of flying. I think its a better option; not that the train is wrong.

Sometimes you cant expect someone on their first trip someplace to even know what questions to ask. I know I'm that way and I appreciate when someone takes me down an unexpected path.

This thread is annoying and I hope we DONT lose some of the posters who expressed thoughts about leaving - they are mostly the ones with good answers .

This forum is certainly a very tame one compared to other travel forums I go on , very “ vanilla “ as another poster earlier referred to it .

I rarely see any rude answers .

I thought the thread pointed out about the Seine cruises was absolutely fine , and I posted on it , I had no issues with other posters suggesting it was a waste of time - how on earth can that be hurtful - that’s their opinion, and any post on the Moulin Rouge you’d get me saying “ don’t bother “ .

I’ve been scolded before , and frankly while I do try and abide by the “ rules “ I do sometimes consider this a “ nanny “ state .
I ONLY report posts that are racist , bigoted , or involve name calling ( or obvious spam of course ) - I think running to cry “ I’ve been bullied “ because someone tells you in response to your plan to drive from Amsterdam to Nice
in 8 hours after arriving that morning from a 10 hr trans alantic flight is not a good idea , is being a big baby - there I’ve said !

This thread is annoying 

I am loving this thread!

I agree with so many opinions here, and others, well, not so much. It's actually the first thing I go to in the morning, hoping there have been new posts overnight.

😀

A classic example of not answering a direct question is the repeatedly asked question regarding tansportation to Tangier for a day trip from Spain. Most people who have been have reached the conclusion that Tangier is not worth the effort, it's not a good representation of Morocco and there's little to see and do there other than being viewed as someone to try and rip off. This of course does not answer the OP's question of how to get to Tangier however it does offer information to the OP that they may not have considered and provides an insight from another point of view, surely the point of such forums?

Of course there are people who do enjoy Tangier and their views and experiences should also be shared, that way the OP is in a better position to make an informed decision on whether a trip would be suitable for them. Simply providing information on how to reach the ferry and where to go to buy a ticket etc may answer the original question but is it truly informative. I'd much rather read other people's reviews of places to visit, eat, transport to use etc, even though it is all entirely subjective you can usually come to some satisfactory conclusion having read enough reviews.

You are doing a disservice if you don’t point out to someone if they
are making a mistake. I’d rather someone tell me that I’m making a
mistake than sit back and let me carry on.

Absolutely agree, RNH. I'll carry that one step further and agree even if you just suspect that they might be getting themselves into a situation. What a traveler is used to in the States can be a very different animal abroad. It doesn't hurt to anticipate that a poster hasn't completely done their homework or just missed something important? Far from making them feel like an idiot - not that I've ever seen anyone actually sling that insult at a poster - consider it value added? It's that integrity and credibility factor again.

We know that at least half to the majority of the time we don't get all the pertinent info needed in an OP's first post to offer up best advice. If it sounds like someone is about to go blithely off without having done the homework - and some desperately need to! - I can see why some cautions might be more direct?

Plain old text can be a really horrible way of communicating information.

Back in the days when the internet was inching its way out of academe and usenet had only recently replaced telex, carrier pigeon and smoke signals as a way of communicating over long distances, I had a college professor who claimed that you can lose as much of 90% of meaning when you go from face to face conversation to words on a computer screen because things like tone of voice, volume, body language, context, etc. drop by the wayside. For those familiar with the American South, think of the phrase "Bless their hearts" which seems to have 100+ different meanings and it took maybe five years of living in theSouth and South-adjacent before I felt like I could pull it off in conversation and convey what I was trying with it.

I've tried to keep that 90% reduction in mind over about 25 years of online interaction. Sometimes it works; other times not so much.

And I do agree about the groupthink tendencies here. I'm an unapologetic global fast food chain consumer/pack heavy and check it person/fan of chain hotels/consider rental cars as one of many possible useful tools sort. Because sometimes you just hit the wall an want a Coke with ice in it, or a hotel with better air conditioning than charm (even Rick recommends his fair share of chain hotels in his guidebooks), refuse to do laundry in a hotel sink, and can have a rather rambling style of travel in the countryside that isn't well-served by train or bus.

Part of the reason why I stick around here is that I am a contrary sort and do feel like standing up for the poor souls who just want a nice cold Coke at some point and saying it's okay to hit the Burger King at the train station for one. (And note that, hey, 90% of the folks in that Burger King are EU sorts so in its own way, it's an authentic European experience and all.)

Selkie, add to your list of contrarian things you enjoy my personal favorite: taxis to the hotel from train station or airport when you have luggage in tow(although I am into the packing light competition).

Like you, I don't feel the need to have an atmospheric hotel-location, AC and elevators are what I want. It's a vacation, not an endurance contest. Bless our hearts. But we can take the side eye we might get for our preferences.

A classic example of not answering a direct question is the repeatedly asked question regarding tansportation to Tangier for a day trip from Spain. Most people who have been have reached the conclusion that Tangier is not worth the effort, it's not a good representation of Morocco and there's little to see and do there other than being viewed as someone to try and rip off. This of course does not answer the OP's question of how to get to Tangier however it does offer information to the OP that they may not have considered

And to me this is a perfect example of the problem here! And exactly what the webmaster is trying to change! When you ask a specific question and people pile on to discourage the premise in the question (which does not contain a "mistake" in any sense of the word "mistake"), then it really takes the users aback and makes some of them not want to ask questions any more.

As the webmaster said:

It is more damaging than is widely understood.

It's far different if someone asks, "Is Tangier worth the trip?" In that case, go ahead and answer the question.

It's also far different if someone is asking questions about being in Europe for a year and it looks like they don't know about the Schengen rules. That counts as a "mistake" and is valid to point out.

And PS, I am a very seasoned world traveler and I enjoyed going to Tangier on the ferry.

Selkie,
I take a taxi or car service to and from the airport because I want the convenience when I'm loaded with luggage and jet-lagged or going home. My suitcase for Israel weighed 22 lbs. which I think qualifies as lightly packed. My roommate's suitcase weighed 49.7 lbs. I didn't have enough changes of outfits to match the cold, rainy weather there. I had packed too light! I'm going to go against the groupthink on this forum (even though I love the forum, overall) and buy a 24" spinner suitcase that I will check. I will have a little extra room for more changes of clothing.
I also like hotels with AC and elevator but I do like charm. I plan to buy a bigger suitcase now that Delta knocked off the 4th wheel of my spinner on a flight home from Israel.

I live in the South and never use the term "bless your heart". Just sayin' and I hardly ever hear it spoken anymore, except for here.
Thank you for your comments, everyone! I learn so much from this forum.

It's far different if someone asks, "Is Tangier worth the trip?" In that case, go ahead and answer the question

But some people may not feel the requirement to ask a question in such a way. They may not have undertaken any research that would give rise to the possibility of whether such a trip is worth it. Some people just follow the herds without questioning why they want to go to 'X,Y,Z' in the first place. A typical example is The Cotswolds or Stonehenge, two of the most popular destinations for American tourists but for many they don't know why they're opting to go there other than everyone else seems to go. That's why you end up with a number of people stating that they didn't really enjoy Stonehenge or thought it was a waste of time. Is it wrong to ask people why they want to visit a particular place just in case they may be one of those doing something simply because everyone else does? In which case surely it's in their benefit that you can be in a position to explain perhaps why they might not enjoy it.

From my experience, a lot of people want to go to Tangier simply to say that they've been to Africa. I can understand the temptation in travelling all the way from the US to Spain and then be so tantalisingly close to another continent and if that's all you want to undertake the journey for then fine but I can think of far better ways to spend one of your precious days in Europe. Personally I think it's only fair to share my opinion of Tangier and allow the OP the opportunity to consider whether it's worth the journey just to set foot on the African continent or spend the day in Spain doing something much more worthwhile. I wouldn't tell a person not to do it, I simply give my opinion on the place, explain the common problems with strong winds causing delays and leave the final decision to them.

People ask for opinions. People give opinions. People are offended by the opinions. Please, can we just stop now?

I ONLY report posts that are racist , bigoted , or involve name
calling

I have never seen a racist or bigoted post on this site. Which is why I am glad we have the moderator that we do. Name calling? Only a few ocassions of someone calling someone else a racist or biggot. I have seen a few inadvertent statements in which words were not as carefull chosen as they could be. But nothing intenetional.

And, even if the Webmaster didnt answer my question, I find the conversation useful.

People ask for opinions. People give opinions.

No, that's not what this is about. Not at all. People often come here to ask for information. When they receive opinions instead of information, the forum is doing them a disservice.

Information: Where do I get the ferry to Tangier?

Opinion: Should I go to Tangier? Is there anything good to see there? Is it typical of the real Morocco?

There's a significant difference there.

Marcia - I don’t think you have understand my point. People ask for opinions on this site all the time. Should I...., What do you think of.. People then disagree with offered opinions, sometimes even the OP. I find it all quite hilarious.

Hi, I've been hanging back, but I'd like to weigh in on Marcia and JC's points. We are absolutely OK with sharing information or opinions that the OP didn't necessarily ask for (as long it's reasonably on topic, etc). Such info may help the OP, and it may help others reading along. It may not end up helping the OP. That's OK. The OP can skip along to the next post. This assumes that there is a mix of posts and that some are directly answering the question. On the flip side, only getting e.g. 10 replies saying "don't go" to Tangiers -- when the person is saying they want to go -- isn't helpful and can collectively come off as badgering or belittling.

I appreciate both your arguments. There is a middle ground.

I agree with JC that perhaps the most valuable thing you can do is suggest to a new traveler that one of his underlying assumptions may not be correct, or that he is proposing to use precious vacation time trekking to a destination that most folks have found to be less-than-wonderful. New travelers don't know what questions to ask, and their tentative plans may be based on input from one-time travelers who saw a handful of places 20 years ago. If the only place you've been seen in Morocco is Tangier, how are you going to know there are so many wonderful alternatives, and if you haven't been to Andalucia, how will you know that a day each in Cordoba, Seville and Granada is so inadequate?

I agree that it is polite to try to answer the specific questions asked by the poster. There's always room for disagreement, aside from which the poster may have really solid (but unmentioned) reasons for visiting a particular place or using a particular form of transportation. I know many on the forum would consider me odd for taking a 7-1/2 hour bus ride from Granada to Valencia without even investigating the possibility of flying.

This morning there are 2 posts that I think are seriously taking advantage of the "not calling out trolls" policy, because there's no way they can be serious.

If you ask a question and the response you get back is 10 people saying "don't do it" then its probably quite useful advice to think about, even if you subsequently choose to ignore it for your own resasons. As long as the responses are politely put I struggle to see how it is "belittling". You asked a question and alot of people, many with practical experience, think it's a bad idea.

I agree that if your question is, "should I go?" then it is not belitting to get 10 people saying "don't do it." The point is that if you ask "how do I get from point A to point B" and 10 people say "don't go to point B," then that is where many people feel they've been maltreated and will want to go away. They failed to answer your question and instead implicitly or explicitly criticized your question.

But it depends on the context of the A-to-B question? If it's, say, for a day trip that we know is going to take an unreasonable amount of time each way, most of us would advise against doing it at all before getting into the "how" stuff. Not all A-to-B questions are equal. Does that make sense?

At this point, I am beginning to wonder if f it would be OK to discuss how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

There is phrasing and respect that can answer the person's A-B question and still include advisory opinion. For example, "using Rome2Rio you have bus, plane or train options to get from A to B. Train and bus take 4 hours each way and scheduling is only once in the morning and once in the early afternoon for return. Airport is 90 minutes from town meaning 3 hours plus flight time plus airport time. Some would find the 6-8 hours of transport to be excessive for a location that often is reported as disappointing and not meeting expectations. You may wish to consider making it an overnight visit rather than a day trip; or deferring to a time you can take in other cities in the area."
I would hope that this builds a scenerio that allows them to make the decision with more information than they started with. It is also impersonal thus less threatening but realistic in that specific time and options are included.

A simple comparison.

At my work, I am considered an expert in what I do. Ignore me at your own risk.

And yet it happens all of the time. For all kinds of reasons. My “opinions” are inconvenient, expensive, someone read something on Google that was better, ........

I state my case and let them go. Just don’t come back to me to clean up your mess when your way didn’t work, was more expensive, or created a lot of problems to deal with.

If if read on here that 10 people, the experts, are advising me not to do something, then maybe I shouldn’t do it. Unless I think I’m smarter than they are. Now there may be an underlying reason for wanting to do something out of the norm, and that’s ok too. As long as you’re willing to pay whatever the price there is to pay.

But I want those people advising me not to do it.

Because I’m planning another trip. TIA. (Thanks in advance)

Time to bring an end to this discussion. Just about everything that needs to be said has been said.

Just stumbled across this thread. Haven't made up my mind yet how to react to it (and if I leave, being a less frequent poster than lots of the people commenting here, I would probably not be missed). But there are several aspects I'd like to note

• Yes, there is a difference between "American politeness" and "German politeness" (similarly, "politeness" in many other European countries, which is often more direct than in the US). While this is an American site, excluding those used to the "European" communication style does not seem very wise.
• The regulars provide a free service, which I believe gives them the moral right to use their own style in doing so (as long as they are not directly insulting others). Of course, the owner makes the rules, but the users decide whether to post here.
  • I am actually astonished how often people get answers who are not willing to do any research themselves. Not checking the FAQ and the past few topics before posting yourself is impolite everywhere on the net.
  • I like and use sarcasm :-) Trying to keep it to a minimum, but this does not always work (and depends on my mood). Though I was never notified of that, a sarcastic remark of mine disappeared from the forum. I do not regret it, as I think it was the right response to the OP.

Wow, what a thread.

I’ll give my input. I’ve been on message boards for a long time and they’re just not as popular as they used to be. So, many times a newbie isn’t not only new to travel, but new to message board culture. In the past, a travel newbie might post here, but they’re a member of an automotive message board so they’re familiar with how to ask a good question.

We also have the continuing differences of opinion between those who travel the RS way and those who don’t. So, that can cause confusion for the newbie.

The car question is a good one. I assume a newbie isn’t familiar with European travel and may have the perception that they can speed though Europe like they’re going from Des Moines to Omaha at 70 mph, crank the tunes, and then find parking everywhere.

Another topic that I think can cause some conflict is that many Americans just don’t live in big cities like Chicago and Washington DC so they’re not as familiar with urban life like I am. I think that causes the endless Oyster card questions because they’ve never used a train before. Each city’s transit system has their quirks, but they’re all basically the same.

I think the Meet the Locals myth comes from Rick’s tv show. Yeah, he engages with people but they’re also getting paid and filmed to do it.

Anyway, I will continue to proofread my responses to newbies and make sure they’re polite even if I’ve answered the same question often.

Please, can we just stop now?

Time to bring an end to this discussion

Guess I'm not sure why you feel this way. I don't know about others but I'm finding this thread endlessly interesting and enjoy reading everyone's opinions including most of the later additions. If you don't want to read any more, just don't open the thread when I new reply is posted.

I live in a major tourist city in the US, have for over 30 years, and I'm no "expert" on this city. I just have a bit of knowledge. I would have to devote my career to tourism here to begin to consider myself an expert. None of us are experts, merely more or less informed. Anything I contribute is just personal observation.

I probably read at least 10 threads on this forum for every one I post in, and it is a fact that many new travelers respond to unasked-for advice received here by making substantial changes to their original plans. I do not know whether the percentage who respond that way is 30% or 70%, but it is obvious many posters have thought the advice offered made sense for them. It is clear to me that limiting responses to the posters' specific questions would reduce the value of the forum, and the missing information would often be the sort that really matters.

Even if a poster continues with his original plan, whether because he is convinced it is right for him or because of non-refundable expenditures, I contend that the information provided may still have value. If the trip turns out to be less wonderful than expected, there's a possibility the poster will realize a different approach might have produced more enjoyment and try again rather than giving up on Europe entirely. If the trip--as originally planned--turns out great, the poster has the satisfaction of knowing his instincts were right and should be able to make confident decisions about future trips.

After reading the entire thread, and in my experience on the forum, for me the main point of contention is tone. I have no problem with directness or sarcasm (I am both direct and sarcastic), but there are many times when I read a question from an OP, roll my eyes and start formulating a response, realize that my response has a disgusted tone, and then wonder why I even care to respond at all, and so dont. Oftentimes this impulse is combined with wonder at the patience of the people who actually have responded, until I read some of the responses and see that several have that disgusted tone. I have cringed for the OP at times when reading the tone in some responses. I agree that Information requests can be answered with opinion replies, but I think in that case, tone should be paid some attention, because an opinion telling someone they are planning something ill-advised is at risk of a 'what a dumbass' tone. On another private forum I have been a member of for 15 years (we all 'know' each other), we still sometimes couch what we say with a qualifier because print can be easy to misunderstand. A simple "Gently... that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard" goes a long way to changing how something is heard. Beyond that, I agree with everything Agnes said ;p

Just a few additional reminders for those reading this far.

Everyone has their own reasons for travel, their own desires, background and constraints that might not match yours. Some are traveling with kids, others are mobility challenged, some like to drink and eat local food, others are fascinated with architecture and don't care about restaurants or shopping and so on. When you answer questions, please don't assume that your own priorities are the norm and are therefore most likely shared by the person asking. They may not be.

"What is worth visiting" and what are worth spending time or money on are not objective matters. Therefore your own experience, however broad and deep, may not be all that helpful to the questioner when you are making assumptions about values that they do not share.

At the risk of inciting incredulity, I will give you an example. My husband comes from Asia, was brought up without religion and never studied art, architecture or European history in school. I've been to Paris four times so far and would happily go back again. However, on our last European trip of 7 weeks, my husband was completely content to spend only one day in Paris, which he had never visited. We made a list of all the places he wanted to see, and we checked off every one in a single long day. That's enough for him for the rest of his life.

Maybe this is an unusual example, but aren't we all unusual in one way or another? I hope so!

Therefore, please be careful when making blanket statements when people ask a question without providing very much background information, when you reply along the lines of how much time a place is "worth" or that a place they've asked about is not "worth" seeing.

Thank you.

How are you supposed to find all this out if the OP doesn't tell anything about themselves?

You don't need to find all this out. Just be a little humble in the way you reply and provide information.

Instead of, "XYZ place is worth at least 5 days," you can say, "If you're interested in A, B and C, then XYZ place is worth at least 5 days." Similarly, instead of "DEF place isn't worth visiting" you can say, "If you're looking for G, H and J, then DEF place may not be worth visiting."

These are small changes, but make a big difference to the person asking the question and others reading the thread.

However well-intentioned, I think that trying to agree on the nuances of exactly how to respond to a stranger seeking advice is like death by a thousand cuts (that's why the Community Guidelines are not overly prescriptive on this, and leave a lot of room to navigate). Assumptions on what is the most helpful, efficient answer to someone's problem are made by both sides based on very limited information, and they made not be correct. But it's inevitable with new posters, and even more seasoned ones. We can argue forever about every conceivable minutiae of a response but it would be like trying to diagram a complex sentence in grade school (painful) - and in the end, there would still be disagreement and it still wouldn't be from the OP's perspective.

The Webmaster is simply asking people to not rough up first time posters and to be a bit more diplomatic and less suspect of someone's intentions. Let's start by clearing that (low) bar. I'm very much in favor of not trying to control or shape the content of people's responses as long as they clearly adhere to the (very loose) Community Guidelines, which includes not being straight up rude (this is easy to spot). That leaves the most room for variety and people's personalities to shine through, which I think is desirable. I vote for the OP to be the best judge of whether a response is helpful to him or her, not anyone else. They typically vote with their feet. If they like or find the forum helpful, then tend to come back (or end up staying).

In interpersonal relations in business you ask three questions: Is is true? Is it necessary? Is it kind?

There are a lot of naive questions from newbie travelers, or from travelers whose experience has not reached that of others. True questions, but it is not necessary, or kind, to respond with anything but kindness.

Stupid questions/trolls/bogus posts may exist, but so do many annoying things that are not necessary to respond to. Only if not responding could "harm" someone do I think it is necessary to speak up and then only as kindly as possible to elicit the true issue.

Based on "The takeaway", are people calling out trolls and spammers so often that it required the webmasters post? The few times i have seen it, they really were trolls or spammers. I agree at times you may need a thickish skin on this board as some responses can be a little salty, but it is JUST a travel forum. If someone does not like the tone there are plenty of other travel forums. When you read the forum, take what you like and leave the rest!

"It's JUST a travel forum". Yes, it's just a travel forum, but its intent is to help travellers, and it should be a place where people can safely post questions and receive helpful replies. Sometimes, these helpful replies might have to point out to the OP that his/her plan doesn't make sense, or that he/she needs to do some research first and then come back with a more specific question. As others have noted, these responses can be done with a helpful tone. I imagine that the Webmaster made his request because the organization doesn’t want people to go to another travel forum. They want people to use this forum, and they want this forum to be a helpful community of travellers (which it mostly is).

Two countries separated by the same language.
Chris-S is bang on, Europeans have a very different way of expressing them selves. To me being told to be 'humble' sounds very patronising.

I agree with caro.

Can Marcia clarify herself please? You ask for humble but you seem to mean verbose. Taking a short answer and making it pretty. Is that what you mean?

Wow......
Without taking any offense, the initial request is clear and makes sense.
There are posters here (in this thread even, myself included) whose replies to topics are sometimes unkind...it's a fact. As someone that has travelled more than most folks ever will, I've been annoyed with replies from time to time and I know that I've passed that along...
Practice basic cordiality and kindness. Re-read before hitting "Add Reply" and if you are not adding value, move on. No one comes to a forum with the honus to save the internet community from their ignorance, real or perceived. If you think that is your job, perhaps you need to find a new pastime.

but this obsession with safety seems a very American thing for this
European guy.

That's because you're taking the word literally. I assume the poster meant that someone should be able to ask a simple question without being berated or attacked (again, not literally) or referred to as a troll. You probably haven't been on this forum long enough to see instances of this. Some first time posters who pose what are perceived to be naive questions are discounted for the sheer reason that this was their first post (as if everyone did not start out with a first post at some point). In other words, there's a noticeable bias against first time posters if their questions don't meet the expectations of long time contributors (some of them are actually not trolls but their communication style or question is still seen as suspect). My own take on this is that if you suspect someone is trolling, either report it (let the Webmaster decide) or, preferably, move on and don't get involved. Responding negatively is worse than not at all, especially if you're wrong and you read the poster incorrectly.

Interesting example of the forum working. A woman wrote in asking if she was crazy to think of taking 4 kids under 7 YO to France for a week in December. 3/4 of the responses were "you're crazy". She has asked in the title "Am I crazy?!"

She did a short trip with the same kids, and it was not successful. She changed her plans to go closer.

That was a case where people expressed their opinions, and it might have helped the poster make a decision.

If any of you have watched Rick Steves on his TV shows or on his blog, etc., you know he is not a sarcastic or negative person. Therefore when you answer a question or post comments on a thread on this forum, just think "how would Rick answer this question"? Would he be sarcastic or belittling or have the attitude of "how can you be so stupid"?
After all, this is his website and his forum.

Just a suggestion - What would Rick say or what would be his attitude? if you are annoyed by someone's questions, then move on.

We all can discern a negative, sarcastic or belittling tone. It's like pornography, it's hard to define, but we know it when we see it.

I think this is all the Webmaster is trying to accomplish, be mindful of your tone when you write an answer or comment to a poster.

I've never watched a Rick Steves program, well I did try and watch one on Portsmouth but I found him `a bit patronising and somewhat annoying that I gave up.

I discovered this site because of my use of another travel site where Rick Steves name kept popping up, I didn't know who he was so I searched him up and voila...encountered this site, read through some of the forums and felt it was my bag so decided to stick around for a while. Most people in the UK and Europe in general have no idea who Rick Steves is. So for me to ask myself "what would Rick say" I would have no idea. All I know is from what little I've read about him and those posts that describe his travelling style I can say with certainty that I do not follow his style of travelling, quite the opposite.

My purpose on visiting this site has absolutely nothing to do with the man, I don't watch his shows, I don't read his books, I don't follow his travel style but I do love travelling and I do enjoy providing advice to people who may benefit from it. This is by no means the only travel forum that I frequent but it is amongst the more friendly and respectful. Personally, with very few exceptions I've not encountered much that I would consider inappropriate.

"I don't even understand safety in this context. How on Earth could posting a question on a forum harm anyone...."

By contrast, I don't understand why there is a difference in this context. If I asked a question in the "real world" and someone replied that I was an idiot, then I'd be a little miffed. Why should I be any less peeved because it is implied by some on social media? I think some of those promoting the "rough and tumble" of a forum might reflect on whether they'd be quite so forceful/sarcastic/ "amusing" without the anonymity afforded here.

Also have never seen or read any thing by RS, stumbled on to the foram looking for something else

If I asked a question in the "real world" and someone replied that I
was an idiot, then I'd be a little miffed.

Well sure. But I've never seen an OP called an idiot on these forums.
I've never seen one called stupid, either.

Dunno, maybe posts using these insults have been rightfully deleted before I've seen them? Really, I'm scratching my head here. I'm also scratching my head over which travel forums out there are less stuck-up, hostile, rude, pontificating, etc, than this one ? I belong to/have belonged to multiples - some with much larger, broader international communities (yes, there are cultural communication differences) - and sure haven't seen one that steps more lightly than this one.

Well sure. But I've never seen an OP called an idiot on these forums.
I've never seen one called stupid, either.

Then you definitely have not seen some of the posts that I have seen. Although those particular terms (idiot, stupid) are not used (except in a couple of rare instances), the meaning of the responses is very clear by the tone and the wording that is used. 'Waste of time', 'not worth it', 'don't bother', 'you'll regret it' - these, and others, are all just subjective statements based on the personal opinions of the poster but are often delivered in an imperative manner that suggests "I'm the expert, you're the dummy, you better listen to me". Everyone knows when they are being talked down to, even when they can't see or hear the speaker in person; some people just shrug it off and read the next response, others will take it more personally and feel insulted of belittled by it. But, no, we don't have to walk on eggshells or not give advice because we're afraid of hurting someone's feelings. We just have to pay attention to the tone or wording of our responses and, especially with newcomers, be a little more careful.

Interesting example of the forum working. A woman wrote in asking if she was crazy to think of taking 4 kids under 7 YO to France for a week in December. 3/4 of the responses were "you're crazy". She has asked in the title "Am I crazy?!"

I don't believe this is a good example of what we are talking about in this thread, because she explicitly asked for people's opinions, and that's what she got. And I agree, it's good that she got some new perspective on her issue.

The problem, however, is the dynamics that occur when someone asks a factual question that could easily be answered in a factual manner but instead the person gets walloped with negative opinions about their question or their travel plan, which is not what they asked for and not the kind of respect that they deserve.

Sure, you can offer opinions, but make sure first that the person's actual question was answered in a respectful way, and don't scold a questioner for being ignorant, naive or wrongheaded. As others have said, if the question annoys you, let someone else handle it or wait until you can answer it without a tone of annoyance, superiority or scorn.

I'm assuming that in sponsoring this forum, the Rick Steves Europe organization, understandably, has a business interest in not having regulars (or others) on this forum answer questions, esp. from new users, in an offensive manner that makes it less likely that these travelers will become future Rick Steves customers, if they have a positive experience on this forum.

There are many other forums out there whose primary purpose is more general discussions of European travel issues--which presumably is a secondary purpose, but not really the primary purpose, of this forum from the viewpoint of the forum sponsor.

I am suggesting that we add a "Safe Room" to the forum. A place where people to go when threatened with differing opinions or when the topic becomes unsetteling.

I am suggesting that we add a "Safe Room" to the forum. A place where people to go when threatened with differing opinions or when the topic becomes unsetteling.

Maybe what we need is a 'sarcasm room' where people can go who just have the urge to be sarcastic and can't control themselves.:)

Although those particular terms (idiot, stupid) are not used (except
in a couple of rare instances), the meaning of the responses is very
clear by the tone and the wording that is used. 'Waste of time', 'not
worth it', 'don't bother', 'you'll regret it' - these, and others, are
all just subjective statements based on the personal opinions of the
poster but are often delivered in an imperative manner that suggests
"I'm the expert, you're the dummy,

See, I don't know as I'd take someone's opinion of a location/attraction as something which could be missed - however that's worded - as an insult, especially if they tell me WHY they didn't care for it. Their reasons may or may not cause me to change plans but it might be useful to have a range of experiences to work from? If they don't explain why they don't recommend __, one can always ask. We've seen OP's do exactly that: "What didn't you like about __?"

(No idea why the end of this post is in Italics)

As someone who posted to the post about the wisdom of taking 4 kids under 7 to Paris, the joke was really on a lot of us. We suggested Hawaii instead and she replied that they went to Hawaii and it did not work out well. So even what we thought was good advice, wasn't.

See, I don't know as I'd take someone's opinion of a location/attraction as something which could be missed - however that's worded - as an insult, especially if they tell me WHY they didn't care for it.

Let's say someone is in San Francisco and asks people on the street how to get to Fisherman's Wharf. It's a simple question, but instead of answering the question, five people in a row say, "Oh you don't want to go there, it's a tourist trap." What kind of opinion do you think those people will have of San Francisco people? 1)Oh, they were so helpful! or 2)Oh my God, I'll never go back there again. The people were horrible to me.

If your instinct is to answer #1, you will just have to take it on faith that many, many people will have reaction #2. Maybe they'll never be able to explain to you WHY they feel that way, but they do. That is what the Webmaster here is trying to get across.

Nancy ...... ZING! Yes I deserved it. The reaction was to the post suggesting we quit talking on the subject. But admittedly it is my weakness.

About the Fishermans warf example above, I love alternate ideas from locals. If I had done my homework, I would have know he was right, but didnt know what else to do with my time. So it's okay. You get what you pay for .... or less. Dont expect more. If someone asked me for directions to Vaci ut, they might get the same sort of response from me plus the directions. I guess it's better to politely say no?

As someone who posted to the post about the wisdom of taking 4 kids under 7 to Paris, the joke was really on a lot of us. We suggested Hawaii instead and she replied that they went to Hawaii and it did not work out well. So even what we thought was good advice, wasn't.

And that was in good weather, without a language problem, and where they could go to the beach. Basically, the question behind the question was about taking many small children on a long trip. And the response of many was "crazy".

We certainly traveled with little kids. It's always a challenge. One time we were driving from St Louis to Denver, and planned to get a room near Kansas City. We didn't realize that a pre-season Chiefs game would take up all the rooms for 100 miles in each direction. My 3 year old spent 3 hours basically moaning about how tired she was. It was pretty annoying.

HAHAH!! Post # 200.

If someone asked me for directions to Vaci ut, they might get the same sort of response from me plus the directions. I guess it's better to politely say no?

No, it would be better to politely give them the directions they asked for - period. If they then asked for your opinion on whether they should go there, you're free to give it to them.

Naaaaaa, I didnt volunteer the help, they imposed themselves on me. They have two choices, what I want to say or NO. Either would be delivered politely. Or they can hire me by offering me 1000 forints for directions. In which case I would be obligated to serve them.

Of course, this isn't to be confused with this forum, where I am a guest and play by the house rules ...... or go home.

Let's say someone is in San Francisco and asks people on the street
how to get to Fisherman's Wharf. It's a simple question, but instead
of answering the question, five people in a row say, "Oh you don't
want to go there, it's a tourist trap." What kind of opinion do you
think those people will have of San Francisco people? 1)Oh, they were
so helpful! or 2)Oh my God, I'll never go back there again. The people
were horrible to me.

Chuckling a little here as "Ask a local" is fairly common advice. So If 5 of 5 locals asked advise against something, that's horrible behavior? Hmmm. Maybe they're onto something? Maybe I should ask them what makes it tourist trap or what specifically to avoid? In the case of the Wharf, some context again comes into play? If one asks directions to the wharf for the Alcatraz ferry dock or visiting Maritime National Historical Park then responses might be different.

No matter. We'll just agree to cheerfully disagree about attraction, activity or location-skipping comments which also provide reasons why.

Hi Webmaster,

Appreciate that you make this post.

I just joined this forum in April before my Germany trip. Before joining this forum and posting my question, I had many worries as in worrying that people might think that I am asking silly/lame questions. (This mindset of mine is what you have mentioned in your post that new forum members and inexperiences travellers are not signing up to post in a forum so that their question can be judged by strangers and that most new travelers exhibit some amount of vulnerability because they know they don't know the ins and outs of travel, which is why they're here.)

I am from a small country (normal public transport only metro, buses and taxis) which only has 1 rail train that travel to our neighbour country so I have totally no experience in taking railways or trains in big countries outside of Asia.

When I post the question about transit timing and platform info, I kept worrying if other members will think that I am asking an obvious or silly question. Even when members give me info such as that the tracks are stub tracks which I don't really know what it mean, I am worry to ask what it actually mean and instead went on google to check the meaning.

I am glad that I received good info from the forum and members and really appreciate that as the Webmaster, you check and remind members of this concern.

Thank you very much for maintaining this really nice and informative forum. And also thank you to all the members who provide the useful info that are find on this forums.

That's what it is all about....

Forum users (new member) will certainly get defensive when a subject matter expert (long time members) give them critical feedback as to their approach (travel plans).

Forum users (long time members) will certainly get defensive when a subject matter expert (Webmaster) give them critical feedback as to their approach (how they respond to first time users).

DJ

As others have commented, but I will expand on, let's just answer the questions asked. Here's what I see a lot of:

OP asks: "What are your favorite day tours in Munich?"

Non-helpful replies:

"We can't help us with that until we know what your budget is.."

"We don't know what you like, so until you tell us this most basic information, how do you expect us to help you?"

"We don't know where you are staying in Munich, so we have no idea which area of Munich to direct you to."

You know, the OP didn't ask you to divine his/her answers to your questions, the OP asked you what YOUR favorite day tours were in Munich. I see this All. The. Time. If the initial question annoys you, skip it and move on.

And YES it's helpful to ask vague questions sometimes. There are times I'm traveling in Europe and I'd just like to think outside the box of the typical things I've always done in Paris or London or Munich and maybe your idea about a chance to paint pints of beer in a monastery in Munich is something I never would have considered before. Just answer the question.

My least favorite answer to what are your favorite day tours is: I went on a tour 20 years ago and didn't like it, so all tours are a waste of money.
Another fave: On a trip report, someone says they went on a Sound of Music tour and how much fun they had, it was their favorite thing on their trip to Europe. Along comes Debbie Downer to tell them how they wasted their money and why would they do such a foolish thing.
Let's throw water on your trip and see how bad we can make you feel by not doing it MY way.

Vague questions are actually very hard to answer. " What should I do in London?".....well, where do you want me to start?!

I agree 100%. I believe that the forum works best and most helpfully when people do a little preliminary thinking, and ask a question about "which of the following 2 is better, and why?" People can easily select a choice between them. It gives a hint as to what you are thinking. And it shows good faith - you have put some time in yourself.

I really do not see what the problem is with politely asking for a little more detail or information to help answer a query.

That isn't a problem, you are right. It's the answering a question that wasn't asked. Or changing their question for them. If the OP wants your opinion on a day tour you liked in a particular place, why not just answer about a day tour you liked in a particular place? If you didn't like any of them, maybe don't answer the question. Just a thought.

A previous poster in this thread mentioned a thread from earlier this week when someone asked about a dinner tour on the Siene. I read that one, too. The replies were annoying, even though the OP specifically asked for a dinner cruise recommendations. The replies were - don't do the dinner tour! Just answer the question.

Fair enough, but hopefully when you do this you make it clear that you are intentionally asking a vague question to get a range of ideas, not just asking a vague question because you can't be bothered doing a bit of research or typing a little more detail.

Um...I don't do this. I learned my lesson really early on, and in fact, attempt to make my questions sooo specific now as to be overkill. But honestly, that's because I've done a ton of research before asking because I fear the replies. I wish it weren't like that here, though. Sometimes people come here first, for better or for worse, before doing research. Maybe if they ask a vague question, people could just share a few things to answer their question or not answer at all.

I think it is reasonable to expect someone who poses a question to provide the salient facts/circumstances of the situation to make giving useful, cogent answers possible.

Q- Should I jump out of my plane while flying from Paris to Amsterdam?

The 1st wave of answer will in all likelihood be to the negative, along with a number of comments that taking the train is better, and probably a few questioning the sanity of the OP

After a period of time and numerous replies the OP advises he has a parachute.

This bit of info triggers a wave of responses about how dangerous doing so would be.

Finally OP reports he is an air force pilot, his engine has exploded and the plane is on fire.

Now the replies are unanimous: 'jump'

Q- Should I jump out of my plane while flying from Paris to Amsterdam? The 1st wave of answer will in all likelihood be to the
negative, along with a number of comments that taking the train is
better, and probably a few questioning the sanity of the OP

No, on this forum it would be, why are you flying from Paris to Amsterdam? What a silly thing to do. Just take the train!

or

You should fly from Paris to London.

I once posted a super-specific question about my 17 year old coming with me to Paris and sight seeing on his own while I was in a conference. One of the first replies was, "Why isn't he asking these questions himself? Why are you doing it for him?" Ummm....because he's 17 and not really on a 1990s-style message board? Because I use this forum and he doesn't?

This is what I'm talking about.

I think the people on this forum are great!

Hi All,

I’ve been reading this topic over the past few days with great interest and enthusiasm. Having been on the forum for about 12 years now, the idea of using correct tone and being more open to newbie questions seems to come up every few years as a gentle reminder from Webmaster Andrew (and staff). It’s certainly something we all need reminding of now and again. I agree with many that an occasional reminder to be a little gentle with the newbies certainly isn’t a bad thing so why not just approach it from the perspective of having a new student in a classroom - every person answering questions on this board, is essentially a teacher. Or, as others have suggested, if you think a question is not worth answering then don’t answer the question if further clarification doesn’t appear to be a viable option.

But, my real purpose in coming is to expand the suggestion made by Lynn, quite a few posts up. Her idea of adding to the Getting Started section about what makes a good question should perhaps be added to every time there is a ‘New Topic’ started ( similar to how the Before you ask sentence is listed above new topics). Since I have no idea if this works in terms of website building, I will defer to Webmaster Andrew regarding the feasibility of this.

Gretchen, good idea.

I like that idea, Gretchen.

I'm liking that idea too, Gretchen. 👍⭐️

I enjoy this forum and I am glad to see what appears to be agreement to be extra welcoming to newcomers.

One suggestion for the webmaster is to somehow visually indicate a question from a first time poster. The post count is not displayed on the initial question and I have to click into the poster’s profile to even know it’s someone’s first post.

Thanks for providing this useful forum.

These kinds of conversations happen in-person too. Just recently I've "coached" two different people (a close friend and a work friend) on their upcoming separate trips to Prague, which we've been to twice. Neither friend has been to Europe, neither has independently travelled.

The close friend mentioned that when he travels to the US from Canada he prefers to use UBER to get around, stay in large conference style hotels and connect with other travellers in the evening at pubs. For his 2 1/2 week trip to Prague for a business conference I suggested he might get more of a cultural benefit from the trip by using local transportation, staying in a smaller hotel and connecting with locals at bars and restaurants. Similar to what we've heard in the posts just above, my advice to him was refined as he released more details of his trip. We'll see if he takes it.

I've had deeper conversations about Prague with the work friend, but in both cases I've been careful to explain that my advice is only based on my experience and their experience will be different. I've made suggestions specific to Prague as well as independent travel in general. What I learned is that there's definitely some sensitivity involved and you need to be aware in how much influence you provide based on your own experience (ie not framing things as if they are fact) and avoid describing stuff as absolutes. Their mileage may vary.

When asking questions, I don't think most inexperienced posters know what they need to provide in order to get good advice, so yes, a pop up or "Before You Ask" preamble as suggested by Lynne and seconded by Gretchen is a great idea.

I would say that extreme speech should be deleted by the Webmaster, but maybe otherwise when the thread goes beyond the ideals of the RS organization it be frozen with a note: "This thread closed as it no longer represents the RS .... etc" and then just let the posts stand. I hate censorship. I say "I would say" because interpretation of speech has become so dishonest that a person of a differing political or religious persuasion saying he doesn't like poodles will be called extreme because it will be used to call him out for hating curly haired homeless children.

Basically the Webmaster has an impossible job. G-d bless you man, you need it.

Hi,

Some of you will notice that I've removed a side discussion about another thread and how the OP was aggressive and entitled. While I agree in this particular instance, I was really hoping that this thread we're on here would not shift to how the OP can be in the wrong. Not only does that send the wrong message given the context of this thread, but such scenarios are way more cut and dry. When the OP is out of line and you report it, we handle it. On occasions, this involves retaining something objectionable from the OP. This is because our community is generally really good at balancing such things with their replies and we trust other readers to make the right conclusion for themselves. Of course, if we handle it in a way that you disagree with, you are welcome to issue another Report or send me a message. I'm totally OK with giving something additional review. That's hopefully a reasonably straight-forward approach that generally works.

The subject matter of this thread, though, is much less straight forward as there are so many nuances depending on the thread.

I agree completely with Agnes. I believe the forum may find some former participants return when they discover they will no longer be fodder for bitter and sarcastic long-time denizens. I've got plenty of travel experience to share and areas in which I still want to expand my knowledge but I left a year ago after I received some particularly nasty and unnecessary responses. I don't have a need for unpleasant interaction just because it's an opportunity for the clever to display their wit. I cannot fathom what I perceive as a need in some to denigrate others and I appreciate those who treat others with consideration. You've got an opportunity for free speech in your home and in your daily activities but a business forum has every right to represent itself online as they wish.

You've got an opportunity for free speech in your home and in your
daily activities but a business forum has every right to represent
itself online as they wish.

I agree completely.

It's odd, I have seen very little on the forum of any nature that I find blatantly offensive. Ignorant, yes, some times, but also rarely. Sarcastic? only when I read my own posts. This is a pretty good place all in all. Well, except for "you know who".

I missed the post by Agnes, but she is generally correct.

Ummm....because he's 17 and not really on a 1990s-style message board?

LOL!

I'd like to ask the webmasters of their thoughts on 3 separate issues somehow related to what's been discussed here.

1. Sometimes English-speaking but non-North American people ask questions about trips to Europe that involve Visas, transit visas, or the like. I think it is a disservice to give opinions on these matters other than refer to the nearest Schengen-country (or UK, or Ireland) embassy website, because rules and procedures are very different for citizens of countries without visa free access to Europe. This has led to a couple very bitter replies by OPs, on the lines of "I know about the embassy site, why don't you answer my question".

   1. Sometimes new-ish forumers protest, on this forum, things like red light or average speed camera fines, public transportation surcharges for not having validated a ticket on a totem or stamp machine, or come outraged about the VAT calculation method (a %rate of final price). Said forumers would call these events as scams, accuse the countries/cities of fleecing tourists, and because such OPs are angry, they expect only a kind of online acceptance and empathy of their travel grievances.
   2. Bragging about yesteryear European travel before the age of ubiquitous online access. Sounds a pet peeve of mine, but there are a handful of forumers that do just that on questions related to travel tech, apps etc. Somebody asks about using Booking and the long timer goes on a diatribe about a random Frau shuffling written reservation cards in 1987 in a pension that still doesn't have a website.

Bragging about yesteryear European travel before the age of ubiquitous online access. Sounds a pet peeve of mine, but there are a handful of forumers that do just that on questions related to travel tech, apps etc. Somebody asks about using Booking and the long timer goes on a diatribe about a random Frau shuffling written reservation cards in 1987 in a pension that still doesn't have a website.

That made me chuckle. The term you're looking for is luddites.

Hard to be a Luddite using airplanes, right?