Travel, Affluence and the 2nd class Coach

I never plan my travels even down to the hour increments, I travel with a loose itinerary that gets tweaked about twenty times a day. I still seek out 'back doors' by getting off the beaten path and limit places and sights that draw the huge crowds. I don't upgrade my hotels because I still like the quirky family hotels - only problem is they are getting harder to find than in the past. And I never travel 1st class - not on planes, not on trains, not in hotels and not in restaurants.

So, I guess I haven't really lost anything. And I don't envy those who have done the 'upgrade' thing. I like the way I travel and just wish I could do more of it.

"Rick, I remember, made a point of telling readers "sure the 1st class train coach is more comfortable, but take the 2nd class Coach. 1st Class is for wealthy tourists, 2nd class is for travelers"."

Now, to me Rick's statement comes across as reverse snobbery. I HAVE seen him say that, so not questioning it but honestly, in my view we are all tourists. A number of years ago there used to be discussions here on the forum all the time about whether you were a tourist or some kind of superior being who was a traveler which somehow was supposed to elevate your experience.

After Covid I started trying to fly Delta One to decrease the number of people in the cabin I was flying in AND to decrease the number of people that walked by my seat on boarding. I used to fly Comfort + which gave me a bit of extra room but also meant that nearly everyone in the whole plane was brushing by you as they found their seats. It has not impacted my experience negatively at all. Ditto with First Class in trains. I have taken trains from Amsterdam to Paris as well as London to Yorkshire and back. Fewer people traipsing thru.

I am not one to talk to fellow passengers either on planes or trains. Just not something I enjoy so I'm not missing out on anything in my mind.

What about you? Do you feel you your travel experience has been impacted by changes in how you book or research things?

I don’t travel first class in trains because I don’t think it is worth the extra expense. I’d rather use my dollars on something else.

I don’t recall Rick ever saying you should ride in second class in trains because it’s for travelers while first class is for wealthy tourists, but I’ll take your word for it. (I do recall him saying that staying in expensive hotels puts a barrier between you and the culture, or something along those lines.) I think wealthy people are real people too and they can be travelers as Rick defines it. There will be less people to chat with in first class, but I don’t think a conversation with them will be any better or worse than someone who chooses to (or can only afford) second class tickets.

The only way to quantify that "loss" and its value to you (everyone's valuation will be different) is to experiment with different choices instead of always taking the "default" (most comfortable) option. Then compare the outcomes, and see what you really value the most. Socioeconomic status and "keeping up with the Joneses" will, by definition, foreclose or at least make less likely some options like the neighborhood you live in, the people you interact with and come to know, the university you attend, how much discretionary income you have for hobbies, what you do with your leisure time, etc. Travel is just another matrix of choices/ expectations, but it's much broader than travel. It comes down to aligning your resources with your values.

Just saw Pam’s response. I’m totally with her on the reverse snobbery comment. And the fact that we are all tourists.

The main difference that I have found with 1st and 2nd class compartments has to do with internet access. It is often restricted to first class compartments. If that is important to you as a traveler (it is to me), the 1st class may be a good choice.

My wife and I have had interesting conversations in a number of trains. Other travelers note that we are speaking English, and often seek to engage us in a friendly discussion. It's been quite useful in a number of cases. In one trip, as we were traveling to Oradea Romania, we met a young man who was a border guard. His dad was a taxi driver. The young man persuaded his father to give us a free ride to our hotel

Have we lost something by planning our travels down to the 15-minute increment? I like to plan out my days with a few things I want to see each day, but not down to that amount--and I am getting better about being more open to changes in plans than when I was younger. I still like to have something going on each day, but it doesn't have to be many events each day.
Have we lost something by forgetting to seek out the "back doors"? I try to include what would be considered "back doors" on every trip I do, whether Europe or somewhere else, particularly if that back door takes me outdoors.
Have we lost something by following the beaten path? This does make it harder to find what could be considered "authentic" or "spontaneous" experiences--you just have to make a point of seeking out a way to stray from the "beaten" part of the path.
Have we lost something by upgrading from the quirky family hotel? I have to say I don't mind staying in somewhat nicer places than in my hostel backpacking, leading student groups, or Peace Corps days, but when circumstances call for staying in more basic places, I don't mind it since I am familiar with that experience.
Have we lost something by traveling 1st class? I don't get to do this very often (I have had a few flights in this category in my life). I don't have a lot of experience having meaningful conversations on trains or planes with fellow passengers, I guess because I am quite introverted. So my plane or train trip has been just a means of getting someplace and not where I have been looking to meet people or deeply engage with others. Of course, a fellow passenger in the next seat can always surprise you.

Rick has his way of traveling, I have my way of traveling and I'm guessing you have your way of traveling.

What matters is what makes you happy. I travel in a way that makes me happy. I really don't care what Rick thinks. He like churches and art. They are not high on my list. Should I then feel as if I'm missing out because I'm not following Rick?

I like traveling first class on trains. As a solo traveler, I like being able to get a seat by myself. I'm not looking to start conversations with other people. I like finding a nice quiet, peaceful seat and looking out the window or researching my next destination or trip. In fact, I seek out the quiet section on trains.

I don't believe in planning every minute and don't fear missing something if I don't do that. (If that is what others plan to do, I'm not criticising them if that's what makes them happy.)

Sometimes Rick makes it sound like if you travel in second class everyone is going to want to talk to you, and share food and have a party. I've traveled in second class a great deal and that never happened.

The only way you have lost something is if you feel you have lost something. The answer is not "one size fits all."

And even Rick admits that as soon as he lists a "back door" in his guidebooks, they become so crowded they are no longer "back doors."

Rick uses 4 star tourist hotels and first class busses for his RS Tours. Do as I do, not as I say?

There are definitions for Traveler and Tourist but most often they are self proclaimed to self elevate.

I think Chris is trying to ask questions that can make us think about why we travel, more than giving us all a place to recite how we travel and why we are all still getting the back door experience. I am still forced to laugh at young me after moving back from living in Japan - I was pretty disdainful of the kind of travel experience I might have in “only 2 weeks”. I thought “why even bother”. LOL. And yet, I eventually wound up over on the “short vacation available” dark side.

My honest answer is that yes, we probably lose things by upgrading. Some of my upgrades are due to age and I am at peace with that. It’s a tradeoff to keep going. But the real people are usually still there wherever I have upgraded to. And isn’t it the interaction with people that makes a difference? Not the way we visit a museum? The people aren’t always from the country I am in, as they may also be tourists. I often have really interesting conversations with people from other countries - and I gain not only an insight into their culture but we can also compare our perceptions of the new place we are both in.

My experiment, as Agnes mentions, is the difference in traveling solo versus traveling with a friend or family member. I have WAY more interactions with people from everywhere when I am alone. I have my theories why, but it IS a fact that it happens. So for me, traveling alone still gives me the connections that make travel more worthwhile for me.

As I consider all this, I think I think (ha!) that it remains a choice and a frame of mind. People who want to spend their time with other Americans also wanted to when they had less money. So maybe no, I don’t think we lost something - maybe it was the same before as it is now.

@Pam, everyone knows you and I are travelers, and not mere tourists. 🤣🤣

Long distance trips I go first class on the train when I can - with the seat reservation. I want to bave somewhere to sit. Most of the 2nd class German trains I took this year were SRO and I’d rather have a seat. Also more chance to put your luggage overhead.

I’m not adverse to taking other classes. Years ago my sister and I went from Madrid to Toledo on the ‘ferrobus’ which I guess was 4th class. Even ‘Europe on $5 a Day’ recommended against it.

In bigger cities I stay in chain hotels but I am rarely in cities and in towns and villages the smaller accommodations are what I like.

Interesting questions. Possibly? The reality for all of us, Rick included, is that we are getting older and it is not always possible to travel the way we did when we were younger. Personally, I still seek out the "back doors" and "off the beaten paths" in a way that is more accessible to me than it was when I was a young 20-something backpacker. I need a comfortable bed/room to sleep so that I can enjoy the next day. Often times that means I'm not chosing the "mom and pop" establishment but rather a higher-end, more luxurious establishment. Am I missing out? Perhaps. But I'm able to enjoy the next day and visit that little mom and pop restaurant with out feeling exhausted. Being a Traveler, in my mind, is not about always taking the cheaper, hostel-living route. To me, being a traveler is taking more time in one place to enjoy what it has to offer. Getting to know the locals at the coffee shop each morning. Finding your favorite square to people watch. Joining a game of Petanque with the locals. Before, and as was the way of many of Rick followers, we were busily hopping from place to place after just a couple of days. We may have made a few local friends by staying at the mom and pop place but we were there for such short times, we missed out on the other, local flavors. Today, because of my ability to afford more, I am able to travel in a different way. One that fits with my current physical and fiscal abilities. My point is to say that while some of our choices have changed (more comfortable hotels vs. hostels or low-budget mom/pops) as we've aged, our overall philosophy of "Travel" vs "Vacation" has not. While some may see this as missing out, others may see it as a gift to slow down and see more.

I was in my early forties the first time I went to Europe, on a trip paid for by my employer, to study dialysis in Europe and adapt our equipment. Today, everywhere we stayed except two places are 4* hotels. One was a 3½; the other was a no star local hotel because the 4 hotel the usually used near the German headquarters in Munich was booked. I really enjoyed the no star hotel experience. No one spoke English so I could practice my HS German.

For the first weekend, they booked me on a night train from Brussels to a small town, where my g.grandfather was born, near Offenburg. That travel was all in first class. When I arrived, I bought a ticket to Heidelberg, where we were to meet Sunday night. After I bought the ticket, I realized it was for 2nd class, so I went back to the station and exchanged it for a 1st class ticket.

Sunday evening I rode alone in a 1st class compartment, maybe alone in the entire coach, to Heidelburg.

Several years later, on another business trip, I rode on a train from Heidelberg to Munich. This time I rode in 2nd class, in a six person compartment with five native Germans who took great delight in pointing out all for the geographical sights we passed on the trip.

Since that first trip, I've never traveled in anything other than 2nd class.

So, yes, if I were to travel 1st class, I would feel that I had lost something.

Sometimes Rick makes it sound like if you travel in second class everyone is going to want to talk to you, and share food and have a party. I've traveled in second class a great deal and that never happened.

@ Frank, this made me laugh. One favorite travel experience from last year in England was exactly this - overbooked, standing room only train (the car with my reserved seat didn’t even make it on the train lineup), with everyone helping everyone get a seat - and after getting me a seat, the couple at my table of four pulled out the bottle of wine and the plastic cups for all of us and we partied till my stop. 🤣

I wonder when it was that he first said that—I’d wager 40 year ago or more? Perhaps it could be an interesting topic to discuss, but any discussion must be made from a modern context—the world has changed in countless ways.

A number of years ago there used to be discussions here on the forum
all the time about whether you were a tourist or some kind of superior
being who was a traveler which somehow was supposed to elevate your
experience.

When I first discovered this Forum this was my initial reaction. I don't know if the Forum changed or my interpretation of what I read has changed, but I certainly don't see it that way anymore. When I had my first European adventure 9 years ago (several years before I knew about this Forum) I had 2 weeks to see as much as possible, and thinking back it was rushed, but I loved every minute of it and have no regrets. Everyday on Facebook I read comments about people who went on a one day trip from Rome to see Pompeii and the Amalfi Coast...and they loved it although it was just a taste. In April I spent 11 days in Sorrento that included 2 days in Pompeii and 2 along the Amalfi Coast and while it was much more immersive than those Facebook people could have experienced I don't think they missed out. They just did what they could do with the time they had.

I'm in a stage of my life now where I'm nearing retirement and I can focus more on the back door stuff such as 11 days in Sorrento. I don't think I lost anything by travelling the way I did that first time to Europe. I also didn't lose anything by taking multiple Disney trips with my kids where days were carefully planned. I just take it all as memorable experiences. I recall on one of those Disney trips when my kids were about 8 and 10 years old and after a long, hot (and typically wonderful Disney Day) we went to a high-end restaurant run by a celebrity chef. It was 1st class all the way with impeccable service-I swear we each seemed to have our own private waiter. It wasn't cheap, but my kids still talk about that day in particular. So no, there are alternate ways to travel, and the question we all need to ask ourselves is what we want out of our travels. Possibly that 1st class train is a nice trade-off that gives you a more stress free jaunt between points of interest that has you ready for something unique or off the beaten path.

I'm just grateful that we are able to travel in whatever class suits us. Sometimes first class, sometimes 2nd class. All the time, just happy to be wherever we are and cherish the memories.

On the two business trips I made to Europe in the 80s, the company always booked us into 3* or better hotels, where most of the staff spoke English. In between those two trips, I made one trip on my own dime. Because I couldn't, or didn't want to, spend a lot of money, I got Michelin guide and found 1* hotels in the towns where I wanted to stay. I really enjoyed staying in those small establishments. Being able to converse in German might have been a help. I don't know if I would feel as comfortable doing that in, say, Italy.

Mostly I have traveled in German speaking areas (Germany, Austria, Switzerland). I did have one stay in Prague, but I stayed in a Rick Steves recommended place, and the two brothers that ran it spoke English. However, outside of that hotel, I found most people in Prague preferred to speak German rather than English.

In recent years, I have discovered "Privatzimmer" (rooms in private homes), and I much prefer this kind of accommodations. I always write for reservations in German, and they never fail to respond in German. Sometimes I arrive at the Privatzimmer to find that they speak good English; sometimes I find that they only speak German. In a Privatzimmer, breakfast has always been included, and I have had interesting conversations with the home owner when the served me my breakfast. I wouldn't miss the Privatzimmer experience for anything.

Interesting thread. I have "upgraded" in certain areas from what I did in my twenties but still fly economy and travel second class on public transportation. Not because, I must admit because of any deep desire for authentic experiences but because I am too cheap to do otherwise. I do not think I would lose anything but some discomfort if I upgraded. The same with taking a taxi from the airport to the first accommodation. I never even considered doing this until the time about five years ago I spent an hour in Rotterdam trying to find a small hotel after taking two flights, a train, and a tram. I did have lots of interaction with the locals but all of it was frustrating because no one knew where the hotel was! in retrospect, a taxi from the train station would have been a sensible thing to have done.

In my twenties, my husband and I made several trips to Europe. We only did the hostel thing one night and had no desire to repeat. But we stayed in lots of places where the bathroom was down the hall. I was in Vienna a couple years ago and decided to rent a room with the bath in the hall. It was much cheaper. It was March and I think I was the only one using it. I decided I still didn't like having to dress myself suitably to use the bathroom. It never bothered me when I was younger. But then my point of reference was a hostel.

When we went to Greece in 2022, we stayed in a hotel with a gorgeous view to visit Meteora. It was a bit more expensive than the other places we had stayed in. The other places we had stayed in were family owned and by the second day we all knew each other. This place had shifts of workers who were quite competent but you did not see the same people. I did feel like we had lost the personal touch by upgrading. I don't know if I have always had conversations necessarily with other guests but have with the people at the hotel. And I like that. One of the things I like most about traveling in Europe is that lower end places can be clean and safe while in the U.S. that is not the case.

When we were in Sicily this past summer, we stayed in an airbnb outside of Erice that was a wing of a house. We were traveling with our daughter and husband and had two bedrooms and a bath. We interacted a lot with the owners at breakfast time and then we had dinner there as well. The second night there was a couple from Poland at dinner and we talked to them quite a bit too. We had some terrible weather during that time and frankly being there was one of our consolations. We are taking our niece to England next May and are renting apartments in the first two cities. But in the last, Oxford, we are renting the attic in a private home because the host seems interesting and fun (from emails) and I wanted my niece to experience this side of traveling to Europe.

So I think some of ways we can upgrade only make life more comfortable. I don't talk too much to people on the plane and would very delighted to suddenly travel business class. But I do think that the kinds of places we stay in has more of an effect on our experiences.

"Rick uses 4 star tourist hotels and first class busses for his RS Tours. Do as I do, not as I say?

There are definitions for Traveler and Tourist but most often they are self proclaimed to self elevate."

Mr. E -- how many Rick Steves tours have you taken? Zero? Four-star hotels on RS tours are very rare. And I wouldn't call the buses first class either. They are clean, comfortable but nothing fancy or even first class.

• Have we lost something by planning our travels down to the 15-minute increment? Absolutely and going way beyond just travel/vacation. To some extent, you just CAN'T get by without some planning - ie Anne Frank House tickets. However, I've tried hard to steer our travel towards one "big" planned (usually cultural like a museum) event per day followed by wandering and being aware enough of the place we are visiting that we can just enjoy being there. This has become MUCH truer due to our more "stay in one place longer" travel and much LESS of the old RS's bam-bam-bam-bam rapid fire travel technique we rolled with as younger folks.
• Have we lost something by forgetting to seek out the "back doors"? If you are not seeking them out, of course. Sadly, more and more folks are traveling and those sorts of things aren't growing at the same rate. But he even posts some good ways to find those back doors ( here ) and someone mentioned the go just two streets down from the main tourist drag for better experiences. Really, that staying in one place longer system is a real winner.
• Have we lost something by following the beaten path? Yes and no. The beaten path - the Acropolis, the Forum, the Louvre, the Tower of London, etc., are 100% worth making the effort. But, again, schedule one of those for the morning, and then seek out the "other" stuff Athens, Rome, Paris, or London have to offer.
• Have we lost something by upgrading from the quirky family hotel? No until you hit the "yes" threshold. Hotels are one of those breaking points for some (need a "perfect" bed to sleep or a strong shower or sanitized freshness or whatever. If it is going to ruin everything else on a trip because you can't sleep, then that's a deal breaker. But if you're fine in a 2 star hotel (amenities rating), then you aren't gaining by moving up the rating ladder to one where you are more isolated from the place you are visiting.
• Have we lost something by traveling 1st class? We go second class in trains pretty much all the time, and I don't think flying 1st or Business class impacts "travel" experience since that's pre or post-trip. In general, the best transportation option is often walking. Then, for me, cycling or the metro. Trains really only get a small amount of play as part of day trips, and then we're definitely in 2nd class with most other folks. Not even sure why we would ever pick 1st class for a day trip. FTR, though, I've met plenty of interesting RICH people while traveling. Plenty of "normal" seeming people too, so I don't know that occasionally mixing it up with in 1st class is a bad thing.

I've never planned down to 15 minute increments, or anything close. With the advent of mandatory timed entrances, we schedule no more than 2 of those per day. Otherwise we have one or 2 things we make a point of doing, and a list of other things we may try to get to if there is time and we feel the inclination. Not overscheduling allows for the possibility of serendipity.

I don't know that we have "forgotten" to seek out back doors or have limited ourselves to only the beaten path. We go where we want to go and do what we want to do, based on our pre trip research, our interests, and what spontaneous things pop up as we go along.

We stay in a variety of accommodations, depending on the location. Quirky family hotels, B&Bs, ferienwohnungen, and agriturismi are lovely, and we enjoy them. But there are some places in this world where I want air conditioning, elevators, a 24 hr front desk, and the other things that come with a 4☆ hotel.

As for travelling first class- we do BC on long haul flights now. Because, to put it bluntly, we can afford it, and it eliminates the day or 2 of exhaustion and misery I'd otherwise have on arrival. Im not sure what kind of cultural exposure anyone could expect on a flight anyway. But we've never felt a need for first class on trains - second class seats are comfortable enough for us, which is all I care about. I'm really not interested in social interactions with total strangers on a train, and how exactly would that work anyway, unless in one of those very old multi seat compartments? I never remember any memorable interactions with our fellow travellers on a train,except for one interminable ride with an unruly, loud, school group of preteens whose chaperones completely ignored their misbehavior. We also use public transport in cities, reserving taxis for places and times when they are more expedient.

If one returns from a trip with fond memories and no regrets, have they lost anything? I don't think so. There's no right way to travel. Only what is right for you.

"Rick uses 4 star tourist hotels and first class busses for his RS Tours."

Actually, on the 12 RS tours I've been on I don't find that to be the case. That may be the case with his hotels in Budapest but not always in the areas where I've traveled with him. Mr E, Has that been your experience on tours?

Easy Examples:

Hotel Beaugency -Paris - 3* https://www.hotel-beaugency.com/

Hotel Muguet - Paris (I think some of his tours stayed here this year) - 3*
https://hotelparismuguet.com/en/hotel.html

I looked at a couple of the hotels where I stayed on tours in England and did not see a star rating.

The start hotel in Ghent, Hotel Harmony is listed as 4. The hotel in Bruges he uses (Adornes) is 3, as is the Delft hotel (Plataan) and for the hotel I stayed in in Amsterdam I didn't see a * rating with a quick look.

I looked at just one hotel from my last tour which was Best of Italy and that was the 3* Hotel Aberdeen in Rome.

I don't know about the bus class. My bus on the Best of Italy was nice but did not have functioning WIFI most of the time and many of the power sockets did not work.

Frank brought up a good point on trains....I, too, like the line of single seats down one side of the 1st class carriages and prefer to book them if I can.

TexasTravelMom, lolol!!!!

Chris, thou doth assume too much, methinks...

Have we lost something by planning our travels down to the 15-minute
increment?

I refuse to do that. I typically have a "menu" of potential items to do/see most days, and I choose from that menu at game-time. Sure, I usually have a general plan for my days, but I rarely do attractions that require pinpoint scheduling or "timed entry tickets", though will put up with a small number when absolutely needed. I'm not going to schedule every activity all day each day. That's not a vacation, that's bootcamp. Not much lost here for me.

Have we lost something by forgetting to seek out the "back doors"?

For the past 5-10 years, I've sought out less popular (in fact, increasingly obscure) destinations. I may tack on a side-trip to a popular tourist spot, but those places are not the primary focus of my trips. Not much lost here for me.

Have we lost something by following the beaten path?

I avoid the beaten path, like the plague. My favorite travels have been to places that most of my friends have never heard of, and/or require geographical explanations to their questions ("where's that?", "why would you go there?").

Have we lost something by upgrading from the quirky family hotel?

I still do quirky, but sometimes higher-quality quirky. Might not be run by a quirky family, might be booked through AirBnB or booking.com. Might be in an old windmill, a former boathouse shed, or a 14th century tower (loved every one of those). Besides, I already have a pretty quirky family of my own, I don't need to borrow another one while on vacation.

Have we lost something by traveling 1st class?

Yeah. Backaches, headaches, leg cramps, lack of sleep, awful food, exhaustion, hours of complete misery in a bathroom, I'm not really missing those very much by flying in the better seats. 😎

I think we do lose something by over planning and by sticking to the tourist well trod paths. I love planning a trip, my family would say I live for it. 😂. But recently when I had days or trips where I couldn’t research and plan things myself, I found the thrill of learning about a place the minute I saw it. I didn’t have pre conceived ideas about it and I didn’t know all the details or history. It was refreshing to feel that surprise and awe again.

I recently was in Africa and had several experiences that put me right into the thick of a local experience. A tad uncomfortable at times but oh my, those interactions alone in a market or being escorted across a border by someone friendly but trying to sell me stuff the whole way was a hoot. One nice young man who escorted me across the bridge and to the border office told me he loved Americans because they would talk to him and look him in in the eye. He mentioned one country whose citizens refused to engage with people at all. Those are missed opportunities to engage with people living a very different life than my own.

There is no right or wrong way to travel. But for me, I am learning to let go of the obsessive planning and controlling a bit and to embrace an opportunity, even if it feels a bit uncomfortable to learn and discover a place beyond the postcard.

For the last decade or so I have dropped any idea of researching any of my trips with the exception of flights, train schedules and hotels.

Trips are now in the 4-5 stops per trip with 3-5 nights each. I arrive, check into the hotel and just start walking streets. Will I miss something that someone thinks is important, oh undoubtedly but I've been pretty content with how my travels have gone and don't see any need to change the course of action.

Another upside for me, I rarely do museums, I never do art galleries.

As many people have noted here, what travelling in a more expensive way does is reduce the number of contact points that you have with other people. You have to interact with far fewer people of you travel business over coach and even fewer still if you go by private jet.

This ability to insulate ourselves from the messiness of other people seems alluring but it does reduce the human experience. This is what I assume Rick is talking about. First class is quieter. You don’t have to talk to other travellers. In standard you probably will have to ask someone to move their bag or excuse you as you squeeze past. It’s sometimes annoying or irritating but you can also have really interesting interactions.

I think that most of us, as we age, can fondly remember aspects of travel that no longer exist. I think the secret is to always be willing to embrace the new with enthusiasm and patience.

I really don’t care who said what or about distinctions between words or classes. I care about getting out, exploring and experiencing more of the world. I adjust my travel to meet my current needs and assume others do as well.

I think the most important idea here is to simply allow people to travel as they choose without the constant comparisons or occasional scoldings for choosing to doing something differently.

Okay, Pam, I will stand corrected. And I confess my recklessness I'm assuming all of his tour city stay hotels were like the ones in Budapest and a few others I've heard of over the years. I have been on one of his busses, but again, perspective is everything and compared to my life experience it was pretty first class.

But again over generalizations are always wrong and you were polite in pointing it out. Thank you.

There are as many different reasons to travel, and ways to travel, as there are travelers. As long as one enjoys oneself, and derives what they want from the experience, then nothing is lost.

Thank you for acknowledging that, Mr. E.

I will add that my tours on Road Scholar do tend more toward the 4* as they always have elevators and the elevators are usually bigger than some of the 1 person with a suitcase elevators on Rick's tours, lol. The Road Scholar tour hotels are bigger and more business-type hotel chains - Accor/Mercure, Best Western, Radisson, etc.

We’ve lost a lot of things due to age, as have many of us. We never did plan in 15 min.increments, but now we try to build in some down time. We still love “back doors” and off the beaten path, but we have to at least be able to access it by public transportation. We’ve stayed in some pretty quirky family hotels (sketchy?), but now they have to have an elevator if they’re more than 2 floors. Our travel class is determined by whether we’ll need the jaws of life to get us out at our destination. So, yes we have lost something, but thankfully we’re still able to enjoy traveling.

I don’t know if this is just my perception (and maybe this is up to individual guides) but as Rick ages it seems like there are more options for luggage be transported rather than dragging through the streets.

I think most, if not all of us here, travel in ways that make us happy without worrying about what others like/think.

We do not travel first class. Not on planes, not on trains, and not for hotels. I much prefer a a quirky family run hotel over most anything. I am perfectly fine with camping too. A motorhome is my idea of h*ll, but a modified van is ok for a trip out of the country. Here at home, give me a tent and preferably not in a campground with others.

We usually plan our days, but they are mere suggestions unless there are specific excursions that we need to work around.

This summer we had a camper van for the first 10 days of the trip and the only thing booked was a guided hiking trip. It was so nice to decide at the last minute where we would camp, what we would do each day, etc. Sometimes we shad showers, sometimes not. Not a big deal for us. I know most posters here would hate all of this, and that's ok. We all have our preferences and that is what makes the world go round;)

Goodness - I hope I missed some context!

Quoting from the OP as he quotes and paraphrases RS: " 'sure the 1st class train coach is more comfortable, but take the 2nd class Coach. 1st Class is for wealthy tourists, 2nd class is for travelers'. The point being that you experience real daily Italian life in 2nd class. Money made for a more comfy ride, but it insulated you from real people."

Sounds very arrogant on RS's part if that is really the message he intended for his readers/viewers. I would hope that "real Europeans" can be found traveling in all classes. Certainly I have that to be the case.

(Chris - I am not criticizing your original post. Interesting pondering on your part. Just wondering about RS's perspective.)

Here is what RS says on this site, under Travel Tips, Transportation, Trains: First vs Second class

I dont see any snobbism reverse or otherwise, in that guidance. But I understand the general tone of what he has been saying all along: you can travel in Europe comfortably and economically if you travel like a temporary European. A big part of his guidance has always been focused on being economical, hence second class being perfectly acceptable. If you must have American-style hotel comfort and assume 2nd class is for the proles, yeah, you miss something, but it's your choice.

But to the OP's questions, I see it more as gaining something. With maturity and experience, you know how to best achieve your goals, manage your time and find your comfort level. Not everyone wants or needs a meaningful cultural experience at every turn.

I guess I can't buy RS's assumption that you meet more "real" locals in economical circumstances.

I've met a number of Europeans at Relais & Châteaux properties and certain historic hotels (not economy) where I have been truly privileged to be a (paying) guest. Certainly no fewer than when I traveled as a backpacker and stayed in hotels with toilet down the hall.

I like the above points that we travel according to our own needs and styles and desires. For me, that has varied through the years and, even now, includes some variation depending on circumstance and location.

I have said elsewhere that as a former multi-year expat, I would argue that the claim of being a "temporary local" is likely to be rejected by most natives. Even as an ex-pat for several years in one location, I was viewed as an American who was living and working outside of my native country. A visitor in a foreign country is a visitor. Hopefully, one who is considerate and respectful of local norms, customs, and peoples.

Amen, Pam. Tourists and travelers are one and the same. That horse has been beaten to death.

I guess what's more important for me is not HOW someone might choose to travel but that they are able to at all. Anywhere. Doesn't matter if it's in their own country or one further afield. I don't want to pass judgement on any who've been unable to explore much further than the next state as they may be facing personal, financial or economic challenges which make even that a big accomplishment. Whatever the adventure, good for you!!!

We've feel extraordinarily privileged to have packed a bag as often as we have, even if it's not as often as some others have been able to.

I have a 1st class senior citizen ticket for the regional trains in the state of Hessen in Germany. I meet just as many people in 1st class as when I was always in 2nd class. It is just less crowded and I always have a seat and wifi. it is absurd to think only tourists ride in 1st class as though there are no wealthy people in any country one travels in, who want a bit more comfort.
Chain hotels are fine with me. The people working in there are just as likely to know the neighborhood (restuarants, stores, etc.) as anyone working in a small, private hotel. All I do is sleep there, so it doesn't really matter to me. Hostels are ok with me too, whether here or in the US. When I saw the prices for a hotel in San Francisco, it was easy to pick the hostel instead and I had so much fun there with my daughter. Have slept in hostels all over Spain and Portugal on the Camino. Truly more fun than staying in hotels.

Have never flown 1st class or business. It is always economy as that is all I can afford. No idea if I have met more people back there in the plane or not.

Have never planned out my days really, except for when it is something specific, like a visit to Sagrada Famila or a tour. Then the times and trains need to be planned ahead.

Well I never travel 1st class on the train, but today I am. Because I found it for only £1 extra starting at one of only three GWR stations which has a first class lounge.
I am on a trip today which is supposed to be a treat, although it has become more of a business trip.
So as a rarity it just made sense. But vanishingly rare.
If I can find them I like quirky hotels. For instance tonight's hotel has been chosen solely for its name - although it does have a great price as well.
Anyone who saw my plans on any trip would think I was timetabled to the hilt, but they are plans which get changed and swapped round on a whim. There are certain core things which I have to do on this kind of a working leisure trip (which describes any domestic trip I take), but anything else is totally changeable.
My next trip I stay in a PI, simply because it has a totally unbeatable price, I would have loved to have stayed in a guest house instead that time, but can't justify the price and the hanging round for a guest house breakfast time on a short winter day.
And I hardly ever follow the beaten path- I seek out the unusual and little known, and follow my own interests, at the expense of the "must sees".

Chris, very interesting thread.

Not in planes so much as that to me is just a vehicle to get from one place to another, but I do think I miss something by traveling first class when taking a train. The few times I've traveled first class, I felt insulated from the other passengers (who were mostly business travelers by the look of it). But when traveling in coach, I've been able to strike up conversations with people; sometimes locals and sometimes travelers. Once in Italy, I met a woman who was traveling to Varenna by herself. We wound up staying at the same hotel and sightseeing together in Lake Come for 3 full days.

On another occasion I took a rickety bus in Turkey that had a cracked windshield and not so comfortable seats. But I got to enjoy the locals who got on and off, and the company of a little old lady who plopped down next to me and told me she was traveling to see her dentist (I discovered this through some sign language). She shared her trail mix with me, and smiled the whole trip.

These are the occasions that I remember when I think back on all my trips. The comfy rides disappear from memory. That doesn't meant that I don't appreciate the comfy rides, but I do think that I have lost something by catering to my desire for comfort.

I have WAY more interactions with people from everywhere when I am alone. I have my theories why, but it IS a fact that it happens. So for me, traveling alone still gives me the connections that make travel more worthwhile for me.

TexasTravelmom, I wholeheartedly agree with you about this. I also have my theories but you're right--it does happen a lot more when you travel alone. And that is why I continue to do it.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to thoughtfully respond. I have lots of tangential topics/questions, but I'll just ask one...

Do you think the typical 35yo RickSteves independent traveler has changed in ensuing 30+ years? Do then travel less "close to the ground" than 1990?

Interesting thoughts Chris. But 30 years ago, did 35 year olds have smart phones? Constant access to the Internet? Constant exposure to all the influencers on Instagram and TikTok? I think today's 35 year olds have very different expectations than their parents did at their age.

Chris, good question - but also consider that places have changed and because of that, our traveling style has also.

For example, when I first went to Italy over 25 years ago, the Cinque Terre was beautiful and blessedly free from crowds. I showed up in Vernazza in May without a booking and found a place by wandering around the square and asking for a room. I soon was approached by an older woman who grabbed my hand, and took me to an apartment where she and her husband lived. She showed me a bedroom overlooking the sea, wrote down the price and I stayed there for 4 nights.

If I showed up today without a reservation in Vernazza, I would probably be sleeping outside.

I'm going to say two things:

A) I have zero problem with people having money and spending their money how they want to to enjoy themselves. I think it is unwise to spend beyond your means, but your money is your money and what I would or wouldn't do with it doesn't matter.

B) And yes to every "have we lost" question.

But, of course, there are many nostalgic assumptions tagged to the "have we losts?"

If you returned to a more low budget travel style, are you accepted in the same circles that rewarded you back in the day? Or are you the old guy making people uncomfortable in the hostel? Is the beaten path beaten for a reason? If I hadn't already seen it I'd go back. How much more does a bad sleep set you back nowadays? Have you ever floundered travelling without plans and regretted it? I have, particularly as an older adult. And on and on.

So yeah, we have lost some things; no, in general you can't go back. So just take your trip, don't worry if it's not hitting some sort of Platonic ideal of travel.

The way I interpret the guidance is that it is better to go to Europe and enjoy a "2nd class" lodging and travel experience rather than avoid going all together since you cannot have or think you need the "1st class" experience. The message is to get out there and explore, and that there is a relatively enjoyable, feasible, and financially reasonable opportunity to do that and empowering that average traveler to do it. If you can go 1st class, then by all means, but really the thinking I take away is that do it and enjoy it because riding 2nd class on a European train gets you to the place you want to go just as well if that is what can get you there.
And, unless you have specific timed tickets (as is necessary in certain circumstances), scheduling to the 15-minute increment is not what most folks do in my experience.

Hank and Maryam just posted two of the best of the month. Thank you.

Just for the record, as I recall it, Rick never suggested that 1st class was for “different” people - superior, inferior, or with a different philosophy. It simply cost more.

He actually noted that the 2nd class car was going at precisely the same speed as the 1st class car, with both arriving at the same destination. He implied that you’d save some money, and still get there by going in 2nd.

One of his TV episodes, many years ago, had him in 1st class on a train, because his railpass mandated 1st class. He didn’t suggest there was any disdain for any other passengers, but did remark that it was “forced luxury.” Maybe it wasn’t his preference then, and perhaps that’s changed … or not.

I must say that, compared to 30-or-so years ago, Rick’s current dining recommendations provide better food. His lodging recommendations seem to skew nicer than they did originally. We learned firsthand that when Rick used to say, “Could be cleaner” about a recommended place, it was an absolute dump. He’s dropped those fleabag places from his guidebooks, and his recommendations are now for pricier (sometimes much pricier) places.

Something from Rick that “we” have lost now, is his skinny guidebooks. The back covers bragged that they were skinny because he only included the “best” locations and sights in a country, and that his readers lined them that way. His guidebooks are considerably thicker these days, with many more pages. Some entire regions of some countries are still totally ignored, but what he does include is extremely useful and engaging. For anything that’s been lost, much more has been gained.

We lived in Germany from 87-91 and have visited frequently since. We almost never took 1st class. The seats aren't larger or more comfortable. The only time we took first class was when we did an overnight train on our honeymoon. We had our own compartment for two with a sink for washing up. Second class sleepers have compartments with six persons and you had no privacy to undress and dress.

Traveling on your own with little planning years ago was fun, however, I learned my lesson on one trip when we showed up in a town in Germany and discovered that all the lodgings were full due to a festival there. We had to move many miles away and cancel our visit to that local. These days many more tourists are traveling, you must plan in detail, book in advance or you may have trip failure.

Research helps you to understand where you want to go and what you want to do. Sorry, but thanks to the internet there are not many surprises out there. Yes, you can find some spots with fewer tourists, but you must plan ahead to know where to go. For example, want to see an intact walled medieval village in Germany, go to Rothenburg ob der Tauber. It is great, but hordes of tourists will be there. It is still nice, but deal with the others. Still, not that far down The Romantic Road is a similar walled village called Dinkelsbuhl. It usually has few tourists. It looks a lot like Rothenburg.

Yes, off the beaten path can work, but you must discover the path using planning.

Personally, we like BNBs instead of four or five star hotels ( unless we are in a third world country). You save money, have a nice breakfast and can stay close to city centers.

We skip first class air, since we can handle a 8 or 9 hour transatlantic flight in second and love saving a ton of dollars. We can travel even more skipping the wasted upgrade. Also, we usually fly Delta and are frequently upgraded to comfort plus.

Listen, I realize that Rick Steves isn’t some high guru of travel. We are not on a quest to achieve Perfect Rickness. We are all individuals with unique desires and challenges and gifts to share. That said, Rick isn’t ambiguous about his advice on the merits of traveling “close to the ground”.

This is his Travel Philosophy

Travel is freedom... one of the last great sources of legal adventure. Travel is intensified living, with maximum thrills per minute. It's recess, and we need it. Experiencing the real Europe requires catching it by surprise, going casual... Through the Back Door.
Affording travel is a matter of priorities. (Make do with the old sofa.) You can travel simply, safely, and comfortably anywhere in Europe for $100 a day plus transportation costs. In many ways, spending more money only builds a thicker wall between you and what you came to see. Europe is a cultural carnival, and time after time, you'll find that its best acts are free and the best seats are the cheap ones.
A tight budget forces you to travel close to the ground, meeting and communicating with the people. Never sacrifice sleep, nutrition, safety, or cleanliness in the name of budget. Simply enjoy the local-style alternatives to expensive hotels and restaurants.
Extroverts have more fun. If your trip is low on magic moments, kick yourself and make things happen. If you don't enjoy a place, maybe you don't know enough about it. Seek the truth. Recognize tourist traps. Give a culture the benefit of your open mind. See things as different but not better or worse. Any culture has much to share.
Of course, travel, like the world, is a series of hills and valleys. Be fanatically positive and militantly optimistic. If something's not to your liking, change your liking. Travel is addicting. It can make you a happier American, as well as a citizen of the world. Our Earth is home to over 7 billion equally important people. It's humbling to travel and find that people don't envy Americans. Europeans like us, but with all due respect, they wouldn't trade passports.
Globetrotting destroys ethnocentricity. It helps you understand and appreciate different cultures. Travel changes people. It broadens perspectives and teaches new ways to measure quality of life. Many travelers toss aside their hometown blinders. Their prized souvenirs are the strands of different cultures they decide to knit into their own character. The world is a cultural yarn shop. Back Door Travelers are weaving the ultimate tapestry.
Join in!
–Rick Steves
https://www.ricksteves.com/press-room/ricks-travel-philosophy

2nd class = 4 seats across. 1st class = 3 seats. 1st class is more comfortable. Sometimes cost difference is considerable, sometimes only a few Euro.

In many ways, spending more money only builds a thicker wall between you and what you came to see.

What a whole lot of bunk !

In many ways, spending more money only builds a thicker wall between you and what you came to see.

What a whole lot of bunk !

I think what RS says is true, periscope, but I do not believe that it applies to most people here (and note that he says "in many ways...).

I have a friend who is married to someone who makes a mid-to-high-six figure annual salary. When they travel, they stay at expensive chain hotels, eat in very expensive restaurants and visit very expensive places. Their style of travel is what they like, but I do believe that they are missing something when they travel. Something that travelers like you, me and other forum members here do experience, because we don't spend a fortune on our travels. At least I don't.

Let's face it--many people with lots of money tend to become insulated from those outside their social stratosphere, whether they are at home or traveling. I think that is what he is talking about. But I also don't think that this applies to most members here. I see so many posts from those who want to experience local culture and local food. They may have flown first class but that doesn't negate their desire to have a unique and wonderful travel experience. Unlike my friend and her husband, who just want to jet off and spend lots of money.

There is a difference.

I'd love to pick up where the OP quotes Rick saying that you can travel safely and comfortably anywhere in Europe for $100 a day, and your experience is going to be as good or better as spending more money.

When I look at that kind of budget, definitely the thing that is tough for me is accommodation. Hostel beds are actually a lot more pricey than they used to be. I'd wager that you would spend more than half of that budget if not 2/3 on uncomfortable, noisy dorm bunks. Rick says all over Europe, so I'm thinking about expensive major cities and impacted tourist hot spots too. He doesn't specify a season either. So I'm thinking about summer.

A crowded noisy "cheap" hostel bunk with a bunch of college kids in Amsterdam? I'd be miserable nowadays. Whatever might be gained by that experience would be overwhelmingly offset by me being sleep deprived after having to climb off a bunk and find the bathroom twice in the night.

It will never happen, but I would love to see Rick Steves pin himself down to that budget in Europe in the summer visiting major tourist areas and make it work for 3 weeks. Light disguise, like shaved head, goatee, contact lenses.

My prediction would be that the bags under his eyes would hang down to his lower lip by the time he was done ;)

Extroverts have more fun. If your trip is low on magic moments, kick
yourself and make things happen. If you don't enjoy a place, maybe you
don't know enough about it. Seek the truth. Recognize tourist traps.
Give a culture the benefit of your open mind. See things as different
but not better or worse. Any culture has much to share.

That is such a good paragraph if you remove that first sentence. If there is one pet peeve that I have, it's a ridiculous statement like that.

"Extroverts have more fun."

Not only ridiculous, down right offensive. How does he measure?

Have we lost something by planning our travels down to the 15-minute increment?

I am sure the majority of travelers have daily plans, but not sure most are that detailed. With crowds the way they are today, you had better plan some things in advance.

Have we lost something by forgetting to seek out the "back doors"?

Honestly, I have never quite understood this "back door" thing to be anything but a place you heard about or took a gamble on to go visit. As someone said, once it appears on a list or in a guidebook, its not a backdoor anymore. I guess once I have seen all I want to see, which will be never, I'll wander off the trail and explore. Rick found backdoors because he had the opportunity to explore in his youth a passion. Also, many most people were not interested in those back doors until they saw all the "majors".
Most of us had to just get a job and squeeze in travel when possible and hit the highlights.

Have we lost something by following the beaten path?

Absolutely not. There is a beaten path for a reason. All the things most of us have seen were priorities once and may still be a priority. When someone says they have been to Paris 9 times, are they following the beaten path, possibly, but what a nice path to walk.

Have we lost something by upgrading from the quirky family hotel?

No, hotels IMO are for sleeping and rest. If a hotel fits my criteria and is owned by a family, then +++. If not, that's okay. It is not a priority of mine to make friends in Europe who I may never see again. Almost every hotel I have ever stayed in, corporate or family offered wonderful assistance when I asked. Family hotels make great stories and I have several, but they are owners and we are clients who pass through each others lives momentarily.

Have we lost something by traveling 1st class?

No, not at all. I have met some people on trains and at hotels who were very interesting and quite savvy travelers in first class. It seems like this forum is the only place where people get very opinionated about first and second class. If you say you like 4* hotels, someone will always chime in and say, not me, I love sleeping with no AC and no elevators. People are still hung up on this being a local identity. I have also experienced food and drink (pre-covid) with people in both class seats. Most of the time, people just sit, read, work and stare at their electronics. I think we forget how many people who actually live in the places we visit are just commuting and not looking to be bothered by travelers.

I always like Frank II answers. Just travel they way you want. I always say, if you pay I'll travel your way.

Good and interesting post.

It is not a priority of mine to make friends in Europe who I may never see again

Same.

I knew Rick Steves wrote guidebooks. I didn't realize that some people read them as if they were "the Gospel According to Rick."

For those who only want to travel "The Rick Way," that's fine. But make sure you stop using deodorant.

He admits that he doesn't always use deodorant.

In case you don't believe me. His comment is at the 2:45 mark:

https://youtu.be/Dy9DJg0fygQ?si=pfNX9s8gcMjZlYwc

But if he doesn't use deodorant, then how does he get closer to the locals? And isn't he the one who always talks about Americans not being offensive to the Europeans?

I’m looking at your questions, Chris, and comparing them to the many answers I’ve received on the recent “Where do you splurge?” post. Our forum participants have many different reasons for the style & type of trip they each take to Europe - some with much more comfortable upgrades than others. It’s interesting to read how we each decide where or what to splurge for a special time!

I travel to a lot of cities that aren’t in Rick’s guidebooks, often talk to people at train stations, etc. and stay in the smaller B&B or boutique hotels with some very nice back-door experiences. That doesn’t make my style of traveling any “better” than choices someone else makes for their memorable vacation trip - just different. On the other hand, the trips I took this year weren’t a completely solo, independent itinerary, and I really did miss it! As TexasTravelMom mentioned, ”I have WAY more interactions with people from everywhere when I am alone. I have my theories why, but it IS a fact that it happens.”

When I look at that kind of budget, definitely the thing that is tough
for me is accommodation. Hostel beds are actually a lot more pricey
than they used to be. I'd wager that you would spend more than half of
that budget if not 2/3 on uncomfortable, noisy dorm bunks.
Hank

And you would lose that wager!

Due to my partners declining health, our last trip to Europe was to Germany in 2017, but on that trip we spent 20 nights and spent 1225 euro for 20 nights of overnight accommodations, all in private rooms, none in "uncomfortable, noisy dorm bunks". That was 61,25€/night, about $72.- ($36/person-night) at the exchange rate then.

That was about 1/3, not 2/3 of the $200/night Rick mentioned.

Actually, our last 9 nights were spent in a $40/night Ferienwohnung in a small town on the Main river downstream from Würzburg. That was really inexpensive. The first 11 nights were spent in hotels in St Goar (2), near Füssen (3), Lindau (4), and Rothenburg odT (2), in very comfortable, quiet accommodations. For those 11 nights, we spent 883 euro, $94.72/night, double occupancy.

Just because you don't know how to find inexpensive accommodations doesn't mean other people don't know.

Well, I rarely travel 1st class, but am more likely to do so on a train than on a plane. Have we lost something? I don't know. I couldn't afford to travel abroad (not just in terms of money, but in terms of time) until 14 years ago, so I have no idea what it was like before that, but if many threads here are to be believed, I missed the heady, Arcadian days of travel, when everything was "authentic" and uncrowded and unspoiled and less expensive. Shrug. Oh, well. I enjoy my travels very much, even if I do sometimes go to touristy places and act like a tourist, instead of imagining myself to be a local. I guess ignorance is bliss, since I am blissfully unaware of how much I am apparently missing out on.

Anyway, I'm an introvert, and I don't happen to care if I get to chat with strangers on a train. I'm used to extroverts assuming that their way is better, and we introverts have something wrong with us, but if I'm enjoying myself, why should anyone else care how I travel, as long as I am not harming or bothering anyone else?

One thing I forgot to mention.....Rick is in the tour business. That is his main business. Everything he does is to promote his tours.

His TV series was originally a marketing tool for his tours. He originally wrote his guidebooks as an accompaniement to his tours. The places mentioned in his guidebook were places his tours visited. (He used to put down Naples and Hamburg until his tours went there.)

Up until a few years ago, you couldn't get a single room on his tours. Many of the hotels had bathrooms down the hall. You still lug your own bags.

He has to make this sound like the best way to travel. Otherwise, many people would look for different tours to take

I have to wonder, Chris, if you feel you've lost something not because your actually feel it but because Rick told you you have?

I don't feel I've lost anything because as I've said many times.....I do as I please because it pleases me. I don't have to please or follow anyone else.

Sometimes I read posts and it reminds of the the game "Simon Says" where you can't make a move unless your hear "Simon Says." Only in this case, some people won't travel unless "Rick Says."

Please understand, I'm not dissing Rick. I think he does an amazing job in promoting travel to Europe, offers great resources, and is a master at marketing his business.

To some of you, this song may have been written about your feelings towards Rick:

https://youtu.be/VPpd-6X3tEo?si=rVD35P10RxxbEHA2

Frank II, people should check out this list of hotels. They might be surprised: https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/tours/rick-s-hotels-where-did-you-stay

Mixed feelings for hotels. It's all subjective.

I've taken a few RS tours. Some hotels are okay. Some not.

But for what you're paying........

People wanted ensuite rooms.

Sounds like this could go against his stated "In many ways, spending more money only builds a thicker wall between you and what you came to see."

Geez, sharing a bathroom down the hall was never in vogue.

I stayed in an Albanian mountain retreat a few years ago. It was remote enough as to require the staff to stay in the hotel. I was fortunate enough to be on the floor that shared a bathroom with the restaurant staff. Made some excellent acquaintances while waiting in line, and they were gòod enough to share shampoo and soap (I came empty handed and the hotel did not provide.) I also discovered that on cold mornings you never want to be first.

I am 75 years old and MUST have an ensuite bathroom.

In today's Europe, at least in the German speaking counties in which I've stayed, inexpensive accommodations do not necessarily mean having a shared bathroom.

I've spent far less than $100 per night for all expenses (including in-Europe transportation) on the ground in Europe, and less than half of that expense has been overnight accommodations. I've always tried to avoid a shared bathroom. I've spent 164 nights in 51 places, and in only 4 places (10 nights) was the bathroom shared. I never saw anyone else in those shared bathroom.

Once, we wanted to stay (4 nights) in a small Black Forest resort town at Christmas, and the only accommodations available had a shared bathroom, so that is what I reluctantly booked. We shared the bathroom with one other room, but those people stayed out late and slept late, and we never saw them in the bathroom.

Another time (2 nights), I thought I booked a room with its own bathroom, but the tourist information office, which handled the rooms for that town, had listed the room as having an ensuite bathroom, when, in fact, it was shared with another room. But the other room was unoccupied while I was there, so I essentially had my own bathroom, the door just didn't open into my room.

For those who only want to travel "The Rick Way," that's fine. But make sure you stop using deodorant. He admits that he doesn't always use deodorant. ... But if he doesn't use deodorant, then how does he get closer to the locals? And isn't he the one who always talks about Americans not being offensive to the Europeans?

That is a ridiculous statement, Frank. Do you honestly believe that everyone uses deodorant every day? Many people do not, especially those with sensitive skin. But others for personal reasons. And if you shower or bathe regularly, there's no reason to use deodorant unless you are very active and working up a sweat or just naturally perspire a lot. Someone who bathes daily but does not use deodorant is not going to have any offensive odor unless they stop bathing for several days.

Just because you don't know how to find inexpensive accommodations
doesn't mean other people don't know.

I'm going to push back on the idea that I'm ignorant of how to find a good cheap hotel room. At this point I have something like 800 accommodation nights in Europe, the vast majority of those on a very low budget.

What were your dates, and exactly which hotels Lee? The cheapest room I've stayed in in the past two years was 48 euro, but that was late September in Tirol.

Did you have a car?

The places you describe actually have pretty cheap accommodations (my 56 euro room was in the same area). Try finding a 50 euro room reasonably close to Alpe di Suisi in August. Or Amsterdam, Venice, Dublin, Copenhagen etc.

Also, 2023 isn't 2017. Inflation coupled with much higher high season demand has driven accommodations prices up significantly. Get back to Europe some time and see. Hopefully demand slackens soon back to pre pandemic levels.

I'll stick with my assertion that a $100 a day all in budget (probably about 90 Euro conversion fees in, at most 91.6 without) in most of Europe in high season is not going to get you accommodations without some major compromises in major tourist areas. Let alone then getting by with 25 odd euro for everything all day including transportation. I guarantee you that Rick Steves would not thrive on this program nowadays.

Mardee.....some people get the humor and others don't.

My examples are most likely dated on knowing how to get cheap, nice accommodations in Germany cities, specially Munich and Berlin.

Up until the pandemic what I paid for single in a Pension in Berlin-Charlottenburg with the traditional German and breakfast buffet 45 Euro in 2017, the summer price as I only went to Berlin during the summer, sometime from mid-May to July. Such a price was (luckily ) still available if you knew what you where to go.

That's under certain German stipulations if you were willing to comply with them., ie, only cash payment, absolutely no credit card , no en-suite facilities, ie, only a sink in the room, no AC, no elevator . If you were a regular (Stammgast) , the proprietor would let you off one or two Euro being charged for others.

When I first got there in the summer of 2009, she charged me for single 39 Euro. Even then accepting a credit card was met with a refusal.....no problem. Ironically, the MC/Visa logo decal was till on the entrance door window in 2009. Every year I went back staying from 3 consecutive to 15 consecutive nights, there, the earliest calendar-wise was the end of April

This was an absolutely lovely Pension, clean , cheap, very typical German atmosphere, furniture going back to the 1970s and '8Os, the place exuded the famous Berliner Mileur. Obviously, you can expect the cliente to be all German (99.7 %) , since the proprietor herself did not speak English. She told me as much herself...no matter.

Hank, I think your $100 is close. For my taste, when just starting to plan, I would plug in $150 a night for shoulders. I care as much about location as anything else and right now that going to be about the average for my style. That mean $100 to $200 in reality. Sure I can do cheaper a litte further out or a tad more rustic, but I don't have to. In Eastern Europe I could work with $100, but part of the enjoyment of Eastern Europe is getting more at the same price. And I prefer hotels not AirBnb.

My Munich example was more "tourist friendly" It is also a Pension where the facilities are not en suite...Yes, you can still get this set-up as was in the old days.

The price for a single on the eve of the pandemic 52 Euro w/o breakfast. Somewhat higher than that in Berlin due the Pension's accepting a credit card , no AC but a fan in the room (not in Berlin), and that this is Munich and not Berlin. This is my go-to Pension in Munich, with inflation post=pandemic I expect the single price to reflect that.

Pre-pandemic I am sure that such 2 star establishments in Germany would have offered relatively cheap summer prices, especially in cities nowhere as expensive as Munich. , say Magdeburg, Cuxhaven, Bremen, Prenzlau, Meißen, or Greifswald and so on.

We almost never took 1st class. The seats aren't larger or more comfortable.

This simply isn't true. The seats are indeed larger and more comfortable in first class on trains.

The way I interpret the guidance is that it is better to go to Europe and enjoy a "2nd class" lodging and travel experience rather than avoid going all together since you cannot have or think you need the "1st class" experience. The message is to get out there and explore, and that there is a relatively enjoyable, feasible, and financially reasonable opportunity to do that

Absolutely, Maryam, I think this is right.

As for what someone paid in Germany in 2017, I don't know how relevant that is six years later with the inflation that these countries have experienced especially after the heart of the pandemic.

Fred, do you have the name of that pension in Berlin? I'm curious to look up what their rate is nowadays. It really feels to me like accommodations have gotten universally more pricey with inflation and the post covid travel bump.

But I will say the places that I've noticed increasing the least have been Germanic. Particularly in smaller, more far flung towns, some places feel like they've just left their rack rate the same.

Thanks, I hope you can remember or have a note!

Thank you for creating this topic, Chris.

We plan the nights ... the places to stay. On our first trip to Europe as adults, we had not and, as a result, we found ourselves hard pressed to find anyplace to stay one night. Of course, we don't have to do that ... but knowing where we will spend the night de-stresses our travel. As to what star level, this year we found that we usually prefer 3 star, rather than 4 star accommodations. Just more quaint and less stuffy. Two star hotels, where we stayed two to three decades back, just lack that "je ne sais quois." Charm, grace ... and yes ... comfort. Definitely second class on the trains.

We tend not to plan the days too much. It is so nice to just happen on ... the Gelato Festival in Orvieto, Piano City (music festival) that we learned about from a local couple in Milan who asked us whether we were lost after we emerged from the Metro and couldn't figure out which way was east, those jazz buskers at Place Menard (by St. Michel Church, a few blocks from Les Halles) in Bordeaux.

On the other hand, I do like to go on line and find out what is happening in places we are planning to travel. That way, we managed to get to the Stairway to Klimt at the Kunsthistoriches Museum on its last - and our first - day in Vienna, as well as the free "opening night" Vienna Opera Tickets that same evening (more of a festival/open house than a real opening night at the opera).

Likewise, this past May, we managed to get tickets to Font de Gaume in the Dordogne and then in June we enjoyed the Sarah Bernhardt exhibit at the Petite Palais and the Leon Monet (Claude's brother) Exhibit at the little museum in the Luxembourg Gardens in Paris. We only had a long weekend in Paris after 3-1/2 weeks elsewhere in France and we wanted to avoid Paris' main museums (and lines). BTW, we biked for two of our four weeks in France, and that certainly put us closer to the ground and gave us opportunities to speak with locals, as well as French and other European visitors along the way.

Bottom line. You can step up from hostels to charming hotels and still find freedom to enjoy smaller treasures and people you encounter along the way.

Travel in a way that suits your personality. I've encountered smelly overweight obnoxious people in all categories of travel class. (except my private car)

The OP's first post and reference to 2nd class train cars brought to my mind travel back in the time when 6-person compartments were the norm and fast trains were less of an option. In those old comparments, you were not only next to other travelers but also fact to face with some at a time when people, including me, were less likely to have on earphones or be looking at smart devices. As a young woman at the time, I would usually choose a compartment with a family rather than one with just men. On longer trips with a family I'd never met, it was almost inevitable that they would have food, offer me food, ask where I was from, where I was going, and I would ask about them. I think it is not just relative affluence has changed but the physical arrangement makes a difference. On one hand, I do feel something has been lost in that pretty predictable opportunity for interaction with strangers. However, I also admit I enjoy traveling with my devices and I am generally more comfortable with the current more pervasive non-compartment set up.

I come at travel from a slightly different point that many. I traveled 30 years ago with teen children. We did the backpacks, hostels, and 2nd class train seats. We loved it. But then life happened.

Now I travel in a wheelchair. I am retirement age too. Most of the hostels and hostels are not accessible. We have had to upgrade our hotels a bit. Often subways and even trains are not accessible. The nice thing is that we can travel in a more comfortable 1st class seat for the price of 2nd class. Do we miss something? I don't think so. I talk to everyone, LOL. I think it has more to do with attitude than the seat.

I'd love some new information on the back doors in Europe. Most of the ones listed are now full on touristy. We did rent a car on one trip and had some great adventures. We changed plans when we wanted and stopped wherever we got the notion. I do think that cuts you off from general population a bit more. But it made it easier for me.

We never plan on a strict time frame, unless there is something specific we want to see or do. One of our favorite things to do is just to wander. We find the most interesting neighborhoods and just look around. We have met some really great locals this way.

Now that we are retired we are going to try something different. We are going to cruise over to Europe for 2 weeks, spend 2 1/2 months wandering (in the winter), and then cruise home for 2 weeks. We hope this allows us more time in each place we see and lets us feel part of the community again.

I'd love some new information on the back doors in Europe. Most of the
ones listed are now full on touristy

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/general-europe/back-doors-to-the-back-doors-of-europe

I find that standard coach on trains is fine throughout much of Europe, much like the airline class above coach on American airlines. But in the UK, standard coach is like coach on an American airline with at times a touch of New York subway.

And when RS developed his outlook on European travel, he was much younger. Visiting Amsterdam and staying in Haarlem, really? The more I travel in Europe, the more I appreciate hotels closer in the services and comfort associated with American business hotels.

The more I travel in Europe, the more I appreciate hotels closer in the services and comfort associated with American business hotels.

My best stay in Europe to date, on every aspect, has been the Club Floor at the Sheraton Warsaw and thank goodness for that, because of all the cities I've visited in Poland, Warsaw ranks at the bottom.

hotels closer in the services and comfort associated with American
business hotels

Or as Rick put it, "designed for people who deep-down inside wish they weren't traveling".

I remember my first trip to Europe, a business trip, and the company put us up in that kind of hotel. Everyone spoke English, and the menu was in English. I remarked after the trip that I could just as well have stayed in the Holiday Inn in Peoria and had pictures of Germany in the windows.

I go to Europe to experience Europe. I much prefer a room in a private home where there is no front desk. They give you a key to the front door, and you come and go as you please.

To each his own, though I (a) would not assign reasons for why others travel, (b) suspect that Steves made the statements years ago, and (c) suspect that Rick Steves today travels differently from how he once traveled.

Recently, I stayed in a small hotel in Bruges I believe RS recommended. I will not give its name. The mattress was poor, but no problem. It took two days to address a problem with the kitchen sink, but still no big deal. But the hotel opened at 7:15 am and closed at 7 or 8 pm. And the day before I was leaving Bruges I tipped handsomely someone at the front desk for a wakeup call and a taxi the next morning at 6:45 to catch a 7:23 train to Brussels to catch the Eurostar.

Next morning no taxi, missed my 7:23 train, and by minutes caught my train out of Brussels. I no longer need this type of adventure in my life.

Incidentally, I am currently staying at Ten Hill Place in Edinburgh. Superb. I have learned I will pay extra for the comfort and consistency, which does not mean that deep-down I wish I were not traveling.

Finally, I will note that I do believe the Bruges hotel did call a taxi service. But at a different hotel, I think a taxi service would have responded differently or someone at the hotel would have immediately addressed the taxi issue.