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Sage advice needed: Austria, France & Spain (First Trip to Europe with Family)

Hi All,

After reading Rick's books we've planned the following itinerary and would love advice and feedback before we dive too deep into details!!

We are bringing our kids (16 and 12) and possibly our 21 year old son too. Plan to stay for ~ 24 days (three weeks) including travel days. Leaving from San Francisco, CA.

Our Aunt owns a house in Cardaillac, France and Barcelona, Spain so we are able to stay in these places for free--which is a HUGE factor in being able to afford this trip.

What are your thoughts on the arrangement of the stops? Too many, too far from each other?

Here goes:

San Francisco to Austria
Arrive in Vienna or Salzburg, arrive in the morning, brief exploration of the city during the day, stay the night, explore next day and depart afternoon ( 1 night / 2 days)

Take train to Hallstatt late afternoon. Check into room. Spend 2 days exploring / relaxing (3 nights / 2 days)
Go back to Vienna or Salzburg for travel to Chamonix.

France
Arrive in Chamonix. Explore (3 nights / 4 days)
Travel to Cardaillac / train available / bus / or drive? (3 nights / 4 days)
Travel by Train to Barcelona

Spain
Arrive in Barcelona (3 nights / 4 days)

Depart Barcelona or Madrid for San Francisco.

Would love to add a day / night in Switzerland (for son) if we could on the train route--and a day in Paris to see just the Eiffel Tower (for daughter) Any insights / ideas on how to fit this in?

Many thanks for any insight you are willing / able to provide - much appreciated!

Kimberly

Posted by
2625 posts

I think you might have a better time if you cut a few of the really short stops at the beginning. You're not going to see much of Vienna in one day and then you're heading out. Then you're heading about 150 miles to Hallstatt, only to head right back to Vienna. Your outliers are at the start of your trip. I know you need to keep Cardaillac and Barcelona for free lodging. Your daughter wants to see Paris, your son wants to see Switzerland.

What if you simply did this? Keep in mind - there's not really much point in stopping in Paris---or Vienna-- for one day. They're both great cities and you've got plenty of time to travel around.

Paris - 4 nights (easy city to fly into)
Chamonix - 3 nights -pretty Alpine town for your son's Swiss fix (either though it's in France)
Cardaillac - 3 nights
Barcelona - 4 nights

You could fill in nights between these stops to shorten your driving distances or you could head from Barcelona down to Toledo and then on to Madrid. You've got plenty of time and plenty of options. I try to avoid backtracking when I can and you can easily re-route yourself to do this. You don't say when you're traveling...Spain might be pretty hot in summer.

Posted by
5 posts

Thanks! Good points.

To clarify my earlier post:

We are traveling in mid-June to the first week of July.
Hallstatt is a must for the whole family ( :
Only going to Vienna or Salzburg to get to Hallstaat (nearest cities). Could fly into Munich?

Posted by
5697 posts

bkss - if you have the time, you might be interested in a travel group meeting : three groups meeting monthly in Northern California on the second and third Saturday. See the Travel Group Meetings section under "Tips and Trip Reports" on this site for San Francisco, Sacramento and Silicon Valley information.

Posted by
2625 posts

If you're tied to these cities, be prepared to pay a lot for your transfers and to spend a lot of time transferring between these cities.
At some point, you're going to have to compromise on something...perhaps a stop in Switzerland can go as you have at least 2 scenic mountain towns on your itinerary.

Your transiting is going to take some figuring, given that there may be 5 of you. A car that big will be pricey, gas will be pricey and you'd be moving a car between countries.

Here's a workable idea, but keep in mind you'll have quite a few 450 mile driving days. Fly nonstop to Munich (Lufthansa), - Hallstatt - Venice (you could put another city here as long as the transfer to Barcelona is easy) - cheap flight to Barcelona - Cardaillac and then Chamonix, then fly home out of Paris.

I believe in "outlier" cities. Sometimes I'll just get a wild desire to see a little city...based on a picture, usually. And I can work one of those into a 21 day trip. But you're trying to fit 3 "outliers" in, possibly 4. I think you might have more fun (and your kids too) with a more modest and less circuitous route.

Posted by
15595 posts

I don't understand your itinerary. I count 13 nights, 16 days and you say 24 days, so 22 in Europe, but you say 3 weeks, which would be 21 days total, 19 on the ground. What am I missing? Are you planning night trains?

First off, 2 nights in a place equals 1 full day there. You'll use 1/2 day (or more) getting from place to place (packing/unpacking, to/from train station, etc.). Secondly, don't count days, count nights.

I looked at rome2rio.com and didn't find a direct train from Chamonix to Cardaillac. For a car, viamichelin estimates 6.5 hours to drive (not including the time to rent a car, traffic, pit stops, etc.). You'll need a large enough car so that the 2 (3?) in the back seat are comfortable and there's enough space in the trunk for all your luggage. viamichelin.com also gives you estimated costs (gas, tolls).

Where does Paris come in? It's not close to any of your other destinations, and train travel isn't cheap.

Posted by
32863 posts

I'm really confused. Amongst others the numbers don't add up for me either.

You asked for insight, so, painful as it will be, here it is. Better for a little pain while planning than a lot of pain while in Europe.

You aren't clear about if this is the first trip for all of you or if you two have been before and it is the first time for the kids.

I get the impression from your post that it is the first time for all of you.

Your list of must sees and must do's is all over the shop. It looks like everyone got a dart to throw and that's where they ended up - all except for a small lakeside town miles from everything else.

I get that you want to save money on sleeping and cooking - hence the stays at Aunt's house. But you are only staying at each of them, as I read it, for a very short time.

I wonder if the remoteness of the free lodging is worth the difficulty of getting there and the limited number of activities and possibility of major sightseeing. If you want to take a week or two at each and really get to know the area then free lodging will really pay for itself. If you have to drive so far out of the way, with all those tolls and costs, for just a very short stay is it really worth the effort?

Taking a huge - by European standards - car all the way across Europe with such short stops everywhere will guzzle very expensive fuel, have very high tolls costs in Austria, Switzerland and France, be very expensive to leave an Austrian vehicle in Spain, and leaving anything valuable in the car when you park it is unwise.

Distances are further than they look.

For example - going way off the path for one day to Paris to see the Eiffel Tower flabbergasts me.

It seems to me that you are zig zagging all over the place to make everybody happy.

They will be in Europe - whatever you see will be different and interesting without hopping all over the place.

I bet you could condense this trip a whole lot, still have a trip everybody would love (or at least like) and save a wheelbarrow of cash.

My 2 cents

Posted by
6788 posts

Lots of good advice above - most of all, Nigel's directly above includes some very, very key insights. I'll try to add to that, and maybe put it another way. I'm assuming that this is the first trip to Europe for all of you.

I know someone (let's call him Bud) who has an old friend in France. Bud only gets to travel internationally once in a long while - maybe once a decade. He probably only has a few international trips left in his life. He wants to go many places all around the world. But every time he thinks about a trip, he says he needs to go visit his buddy in France and stay with him. He will save a bunch of money on hotels, and he misses his old friend. He REALLY wanted to go to Italy, but decided to fly to France so he could hook up with his friend. Next trip, he wants to do Croatia - he's talking about flying to France and spending a week there with his buddy (to save on hotels). He also wants to go to Thailand - he's never been to Asia - but says he needs to go see his friend in France because he can save so much on hotels...you get the picture. Bud (literally) can not bring himself to go anywhere unless it includes a trip to France and a week with his friend. Of course, good friends are great, but Bud is crippled by his inability to do anything else. It's irrational. I've pointed this out and he agrees. But he can't get past "saving money on hotels."

Look - your kids are young. They will go to Europe many times (the world is getting smaller and more connected: when I was a kid, a trip to Europe was only for Rich people; nowadays, local schools take field trips to Australia - your kids will have plenty of chances to see corners of Europe you've never considered). It's fine to consider input from everyone when making plans, but you need to make smart choices. Reading your plans above, I don't think you are making smart choices. Getting a free place to stay can be great. But it's only great if that's where you really want to go. You need to separate the places you want to go from the places where you can save money by bunking with family. Sure, consider that as one factor, but you need to keep the cost savings in perspective - you're not going to Europe to save some money, you're going because you want to see places in Europe. Don't lose sight of that. Especially, as others have pointed out above, it looks like you will be spending a LOT of money needlessly by trying to make your "free" lodging work. It's quite possible (in fact, likely) that you will end up spending more by trying to make the free lodging work, and at the same time you may end up missing the things that you want to see/do the most.

Frankly, your itinerary seems crazy to me (and your numbers do not add up to me at all). Very inefficient overall, and not (IMHO) actually going to Europe's most compelling destinations - of course, that (Europe's most compelling destinations) is highly subjective, but on a first trip to Europe, it seems like a really weird choice to focus on Halsatt and Chamonix, while you're not sure if you can squeeze in a day in Paris! (hey, Halsatt and Chamonix are nice, but I wouldn't make those my top priority to build a trip around).

I'm going to suggest you throw out ALL of your plannning and start over, using a completely different methodology. Maybe you will come up with the same itinerary, but I bet your trip would look VERY different if you approach the planning differently...(continued next post)...

Posted by
12040 posts

Hallstatt: Let me put it in it's perspective. It's one of those Really-Nice-To-See-If-You're-In-The-Vicinity-Anway places, but it's not a destination so breathtaking or unique in it's own right that you need to go far out of your way to see it. It's a nice town on a scenic lake. These are not in short supply in the Alps. It might make sense as a daytrip from Salzburg. Salzburg's Altstadt (the main focus for most visitors) is actually quite small and doesn't take long to explore. Vienna, though, justifies far more time. And you'd pass several other scenic Alpine lakes just to reach Hallstatt from Vienna.

Posted by
6788 posts

Here's how I'd suggest you start. Forget for a moment about the free lodging - ignore the fact that you have a free place to stay there (and even ignore that you have family there). You need to focus on where you want to go and what you want to see/do. Figuring out how that aligns with free lodging and family visits should come after you first figure out what you want from your trip.

Start with a clean sheet of paper. Make a list of all the places that everyone wants to go to most. You can ask everyone for their input, put down as many places as you want (at first). OK, you have your starting list (perhaps a long list). Next, you need to whittle that down to something manageable. Pick the 10-12 most important places from your list. Give everyone a vote or two (maybe as adults - and as the ones who are paying for all this - give yourself an extra vote or two). Now you have your "short list" of maybe a dozen places. Next, you need to prioritize this list: re-order the places on your short list by priority, top to bottom. Now you have your prioritized list. Next, divide your prioritized short list into 3 buckets: top third, middle third and bottom third. Now you have a prioritized list of places you want to visit, and a rough categorization (must see, really want to see, and nice to see if you can). Next, print out a map of Europe (so you can write on it). Get 3 different color crayons or markers (say red=top, green=middle, black=bottom). Draw a big, fat, bold dot in red on the location of your top category destinations, a medium-sized green dot on your middle category destinations, and a small black dot on your lower category destinations.

Now look at your map. Start with the big, fat red dots - these are the places that are most important to you. Is there a logical routing you can figure out (connecting most places by train if possible)? How about if you add in the medium dots? Add the small dots, too. At this point, you can probably see some obvious geographic clusters (and challenges). This is where you need to figure out how you might string together a rough itinerary. This can take some time, but start with the assumption that large and medium cities are best connected by train. "Countryside" sometimes is better done by car, but long distances than span national borders rarely are cost-effective by car. See the posts above for some hard truths about driving.

Use your map with dots to try and rationalize your routing. If you see a dot that's waaaay off to the side (Barcelona, perhaps?) you should consider saving that dot for another trip. If there are small dots clustered near bigger dots, or right along your route, great - it probably makes sense to try and add those (be careful though, not to try to squeeze in too many stops). You have 3 weeks. You should be able to see a lot (much more, in fact, than your original plan suggests).

Then, once you have a rational rough plan based on where you actually want to go and how you might go there, then (and only then) take another look at your dots, and add dots in a contrasting color at the places where you have "free" lodging - do those places still make sense? Or would you be skipping the places you really want to see so you can save some money on hotels? How much would it cost you (in money - and lost opportunities to see the things you want most) to "save" that money? If visiting loved ones (as opposed to just sleeping in their homes to save money) is a major factor, then that should be on your list of places, just like Paris and Vienna - prioritized along with other things you want to do/see.

If your dream is to be in Paris and you don't really have much interest in Barcelona (or Cardaillac) then go to Paris and send a postcard to Auntie in Barcelona. Life is short, and you may not have too many chances to go to Europe. Make sure you use your limited chances wisely.

I hope some of the above is useful. Good luck.

Posted by
1529 posts

Please advise:
Have you already purchased airfare?
Why is Hallstatt so important?
What is the most important thing each of you wants to do while on this journey?
You are hearing from a number of savvy experienced posters so the most important sage advice
I offer is to listen and act upon their comments.

Posted by
8486 posts

You are underestimating the time it takes to get from one location to another: two nights equals one day of being there; one night equals no time doing anything but getting to and from the train station/airport. You can't see a city and then leave in the afternoon. Especially with kids. To get through meals and restroom breaks, and getting things together, eats up much of your time in one place.

Posted by
5 posts

Thank you to all of you for your insightful advise. You definitely have given us several points to consider and we will likely be making modifications based on your advice.

A couple points to clear up that I did not communicate well in my initial post.

We are not keen on visiting big cities on this trip. Most of the cities I mentioned in my original post were there simply because they were points to fly into or out of. We figured if we were flying into these cities why not do a quick day tour, but they were not destinations for us. I did this on a recent trip to Kenya where I had an 10 hour lay over in Amsterdam and had a wonderful six hours of walking around the city and taking a boat tour before heading back to the airport. I pictured doing the same at perhaps one of the cities before or after flying.

We prefer the small villages and Alp settings. My husband and sons are big historical mining enthusiast and outdoors types (hiking, cave exploring, swimming, kayaking, etc.) so Halstatt offered a beautiful base camp for a day of kayaking and relaxing on the lake with trips to the salt mine and a second day trip to Hoher Dachstein, and a third or fourth day exploring other small villages or even a day trip to Salzburg - instead of the other way around of staying in a big city and venturing out to the small villages. The family agrees that this is the preferred location for us, but if there are similar locations similar to Halstatt and its nearby offerings we are open to suggestions.

So I pictured us taking the train from Halstatt (main station of Salzburg) to Chamonix through Switzerland, but the strong responses from you all suggest this is not a practical means of travel. Perhaps flying from Salzburg to Geneva and then taking the train from Geneva to Chamonix? Again, Chamonix offers the rock climbing, hiking, and mineral /mining culture (underneath it's touristy cover) with Mount Blanc, the glaciers, and surrounding peaks. And we have a family friend that owns a home there that can accommodate the entire family at a very reasonable price, so again, it seems like a good fit for the family and the "number 2 spot" on our proposed itinerary. It also provides a point to head south to visit the family in Barcelona and/or Cardaillac.

Which leads to the free lodging issue. Many of you advise dropping either Barcelona or Cardaillac. The small village atmosphere again is more enticing to us, but the car rental issue (big expensive car to fit the family) may preclude this visit. Barcelona still has plenty to offer as well as a third cultural introduction for the trip. We will have to evaluate the pros and cons of each and will likely make a decision on one or the other. However, a third option we could consider, because we need a major city to fly out of, is to make our way in a more direct path from Chamonix to Paris for our flight home.

Thank you again for the words of wisdom and helping us work through these decisions.

Posted by
11294 posts

The problem you're running into is similar to someone who wants to connect Sedona AZ and Telluride CO in a short visit. They are two very worthwhile places to visit that simply don't connect well. There's nothing wrong with your destinations, just the fact that it will take most of day each time you want to change from one to another.

Remember that the larger a group is, the slower it moves, and that a group only moves as fast as its slowest member - and who the slowest member is can be fixed (say, if someone is on crutches) or changeable.

Also understand that too much moving around gets tiring - and defeats the purpose of staying out of big cities. It would be more relaxing to spend a week in Barcelona, which would enable you to NOT have to run around each day, than to keep moving every few days to smaller towns.

Posted by
1915 posts

We also prefer small villages to big cities, and I totally get the desire for free lodging. We have friends we stay with in Germany and it is always nice to save some money ( as well as visit), but other times we don't even tell them we are in Europe because they will want us to come visit and it is really out if our way. It really isn't worth the time and money to detour where I really want to go. So, I think you should consider how important or not it is to get the free lodging. Maybe it would make sense to choose one, but not both. Only you can decide that.

Do take the time to piece out your route understanding the time in transit. Be clear on it so you can make an informed choice. It is nice to travel in a line or circle with locations fairly close to minimize travel.

I also was wondering why so long in Hallstatt. But, with your explanation it makes sense. Just know how little a place it is. It might take 15 min to walk from one end to the other. We loved it there for a couple hours, but having been there I was happy we didn't stay overnight. But, it sounds like you have a nice plan for day trips from there. I don't know what time of year you are going, but the lake on the RS show looked gorgeous in summer. We were there in mid September and it snowed on the mountains. Don't know the likelyhood of poor weather, but if you are planning lake sports, have a plan B just in case.

Have a great trip!
And come to our travel meeting in Sacramento! Many Bay Area people come up, or attend the one Susan has in the Bay Area. We all have a great time helping each other. Makes planning fun!

Posted by
1915 posts

I just looked up Cardaillac, France....dang! That is beautiful! France is a must on your list...well, or at least mine. Does Aunty need have any long lost relatives I can pose as??

Posted by
5 posts

Hey Susan and Monte--we would enjoy joining the Sacramento travel group. When and where do you meet?

Posted by
7175 posts

Working with 22 nights on the ground in Europe ...

Fly in to Vienna - 2 nts
Train to Salzburg - 3 nts
Train to Munich - 1 nt
Fly to Barcelona - 4 nts
Train to Cardaillac - 4 nts
Train to Lyon - 1 nt
Train to Chamonix - 4 nts
Train to Paris - 3 nts
Fly home from Paris

Posted by
5407 posts

Very sage advice so far. Here are my 2 cents worth:

I'd fly into Munich, not Salzburg, not Vienna. As you next stop will be Chamonix, Vienna is in the complete wrong direction and will add many hours to your travel time.

If mines are your thing, then you also need to make time for the Salt Mine in Hallein and the Salt Mine in Berchtesgaden. Three salt mines - you'll be in heaven.

Once you arrive in Munich, I'd take the train to Salzburg and base there, not Hallstatt. It makes a much better base.

From Salzburg to Chamonix, I'd travel back to Munich and fly to Geneva. There might be a flight from Salzburg to Geneva, but probably not direct.

There is absolutely no way to see the Eiffel Tower as a day trip to Paris. Just drop that idea completely, or re-do your itinerary. As for Switzerland for your son, you'll be right on the border, so just take a train and visit for the day.

I'd rent a car in Chamonix to drive to Cardaillac and then drop the car somewhere near the border when traveling to BCN. I'd fly back to SFO from BCN. No need to visit Madrid.

Posted by
1915 posts

We meet the third Saturday of every month at Panera Bread off Truxel. Look up the thread Nigel was referring to. We all sit around a large table, no agenda, no speaker, etc. everyone just talks! There are certain people that tend to be "experts" in certain areas. You can talk with a few people, then move to another spot and talk to other people. You can get a lot of information and help just from talking to someone who has stayed in the areas you want to visit.

We all love travel so much that we talk, and talk, and talk! You can come and go as you please, there is no ending until everyone leaves (for many of us...it is 4-8 hours...yep!)

I hope you will join us :-)

Posted by
5 posts

No tickets have been purchased--we plan to travel in late June next year so plenty of time.

Again, we are really grateful for all the advice and especially the alternate itineraries. Good Stuff!!

We can't make the March Sacramento group meeting, but will plan for April. ( :