Rick and the RLD

I agree, Ms. Jo. Using any people as entertainment doesn't sit well with me.

Homeless encampments in the USA certainly aren’t a viewing curiosity or a viewing attraction in the USA. Attempts are being made to try and improve the situation for some of those people. What steps are underway to change established RLD’s in Europe?

Ms Jo, have you addressed your concern with Rick and Co? Of course, I understand that Amsterdam is shutting down the tours of their RLD, but the tour concept should be stopped everywhere.
I can sort of see that Rick is trying to show Americans that somethings 'illegal' in the US is 'legal' elsewhere and possibly on the surface look like a well maintained business, but don't delve far enough into the reality of the business.

Well said , Ms. Jo

Examine the position Rick's daughter has actively taken upon helping women and men from being sexually exploited to gain a better understanding of Rick's position. I suspect RS will listen to the voices of the forum and adjust the message to coincide with their beliefs.
Thanks for raising attention to this need!

I completely agree with the thoughts already expressed, although the idea that Rick would change his message I'm not so sure about - he has had the same attitude about Amsterdam, Haarlem and Frankfurt for a very long time.

Yes, I know that you can teach a dog new tricks, so maybe Rick will come around to more enlightened thought... we can only hope.

The Dutch policy is to make prostitution as transparent as possible, so it’s regulated and so even a legal profession here. It’s the best way to keep an eye on what happens for instance in the RLD’s. So concentrating the activities there makes that easier. But transparency is above all important to see the sex workers as nearest and dearest even if you disagree with what they are doing. That’s the best way to keep them out of the hands of criminals as much as possible, but also to take care of their health without further moral judgements. In countries where there is a war against prostitution their posititon is much worse. If we like it or not but prostitution is a reality and this is the way we deal with it in the Netherlands, it’s not perfect, it’s a compromise, nevertheless it remains a struggle and there is always room for improvement.

For many other countries this is an unusual approach and for many it appeals more to our countries reputation as a place of liberal freedom and so a playground for hedonism, with the RLD in Amsterdam as the very centre of it. So that attracts many visitors with that idea in their minds and is exploited by a part of the tourist industry that is naive or only interested in profits, likely both. Mass tourism make many visitors feeling anonymous and therefore less or not responsible for disrespectful behaviour. But you remain responsible, each even a little form of disrespect makes the burden for those who can not defend themselves bigger, especially those victim of human trafficking.

The Amsterdam government with female mayor– Femke Halsema – is well aware of this problem so there are serious plans to relocate the RLD away from the city centre so away from the burden of tourism. And I very much agree with that.

Finally: Our so called liberal freedom does not reflect how we really are. In general sex is here not a taboe, not for excitement but to deal with it as grown up people. Knowing that we have one of the least numbers of unwanted pregnacies and cases of sexual transmitted infections among teenagers in the world. Thanks to a well functioning health care system, education, careful parents and most important of all being aware of your own responsebility.

Hi everyone,
A number of issues have been brought up here and I'd like to address them. First, I'd like to thank Jo for her comments as this is clearly an important issue. Second, I can sincerely appreciate my position as a male weighing in on this, though I hope you find this to be a genuine attempt to moderate a very difficult issue. I have no first-hand experience in Frankfurt, though I can speak from having witnessed the RLD in Amsterdam before the pandemic. Aside from several visits to the city, I've been an assistant guide on our Best of Europe 21-day tour that includes an optional walk-through and explanation of the RLD in Amsterdam.

The notions that Wil just expressed in his post are exactly the points explained in the walk-through, and educating people as to the differences in the Dutch approach is the point. It is indeed a compromise, and it is not perfect.

The reality is that for travelers in these locations, RLDs are famous and people want to know more about them. I personally don't think I'd know nearly as much about the trafficking, mafia involvement, or the history behind Amsterdam's approach to mitigating harm to those involved... without having had a guide to explain these points to me. To Emma's point that it is not something to be treated as another sight on an organized tour, I personally find that Rick goes to lengths to make sure of that. Most of the walk is essentially an on-the-ground lecture, and there's only one point in the walk-through where you're even in front of RLD windows and it is literally quickly walking by them in a short narrow street to get to the other side of the district.

As to the write-ups in the guidebooks, there are many who will disagree in principle. The pandemic has clearly exacerbated the issue of prostitution in Frankfurt in Jo's experience, and that naturally clashes with any guidebook description written before that time. When travel is "back to normal", the plan is for our entire team of guidebook researchers to hit the streets and mass-update our guidebook content. It sounds like the reality on the streets in Frankfurt warrant a rewrite here and I believe Jo will even have an opportunity to be involved given her past assistance with guidebook information on Frankfurt. While it was made clear to me in my Amsterdam walks, perhaps more can be done as it relates to awareness of the issues in our writeups. Jo, you're welcome to contact me directly if I can be of assistance.

This fascination with human trafficking has always bothered me as well.

quickly walking by them in a short narrow street to get to the other side of the district.

I'm curious - is that in the daytime, at dinnertime, or in the evening?

Thank you for speaking up, Jo.

Rick makes similar points about drug use in other countries as he does prostitution (ie, it's often dealt with differently there than in the US.) However, to my knowledge he has never talked about "sightseeing" places where the locals are shooting up. The same should apply to the RLD's.

Out of respect to the workers, no tour should go through the RLD at all. Yes, the RS guide needs to give a talk because the policies to protect the workers are successful, but give the lecture elsewhere. Then anyone who wants to walk through the district, or more, can do so on their own or during their free time.

I don't think Rick is "wrong" to have explained the European approach to prostitution in his guidebooks and other media - nor do I think it is wrong for an informed, capable guide to take interested tour participants on a narrated walk through the RLDs so that perspectives like Wil's can be better understood:

But transparency is above all important to see the sex workers as
nearest and dearest even if you disagree with what they are doing.
That’s the best way to keep them out of the hands of criminals as much
as possible, but also to take care of their health without further
moral judgements. In countries where there is a war against
prostitution their posititon is much worse.

Better that tour guests get educated like adults than just explore the RLD independently (and possibly mindlessly) IMHO.

That said, I do share Jo's feelings about Rick's "rose-colored glasses" tone. Prostitution is an almost universally controversial topic. Even in the Netherlands there are local communities and their jurisdictions that do not share the NL government consensus and sometimes work against the national prostitution laws. I get that it's Rick's job to make Europe interesting and attractive. But in this situation, I think his generally "rosy" enthusiasm for the ways of Europe (vs. our stodgy ways back home) might need a bit more constraint. As Jo points out, there was a fair slice of human pain in this industry BEFORE the pandemic as well. Even Wil acknowledges that the normal situation is a compromise, not a complete fix for the inherent human concerns. I think it's probably unfair to imply that other countries with a different approach are failing their citizens.

When travel is "back to normal", the plan is for our entire team of
guidebook researchers to hit the streets and mass-update our guidebook
content. It sounds like the reality on the streets in Frankfurt
warrant a rewrite here...

It sounds to me like an enforcement issue in Frankfurt. An update on the approaches that authorities take at one point in time to human trafficking and sex slavery will likely not be enduring or helpful commentary.

My views are in line with Wil's. The Netherlands have looked at the issue and worked hard to make the system work for all. One can not assume that Sex Workers are always a victim of trafficking, just as you can not assume that everyone involved in the drug business is a criminal.

A good example of the Dutch efforts is that when they found the involvement of criminal activity in Utrecht, they shut down the entire area. However, many also realized that this eventually hurt the legal workers. A well regulated system with protections for the workers is far better than the black market.

I can not speak for Germany, except that they probably do much less for the workers, and there very may be abuse.

Also the presence of Eastern Europeans does not automatically mean the Mafia, that is an insult to several nations. The same with those from Africa, or Asian Nations.

UN reports exist on the different groups behind the trafficking, Paul.
Russ, it's worth explaining, but it can be explained at a cafe or restaurant. Tourists in a group aren't buying, but they are blocking sidewalks and looking at people as if they are tourist attractions no matter how capable the guide. In my opinion, it's disrespectful to workers.

It seems it would be very difficult for RS to appease all views on this topic. He could ignore it entirely in his guidebooks/shows and not risk raising any concerns, however, in my observation, that is not his way on multiple potentially controversial situations/topics. It appears IMO he is presenting actualities/perspectives as he understands them. It is then up to each reader/viewer as individuals.

Russ, it's worth explaining, but it can be explained at a cafe or
restaurant.

True, and of course Rick's guides can do that with Rick's customers. But I've a hunch that many of them will want to have a look on their own anyway... just all like the other RLD-curious international tourists who aren't Rick's customers will doubtless be doing. It's public space, after all. When it legitimized prostitution and created the RLDs, the NL chose to equate them with other brick-and-mortar enterprises. But perhaps this was unrealistic - maybe it's the sort of service industry that really is different and involves more workplace hazards than the NL was willing to acknowledge. And the Dutch may also have forgotten that a place like Amsterdam is not a Dutch cultural vacuum, but in fact a magnet for the world's tourists - and that their unusual governmental approach might be of great interest to those from outside.

Anyway, if the guide moves the group through the RLD respectfully and quickly, as the Webmaster indicated - without creating a crowd of gawkers - or preps its participants on how to move through respectfully on their own (like tourists ought to do when visiting a church or a graveyard) - then I see that as a valuable contribution.

Prostitution has almost always been more or less legal in cities like Frankfurt and Hamburg because they were market cities. In modern times they decided it was better to have it above board and legal like any other job. With health ins. paying taxes, etc. On paper or on the surface it looks pretty good, but the reality of it isn't.
For example, in the guidebook, there is the explanation that the women (men too) pay a daily rent for a room in one of the brothel towers. In Frankfurt, it was 140€ per day. What they charged for services was up to them. There was a bouncer at the door and someone watching cameras in the stairwells 24/7. Sounds ok, yes? The reality is that they lived in those rooms after their "shift". Why pay more rent someplace else. Imagine spending all of your time in a brothel? In a room with no kitchen, no decor of your own. So, you end up paying for all those extra services, like food, laundry, cleaning. Most of the workers DO have a pimp that they have to pay money to. Just because you don't see them, doesn't mean they don't exist.
When the brothels closed down because of Covid, these workers had nowhere to go! Many of them have drug habits as well as those pimps that have to be paid.
Waves of women from other countries end up here. At one time, they came in from Latin America, then it was Asia, then Africa, today it is Eastern Europe. They are lured here with promises of real jobs, but when they get here, they end up in a brothel. You can watch that video to find out how this happens. Does the same thing happen in the Netherlands?
As to the mafia, in Frankfurt at least, these are usually Germans, Bulgarians, and Russians. Motorcycle gangs make up a large part of them. Not sure about Hamburg.

Yes, I have been inside one of the brothels, have spoken to the women as well as the doorkeeper, have seen the rooms where they live and work. This made me so very sad.
An explanation of the legality of sex work in Germany or the Netherlands in the guide books is fine, but it could be presented in a different fashion. It is still sad and tragic that sex workers have to exist. Most of them have no other way to earn money. I doubt that any of them would personally choose this way of making a living. So yes, legality is good and better than having it be illegal, but take a deeper look at what is really happening to these people, how they got here, and what their lives are like.

As a resident of Nevada, I can tell ya that legalization doesn't immediately lead to a wonderful, exploitation-free situation. Driving by and seeing what the brothels here look like is depressing, more often than not. And, quite frankly as someone who has had many close friends who either are or had been sex workers, some of this strikes a personal tone for me.

I can't speak for Rick, but I will say that as sad as the circumstances around even legalized prostitution can be, the point Rick and many advocates of liberalization on the issue are going for is that further liberalization is what is needed, rather than interpreting the existing flaws of RLDs as evidence it's all hopeless.

Even when legalized, the fact of the matter is sex work is often stigmatized. That stigmatization relegates it to the fringes of society, and that makes it very susceptible to exploitation and the involvement of ill-meaning types (organized crime, abusive pimps, human traffickers, etc). Understand that sex workers - even when engaged in entirely legal work, regulated, taxed, licensed, and so on - may be unable to accept payment through regulated banking systems; the often cash-only nature of the business leaves it very prone to abuse. Sex workers may be denied concurrent, non sex work if their other jobs are discovered. They can be denied educational opportunities, custody of their children, the benefit of the doubt in divorce proceedings, social services, medical care, so on, so forth. And again, all this for doing work that may even be entirely legal where they live and work. Using an even more recent example, in the United States provisions were put in to various COVID relief bills to expressly deny sex workers access to CARES act relief, they can't get unemployment assistance, and so on. (FYI I'm including not just prostitutes when I say "sex workers" but performers in videos, dancers, and so on).

So again, it's that stigma that - despite legalization - can make for a situation ripe for exploitation. So I, for one, am glad Rick brings attention to the issue because I think the only way we get to where the exploitation isn't occurring is even greater liberalization and acceptance to the point it not only carries no real stigma but isn't even a curiosity.

Same goes for legalization of certain drugs, or alternate approaches to dealing with the societal problems that come with them. I don't think any proponents of weed legalization think we just get to flip a switch and all is well, for instance. Rather, we understand that decriminalization can have sweeping effects on society, and especially in marginalized communities who are often disproportionately targeted in drug enforcement policing and prosecutions; something like a needle exchange program can greatly limit the spread of bloodborne pathogens in using populations and benefit the community as a whole, and threatening to round up and lock up the folks showing up to exchange their needles is counterproductive; while far from perfect, certain protections and expanded access to healthcare exists for a legalized sex worker that simply would not exist for someone operating in a criminalized profession.

(continuing in another post cuz I'm running out of space...)

Now I certainly agree that a tour through a RLD can seem odd. I don't think sex workers should be treated as spectacles or carnival attractions. Having said that, though, my impression of Amsterdam's RLD was entirely different and I have to say my first time strolling through it, I found it to be quite liberating. Mind you, I was a closeted gay teenager living in the Middle East so the openness of Amsterdam's RLD was fascinating to me the first time I walked through it. Dare I say, it was even life-affirming - a revelation. Had I dug a bit deeper, I'm sure I'd have found the "seedy underbelly", so to speak. Nonetheless, I'd spent my lifetime to that point being told certain things were taboo and entirely unacceptable, obscene, vile and distasteful. At the very least, finding myself simply strolling along the sidewalks and canals of Amsterdam's RLD when I was a teenager helped teach me that a perspective other than the one I'd had shoved upon me existed, and the things condemned and disapproved of in some places wouldn't even raise an eyebrow in others. What Amsterdam's RLD helped teach me was that different views and attitudes existed, and I could one day find myself living in a place like that.

So my hope is we don't bemoan the misery that might exist in RLDs or even legalized sex work and hope we can go back to turning a blind eye to it and blissfully pretending it doesn't exist but rather consider the merits of further liberalization and encourage further destigmatization of it.

Another thread on the subject from 2019. Ms Jo, looks like you initiated that one too.

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/general-europe/rld-ok-as-tourist-site

And :
https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/netherlands/amsterdam-to-move-the-rld-out-of-the-historic-center

Ms Jo. What you descripe and the documentary shows is very correct and it’s good to bring especially sex trafficking under the attention here on the forum. Seen the responces it’s highly appreciated.

Many larger cities (in this case we limit ourselves to Europe) with a market function or being a seaport have in some way or another RLD’s. And in all these places there is human trafficking, cities in the Netherlands are no exception. I have no idea about the size of the problem, and how much better we deal with it compared to Germany, nevertheless it’s a very serious one.

To begin I want to be careful with judgement about prostitution as a whole. There are people who like to work in the sex industry. In the course of time I have learned that many have different ways to be happy, so it’s not to me to criticise that, even I question if is this the life you really want.

Sex trafficking however is a completely different story ( I should have payed more attention to this in my former post). Most of the time as the documentary shows well it’s about young (most of the time already vulnerable) women from Eastern Europe or outside the EU who fall in the hands of criminals. Indeed as Jo says they are lured with fake promises. As soon as they are in their grip, criminals start to dehumanise the victim and as far as I know raping is the usual method to do that. As soon as they are deprived of their free wil, they have no way to go, not only physically (as most of the time their pasport is stolen too, so they can not identify themselves anymore) but more of concern is the mental aspect. They are trapped in a downward spiral of negative thoughts about themselves, intimidation by the criminals keeps that going and so missing the mental strength to ask for help to step out of misery. So the financial extortion can begin as much as the criminals can, under the radar, day in day out.

What is deceptive about Amsterdam is that there is an entertainment industry built around prostitution and it looks from the outside more attractive than it really is. It masks for a major part wat is really going on behind the facades, so it makes harder to see the sad side of the sex industry. Ironically it makes for the tourist industry Amsterdam’s RLD a “good” place to promote it for having “harmless fun”. If I look for instance to the RLD of Ghent in Belgium, free of tourism it shows how sad such place can be. Most avoid these places, you only go to there if you have a reason. So I doubt if Amsterdam is the best place for getting the complete picture.

What we can do is not being naive, a discussion like here on the forum certainly helps, so thanks Ms. Jo for starting this topic. For tour operators a task to look for experiences showing the complete picture as much as possible, looking to the responces here there is a genuine interest.

I have to say that this has been a most informative and thought provoking post. And the fact that it has stayed 'nice' and not argumentative while still being opinionated is impressive.

For those here who might wish to pursue this topic further , this book by Gail Sheehy goes into great depth about prostitution and the businesses that supported it in New York's " Hell's Kitchen " in the 1970's . Of particular note is the chapter entitled " Redpants and Sugarman " As an investigative journalist , Gail Sheehy wrote frequently for New York Magazine ( not to be confused with The New Yorker ) Her narrative is stunning and an accurate representation of the Times Square area in those days https://www.amazon.com/Hustling-Prostitution-Wide-Open-Society/dp/B0006C90M6/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

differences in approaches to health care, education and waste recycling, to name a few examples, but I doubt they get the same type of coverage.

You're right that they are probably not covered in the guide books as that really isn't the purpose of those books. But if RS tours are anything like the other tours I've taken then the tour directors/guides do cover issues like that. All of the tour guides on my European tours have explained those kinds of cultural differences and the different approaches to social, community, and government issues. Sometimes it's been part of their scheduled informational talks, sometimes by local guides hired by the tours in cities and at sights, and sometimes in response to questions from tour members.

It's one of the reasons so many people like to take tours (especially good ones), just so they do get information like that; information that they may not, and probably don't, get when traveling independently.

On our last trip to Frankfurt, we stayed in a hotel doubtlessly owned by Russians on Mozartstrasse. Thus, we traveled through the RLD leaving and returning to our hotel. This was 2019. I didn't feel like we exploited, since we were actually contributing to the economy there. And we did look into a "top-girls" bar or two. My wife and I are not much for strip shows so we didn't go in. I did find the atmosphere at night to be a little challenging. Were I to be a single woman, it might have been uncomfortable.

The reality is this subject has no GOOD answer. It just has various answers ranging from not good to down right bad.
I have been in a number of cities in the US were I encountered in passing the less then legal versions of this (having had to do surveys and measurements of various buildings) and it is in general decidedly worse. At least in place’s were it is legalized you have it contained in areas and specific buildings and such. And don’t encounter the aftermath and the participants in random parking lots and such.
And let’s be realistic they don’t call it the oldest profession for no reason. As such you are not going to eliminate it. Be it brothals or escorts or strip clubs or street walkers or whatever.

As for the tours through the RLD I am aware of them but when I was in Amsterdam I was to you to go or to understand for that matter.
But from what I have seen at least in photos from various locations especially Amsterdam they have done a very good job of making the area into a tourist attraction on purpose. Presumably to attract customers. The question is what percentage of customers are local and what percentage are tourist from farther away? And more to the point what effect will eliminating the tourist effect the workers?

As noted in the original post the workers have no fall back. They work or they go broke. So shutting the tourist industry part of this down will probably have adverse effect on the very workers that everyone is concerned about. To one degree or another. And shutting the whole district will just permanently effect these workers in much the way Covid has but worse as they will make less (legally) and be even more subject to the control of the criminals.

It is noble to try and help these people and to want to see the unfortunate things that often happen to them be stopped but before doing anything to drastic you need to truly thing through the results those changes will truly have. Because I can promise you as bad as things are over there in locations where it is legal it is much worse in locations where it is not legal.

Holland.com is the official website for the Netherlands as a tourist destination. The website is managed by the Netherlands Board of Tourism & Conventions.

You may wish to try this link: Things to do in Amsterdam - Holland.com (if it works) or enter the words in your browser.

The website link opens with:

What are you planning to do in Amsterdam? There are plenty of opportunities to keep busy for a few days. You can take a canal boat tour and watch the houseboats, for instance. Stroll through the Begijnhof, along the squares or the Wallen in the Red-Light District. And don’t forget to visit city parks like the Vondelpark or Hortus Botanicus.

Around halfway down the opening page is the following:

Discover the top things to do in Amsterdam.

Amsterdam has many attractions. The city is known for its centuries-old canal belt, floating flower market, and its red light district. Discover the beautiful squares and neighborhoods that will tell you more about the city’s history as well.

If you wish to try the red-light district link (if it shows up) to read what the Tourism Board has written, the link is genuine.

I have not been to Amsterdam or read the words in the Amsterdam guide or those for Hamburg. My values do not support the actions of the Netherlands government. That said I respect their citizens right to make their own choices. I suspect that out of curiosity I would walk through the district with uneasy feelings.

Steves and his writers have been faced with a complex decision. Business, educational, and moral issues all converging. Maybe the discussions entered here suggest he may have struck an uneasy balance.

Regards Ron

I’ve been to Amsterdam twice. In 1976 I was with my sister and we stumbled upon the RLD while out walking one night. We quickly left and did not venture that way again. My second trip was in 2015 with my husband and another couple. We had no interest in the RLD and only passed through early one afternoon to get from point A to point B. But what I don’t understand is, if the workers were not on display in their respective windows, this discussion wouldn’t be relevant. I think it is the way the RLD is set up that makes tourists want to ‘go see’ this area. Maybe moving it to another area where just perspective clients would frequent would be a better solution. Like others have said, the profession isn’t going away but I have always felt sad for anyone ending up doing this job, however they got there.

The truth is people are often entertaining, whether they want to be or not. Just the way it is.

I went through the Amsterdam RLD many years ago and it was fascinating!

I know that Ms Jo had trouble with the Forum system a day or two ago. I hope that those issues are cleared up and we can get her latest response...

I agree with Ms. Jo and Emma. The inclusion of this tour in Rick's guidebook is offensive and disrespectful to women. And I'm not someone who takes offense easily.

Sorry about not being able to post the past few days.
Those of you with a Germany book, take it down and read what it says about Frankfurt and Hamburg. The Hamburg section is kind of basic, but the Frankfurt section is practically gushing with enthusiasm. I think this is what I find so wrong. That he has his walk through Frankfurt go through here is bizarre.
When my M-I-L came to Frankfurt in 2007, I had never heard of Rick Steves, but she had his Germany guide book and she said, "Rick, says to walk through here". So, I had to take her through the RLD. It shocked me that a guidebook set up for the demographic he has, made you walk through the RLD. The descriptions are so positive and glowing too! Including the price for "services". Seriously???
Until a few years ago, they didn't even have an alternative walk. Fortunately, they do now, but it is still strongly suggested to walk down the street to see the RLD.

As a suggestion, why not include a few pages in the back or front of the guide books, describing the legality of prostitution in Germany or the Netherlands and maybe how it works with health ins. and taxes? There is no reason to describe what a brothel looks like, their locations, or their prices and there is no need to have tours there except for prurient interest. Every resident in those cities knows where the RLD is located and can point the way. You don't need a guidebook for that.
It does need to stay legal and transparent, but in Germany at least, it needs a good overhaul to fill in the cracks that far too many women and men are falling through.

Ms. Jo, I took your remarks as being critical of the way its written up, not necessarily inclusion in the guide. How about submitting a rewritten version to RSE, or at least offering to re-write it?

I think it is worth visiting - to learn, not to gawk. I had the same reaction that you stated in your first post, but I wouldn't have cared until I saw it in person and my preconceptions disproven.

Reason #1426 for loving this Travel Forum-this topic.

My initial reaction is what Tassie Devil said in a comment above;

I suspect that out of curiosity I would walk through the district
with uneasy feelings.

After reading this post I reread the RS blog regarding the district in Amsterdam and I'm seeing it in an entirely different light. I won't comment on Frankfurt as I had no idea about it. When I had originally read about it from the RS view I simply thought of it as a creative solution to a timeless problem and in my mind had the whole district pegged as an adult circus worthy of a walk-through even though it is the last thing that I'd have an interest in at home. But upon the reread I can see that while RS has written it to be educational, I do now wonder if it is a bit lighthearted. It must be a difficult balance for a guidebook and I think we need to count on people to do their own research into these uncomfortable topics to be able to form their own opinions.

Now I'm curious of how much influence a forum like this can have on the RS empire and if the page in the book will be rewritten.

It's a seedy business, however you spin it, and it's not going to disappear anytime soon, but I'm sure any good guide book mentions Amsterdam's RLD, as it should. The RLD is safe enough to walk around during the day, and can easily be avoided if you don't want to see it. I didn't find Rick's take on it to be offensive or particularly cheery (the one page I read on line), and he does point out some of the seamier sides of the trade. It's his opinion and writing style.

"Now I'm curious of how much influence a forum like this can have on the RS empire and if the page in the book will be rewritten." - With only 40-odd replies in a thread, Allan, I hope not. If the vast majority of his readers complain, that's a different matter

I agree, there are many negatives to the trade, and he does mention some of them in the article I read. I don't think it's his job, or any travel guide's job, to give a sermon on the evils of prostitution. People have to make up their own minds, for better or worse.

RLDs are inhumane and predatory. The compassionate governments should shut them down and offer alternatives. Save lives from ruin.

The compassionate governments should shut them down and offer alternatives.

And just what alternatives would you suggest?

My understanding is that what the Netherlands is doing is the alternative to having the women walk the streets or stand on a street corner.

My understanding is that what the Netherlands is doing is the alternative to having the women walk the streets or stand on a street corner.

Exactly Barbara. That's why I was curious what Big Mike had in mind. It seems to me that the Netherlands and Germany are the compassionate governments trying to offer an alternative, as imperfect as it is.

Seaports and market cities have traditionally RLD's, in the Netherlands think like everywhere else women walk the streets here too. Our governement concentrate this business as much as possible to try to keep an eye what is going on, like criminal activities, healthcare for the prostitutes and so on and for all nobody want this in his backyard. For this street prostitution in the Netherlands happens most of the time in remote places like industrial zones, the Keileweg in Rotterdam a few decades ago was notorious for this, hardly to imagine a place could be more sad. As soon as a place becomes for some reason too much a burden it will be closed and the actitivities relocated.

Amsterdam’s RLD give a one-sided idea and wrongly can give the impression that everything is under control here, a lot operates under the radar too, it remains a constant struggle like anywhere else.

The whole point of my initial post is to persuade Rick to change how he presents the RLD in his books. They should NOT be part of an introductory walk of any city. They should NOT be part of a tour. They should NOT be so enthusiastically presented as though they were a wonderful thing. A few notes in the guidebooks about the legality of it in each country would or should suffice.

Keeping prostitution legal is advantageous to those working there. They are not criminals and should not be treated as such like they are in the US and other countries. Keeping this legal makes them more transparent, but there is much to be done to stop the human trafficking that exists, contrary to what Rick has been led to believe. This is NOT a nice life for anyone involved in it and many of them are NOT there of their own free will. They have suffered immensely during this pandemic and have shown that the legality of prostitution did nothing to help them this past year. They fell through ALL of the cracks.

The problem here is that this is YOUR opinion and it is being stated as fact. Which it is not. It is opinion. And one that has been brought up more then once.
Apparently a lot of folks from around The world are interested in seeing it. If not then it wouldn’t be presented as a tourist destination. (As are some other RLD)
As the saying goes S3# sells. In this case a bit more literally then most uses of that phrase.

There is a lot of things involving tourism that someone could argue as being “wrong” and should “not” happen. Heck the very use of Jet Aircraft has a known and negative effect on the atmosphere. So what are we supposed to do? Update the entire tourist information system of the world to show the negatives of everything? The downside of expensive hotels, the working condition on cruise ships. The pollution of cars and other transportation (even electric trains cause pollution). The fact that the multi thousand dollar trips are using money that could arguably be better used if give to those in need vs spent on expensive travel and hotels that folks don’t really need to do. Then you have the damage of the tourist. Look at how the humidity of tourist breathing has effected famous works of art, building finishes and caves. So perhaps any time those are discussed in a tourist book we better show the “truth” about how they have negative consequences.

The travel guides would be turned into an anti travel propaganda book but… so what?.

Because no matter what one person likes, we can always find someone else that dislikes something and thus that item would have to be reworked to reflect that person or groups belief in how it “really is”

Note i am not saying you can’t have your opinion. Nor am I saying the RLDs are perfect. Because obviously they are not. But they are better then how this is handled in most cities elsewhere. So at least it has that going for it.
But if Rick or anyone else had to write a travel guide based on the worst or lowest opinion that a group has of something then he would not have a very fun show nor would he sell very many books.

Rick always tries to put a fun and enjoyable spin on everything, Have you heard him talking about pick pockets? That is his job he sells the fun and enjoyment of travel. And he does it very very well. It is. It his job to go into the negatives of ANYTHING. No one want yo see the negatives associated with tourism. (Well at least the tourist don’t) and doing negatives will not help his business (which after covid the whole industry will need all the good will and help it can get)

And before you say that there is a difference let me point out that the only difference is in degree. And that once we start down the slippery slope of deciding what and how something is/should be presented to the rest of the world or in a book written and sold buy someone else it is very hard to stop the downward slide.

So perhaps this is a topic that would be better taken up with the cities themselves? Try and find ways to better handle this (good luck with that as no one has found a good solution in thousands of years) and not on the web site of a travel company nor in the pages of a travel guide.

Amen!
Well said Douglas.

Down this page you can read under About Us / Social Responsibility that Rick takes social activism personal, in other words he feels responsible, so he must care about human trafficking. So "reality" is part of the companies policy, so why not making this visible in the case it's necessary.

I support Ms Jo’s appeal, regret not making this clear from the beginning, human trafficking is too serious than to see it as just an opinion or something to overlook with "rose-coloured glasses". We can discuss as much as we want how this to portray in video's and guidebooks, actually it remains guessing, the only person who can be clear about this is Rick himself.

As I recall, Rick’s Amsterdam TV episode from many years ago included a segment suggesting, to an American audience, that there were surprising differences in how some things were viewed and handled, and that Amsterdam offered a better approach. The emphasis was on the obvious cultural and legal differences, and not a deep analysis of the social implications. For “soft” drugs, rather than criminalizing marijuana possession and use, resulting in lengthy jail time, coffee shops made it a non-event.

Likewise, legal, managed prostitution in Amsterdam provided women an essentially safe career, free of abusive pimps and risk of disease, and with acceptable working conditions. At least, that was the message. It ended with a brief, long-distance silhouette shot of a woman in a colorful, backlit display window. Different situations than found in most American hometowns, and so, even just on the surface, noteworthy.

One thing about Hamburg is that the RLD isn't JUST the RLD. The geography of the place is intrinsically linked with the culture of both the RLD and the other cultural elements of the city. To give you an idea, the Heiligengeistfeld, the big open plaza where the carnival (Dom) is 3 months of the year and where events such as the SchlagerMove (oldies rock parade) and soccer public viewing take place, is literally at the end of the Reeperbahn, the RLD street. Come out of the St. Pauli station and turn right into the Dom or cross the street into the Reeperbahn. The Reeperbahn itself is not a true RLD as such. At that end you have a mix of biker clubs, dance clubs, a cool brewery, musicals (small, intimate theatres and a big one), and a big plaza that hosts food truck festivals, mass yoga, flea markets, and a Christmas market among other things. Thrown into the mix is an "upscale" (clean and inviting) sex shop. The further down the Reeperbahn you go, the raunchier it gets, but even that only to a point--you are still mixing in normal dance clubs at Hans Albers Platz--including a huge British pub that is popular for watching soccer--and then the Beatles Platz at the corner of the Große Freiheit. Turn down that street and you have more dance clubs, some with and some without pole dancing, down to the club where the Beatles got their start (it's a dance club without anything sketchy). You come past normal restaurants and sex shops all mixed in. And the church across the street. The history of the area is fascinating--the religious and political boundaries of that street (Große Freiheit, translated as "great freedom," was named such because it marked the boundary of religious freedom, not sexual freedom).

From the Reeperbahn, where locals are celebrating their bachelor(ette) parties and dancing, it's a very short walk to the Fischmarkt, which is a major attraction. Is the area a place where locals go for fun totally unrelated to sex or even unrelated to nightlife? Yes. But it's also got sex shops, brothels, and the closed-to-women Herbert Straße right on the Reeperbahn or in the side streets The degrees of "red light" vary dramatically, and they are all mixed together with non-"red light" entertainment. Frankly, this is a bit how I think it should be and reflects the overall philosophy I have on the subject. What consenting adults do for entertainment is up to them, and hiding it makes it more taboo and thus riper for exploitation. This is also the take described above by Wil.

Should it be on the tour? From a straight geography and history of Hamburg perspective, absolutely. It's a place one would likely end up when exploring the city alone anyway. Should we talk about what is happening? YES! The more open it is, the harder it is to exploit women (and men, but mostly women) in this industry. The more we humanise it--not by making it a curiosity because it already is that--but by making it about consenting entertainment and normalising it--the better it is for the industry. You really want to stop the objectification of women*? Go into the district and talk to the girl with the fanny pack who is working as a normal human being.

I don't have a problem with the tours; Amsterdam and Hamburg are port towns with a long history of entertaining lonely sailors on shore leave, and it has worked its way into the culture to the point of being part of folk songs. That said, I do appreciate the discussion because it is important to the issue. Dutch and German governments work hard to ensure protections for the workers, and while that doesn't prevent exploitation, it is a definite step in the right direction. We need to keep talking about the issue in order to make it less of a concern for all involved and thus make the entire industry more above board. All stigmas and silence do is drive the industry underground (for johns and workers alike) is make it easier to exploit people.

So, HowlinMad, is the Hamburg RLD the “premier” place for that type of “entertainment,” or is it truly a non-event, just part of the city’s overall mix of humanity?

It's both. It's a definite RLD, and if you are looking for anything from moderate (sex shops, pole dancing) to working women and men, it*s all there. It's not just a few sex shops. But it's all very business-like. The working women who are the recruiters on the side of the road know exactly who is interested, who is naive and a possible mark, and who isn't worth their effort or who is just out for a night of clubbing. They are definite professionals selling a product. But they are doing so as part of a larger nightlife scene. The attitude is that it is just business, and people generally just accept it as part of the scene.

So they can assess everyone out on the sidewalk, coming and going. They must also be able to instantly determine a group of tourists (or those not in a group), who are observing another sight in town.

What souvenirs does anyone bring home, I wonder, if any?

Normal tourist stuff--wallets and keychains and magnets that say Hamburg, mostly--is what is sold there in the gift shops. Anything else you choose to pick up there is your call I guess.

Now, the adult-themed Christmas market on that square--you can buy a chocolate male organ on a stick, complete with marzipan cream filling. Or Glühwein variations and other warm drinks with "fabulous" names. Or watch a woodworker hand craft a toy (and buy it). Or Spencer's gifts style raunchy Santa hats. But only at the Christmas market and maybe the odd store that is clearly marked as an adult store. So in that sense, yes, the RLD is a place where sex is normalised and treated as everyday consenting adult fun.

And yes, the women can absolutely tell who is a tourist, who is a local out clubbing, and who might be willing to pay for their services. My single male friend who is well-dressed and early 40s--normally the ideal mark--doesn't get so much as a second glance from them because they can tell he is not interested. My naive friend who visited looked naive enough to be worth a try for them, but only one try. Working women are actually remarkably good at assessing people and observing behaviour, and their livelihood depends on this skill; they are actually working and take offence when they are treated as a curiosity; they will tell you as much. Some more politely than others and somewhat location dependent, according to what my male friends have told me.