RLD, OK as Tourist site?

I also like that Amsterdam is limiting/reducing tour group sized from 20 to 15 participants. This may make it easier for city dwellers and individual visitors to maneuver around in congested areas better.

EDIT: I do appreciate a general heads up in guidebooks about lodging and RLDs. We’ve stayed in some pretty dicey areas in Geneva, Berlin, etc.

I admit it, I didn't know what an RLD was, so I went to this post to find out. I've worked it out

RLD = Red Light District

These activities are, of course, totally legal in Amsterdam, Frankfurt and many other places. Morally, what is the difference between this and a tour through a street market? In both cases you are viewing things legally being offered for sale, which you have no intention to buy. And possibly dissuading real paying customers. In both cases the items on sale may involve exploitation.

In the city I live in, conducting business negotiations on the street is also permitted, but only in a certain area. As there was some confusion as to where the area ended, the city council painted markings on the road.
Photo: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ct9hp2bXYAEs6_3.jpg

But normal mortals tend to pass judgement on prostitutes and drug addicts, or at least puff ourselves up by thinking how much better we are. We don’t do this with a market vendor. We admire the vendor’s goods. Do we admire a prostitute’s goods in the same way, or is there a physiological difference?
I’m with Jo—what’s the point unless one is there to conduct business? Hopefully, we can give these people the respect and privacy they deserve.

The existence of legal, authorised RLDs and running tours through them are too different things. Presumably, many agree there is still a role for psychiatric hospitals. That doesn't mean we should still allow tourists to pay to visit Bethlem asylum as used to happen.

Given human nature, there always has been and will be prostitution. Accordingly, there is an excellent argument to be made for regulated RLDs where some official effort can be made to protect the workers and curtail the worst degradations, such as child-prostitution and trafficking.

But that's very different from a company promoting or running paid walks through the area simply to profit from tourists' titillation. And, anyone who pays to go on such a tour is morally bankrupt.

I like the comparison to a food market. I have never been on a guided tour through a market. I have been on a guided tour of a historical neighborhood that ended near a market with time to explore the market on my own. I think this worked out well.

I stayed in a hotel in the "RLD" of Copenhagen. This isn't the same as Amsterdam of course. I think tourists will want to walk through all sorts of different neighborhoods when visiting a city including the business district and the red light district. I agree it would be better to do as individuals rather than as a group. I would feel very awkward if on a group tour.

I am wondering if tourists wandering through these neighborhoods might make it a little safer? Perhaps it brings enough attention to the area in a way that may be positive?

I dunno. I assume it's the viewing of people engaged in the trade (mostly those selling, not much emphasis on the customers) that some find objectionable. Would it be appropriate for tourists to tour an active psychiatric hospital or similar institution? A prison? How about former sites? We all feel it's not only appropriate to visit former concentration camps but almost a duty to do so.

Maybe the distinction should be made between those clearly looking to exploit the sex trade (by conducting for-profit tours...kind of a secondary market) and those who simply are sharing information to help others better understand it.

I think (and hope) that Rick Steves has always taken the position that this is not some "show" for tourists, but instead he includes references in his books to help visitors understand that the decriminalized sex trade is a part of life in some places, where they have chosen to take a different approach to dealing with the inevitable (same as his pointing out legal drug use) - his gentle nudge at Americans who have a hard time imagining any other way to approach things. I think most Americans who would be following Rick's books would just look once, go "hmmm..." and move on. Maybe I have an outdated view of his target audience?

Now, if Rick's guides lead tours that dwell on the salacious, then that's another thing altogether, and I'd be disappointed if that was a focus of any third-party for-profit activities.

In defense of visiting Amsterdam's RLD, De Wallen is the oldest, most historic parts of the city, and has one of the prettiest canals. Amsterdam's oldest building and parish church? Yep, Oude Kerk is in the RLD too. Do some reading up and go during the day when most of what many visitors find objectionable is not on display; well worth a lookabout

And thank you to Chris F for disambiguating "RLD" for me...I had no idea that was a widely understood TLA* for a city's designated prostitution area.

(For some reason that I do not understand, it has become fashionable for people to refer to a city by using it's airport code as a shorthand. Maybe they think it makes them seem cool. In a few cases, it may make sense - FRA is reasonable for Frankfurt, SEA for Seattle, AMS for Amsterdam. But PDX for Portland?)

When I saw this thread's title, I wondered why in heaven's name anyone here would be asking whether or not the town of Richland, Washington (a small city a few hours away from me) was OK as a tourist site. Richland's airport code is RLD.

For the record, Richland a perfectly nice place on the banks of the Columbia River in eastern Washington state, and would make for a nice place for a short visit. Now primarily known for its agriculture (surprisingly good wine) it's original claim to fame was the nearby top-secret WWII atomic bomb development complex at Hanford, just across the river (the high school's sports teams are still known as the Richland Bombers, and still use a stylized mushroom-cloud as their symbol).

AFAIK, RLD does not have a RLD. At least not a formally designated (legal) one.

TLA: Three Letter Acronym. You're welcome.

"In defense of visiting Amsterdam's RLD, De Wallen is the oldest, most historic parts of the city, and has one of the prettiest canals ... go during the day when most of what many visitors find objectionable is not on display; well worth a lookabout"

The objection isn't to being in a RLD, I'm sure many of us tourists have done that, even if we didn't always notice at the time. The objection is to companies offering and people paying to take a tour to see the sex-trade "sights" as if some sort of "exciting local cultural heritage".

Unfortunately, seeing the macabre or downtrodden goes back to charging people to visit bodies in the morgue in the late 1800s in Paris - to cite just one historical reference. Not all bodies, just the poor or criminal bodies. And the money sure didn't make it to their families.
Clearly there is a market for it, or they wouldn't offer them.
But who gets the money for being the 'entertainment' in the red light districts, the markets, or the slums in various towns? Supposedly they help some in the slums earn money by being guides, but I am against it all. I have a pretty strong sense of personal privacy and anonymity. Photographing people is not my cup of tea in general, and certainly not those being held up as tourist entertainment.
It's just wrong.

David: LOL! When I saw this post I wracked my brain to try to remember where RLD Oklahoma was, and when and why it had become a tourist site. Nope, no RLD here, although we do have a town named IXL. Which is itself rather interesting, being one of the oldest all black towns in the state, but not well known outside of OK.

I remember our first time in Amsterdam on a RS tour, the group went through the RLD, which seemed to me to be perhaps exploitative. We were warned by our guide not to stare, and not to take photos. I asked our guide what the prostitutes thought about the tour groups going through, and she said simply, but meaningfully, "They don't like it."

We've been back to Amsterdam three times since then, and after the first time I've always skipped the RLD part of the tour. (Not all three went to the RLD, but two of them did.)

The objection is to companies offering and people paying to take a
tour to see the sex-trade "sights" as if some sort of "exciting local
cultural heritage".

No, I don't support that sort of tour at all - and especially not at night - but taking a group through there as part of a larger historical walk is fine, IMHO. That's why, for the back story, architecture, etc. I wouldn't skip it entirely. Really, during the day there was very little solicitation to be seen as, well, most of the business is nocturnal.

Interesting to see what some people choose to be upset about.

You couldn't pay me to do an RLD tour. I don't get the appeal.

(At first I thought this was about some abbreviated town name in Oklahoma.)

tourists go there and take photos

Not at all what the RS tour I was on did in the Amsterdam RLD.

First, we were told not to take any photos. I would have liked to take pictures of some of the architecture, but I followed instructions. Second, we had an interesting and educational lecture while we were there as to how the district got its start and why it is where it is and how it remains in effect. And Amsterdam's district is also home to a lot of people who do not participate in that industry. Finally, no one was seen who was noticeably doing drugs. That might occur later in the evening, but we were there right after lunch and it seemed a quiet place. Yes, a few prostitutes were on display, we didn't see any of them actually attract customers during the short time we were there.

I am not a fan of prostitution or illicit drug use. However, I am glad that at least parts of the world recognize that these activities exist and outlawing them will not stop the activities but only make the conditions for those involved worse. By having a place where they can be done legally and under supervision by authorities who can hopefully prevent some of the worse aspects of both may help those eventually escape from the situation.

When last in Frankfurt, we actually stayed in a hotel in Mosellstrasse. It was pretty interesting to see, and we didn't feel like we were exploiting. We were actually just going to our hotel. We didn't gawk much, especially later at night, when some things (that I didn't really spend the time to understand) were going down.

Of course, in a RLD, the persons who are there are there to be on display. Girly bars (ALL with "top girls" on Mosellstrasse) need girlies, but they also need guys. So, they expect people to come around looking in the doors. They don't say "go away". They say "come in - have a beer".

Not ok as a guided tour site.

My experience in 2014 on the 21 Day Best of Europe walking tour thru Amsterdam which included a cut thru the Red Light District was similar to Jane and Mark's. The guide handled it sensitively and used it as a platform to discuss social policy. It was late afternoon so there were not many people around.

The night before we had walked by the Haarlem Red Light District on our city tour (one window, only). On that one we were actually looking at architecture as well. The local guide had, of course, asked us not to take pictures which everyone was compliant with however, we all got a laugh when we looked around at the gal in the window who was photographing US! We waved, she waved back.

I'll be back in Amsterdam next month on the Belgium and Holland tour and will skip the portion of the walking tour that does this area again as well as the coffee shop. My word...I can drive 12 miles to Pullman, WA if I want to go to a pot shop. The Red Light District was fairly shocking to me in 1974 as were the heroin users lying around on the steps in Dam Square but it's just offensive and a waste of my tour time now.

I'm just glad that I wasn't the only person who read the title of this thread and was desperately trying to figure out where RLD, Oklahoma was located and why tourists there would be an issue!

As a segue, how about tours to other "neighborhoods" in other cities ? I remember taking a guided tour of an "ultra-Orthodox section" of Jerusalem ... and in San Francisco there used to be tours of the Haight-Ashbury district to gawk at the hippie lifestyle (and for all I know, tours of the Castro to look at gays.)

Steph, right there with you.

No offense to the fine citizens of the great state of Oklahoma, home of the Sooners.

While I don't dispute there are definitely some tour operators and plenty of tourists who act like idiots in the RLD, I do disagree that everyone who takes a tour of the RLD and every tour operator conducting tours for money is "morally bankrupt". I had been to Amsterdam multiple times on my own without spending any time in the RLD in the evening and only cutting through during the day to get to legit churches and museums that happen to be situated in that neighborhood. As a woman, I certainly didn't stop and "gawk" at the women working there, nor did I develop some smug pearl-clutching Puritanical attitude about their profession by thinking I was so much better than them.

Having a significant other in law enforcement, he's made me very aware that whether it's a place where prostitution is legal or illegal, not every person working is doing so of their own free will. There's often a criminal organization behind some places, and there's a good chunk of underage girls (and boys) forced into the life and a very large pool of truly "morally bankrupt" men who pay to be with them.

On my last trip to Amsterdam, I was with my friend and her 2 teenage boys who are in high school. She wanted to take a guided tour of the RLD. Having watched the documentary "Ouwehoeren" a few years ago, I saw that one of the tours was being conducted by the 2 sisters featured in the documentary as they had both worked the District for 50 years and had been known as the oldest working prostitutes in the city. They were very candid in talking about how they started working in the RLD and they did a deep dive into the way the District has changed over the decades and acknowledged the influence of criminal organizations and their recruiting tactics. They also talked at length about their lives after a lifetime of prostitution. The tours they conduct are part of how they support themselves now that they are elderly. Never once did they stop anywhere with the group that was directly in front of a window and no one on the tour made any attempt to take photos of the windows.

Some RS members may be doing some pearl clutching that two teen boys were allowed to take a guided tour of the RLD, but their mother felt it was good for them to understand the darker aspects of prostitution so one day they aren't the ones standing around with their friends gawking at the ladies in the RLD while snapping photos and making obnoxious and rude comments.

Having a significant other in law enforcement, he's made me very aware that whether it's a place where prostitution is legal or illegal, not every person working is doing so of their own free will. There's often a criminal organization behind some places, and there's a good chunk of underage girls (and boys) forced into the life and a very large pool of truly "morally bankrupt" men who pay to be with them.

This is precisely why I consider tours of the RLD to be inappropriate and somewhat ignorant of the realities.

I am reminded of this Twilight Zone episode, which seems apropos to this discussion.

There is no problem, of course, in learning about how different countries deal with social issues. I do not, however, see the need to have a walk-through just to gawk at the goings on.

perhaps that revulsion is one of the outcomes of seeing such things in person rather than a Hollywood version.

Easy now, folks. RLD Enterprises, Oklahoma City, business consultants.

I dare say we jumped to conclusions on this one!

https://www.manta.com/c/mb0csgh/rld-enterprises-llc

There is an informative museum about the subject: Red Light Secrets - https://www.redlightsecrets.com/, which is maintained by an NGO/collective working with women from the area. Do not mix it up with the many tacky "Sex Museum" (there are several variations) that are located in the vicinity of the neighborhood.

Different people have different ideas of what to see on vacations. I went to Amsterdam and wasn't interested in either prostitution or drugs. I did see the influence those two make on who chooses to visit Amsterdam. It impacted my impression of the city negatively. I've read that, along with the fact that regulation didn't take criminals out of the equation, is why A'dam has been reining in both.

I too was trying to think of what the heck RLD was in my home state and couldn't imagine why I couldn't figure it out. Glad to know I wasn’t the only one!