Can we leave politics out of it?

Uh, Doug, look right above this thread and read the sticky that is there.

There are community guidelines, particularly 1,2, & 4, that address this issue and, as far as I can see, the Webmaster does an admirable job of policing the forum. with a minimum of censoring. Thank you Webmaster.

If posts get off topic and too political for you, then you should report them to the Webmaster and don't read any more on that thread. It's up to each of us not to participate in threads that offend us, it's not up to us to determine what is offensive to others.

Not in all cases but it's possible that there can be some confusion about what is and is not allowed on the forums? Although most of us understand that politics are to be avoided, that isn't explicitly spelled out in the community guidelines, although it is in the sticky. The mods, however, make mention of political comments overstepping guidelines when they delete such posts. The guidelines Nancy mentioned could apply to such comments as well, especially these days of intense divisiveness. :O(

But IMHO, there can also be some confusion because of Rick's blog, which is linked on this website? As a fair amount of the postings are political in nature, I can see where a contributor, especially a new one, might think such discussions/comments are allowed? Then there's his book, "Travel as a Political Act".... Whatever the case, those blog entries do allow comments, and I understand that it's OK to express one's views there where it won't be "off topic".

As evidenced in the recent Brexit threads, I thought the line was that discussion involving politics had to be directly related to travel impacts. But in the end, the owners of the forum get to decide what stays and what goes.

I know there is a stick right at the top.
I posted this because you can’t post to the sticky topic.
But it appears that some folks have not gotten the message.

So I was hoping to get a gentle reminder.
I have seen at least three posts of late with political reference that are not needed.

I would be nice for it to stop.
You don’t need to bring political reverences into a discussion about elevators vs lifts (fictitious example)
I have seen to many good forums ruined by politics to let it slip into this one

"I have seen three posts lately with political references that are not needed."

Translation: "....... three posts with political references with which I do not agree."

Dude, move on and read a different thread if one bothers you.

No one on this forum gets radical, but if by chance they would, just report it, don't engage and look at something else.

Wondering where these political threads are. Might have to search for them just to see what the bruh haha is all about.

Why should I or anyone have to skip over posts to avoid political comments and jokes and references in order to read a travel forum?
And more importantly, how DO I avoid reading them? I have to read the post in order to know the poster is making unnecessary political comments. It is a catch 22. You can not know to avoid a post until you have already read it and thus it is to late to avoid it.
Please note I am not talking about topics that boarder on politics like the effects of Berexit or the political unrest in France and its effects on visiting Paris.

I am talkings folks making snide political comments and references in totally unrelated topics. Thiere is absolutely no need for things like derogatory (or for that matter positive) comments about a politician or party in a topic such as is it better to take a train or an airplane from point a to point b (fictional example)

I have been a member of this forum for a few years and I lurked on it for a few more and this has never been this bad until the last couple of months.

And yes the moderators (whomever they are) have in general done a remarkable job. But A) I am sure they don’t read every single post and thus they will miss some. And B) these types of comments multiple for as one person gets away with it the next feels like they can too. And C) (this is the big point) the moderators should not HAVE to handle this as it should not be in the forum.

We all have out political views but they don’t belong on this forum

I agree with Norma and Emma.

The Admins will cut off a post that violates the guidelines so I don't have to worry about that here. I can either ignore the guideline violators, report them, or join in the fray!

Convenient that is topic is posted at the beginning of the weekend, when the moderators are off the forum. My guess is that it will be removed on Monday, as it only invites conflict and really has nothing to do with traveling.

Fine, sorry I brought it up.

Instead of trying To polity remind folks to avoid politics I will just hit the report button every time I run across a political comment.

You have me convinced.

As for the timing I have NO idea when the moderators are online, I posted now because of a snide comment made in a post I read this morning.

PS if someone knows how to delete this topic I will do so.
I never expected politely asking folks to keep politics and political comments out of the forums was going to cause this kind of response.
Sorry I honestly was just trying to remind folks to avoid political comments of ANY flavor.
But obviously that failed

There used to be a behind the scenes forum for off topic or political chatter. It was closed 2 years ago. I have had valid questions highjacked by politics and didn't appreciate it. When I asked them to desist I got similar feedback as here.
Polite reminders are not appreciated and I believe there is a comment in the guidelines that ask we leave the reminding to the coms.
If you want to delete I believe you can. If you are signed in, there should be a delete and edit link under your name.

If you want to delete your own thread, Doug, just go to your original post and hit the delete button. We can always edit and delete our own posts.

Still wondering where the raving political comments are hiding.

Why should I or anyone have to skip over posts to avoid political comments and jokes and references in order to read a travel forum?

Because that's how one gets along in an internet world of divided opinions - skip what offends or is of no interest, engage in what interests you.

Gee, I was hoping for another Brexit topic....

Some people are Left, some are Right some are in the middle but most of us just don’t want to hear about it here.

Actually, at least in the US, 90% of the people are in the middle. If only we had a government that implemented what 90% of the people want, we wouldn't have snide comments here.

"I have seen three posts lately with political references that are not needed."
Translation: "...three posts with political references with which I do not agree."
Bravo Norma! You got the point exactly. The best post on this topic. Of course, this is Travel Forum so this is not place for purely political discussions. But everything connects with everything in this world so sometimes little political mention is appropriate. World is not sterile. But certain readers and contributors would like it that way. God forbid for them to see that majority on this Forum has a different view and then you see their posts like: Oh Webmaster, help! I just read a heretic post! So - little tolerance and reason would not harm anybody.

Could we just have another separate folder for OT or politics? While I understand not bringing politics into threads asking if people should wear shorts in France, Rick Steves travels dive into the political realm-fascism, poverty and lately immigration. Therefore it would seem logical to have a separate folder for those who do want to talk politics.

I myself find it interesting what our resident Brits have to say about Brexit or our Spaniards think about Catalonia and independence. Obviously, it's Rick Steve's choice but I do think people could learn more about other countries and part of that is politics.

That said, I'll get off my soapbox now. Perhaps a good medium would be a forum about football/soccer. Go Arsenal!

Self-appointed moderator posts tend to end badly.

I am starting to like this topic.

Anyone want to add basketball? Probably the only time in my life I will ever root for Auburn!

I occasionally find remarks and entire topics here that I don't like. I either just move on ignoring what I don't like, or if the posting is far enough out of bounds (at least what appears to me to be so) will report it. I'm sure the moderators will take care of the issue soon enough. A few of the things I have reported have disappeared, a few haven't. Since this is not my forum and we are all here at the whim of the one who owns all of this, it is what it is.

People have different ideas about things than I do. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be free to mention them somewhere like here. Politics does impact travel. As long as comments on political situations are focused around travel to the impacted area, I have no issues with the discussions being here even if I disagree with the viewpoint.

So, the consensus answer to the OP's question is "No"?

“Because that's how one gets along in an internet world of divided opinions - skip what offends or is of no interest, engage in what interests you.”

Exactly right.

Self-appointed moderators are not necessary here and not appreciated by most people... it’s condescending.

Anyone want to add basketball? Probably the only time in my life I
will ever root for Auburn!

LOL! Final Four is this weekend's Big Event in my city (Minneapolis) and the games will be a Major Distraction during bowling league tonight! Yep, we have TV's positioned over the lanes.

Bowling, beer and basketball: doesn't get any better than that...unless it's the Twins. They're playing the Phillies as we speak: top of the third, 0-0. ⚾️

I was completely agreeing with you Heather until your appalling
mention of Arsenal. You really crossed a line there! “Moderator!!”

Sorry Emma but I'm a Gunner fan and a Madrid Atletico fan.

As for basketball, I haven't paid attention since the Chicago Bulls heyday back in the 90s.

Now we're really off topic.

Agree with Mark, Dave, Susan (and many others).

No sports!

I would rather read about brands of hair ribbons than about sports.

read the sticky that is there.

What is a 'sticky' and how does one find it?

Howdy there, Joe!
Go to this page:
https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/general-europe

See the two notes from the webmaster at the top of the thread list?
"FAQ's: Answers to Frequently Asked Questions"
"Political Discussions & Staying on Topic"

Those are stickies. On the RS site, they're placed by the webmaster, stay put until that Web Guru decides otherwise, and have no comment section ("add reply"). They don't appear at the top of every forum or may have different text, for instance:

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/day-tours

No sticky at the top of that one. Make sense?

Perhaps I'm the only one, but I agree with you, Douglas. I don't think this site has a lot of political comments, but I would like it better if it had none. And it doesn't matter what the opinion is, despite what Norma says. I personally can't stand a certain prominent US politician, but I don't come here to read about him.

Realistically, pleading for people to stop is not going to help. It's a free country, and everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. Fortunately, the moderators on this site do any excellent job.

So, the consensus answer to the OP's question is "No"?

I think so; if not a collective "bite me", although the forum decorum disallows the use of such lurid terminology.

Kathy-- Thank you

Did not know that the 'webmaster' post was called a 'sticky'
( I never looked that closely at the icon in front of 'webmaster'-- I just saw it as a "file folder" icon , not a post-it type "sticky" note )

I personally have not noticed any political comments on the forum, though I admit I only read selected topics that appeal to me. I suggest when people encounter political comments, that are specifically discouraged on this site, they refer them to the moderator and let her deal with them. Posting a topic asking folks to refrain from political comments, as the OP has done, only opens the can of worms we are now seeing -- with many different viewpoints expressed -- and most everyone thinking they are right. I subscribe to several political websites and enjoy the discussions on them, but think we really do not need them here.

I'm very surprised by the reactions to this post. He reminded the forum participants that this is a travel forum, and not a political one. Does that make him a "self-appointed moderator?" I don't see that. I also disagree with the "If you don't like it, don't read it" point of view. Why is it not, "If it's not about travel, don't post it?" It's not a question of hiding from opinions you disagree with. This forum has a specific purpose. There are many other venues on the internet for discussing politics or general chat. I see nothing wrong with reminding people that this is a forum for discussing travel. Sending complaints to the moderator should be a last resort, not a first.

If you want to make comments about whether Brussels is worth visiting, and I disagree with them, that's fair enough. If you want to say that the Trump Hotel in Washington is overpriced, or wonderful, that's fine. If you want to discuss whether Brexit will affect your next trip, that's on-topic. Discussing President Trump or Theresa May is not on-topic. There's nothing wrong with mentioning that when the discussion drifts in a political direction.

Many of us here were kicked off of political discussion forums because we kept diverting the topic to travel talk.

Ooh, Tom_MN, I’ m beginning to sense a kindred spirit in you, both from your “political” comment and your attitude toward reading about sports.

Travel and politics are not mutually exclusive, learning about a certain region or country's socio-political challenges can deepen a travel experience, which is coincidentally the topic of Mr. Steves' book "Travel as a Political Act". I always look for opportunities to learn about a country's current political climate "on the ground", I find talking to cabbies quite enlightening, of course one can agree or disagree.

For example, I would hope that when people visit Spain, they come away more aware of the socio-political forces that a currently pulling my country apart. Maybe they don't fully comprehend those forces, but at least they become more aware of our current challenges.

Have to say it.. but this term which was coined in our popular political vernacular recently comes to mind.

"Butt hurt"

I agree with Norma.. usually people complain when they dont like a political comment.. NOT when they agree with it.

Ps I sure wish someone would find me the offensive posts.. I want to read them.. they are probably interesting..

The Twins won 6-2. Yay.
O crap...sorry, Tom!

Douglas,

Could you indicate which political post you found offensive? I’d be interested to see what it says.

The forum is a community of people of varying backgrounds and political views and sometimes comments do stray a bit off topic. People often like to discuss things in an informal way and at times their personal views end up in the discussion. Any comments that stray too far are dealt with by the Webmaster and his team (who don’t work on weekends).

In the long time I’ve participated on this forum, I’ve always found the Webmaster to be fair and objective in editing posts that didn’t fit forum guidelines. If you think a particular post is offensive, simply hit the “Report” button and the web team will have a look at it.

I tend to ignore posts that I don’t like and just move on.

emma said it for all of us. Or almost all.

I agree with Ken. This website has posted its rules, they should be respected and they should deal with them if they are not.

A while ago I created a thread that did not have a political content, but the webmaster deleted it and sent me a nice message saying she liked it, but felt that it would generate political comments which she did not want to encourage. I thought she was very reasonable.

I agree it would be helpful to know what the political posts are. I see some fairly off-topic political comments about Israel and President Trump on some Budapest posts made in the early morning hours today by a poster who primarily seems to be here to be a a provocateur -- that poster has called Munich/Berlin 3rd rate tourist attractions, Venice a slum, and Saxon Switzerland "impressive if you don't know better."

I'm curious about the hidden chatroom that disappeared 2 years ago? News to me. Where was that?

The sticky about political posts had its origin in the refugee topics of 2015, which were certainly on the offensive side. Just in case anyone is wondering.

a poster who primarily seems to be here to be a a provocateur

I questioned his sanity when he posted "Basel is of little touristic value".

This person has issues.

...I guess I should add "or the poster is a highly-opinionated person." She or he does seem to try to be helpful in a number of posts, too.

Now i understand what doug may be referring to. I saw an offensive post from that person this morning. This is a newbie poster, not the norm here at all, and will soon be gone if he continues his rude posts. But to start a thread addressed to everyone possibly because of one unpleasant person is like hitting a fly with a hammer.

Susan, that poster's history goes back to 2016. Is that a newbie still....or just due to few(ish) posts? 2+ years on a forum does not a newbie make, in my book. They could have been lurking all the time in between posts.

I would love to ignore politics altogether, but unfortunately it's a living, breathing aspect for many people. Perhaps you live in a place where politics does not affect if/how you travel. Lucky you!

For the rest of us, especially in the US, politics are unfortunately an active issue where travel/borders are concerned.

Tom, I wish I could remember what post it was discussed on, but politics came up during the Catalan referendum in 2017 and I was told then that there had been a forum some used that had used but wasn't available to all anymore. Maybe those long term members can fill you in.

The one I remember recently was a pretty general comment -- something to the effect that the current political climate/leadership ??? had little regard for the truth. No names -- just a flat statement. Hardly offensive, at least IMO. We have had more political pointed discussions in the past. I do not remember any off-topic discussion forum here any time in the past. Fodor's has one.

Maria, i didn’t look beyond how many posts that person had to see when they started. You make a good point though. But yeah, i said newbie based on post count.

"I find the idea of reporting each other for making "political" comments infinitely more unpleasant than being exposed to views I might disagree with."

Although it's not desirable to be squealing to the Webmaster for every post one finds offensive, I suggested that as the web team is the only definitive authority to determine what's appropriate and what's not. An easier solution is to simply ignore posts that one doesn't like and move on.

I agree with Ms Jo. and other here too.....I see a blatant political comment/remark etc, which will show up, maybe I might choose to read it, maybe it's not worth reading, who knows, I tell myself I had better avoid it, pass on by...and forget it.

When I see political comments, I tend to roll my eyes and keep moving.

@ Dave..".Munich and Berlin third rate" ...Unerhört !.

@ Susan..."...hitting a fly with a hammer." Eloquent ...like trying to kill a mosquito with a hand grenade.

Fred, that’ll kill a mosquito alright!

Imagine traveling and ignoring the politics of where you traveled. Sort of a waste of an opportunity to learn and be a better person. Okay, dont ignore them, but dont ever mention your impressions as that might offend someone. Okay, I got it. Excellent!!

I’m with Carlos. When the founder of the website has a book called ‘Travel As A Political Act’ it seems unreasonable to me to expect that political subjects will never appear on the forums.

The admins do a pretty fair job I think in deciding what threads can run and for how long, and it’s their party anyway, so I’m happy to leave it to them to make the final decision. Emma’s right, and I won’t be reporting anybody who posts a view or opinion (political or otherwise) that I disagree with. I might even learn something!

Ian

Rick Steves is very political.

I've learned expressing opinions about the Royals is political and excites some people.

If you enjoy political discourse, come over to the Rick Steves FB page. There you can chat all you want about it and no one deletes it unless it goes against FB policy. No hate speech, etc.

Very well James! Look at all these replies. Would we get so many if we asked how to get from town X to town Y in the country Z? That tells me that many people maybe most of them on this Forum are interested in politics. Even the name of the Topic says that. Thank you, douglasjmeyer. So play, children, when you can. When parents come tomorrow, it will be over.

As this topic has no actual political content, personally I’m betting it may be locked but not deleted.

Edit: With the addition of the health care issues at the bottom of the topic, bet withdrawn.

It does make a difference that the discussion is contained to this thread? It's when a political comment having nothing to do with a travel topic ends up running that topic completely off the rails that it's a problem.

Ya'll here are also behaving like mature adults. This sort of civility doesn't always happen - as evidenced by some of the behavior I see on some other sites with comment sections - so I guess I understand the mods not wanting to open that door? We could end up with all sorts of posters who are ONLY interested in flaunting their politics on the site and contributing nothing of travel-related value.

Re: civility. With a few exceptions this board does remain civil, unlike say Fodors. I don’t know how much that has to do with moderating (but I think this board may be over-moderated), the gentle tone set by Rick in his videos and who is attracted to that, or the unlimited ability of posters to edit or delete unwise or misinterpreted posts.

“I think this board may be over-moderated”.... Agree completely.

ianandjulie; Ditto.

The board over moderated? Being a frequent victim of the moderation I can still say, I dont think so. Its a pretty impossible job and they do well at it.

Mature and respectful discussions? I once bet the moderator that we couldnt have a topic about the ethics of traveling to certain countries without it degrading into insulting chaos. He said I was wrong and put the post up himself. I ended up paying up on the bet. So the folks in this forum can have mature and respectful arguments. The problem isnt so much with the people who disagree as it is with the few, very few, who want to label anyone who they disagree with. Oh, and yes, we have a few haters out there too. But again, a very few..... Best to love them.

Generally, I am aware of the political scene in the country in Europe I am visiting at the moment. In some countries I don't care. Agreeing with it is another story, obviously,

Certainly I wouldn't be agreeing with the politics of a single party police state like Russia or China were I on a tour group there to cite extreme examples.

There are those here who don't mind engaging in a political discussion with civility, which is pretty much the case, as pointed out often above. There are those who are less inclined to get into it.

Lastly, there are the governing guidelines/rules here that constrain that desire (tempting?) to go into talking politics even within the framework of traveling and dominated by civility.

"...degrading into insulting chaos." Eloquent, exactly...like a political food-fight.

When I see political comments, I tend to roll my eyes and keep moving.

Just for the record, I'm thinking more about grossly off-topic comments or random "cheap shots" that don't serve any purpose related to the thread. I agree with others that those are rare.

Politics are intricately woven into some of the places visited, so it's hard to separate that from the place at times. For example, there was a really interesting discussion in the Hungary Forum about how Budapest (and life there) has evolved from communist times to the present over the last few days. I guess perspectives on communism, socialism, and capitalism are to some degree political, but also part of the history of the place. It's hard for me to imagine the OP is making reference to things like that.

If a post offends you, report it. I have found many Europeans love to talk politics so you might want to avoid those conversations while traveling. Not me.

The debate is now more and more getting to the core. Many years ago when I came to this country after escaping my country at that time communist I thought I got to freedom paradise. Freedom of speech. Under communism you could end up in prison just for a political joke said in front of wrong people. Despite that politics were being discussed at pubs. Maybe beer was opening mouths. Almost all Europeans like to discuss politics and I think that many if not most of them are good at it perhaps because they train so much. Soon after coming to this country I learn the expression: political correctness. It encompasses many aspects of life. To my European eyes and ears it looked and sounded funny to ridiculous. For example: don't discuss/debate politics and religion. Why? Because our opinion may differ. And that's exactly what is needed for lively debate. Otherwise we can have debate about weather but quite fewer people would be interested in it. Unfortunately political correctness is having profound effects on debates at school, colleges, universities, so young Americans are not learning how to debate. You could read in several posts on this topic: "I was offended by reading something I don't agree with. Webmaster, help!" I can see judging how many people joined this lovely debate that I am not alone liking this refreshing and not always politically correct debate. I can disagree with you, you can disagree with me, we can use various arguments to support our opinion, idea, but never this one: "Your idea is wrong because you are a moron." Webmaster attention then would be indicated. This is Travel Forum about traveling in Europe. As most of us know Europeans are not shy to debate politics. When we travel to Europe we are representatives of our country. For that we want to be good and not to get offended but instead to find arguments for our opinion. We need to train because Europeans train for it since childhood. So instead of "Webmaster help! I read something I don't agree with and I am offended", explain why you don't agree with it or just skip it.

Ilja: that’s not the original meaning of political correctness, although whenever it appeared (circa late 80s) it was never clearly defined and meant whatever the speaker wanted.

Many Americans are poor at conversational conflict so avoid politics for that reason. It’s a lack of skill, compounded by people mostly listening to others talk about politics over media without actively participating.

Also people echo the national conversation in their own speech (there’s not a lot of original thought going on) and the US national conversation can be pretty infantile, more so than in Europe.

For what it's worth, I actually quit another forum (on information marketing) that had an explicit "no politics" rule because they did not enforce the rule, and interspersed with posts on topics I was interested in, I would read cold-hearted, ignorant, bigoted political comments that made my blood boil.

I sent a private note to the forum owner saying that I was going to quit if he didn't enforce the rule. It didn't really change, so I quietly left.

That was a forum membership I paid around $100 a year for, and would otherwise have stuck around for years. In addition to the monetary loss the forum owner experienced from me leaving, I was a knowledgeable and valued contributor to the forum. So that was another loss.

I guess the owner calculated his own comfort with the political comments into the equation.

Douglas, I understand what you were complaining about, although I personally have not witnessed much gratuitous political commentary on this Rick Steves forum.

Ilja and I agree on political issues maybe 60% of the time. This is one of those times.

The idea of facing a political question and then rolling your eyes and walking away is alarming. Does that same person vote? If not, then I guess its okay. But voting should be a cherished obligation and doing it from an informed position should be the most cherished ethical responsibility. How can you do that without asking thousands of questions or floating your beliefs to see if they hold up to scrutiny? I do it, and because of that my beliefs are constantly evolving.

Europe is a great testing ground. You want socialized medicine. Fine, quit reading the same old new stories with one slant or another, take a trip and visit a clinic. What? Sure why not. I look for excuses to participate in the places I visit. I need a physical or that pesty old PSA test; I get it done on vacation. Why not? Then talk to the doctor or the person sitting next to you in the waiting room. At lunch talk to the waitress about her hours and benefits. After all, ALL Europeans make a "living wage" which is why we don’t tip them... (ha). Now go to Barcelona or Paris or London or where ever and get a real estate agent to look at homes. I did this in Budapest and ended up buying one, but that wasn’t the intent. I just wanted to see how they lived ... on their "living wage". No judgments, just a realization that nothing in life is free and balance has to be found somehow. I have a friend that lives on the other side of Budapest from where I stay. He is up in the beautiful hills of Buda. He has a car! Why?? Because Europe’s wonderful mass transportation system sometimes only works in the inner city and he wanted a garden ……… and a larger home. Hmmmm, how does that relate to my decisions in the US. Am i wrong to have a detached home on a half-acre of land? Would a European style mass transit system fix anything? Or would we all have to return our homes to nature and move into the city? Is it fascist to say yes??

Anyway, the point is, you are there anyway, might as well ask a million questions, make no judgments about things you as a tourist will never understand and take home the best of what you find with a knowledge that everything has a monetary and social cost. (soap box just broke)

Seems like making a mountain out of a mole hill.It doesn't happen often. Nothing is perfect. If I read a post that I don't like I just move on.

"...keep moving" . Yes, like the Hank Snow's song, "Keep a Moving On."

Many observations, comments expressed here I agree with and find to be accurate when traveling in Europe and Germany regarding Americans, Europeans and the topic of talking, debating about politics

Whether talking to Europeans on politics in the course of a trip , be they , based on recent trips, Germans, Serb, Bulgarian, Czech, using English or German, and if something I hear is outlandish, may be even shocking, I may be taken aback but not offended, besides my personal sense of being offended is seen by the interlocutor as irrelevant.

James:

I agree it would be interesting for an American to sample medical care in both of the 2 major European health delivery systems:

a single payer system (UK, France, Italy)

vs

a private insurance and facility system with price controls (Germany, Austria, Netherlands).

Tom_MN; but they would also have to astute enough to examine the tradeoffs elsewhere in society and not be so obtuse as to assume its all free.

I agree it would be interesting for an American to sample medical care
in both of the 2 major European health delivery systems: a single
payer system (UK, France, Italy) vs a private insurance and facility
system with price controls (Germany, Austria, Netherlands).

We already have single payer systems that use taxation as the main source of financing - they're called Medicare, Medicaid, VA, and Tricare. Millions of people have "sampled" such care (74 million in Medicaid and 60 million in Medicare alone). VA is the only "closed" system that I know of (I'm not in the military so don't know how Tricare works) where the providers are actual government employees and the facilities are government-run, like the NHS. The others rely on the private sector for care delivery. Any system with capitated rates (Kaiser Permanente and HMO models) or managed care (such as Medicaid, which is delivered by private managed care contracts with capitation) has price controls - the providers get paid only so much per person and they have to figure out how to take care of those populations within that budget. So you don't have to go to Europe to find examples of how these work (aren't many folks on this forum on Medicare?). But generally speaking, except for publicly funded programs, there are no price controls and no real competition in many parts of the country for the largest segment which is employer-provided commercial insurance (and also the individual market), hence the costs are rising, rising, and rising with no end (and will be over 19% of GDP by 2027). My own perspective having lived in Europe and the US is I hate the insurance games, the lack of transparency of pricing (and inflated rates for just about any input), and the constant balance-billing and pushing the paperwork around to whomever they can get to foot the bill. Tons of administrative waste, overutilization, underutilization, and still many people simply left out with no insurance at all they can afford (see the National Academy of Science's Institute of Medicine studies). Thank goodness I don't take any prescription drugs or have any health issues.

As a Canadian who benefits from universal Medicare, I can assure James E that all of us know it is not free but we are happy to pay for it with our Income Tax. You need not be particularly astute to know it is a "good thing" for money well spent. Of course, anyone here is free to travel to the US of A and pay a Prince's ransom for treatment, should they wish to do so.

I don't know how many percent I agree with James but I can imagine that I am a little bit more liberal and he is a little bit more conservative. It could be also because he lives in Texas and I in Seattle area. There must be something in the air there which makes you conservative. James is right there - it is always something for something. You want socialized healthcare you have to sacrifice something for it. It will help most people but some will not be better of. Nothing is black and white, all is certain shades of grey (maybe fifty?). James and I have certain advantage comparing to other travelers to Europe. He has his second home there and therefore he can see Europe in deeper nuances. But then again he knows Budapest then Hungary then Europe. And Hungary is not all Europe as it's not Germany or Norway or Portugal, etc. In order to have a good political debate you have to be fluent in their language (fluent means not just be able to buy something or ask your way to railroad station) or they must be fluent in your language. We all know which European countries have a majority of people fluent in our language. Neither Hungary or Czech Republic are among them. But of course you find fluent speakers in those countries, too. But fewer. My advantage: I grew up there and speak language and intimately know culture there. Of course I know it's not only James and me on this Forum. I noticed many others who live there and are either expats or natives or go there very often and are bilingual or more. Everybody agrees that is much easier for us to understand Europe. But even for a monolingual first timer visit to Europe (or elsewhere outside USA) significantly widens their horizon.

Its all about being astute enough to take advantage of the opportunities that travel presents. And you are absolutely correct about my knowledge base. At best its incrediably limited. But also everyone should be smart enough to reject "he lives there so he should know" sort of statements. Or "hes been there a 100 times so he should know". Cause there is 350 million in the US and we all live here and there is very little consensus on anything. Why would anyone expect Europe to more simple in such matters..... All this rhetoric is to get you thinking. To ask questions and to at least make partially informed decisions.... cause we are faciing the same decisions here in the US.

Canadian teachers I've met have told me that it is their view that the system of "universal Medicare" in Canada is a birth right and is seen as such , not a privilege as driving a car is under Calif law.

Totally agree with Iija's assessment of what language fluency entails in order to pursue a discussion on a topic such as a country's health system and so on. You have to be what I call "fairly fluent" in their language with all the subject jargon, be it French, German, Spanish, etc or "they" have to be likewise in English to carry on any sort of meaningful exchange on the topic.

Tom_MN; but they would also have to astute enough to examine the tradeoffs elsewhere in society and not be so obtuse as to assume its all free.

I don't there are in any substantial tradeoffs for Americans in adopting a German-style health delivery system with drug and procedure cost controls, it just costs less.

Doug, if you want to live in an echo chamber that's fine, personally I find exposure to differing opinions far more healthy.

So if we just tell eveyone they cant charge as much, everything (quantitiy and quality of doctors, number of offices, amount of research and development of new drugs, investment in new private hospitals, etc) will keep flowing at the same pace? See, somehow I doubt that. Most things in life have three sides: Quantity, Quality and Cost. Like a triangle. If you change the dimensions on one if the three sides something has to change on the other one or two. But its a good debate and i dont pretend to have the answer.

I did do a little reading, which is why I love being able to have these discussions on the forum, and, well, the German system is not all rosy. Its not terrible either; better than ours in some regards, worse in others. On ballance somewhat impressive, but not totally.

Tom_MN, you said "I don't there are in any substantial tradeoffs" if what i read is correct, then a lot of women will be disagreeing with you.

What is important from the travel perspective is that you become aware of the choices and you get a little handson experience....

@ James...Your reading on the German system did you justice. Pretty much the same conclusions you draw as what Germans have told me over the years, be they Social Democrats, Greens, FDP, or CDU voters. In spite of its short-comings, or even abuses, they don't want to change it, except for those Germans holding the view that copying America is the way to go.

One German I know, a Biology teacher, certainly no left winger, upon hearing about Obama-Care health system being put in effect, said the health system was, in his word, "überfällig." (overdue). I reminded him historically that public opinion polls in the US show more than a majority opposing it.

“The board over moderated? Being a frequent victim of the moderation I can still say, I dont think so.”
James, based on your personal experience i can see your point.
In my personal experience, it is.

Susan, not sure the point you are trying to make. I get deleted on a fairly regular basis. Generally for one of two reasons. 1) Conservative thoughts or 2) getting too political when pushing back against permitted liberal thought. But I look at it this way. It's Rick Steves toy. It belongs to him. I am a guest, you are a guest, we are all just guests. He has the absolute right to moderate it any way he wants to. I, you, noone, has any right to this platform.

But I love to talk politics. Its my weakenss. Unlike many that detest me, I dont know it all yet. And this is how I learn. Even this forum has softened my views on a few subjects and reinforced them on a few others. For that I thank Rick and all of you.

Fred, the most obvious thing that Americans would have issue with with the German system would not bother me at all. Actually from what I read it is a reasonable solution to a very difficult issue; just not prefered solution. Oh, there was a second issue that Americans might find troubling (but again, not me) is that if you are wealthy you can opt out and get better care and better service.

OHHHH!!! And another complaint to the moderators is aimed at people who talk too much on here. There are some that think it should be limited. As you can see, i am the recepient of that complaint quite often ;-)

I’m saying i see your point.
My experience has been different.

I think a political/historical knowledge of places one travels to can be helpful. Just knowing the history of how the various borders came about is helpful, or why taxes are high, but public services like public transportation are good. Or why one finds more viable political parties that Europeans vote for compared to the US (hint proportional representation has a lot, but not all, to do with that). I remember being in Italy in June of 1984 before the European parliamentary elections and seeing all the political posters and even went to a few rallies in Perugia, with my sister helping out as translator. If one wants to get an idea of what life is like on the ground for real live people in Europe, becoming familiar with their politics and political systems, and history is helpful and can lead to a more meaningful travel experience.

I really like all these different opinions about healthcare, etc. About over-moderating - Susan and James. True, it is Rick Steves toy and it has its rules which are interpreted by Webmaster. I don't envy him his job. On the other hand without us contributors would be no Travel Forum. Maybe without few of us - heretics (perhaps not so few - reading this Topic) it would still exist but with less spice. And majority of people like the spice. Look how many posts this topic got in a little bit more than 24 hours. Back to over/under moderating. I cannot say if this Forum is over-moderated or not. I have never done anything like this. I think if I were a moderator I would have a slightly lighter hand. But I probably have little different life experiences. I grew up under censorship and became very sensitive in that aspect and on the other hand when I went through university in that place and time political correctness did not exist. And we don't know what are R.S. wishes concerning Travel Forum moderating.

I always enjoy your posts Ilja. James and i are good, we’ve just had different experiences and therefore a different perspective.

Thanks to the OP for not following through on deleting this discussion, has been quite the interesting read ;)

@ James...points well taken. Thanks for the explanation. I've thought of this issue pertinent to health systems between the US and Germany ever since my first trip in light of all the similarities, political, etc. I'll leave at that since delving into politics will get me deleted...you won't be the only one due to your "sage comments."...lovely, eloquent.

As I pointed out above, I was/am aware of the "political" atmosphere of the place I happen to be visiting at the moment.

A couple of examples come to mind...in 1999 I was visiting Toulon for the 2nd time, ran across a political sticker behind a traffic sign or something like that. It was a "FN" sticker, Front National, ie LePen's fans since Toulon had voted in a LePen mayor.

In 2014 I was doing the day trip to Melk, saw on a sign a sticker for the FPO (Freiheitspartei), that party of the extreme right in Austria, whose (later) leader Hoefer just lost by a shade of difference before the results were thrown out.

In 1999 I took a day trip from Berlin to the Spreewald area to Lübbenau, (historical place due to 1813 events) when I saw another right wing sticker, that of the DVU (something like that), which was one of minor extreme right that could not poll the needed 5%

It pays to read these posters and stickers to see the lure of slogans.

Of course, Susan, you live in San Francisco and he does in Texas. As I already said in one of my posts above there must be something in Texas air causing it.

You’re right Ilja, must be Texas air...

It cannot be SF air. I don't live there and still am affected similar way as you. Susan, you deleted your comment about SF air and now my comment does not make much sense, nevertheless I leave it there.

Look like politics is really beating the competition in terms of popularity!

Here's a fun "game" on NYT that compares the various world healthcare systems, as well as a published international study...for those who want to learn more. There are a lot of nuances and tradeoffs between various systems. I've been following healthcare policy for years but tend to get too animated over it, so I'll just leave it at these two links:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/09/18/upshot/best-health-care-system-country-bracket.html
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2017/jul/mirror-mirror-2017-international-comparison-reflects-flaws-and?redirect_source=/publications/fund-reports/2017/jul/mirror-mirror-international-comparisons-2017

Sure glad I am not the webmaster who will be looking at this on Monday.

Root canal and IRS audit, anyone?

Agnes, those links are very interesting. I would suggest James to read it. I used to work in what was then Czechoslovakia in healthcare field and then in the USA also in the same field. My conclusion based on my experience: For rich people USA has the best healthcare in the world. For average wealthy people or less, not so.

joe32F, why? I think it will be entertainment and he is paid to read it. At least I hope.

Hmmmmm, labeling people isn't something we do much of in Texas. Among those I know we pretty much assume most folks want the same end result; and we are just at odds on how to best get there.

Not sure about the Texas air...

I was born and spent most of my life in Texas and am a very liberal person. By liberal I mean I really don't care what anyone else does as long as they are adults and it is consensual and it doesn't restrict me from doing what I want and I don't think we need all the laws out there telling us what can't do. But then my idea of a perfect Texas place to live is Austin, one of the most liberal places in the whole country.

Mark, people who talk like you tend to be labled, by those who do such things, as Libertarians. Followed by worse. I'm actually from New York. Go figure....

And Austin lost a lot when all the economic refugees invaded.

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(from California)

James, I like Texas and its people. They are very friendly. At least where I was: In San Antonio and Houston and its surroundings. True, they tend to be more conservative than in Seattle and around here. I hope you recognized my joke about Texas air. I don't label people. Nobody is clear liberal or clear conservative but usually mix of both and then some.

Thanks for the links, Agnes. I am guilty of using the term "socialized medicine" in the 70s/80s at least, even though saying so obscured the different systems many with private sectors. I hear you about already having a single payer system, but switching to a German-type system would require less heavy lifting. Note that the German system goes back to Bismarck and the 1870s.

About the German system: under that system where the premiums are set by salary, I would actually pay more, but it would cover everything, no deductibles, no copays, no co-insurance, no pre-approvals, no out of networks, no drug costs. Sounds like heaven. Currently dealing with PT for my son in which he was pre-approved for 6 PT visits in 4 weeks, but was only able to schedule 2 in the 4 weeks, and needed 1 more which happened the day after the 4 weeks expired. So dealing with the HEADACHE of that, it was 6 weeks ago and still it's not resolved! And it’s not even an issue of paying or not paying since the annual deductible hasn’t been paid, it’s a matter of paying the in network price of $70 vs the out of network $170 price,

Just watched a RS show with it's concluding remark: "Build bridges, not walls".

https://blog.ricksteves.com/blog/europe-walls/

FEBRUARY 20, 2019 BY RICK STEVES

Europe Tried Walls. Now It Likes Bridges.

Ilia, never any offence taken. I'm an Aggie, and the first thing an Aggie learns is how to laugh at himself. http://www.top10best.org/2014/10/best-aggie-jokes.html

First we need to dig moats, then we can build bridges where we want them.

James: Since no country wants to emulate the US Heath care delivery system, it’s hard to argue that its pasture is very green.

And of course Texas is changing demographically and moving closer and closer to the center politically. Just look at last November's election in terms of the US senate and house races.

Someday I want to be in Switzerland when they have a national referendum on some issue of importance. Would love that European political model to be used in US (realizing we do for many states, but there is no Swiss style of national referenda in the US. I'm sure our political elites would just love it if we did).

German health care. I was 31 when I moved to Frankfurt. Married the German guy 3 weeks before giving birth. Was immediately covered by his health ins. This is public ins. which I still have, but switched companies which one can do at any time, no questions asked.
Have had a C-section in the US and one in Germany. Pretty comparable, except here it didn't cost me anything.

Am self-employed, so pay all of my own premium. If I had a job, my employer would pay half. No deductibles, no co-pays except for the 20€ I had to pay for 10 sessions of physical therapy. The past 2 years have had 2 MRI's, an OP on my shoulder, an OP on leg veins, an hour ambulance ride in Spain, multiple X-rays over the last 6 months for my broken wrist as well as treatment and therapy for this wrist including an MRI. None of this has cost me anything. What do I pay per month? 190€. It was 270€ but dropped because my income has dropped. When my kids were at home, they were covered under the same policy with no extra charges.

I find the health care here to be outstanding. I choose my Dr.s, don't have to wait extra long on appointments, MRI's or Operations. My prescriptions cost me 5€. When I was pregnant, they were free.

I can use my ins. card anywhere in the EU to get treatment. Wish the US had something comparable. They don't have to have separate organizations like VA or Medicare cause it is all together.

That NYT article was interesting but the comparisons were not done very well.

Ms Jo: it does sound like heaven.

Correction to above: I would pay more for health insurance in Germany than the US but less overall. Reasons: out of pocket costs drop to near zero (last year it was $7000) and no Medicare payroll tax to pay, and no federal income tax to support veterans’ health.

And OMG! The time that would be saved not having to dicker with insurance companies and appealing EOBs.

Most things in life have three sides: Quantity, Quality and Cost. Like
a triangle. If you change the dimensions on one if the three sides
something has to change on the other one or two.

The US health systems fails on all three dimensions: quantity (too many procedures, including those of low-value to the patient driven by the fee-for-service model that incentivizes it), quality (the evidence base shows major gaps in quality outcome measures), and cost per capita is out of reach now for even middle class and outpacing inflation every year. Every single input into the system costs more than anywhere else but doesn't deliver the value one would expect (it doesn't even cover everyone to boot). Both political sides and the medical community know it. It's not a secret. The problem is trying to make the system more patient-centered (right now a patient's values are treated like an afterthought - take end of life care as an example), bringing it into the 21st century in terms of IT, delivering care to people who are too poor, sick, and who have multiple chronic illnesses, and slowing down the cost (too much waste in the system that doesn't help the patient). You really can't have a sector as big as this one outpacing inflation year after year unless you're prepared to pare back all other spending that's being crowded out. Intuitively, some people are smart enough to know that more (or more expensive) care isn't "better" care and that you're not necessarily sacrificing quality when you go to a Central European country to get your teeth implants done at a fraction the cost. Our system needs a serious disruption, and it's trying slowly to move to a value-based system (and away from a procedure-based one). Unfortunately, it's super fragmented and too many parties benefit from the status quo and they are busy buying their Congressman/woman. The opacity of it makes it hard for regular Joes to figure out what's going on and how best to push for change.

Just watched a RS show with it's concluding remark: "Build bridges, not walls".

When Rick goes off the travel ranch, he sometimes makes errors in historical interpretation. In particular, the reason Europe abandoned walls had nothing to do with the need to expand cities. It had to do with the fact that cannons brought by hostile armies made walls ineffective. Gunpowder is the reason walls do not work.

When you face peasant armies, walls are very effective. In Hungary, they put up 700 KM of walls in 2 weeks, and these walls have been extremely effective, because the economic migrants coming from the south do not have cannons. The USA erected a long wall between Syria and Turkey, and this was effective as well. Israel erected walls and these too have been effective. Walls work when gunpowder and cannons are not available.

"It had to do with the fact that cannons brought by hostile armies made walls ineffective"

Paul, yes, indeed. If you go to Malta (perhaps you have?), there are many interesting examples in a small island of how fortifications changed over time to reflect enemy firepower and which are still available to visit today - including from the 16th to 20 th centuries, city wallls, bastions, the Victoria lines, ack-ack emplacements, etc. There is an excellent little guide book called, something like, "Fortifications of Malta - Great Siege to 2nd World War" which covers the different approaches over the centuries and what can still be seen. Well worth reading, even if not going to Malta.

I also tend to agree with Carlos and ianandjulie and the echo chamber comment.

I love Tom's comment about "No countries trying to emulate the US health care system" which is really an insurance system with little to do with actual health care.

I pay attention to the world and I do make choices of where I spend my vacation money - no to the Maldives, Jamaica, and Turkey - my choices . I also still drive by exxon gas stations.

Paul needs to look at what the walls were like in most large cities in Europe before they were torn down. They were not a wall of stone like you see in Rothenburg or Büdingen and other little towns. They were more like 2 walls filled in with dirt and gravel, wide enough on top to drive on or spend your Sunday promenading and a moat surrounding them. Cannonballs just got stuck in them, they did not bring them crashing down.

Paul can talk for himself, but I think you have misunderstood his comment. He wasn't saying that cannonball reduced the walls, but that the development of new weapons made creating or maintaining them as defensive structures pointless, not least when guns could fire over the wall. That's why they instead became an only decorative promenade you mention, or in more prosperous and expanding towns were just torn down.

What is the record for the number of responses to one question? Approaching record level?????

I'll jump back in maybe just to increase the number of responses.

Like so many posts like this it has totally teetered and wobbled off the topic of the OP which was about political posts being allowed - yea or nay - his opinion being nay. It has now degenerated into political posts about walls/moats/bridges - defensive or otherwise - and health care (where did that come from?). So now, instead of being one's reasoning as to why or why not some, or all, political posts should be allowed, it has become full of the specific political posts the OP was opining against. It's a never ending battle and I'm glad it's the webmaster and not me that has to engage in it.

Yes, exactly, there was the gunpowder revolution, along with the scientific revolution and the commercial revolution. Gunpowder played its decisive role in bringing an end to warfare in the Middle Ages, (armoured knights, etc). Gunpowder was employed to batter down walls, the Mongols used gunpowder with murderous effect.

There is a place where you can see cannon balls getting stuck in the walls.

Go to Wiener Neustadt. I took a day trip there in 2014 from Vienna, in the Zentrum there is part of the city wall showing two cannon balls stuck. The title you see also indicates the date, 1683, the year of the siege of Vienna.

@ Nick...Your point is well taken in reference to the Great Siege of Malta in the 1500s, the golden age of Spain and that of the Turks. Thanks for the tip. I usually don't think of Malta, (I know, I should), when it comes to warfare in early modern Europe.

@Fred - Charles VII of France used cannon to great effect during the waning years of the 100 years war (mid-15th century). He created one of the first standing armies in Western Europe since antiquity, giving the English a good thrashing at Rouen and Castillon, among others.

I'm amazed this has gone on as long as it has. Maybe Andrew is on vacation...

Yes,David, I was just wondering why we haven't heard from HQ.

Can we leave politics out of it?

It would seem not.

David & Norma, it is indeed surprising how many posts this topic attracted. What's the answer to the question: Can we leave politics out of it? I read all of the posts and the answer seems to be: No, we cannot. I did not approach it scientifically, yet, e.g. to count the number of yes we can and no we cannot. It looks like those who said yes we can are in minority. So far I found no post deserving webmaster attention - very civil and polite debate. I am going to wait a little bit and if the topic stays I intend to reveal the score - yes we can : no we can't

Fred - it's not my job to be the local tourist board, but Cartagena has an interesting "collection" of defensive/military sights. Starting with some small remnants of the Carthaginian Wall, their civilisation's only real remain left in Europe, then the more extensive remains left from Rome, plus a destroyed castle of the Moors and a slightly better condition one from after the reconquest. Then there are sea walls built after the Royal Navy trounced the French in the Battle of Cartagena (the Spanish were hiding by then, of course). And, more up to date, the air-raid shelter used during the Civil War attacks by Italy and Germany.

@ Nick...Thanks for the enlightening historical information, provides me with even more incentive to see Spain and the Carthaginian historical remnants, ...very much overlooked, I would assume? When I went to the Louvre for the first time in the summer of 1989, not only to see the Mona Lisa, but I was most pleasantly surprised to find a statue of Hannibal displayed...fantastic.

@ Carlos...Good to know...thanks...at Rouen and Castillon (admittedly. not familiar with those events), yes, the reversal of Crecy and Agincourt. Victor Hugo in "Les Miserables" when narrating Waterloo juxtaposes Crecy, Agincourt, Poitiers.

The responses have been reviewed and allow to stand -- so far. The webmaster is on the job. Earlier today the US health care rant was quickly pulled. An a couple of others have quietly disappeared.

@Nick, Cartagena is also where another historical drama took place. The Bank of Spain's gold reserves were shipped from Cartagena's naval base to the Soviet Union in 1936. Is there any historical marker or mention of it there?

Re: "ack-ack emplacements" listed above....One can still see those in Berlin and Vienna (near the Esterhazy Park).

Doing that day trip to Wiener Neustadt, I saw the sign "Türkische Kugeln" in the Zentrum while exploring this part of the town and thought this sign at first was a joke, some sort of sarcasm; the date 1683 told me otherwise, in that they were relics from Turkish cannons unleashed on the walls of Wiener Neustadt....interesting place to see if you want to see parts of Habsburg military history.

Can we leave politics out of it?

Jumping back in after my earlier post ...

Actually maybe some politics is important in understanding and enriching our travels (and ourselves). Most of us on this forum likely want to know the history and context of the places we visit and gain some insight into the cultures. The politics of the time certainly had a lot to do with all that. Prior wars, oppression, renaissances ,economic policies,political parties, prime minsters,royals, Communism, fascism, and more all have a political factor that has obviously played a huge role . Rick's guides (especially) and others guides often make note of this in the various descriptions. It is done so in part so we will know what we are seeing and experiencing.

So in present time, we and our travelling are effected by the current political world . And our future travels .We don't travel in a vacuum.
For example there have been may posts regarding Brexit . That is just one issue. The right wing/populist political movements that have and is sweeping the US and a number of countries in Europe and beyond is and will impact our travels. Learning about and discussing these issues would give travelers a better understanding of the issues in the countries and communities we are visiting. What would it mean if the EU were to weaken or dissolve? (Practical , IE currency , or borders , or culturally) ? Why is this happening? Are there other ways to deal with grievances?
Or even how climate change is impacting vineyards in France or here in California, not to mention climate migration issues that may arise. What are various countries doing or not doing about it?

My point is NOT to broaden this post to discussion of these issues . My point is that some political discussion can enlighten and broaden our understanding of our travels and hopefully of each of us and our various cultures.

Those that do not want to read or participate in posts that refer to politics can easily move on and go to another post just as we all do for posts that we have no interest in or anything to add.

Anyways, a lively discussion.

The responses have been reviewed and allow to stand -- so far. The
webmaster is on the job. Earlier today the US health care rant was
quickly pulled. An a couple of others have quietly disappeared.

Frank, sometime after I saw moderator input on another thread, I pulled my responses to the healthcare rant. Sometimes i allow myself to be dragged into nonsense and i go back and self censor. Which would explain why half of the rant remains. they drank the coolaid, so no sense in arguing...

So, while my memory isnt perfect It doesnt look like anything has been pulled.

We have established that walls dont hold up to cannons. Have we considered the impact of cannons on bridges? Is the angle of trajectory such that bridges are more prone to remain standing? What about temporary or portable bridges like those used by the military? Do they have a place in modern Tourism?? And lets say you were on one of those bridges when hit, would you want to be going towards German healthcare or away from healthcare in the UK? Or would it depend on your particular injury and if you were enlisthed or an officer. I would suspect as an officer you might prefer American healthcare, but as an enlisted man, possibly the Australian form of healthcare.

Can we leave politics out of it?

This may just be me, but I think there is a fundamental difference between discussing an issue in a civilized manner (e.g., the pros and cons of various healthcare systems) and insulting an opposing party and/or its politicians.

I’m pretty sure that I know the post to which the OP was referring. The post simply threw in an insulting reference to a politician which had absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

I’d love to see more discussion of issues. I agree that calling the opposing party an insulting name does nothing to further the discussion,

I wish there was an off-topic board to discuss issues.

Laura, I love discussing politics with well mannered and tolerant individuals. But even I think for a travel forum there are limits. To discuss the value of making politics part of your travel interests and to point out observations is all excellent in my book. Problem is too often that just sets of mindless biases and the blind and I'll informed generalizations and attacks begin. I have a tendency to allow myself to get drawn into it at times, and I end up doing some self deleting afterwards, so I'm guilty too. There is so much room for good arguments I regret we aren't better st it. But this one has been very, very good as such things go.

I promised if the topic stays I would reveal the score. Here it is: can we leave politics out of it? 5 votes say yes, no we cannot - 32 votes, 7 votes were ambiguous. 44 people participated. My method: I read every post which way it was leaning. If I could not clearly decide it went among ambiguous. There was 1 to 15 posts per contributor. I went strictly 1 (wo)man 1 vote. All votes were equal. I did not use anything even remotely resembling electoral college. Nobody was helping me to arrive to the results (not even Russians).
Conclusion of these democratic elections: No, we cannot leave politics out of it.

"...the impact of cannons on bridges?" At Lodi and Arcola (the famous painting) the Austrians were firing their cannons at the French led by a certain General Bonaparte, who would by the end of the year compel the Austrians to recognise that they had lost against les français. At Remagen the Germans resorted to any sort of ordinance, tanks, cannons, planes to destroy the bridge seized intact by the Americans and before their reserves could widen the bridgehead.

I for one have learnt my lesson (maybe) and will try to keep certain opinions to myself going forward. Due to the serious nature of this topic, I will attempt to introduce a touch of humour to lighten things up a bit. A colourful joke told to me by my great-nephew, who fancies himself as the schoolyard wag. His words, not mine, a bit too flowery for my tastes:

A clown emerges from a Wall Street office building, his face painted a Jaffa orange, his hair the straw yellow of a young Gouda. He waddles down the street in his red shoes, each one as large as the canoe Washington commanded to cross the Delaware on that fateful Christmas night. A matching flappity-wappity red tie hangs over his belly, a belly a blue whale would be proud of.

As the clown nears the first street corner, he is approached and taken captive by two giant cannibals lurking in the shadows. "What great fortune", they laugh aloud as they throw him in the back of their customised van, "enough food for two weeks or more." They take him home to their luxury apartment a few blocks away, which by incredible coincidence is owned by the clown. In fact, he owns the whole block, though the cannibals are unaware of it at the time. With the aid of a rudimentary crane, the cannibals lift then lower the clown into a large pot of boiling water, and season the pot with Himalayan rock salt, coarse pepper from a small concern in Brazil, shallots grown on the manicured fields of Flanders, and a sheath of freshly-made bouquet garni. A dash of Mrs Dash, for good measure. They had decided to make a laughing stock out of him.

"...the impact of cannons on bridges?" In the recent Yugoslavian civil war, a moment of terrible importance occurred when Serb gunners took down the Bridge at Mostar. This was done with cannons. They had been targeting it for some time. Fortunately, the bridge was able to be rebuilt from the original materials in the river.

@ Nick....Your reference of the Royal Navy and the Spanish hiding in that engagement brought to mind the Franco-Spanish disaster at Trafalgar which would set in motion British naval superiority for the next 100 years, that is until the Americans challenged them. Then instead of superiority they had to settle for parity.

If you know French, the historical disaster of Trafalgar is revealed in the French expression, "C'est Trafalgar !" meaning a total disaster, a total mess , screw-up, etc.

Personally, I enjoy a civil political discussion. Politics is about the rules that we create to run our societies. As we travel, we notice that other societies, with other rules, have different outcomes.

As to the role of politics, for me politics and history are utterly and inevitably linked. Take Hungary today. Many of us enjoy Budapest, Hungarian culture, and so forth. Understanding Hungary today and the politics of those who run the country is improved by understanding history. Hungary fell under Ottoman Turk hegemony in the 1500s. After the failed seige of Vienna in 1683, Budapest was freed by the armies under Prince Eugenie of Saxony (who gets my vote as the most consequential and important military leader that few are familiar with or have even heard of). Hungary was under Austrian domination until 1918, and then was dismembered. A short period of self-determination was followed by Russian hegemony for 40 years after 1945. Understanding this historical information makes it more clear why Hungarians resist unwanted intrusions into their country today.

Is that discussing politics? Or is it history?

Just few details: 1867 to 1918 Hungary was on equal footing with Austria - Austrian-Hungarian Empire. And I would not skip revolution (Russians called it contrarevolution) 1956.

And the historical political background of areas goes a long way to determine why some of Europes cities are the size they are, why their architecture is how it is, the churches are what they are, the food is what it is etc etc.

Right rob in cal. Very succinct.
And today's politics will be and is similarly relevant to those issues and others.

Paul-of-the-Frozen-North, there is a lot of room for argument as to weather the dual monarchy was a 50/50 arrangement, but that's cutting hairs relative to the rest. There is a lot to play in what is shaping the country today and you hit on a lot of it. WWI and II, some guilt I would suppose, a unique ethnicity and language, and a thousand other factors all play into it. It's why I say ask questions, try and learn; but on issues short of crimes against humanity, don't judge. But it's all so fascinating isn't it? And if you love Hungarians, you will probably love Ukranians for a lot of the same reasons.

I know you made a typo...it's Prince Eugene of Savoy, whose mother was French, but he offered his services to the Habsburgs, the dynastic rivals of the French Bourbons until the Diplomatic Revolution engineered by Kaunitz.

Keep in that Hungary was an equal partner since 1867, ..true, but, Franz Joseph was only King in Hungary, not Emperor. That's why "K-u-K." Still he got what he wanted by having German remain as the language of administration and of command.

I don't accept the view that Hungary was under Austrian domination in spite of the Compromise of 1867 (called in the original, Der Ausgleich von 1867). The events of the July Crisis in 1914 seen from Vienna proves Hungary was not under the thumb of Austria...ie, the role of Tisza.

You see Tisza's reply in the Army Military History Museum in Budapest not far from the Mathius Church written in Hungarian, German, and (surprisingly) English. I had expected to see third language to be French.

Thank you, Fred, for correcting me regarding Prince Eugene of Savoy. I will emphasize the importance of his service in the rolling-back of the Ottoman presence in Europe. I'm going to look for a biography of this "edle Ritter".

@ Paul...His statue is in both Vienna, in front of the Hofburg, and in Budapest. I saw them both.

Even though the reputation of "Prinz Eugen" is that of the "edel Ritter," and the most, by far the most successful commander the Habsburgs ever had as he never lost a battle, he isn't given any special consideration, exhibit, etc in the Army History Museum (HGM) in Vienna, where more or less as if he is historically ignored.

In contrast, special mention, exhibit, consideration, etc is reserved for the Archduke Charles (Karl) and Radetsky, ( a year older than Napoleon. ), the same Radetsky of J. Strauss, Sr's famous and popular march.

I checked out the HGM carefully thinking I had overlooked things displayed on Prince Eugene, somehow missed it, etc, No, it's simply not there.

Wow!!! Way too deep. If you are more into tactile history, still a few buildings in Budapest with WWII and '56 bullet holes, and I know a great Atomic Bomb Shelter near the Opera ....

We don't travel in a vacuum.
I don't believe in censorship. Politics impacts everyone.

"Politics impacts everyone." In regards to traveling, how true!

Having to get a visa for going to France in 1987 at the SF French Consulate was the result of a political decision.

Mandatory minimum exchange amounts in commie countries I went in the cold war days , Prague and East Berlin, was politics, ie, politically motivated.

I think it depends on the topic. Sometimes, just practical info is requested and no need to provide opinions (unless it really is something that is helpful). Like if someone says, I'm going to France, I don't think its necessary to launch into why one hates France. I also think certain topics lend themselves to a polite conversation into politics. My first trip to Europe included Budapest so I've followed the changes in political climate there with interest. There, too, I think its ok to talk about the movement towards nationalism and compare to what is happening in other countries including ours without dissolving into nastiness.

Laura you are probably 100% correct.
Discussing politics is fine, And on travel forums it CAN be necessary. But usually it is not needed. And insulting comments on any side is not needed.
A question about Brexit May very well need a political comment. A discussion about trains from London to Windsor does not need an insulting comment about the Iron Lady (this is a fictitious example).
I have ran across the latter type comments three separate times in the last few weeks, (give or take as I didn’t keep track of the weeks)
But I am. Sorry for creating this monster topic... as it directly defeats my whole point... sigh....

The only time I get aggravated by a political comment is if it expresses an opinion with which I totally disagree, knowing, of course, that I am being close minded. I live in a Canadian province where politics is a daily subject of discussion, in either of our two official languages. It is not verboten, it is accepted as our way of life and adds to the vivacity of our existence.

Wow!!! Way too deep. If you are more into tactile history, still a few buildings in Budapest with WWII and '56 bullet holes, and I know a great Atomic Bomb Shelter near the Opera ....

And if you travel, as I know you have James E, into Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia-Herzogovenia, there are more than a "few buildings" with bullet holes. In some areas in Rebublika Srbska, in Dubrovnik, in many areas, the war scars are pretty obvious. Why is Dubrovnik such a jewel? Because Serb armies targeted it in 1993, destroying many roofs. After that they rebuilt the city, and that meant re-roofing with new, pretty, red-clay tiles. The beauty of Dubrovnik is a direct result of the devastation of the war 27 years ago.

douglas,

"Sorry for creating this monster topic... as it directly defeats my whole point... sigh...."

Don't be sorry. I think you've provided a topic that members have enjoyed responding to. It's been a civil and somewhat spirited discussion.

@ Paul/Frozen North....That statue of Prince Eugene in Budapest I referred to above is located in front of the National Gallery on Castle Hill. I saw it.

That building during the Empire was the Habsburg Royal Palace on Castle Hill.

Douglas: I appreciate your topic. I am, as I indicated, interested in history and also in politics.

Here is a true statement: If our opinion is contradicted or challenged by another, we may choose to respond by being offended (IMHO, a bad response) or by considering a thoughtful response (IMHO, the better choice). Politics is in the most case a matter of opinion. And this is a direct result of differing values. One person might value openness of a society. Another might value traditional societies and their preservation of the old things. Neither person is "RIGHT" in an objective and absolute sense. Of course, if we are talking about murder, ethnic cleansing, warmongering, things are a little closer to the standard of objectively "RIGHT" or "WRONG". But usually we are not there.

So, let me suggest a change. Let us agree to NOT leave politics out of it. I don't believe that this is possible. Let us agree to leave "being offended about politics" out of our response. If you read something, you may choose (in the most case) to be offended or not. Choose rational thinking instead of being offended.

Adding to above: don’t take the bait. Assume other readers can figure out on their own when someone is deliberately being unreasonable or inflammatory. Just let the bait sit, people get it.

One person might value openness of a society. Another might value
traditional societies and their preservation of the old things.

And another person might not see the two as mutually exclusive.

Is the number of responses on this thread a record?

Probably. But just to be sure let's go to 200 and that I am positive will be a record.

Paul and Tom, really wise words.

I don't know about you, but that Millard Fillmore is really making me angry.

But he staved off the Civil War by signing the Compromise of 1850 which his predecessor had refused to do.

Will there be a "redacted" version of this thread forthcoming????? (giggle, giggle.....or, ooops, was that political?)

Emma, LOL :)
It is a really strange world...more so in the last couple of years!! (ooops...there I go again).

Granted, I'm new to the forum, so can't say I've noticed much of what brought about the original post here in the first place.

I'd hope we can reference politics in a mature, reasonable way though - it can be relevant to our travel experiences. For instance, locals or tourists from other countries asking us about the political situation in our own country and acknowledging that can be something we occasionally have to deal with, whether events happening at home or abroad can impact personal safety advice and suggestions, whether folks on the forum experience trouble clearing customs or returning home or getting visas abroad, etc. Those strike me as things that can be objectively discussed, without judgement. Of course, I can also understand there being wariness of the potential slippery slope from even mentioning such things in the first place.

I think it's a bit naive to think somehow politics can be totally avoided when traveling in Europe. It's been my experience that Europeans are far more curious, and concerned, about our politics and far more upfront about that than we are. And the few I've talked with about their own politics seem to be much more open in their opinions and less concerned about offending anyone than we are.

Some examples:

1. An Irish taxi driver in Dublin in 2009 expressed disdain for our former president and admiration for our new one at the time. Then asked us what we thought.
2. 2016 in England, just before the Brexit referendum, I was able to see booths set up for both sides and ask questions in the Canterbury market street.
   
3. On a different day in a different English location, a private tour guide and I talked about that and the upcoming US election almost as much as what he was showing me.
4. And after a guard at the National Gallery in London gave me directions, he asked me about our upcoming election.
   
5. Last summer, learning about the Scandinavian countries, how their governments and societies work, was a real eye-opener for me. US concepts about all that seem to be hot-button issues here, but it's just the way they live. We tend to see Scandinavia as highly homogeneous, but Oslo, a city of about 600,000 is about 1/3 non-native Norwegians. Those people come from all over the world.

I tend to be rather direct, so I really enjoy discussing issues with Europeans about my country and learning from them about theirs.

From Merriam-Webster:

Definition of politics

1a : the art or science of government
b : the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy
c : the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government

2 : political actions, practices, or policies

3a : political affairs or business
especially : competition between competing interest groups or individuals for power and leadership (as in a government)
b : political life especially as a principal activity or profession
c : political activities characterized by artful and often dishonest practices

4 : the political opinions or sympathies of a person

5a : the total complex of relations between people living in society
b : relations or conduct in a particular area of experience especially as seen or dealt with from a political point of view

I like some of these posts, the ones that I agree with, the rest are all nonsensical and not worth the effort to read. Among the more interesting points made, Konrad was a brilliant Hessian general who had two thumbs on his left hand, Moravia comprises of twenty nine percent Bohemians and once wanted Irene Adler as its queen, Bollocky Bill was a fearless sailor of renown during the great age of The Empire (he invented IPA), and Stavros is still upset about Hasan lopping off his great ancestor’s head four hundred years ago.

In support of the OP’s point, in the same way all roads used to lead to Rome, all political roads nowadays seem to lead to one man: that was the main issue raised, which we get drawn into too easily. I am guilty of treading on that particular road.

Oh, and Happy Easter to all, if it's still permissible to say so.

It is always permissible to be pleasant.