Any experience with Sleeper train

Why would the OBB Nighjet not be secure? The cabin wall is a wall. Maybe with a big axe you would be able to get through...

Sorry, i amended to ÖBB Nightjet (Sleeping Pod). I refer to the sliding/rolling wall. Please see the video clip link.

are those all trains you expect to use? I don't remember you going to all those places.

Which ones do you actually need to make a decision on?

In looking at Brigitte's posts and responses, I get the sense that she is very afraid of crime in Europe. I assume that coming from Singapore, where crime is basically non-existent, the idea of Europe sounds very scary. This is interesting as Europe is actually a very, very safe place. Crime, especially violent crime, is very rare. As a woman, I walk around alone at night in Vienna all the time and am never afraid. Would I do this in the US, where I come from, absolutely not. But, Brigitte, keep in mind that you should not be afraid. Things here are really very much ok.

The Night Riviera and the Great Western sleeper are the same thing. On both the UK sleepers there is room under the bottom bed for large cases, and also room in the Guards van.
Your original plan was to save money with the Sleepers, on the Caledonian Sleeper you are never going to achieve that, in a berth. The prices are, well, very high.
As you talk about the bag lockers I wonder if you mean in the seated coach of the Cal Sleeper. It doesn't have a good reputation as being somewhere to actually get sleep. So far I have neatly swerved that experience, most recently last Monday. Everything I have heard so far is to avoid the seats if you actually need to function next day. One day (probably next month) I will run out of excuses not to use the seating car.
The seats on the Night Riviera are excellent, I've had a good night's sleep on them several times, and that is dirt cheap. There is an hour at Taunton and almost an hour at Exeter when the train is timed to be stationary, which is helpful.

The OBB sleeping pods are only on a few routes currently.

I very much doubt that anyone can break into the Nightjet minicabins without waking up a lot of people nearby.

You asked about sleepers in general. Okay, I was on one in 1982 and I doubt that is relevant today. I wasnt on another until January of this year when I did a round trip on sleepers. Here is my train (the one up): https://1drv.ms/f/c/c9f4c533eb93d92e/EgvgU6CxNvlKu-23WlY4p7oBlHyUyZ6XllxuAkNtNxsQPQ?e=83ImRF and here is fairly nice youtube video of the entire trip (not my trip): https://youtu.be/m9DpriNJG38?si=xT6TBu3UHji7GZFl

It was an interesting experience. Luggage stored safely under the bed, tea was about 10 cents a cup, the bunk mates were three wonderful ladies. 2 of whom spoke some English. The room was clean. The mattres could have been a lot worse. The bedding was perfectly clean. The sleep was a little like trying to sleep in a 1970's style waterbed in an earthquake. I wasnt worried about theft, me and the three ladies could take on anyone. A little worried though about things falling on the train.

Would i use it again? Sure, maybe in the Fall. Was under $100 each way.

are those all trains you expect to use? I don't remember you going to
all those places. Which ones do you actually need to make a decision
on?

I said i ask for their experiences to be shared so that I might make a decision based on your experiences or recommendation.

I won't take OBB Nightjet Sleeper pod due to watching that link. How to store my luggage inside the sleeper pod? Seems that there is not much space for luggage to be kept. The sliding wall seems easy to break into. Please watch this clip.

This is interesting as Europe is actually a very, very safe place.
Crime, especially violent crime, is very rare.

I hope please don't focus on my hometown. I don't intend my hometown as a focus of attention. I prefer my travel plans to be a focus so that i can get clear idea.

Last time, upon my arrival in London, I waited to collect my luggage and was surprised to see that particular luggage wrapped tightly in plastic cling wrap. 1st time to see that.

Yes, London is generally safe which surprised me. I read that other travel book that say that London is a very safe place with low crime rate. I read RS travel book that Frankfurt may not be safe especially at night because of the presence of druggies. I'm very worried that there might be strikes and protests in London and other parts of Europe which may disrupt my travel plans. Stay vigilant is wiser because the tourist may not be familiar how to go to the police station overseas. Prevention is better than cure.

I read that Brussels Midi may not be safe because of muggings and stabbings. Very scary.

Brigitte07 - the likelihood that you will be involved in violent crime is basically 0%. I encourage you to stop reading crazy news stories and try to enjoy your trip or maybe decide that it is best for you just to stay at home.

My experience on a sleeper train was that we got zero sleep. It was uncomfortable, loud and the WC was at the end of the car.
Honestly, when you spend money to go to a new country, it is nice to stay awake on the trains to see the country side. A nice, budget hotel will give you a good nights sleep and cost less than the sleeper train.

As to crime in Frankfurt, we have already told you that you do not have to get off your train at the main station, you will never see the junkies there if you don't want to. Besides that, they don't bother anyone. They sure have never bothered me and I am an older woman. I walk through that area almost daily. All of the main train station areas in Europe look like this. Frankfurt is not the only one.

There is beautiful scenery all over Europe. Spending a ton of money to go to one more country to see one bridge? The Charles bridge is packed with tourists, so it will never look like that tour guide photo.

“ read that Brussels Midi may not be safe because of muggings and stabbings. Very scary.”

May I suggest you to find other sources of information as you seem to have a rather distorted view of safety in Europe. Brussels Midi station isn’t scary. Tens of thousands of passengers travel thru this station on a daily basis without getting mugged or stabbed.
I’m the first one to admit that the immediate area around the Brussels Midi train station isn’t the most attractive. However if you plan to stay in Brussels you can just as easily use Brussels central station which is close to the historical city center.

If you feel that it's to dangerous to travel to Europe, feel free to go somewhere else. But I think your fears are not grounded in reality. I've changed trains in Brussels Midi, several people I know have changed trains in Brussels Midi, and none has mentioned any problems.

And there are luggage lockers if you're travelling in one of ÖBB's mini cabins, see photos here: https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/nightjet-new-generation.htm But if that is not your cup of tea, you can also travel in a normal compartment.

If you feel that it's to dangerous to travel to Europe, feel free to
go somewhere else.

Better yet, we understand that each person is different and try and work with that. I suspect with some help the OP might get past a lot of it. If you google "Tourist Murdered in Europe", News, Past Month; you get a few heat strokes and a couple of animal attacks.

I've lived and travelled in Europe for over 50 years and have never been mugged, stabbed or even pickpocketed. As for the sleeper trains - I can't sleep on them, many people can't, so I'd suggest that's something you look into before you start worrying about safety.

At least in the UK there has to be 14 days notice of a strike, and there is always a work round of any transit strike.
Likewise notice has to be given of any significant protests.
It is very unlikely you will get caught up in that kind of thing. Just be street wise.

News and Social media often blow things out of all proportion.

On another thread, as the OP seems to be from the far east, and unfamiliar with sleeper trains, I suggested trying the reportedly very good Thai sleeper trains which use modern train cars, albeit on a different railway gauge. There used to be sleepers from the Singapore border to Kuala Lumpur, but the Man in Seat 61 suggests they no longer exist.
Another thought is to fly to Hong Kong and take the through sleeper to Shanghai or Beijing as a trial. But don't just fly in and leave straight away- do some sightseeing first! The only problem is that those trains are arguably better than most European ones.
Having lived in HK, I see it firmly as the safest place on earth I have ever been to.

Western Europe sleepers and couchettes are single sex. I've not done Eastern Europe (unlike Mr E) where they are apparently co-ed. I totally trust him on that score. However I have done co-ed on RZD (Russian Railways). It really wasn't at all a problem - but may have been helped by my cabin mates having copious amounts of vodka with them!!

I just don't agree with the perceived issues of the OBB sleeping pods. But maybe I have read more on them and seen more videos. I wouldn't hesitate to use them if the circumstances to do so were there.

I wouldn't worry about safety in the pod and each comes with a storage locker so luggage security is okay if you travel a bit light. But as the video suggests, they are very much like coffins and that doesn't work for me.

As for the co-ed, it's not like anyone puts their pj's on. Especially on the route that train took.

I imagine the newer trains have solved getting into the upper bunks and the protocol for seating prior to lights-out?

From these links, I feel that OBB Nightjet sleeper pod seems awful because it is not secure. It seems that the cabin sliding wall can be broken into easily, no?

I'm also somewhat fascinated by it when I imagine how much effort it all takes.
So I sneak onto the night train with an axe, wait until everyone is asleep, break through the wall into a compartment next to me, and steal everything. Now I just have to sedate the person I'm stealing from so they don't scream, because after all, I have to remain unrecognized on the train until the next stop. To make the whole effort worthwhile, I have to do it in several compartments, and I have to sedate the conductors too, because they'll hear the noise at some point.

So, I've decided for myself that the effort isn't worth it and that I consider the whole thing to be complete nonsense and sensationalism. I don't click on the videos because you shouldn't suport such videos with a cent, which they get when as many people as possible click on them.

Mignon, and you have that opinion because you didn't watch the video. The video was pretty positive on all counts. End with "nice experience".

OP - no comment on ÖBB, I've not done NightJet. I did the Caledonian Sleeper back in March 2022. I had a Classic Solo Room - ended up in Coach C, 09L. Back then I paid £100. I liked it well enough. The room would have been very snug for two people, as a solo traveler there was just enough room and I used the top bunk to store my bags. I got on the train settled in, went right to sleep and the swaying of the cars was relaxing - just like camping in my hammock. Got up, got myself together just pulling into Euston and had breakfast in the station.

With a 23:40 departure, I had little interest checking out of my hotel and finding a place to store luggage, so, I kept the room and checked-out about 22:45 before going to the station.

Hopefully it was clear, that my comment was 100% sarcasm :-)

Caledonian Sleeper is very safe. Took it two years ago. You bring your luggage into the room with you and put it under the bunk bed. I only ever travel with a carryon and a small daypack so I rarely have issues with luggage though.

I should note, though, that while it was very safe and clean, I didn’t sleep much at all due to the train swaying and the brakes screeching on the tracks.

My experience on a sleeper train was that we got zero sleep. It was
uncomfortable, loud and the WC was at the end of the car. Honestly,
when you spend money to go to a new country, it is nice to stay awake
on the trains to see the country side. A nice, budget hotel will give
you a good nights sleep and cost less than the sleeper train.

May i know which sleeper train did you sleep? There are few/several different European sleeper trains.

As to crime in Frankfurt, we have already told you that you do not
have to get off your train at the main station, you will never see the
junkies there if you don't want to.

Thanks for your tips. I am merely sharing what i read from RS book about the druggies in Frankfurt. He advises us to stay vigilant against the druggies if we want to go out at night to enjoy sightseeing. He advises that it is not safe to go out at night but is relatively safe in the day to visit Frankfurt.

Fellow traveller friends, i just want to say that i read some posts here about muggings and stabbings, it alerts us to be more vigilant in those certain areas. That's what i meant all along.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the sleeper trains. Please do continue to share your experiences with sleeper trains. Thanks so much.

“I am merely sharing what i read from RS book about the druggies in Frankfurt. He advises us to stay vigilant against the druggies if we want to go out at night to enjoy sightseeing. He advises that it is not safe to go out at night but is relatively safe in the day to visit Frankfurt.”

I don’t have the RS book about Germany, but I have been in Frankfurt. Based on that I can’t believe that RS would tell people that it’s not safe to go out at night in Frankfurt. Can someone who has the guidebook confirm that he really says this about Frankfurt?

Since Rick stays at Hotel Concord, which is right next to the RLD, it is no wonder he writes that about night time here. Why anyone would stay at this hotel, is beyond me, when there are 100 nicer neighborhoods in Frankfurt to stay in. Even if you really want a hotel near the main station, the Concord would not be anywhere near my top choice. There are some on the sides of the HBF that are decent, like Hamburger Hof. Flemings Express, or Hotel Bristol.

I live here, and have zero qualms about walking anywhere around the train station. The whole city of Frankfurt is not the train station, nor the 2 blocks that surround it.

Rick pops in here once every 10 years if that, and hasn't even had an editor here since 2018, except for one that spent half a day here last year. I send them information every year to up date the book, like museums, hotels, or restaurants opening and closing, and train prices.

I thought druggie was UK slang for a pharmacy?

Mignon, so noted.

Mr E, this thread is starting to go off beam. But, no, druggie isn't slang for a pharmacy in the UK.

It means well, the same as in Germany- someone who is on and probably addicted to drugs.

Please stick with this topic - sleeper trains. I'm sure that it can benefit every traveller who is thinking to use sleeper train during night.

Based on that I can’t believe that RS would tell people that it’s not
safe to go out at night in Frankfurt. Can someone who has the
guidebook confirm that he really says this about Frankfurt?

RS book says that "this walk now goes into a neighbourhood of drug users and sex workers. If you use common sense, it is not dangerous, but it can be unnerving and creepy at any time of the day."

Ms. Jo, I really appreciate your tip on druggies. I take note of your advice. Thanks so much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIsyAo-X9c0. Cheap vs Luxury | Travelling London to Edinburgh on Lumo vs Caledonian Sleeper
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9Mt3nJBZ80 Overnight On Luxury British Sleeper Train
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQXyN-jXxcE. Luxury Overnight Sleeper Train From Scotland to England - The Caledonian. (Double bed)
first time to see double bed in sleeper train. Usually, there are double decker bunk in sleeper train.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj2hp35ht18. Better than Caledonian Sleeper?? | NIGHT RIVIERA SLEEPER from London to Penzance

But as the video suggests, they are very much like coffins and that
doesn't work for me.

Yes, i agree. I do not want to sleep like that. Too small for me to move around.

From The Man in Seat 61 website, it says that Caledonian Double rooms (above left) feature a double bed and en suite toilet & shower. Club rooms (above right) have 2 beds and also feature a private toilet & shower. How nice! Maybe i might try it in near future. I'm worried about its price.

Brigitte07 - check the guidebook update for Frankfurt - https://www.ricksteves.com/europe/germany/guidebook-updates

We no longer recommend taking the alternative route along our self-guided walk (to stops 3 and 4); the neighborhood has become too dangerous to be worth it.

Stop #3 is labelled "Junkies" and #4 "Brothels"
Also, this video may be a bit exaggerated, it's from a Murdock tabloid.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/28610752/england-fans-zombieland-frankfurt-drug-addicts-euros/

Maybe I'm wrong, but since I'm extremely suspicious, this all screams video click bate to me. Sorry if I'm wrong.

Western Europe sleepers and couchettes are single sex. I've not done
Eastern Europe (unlike Mr E) where they are apparently co-ed. I
totally trust him on that score. However I have done co-ed on RZD
(Russian Railways). It really wasn't at all a problem - but may have
been helped by my cabin mates having copious amounts of vodka with
them!!

My trip was in a much more civilized country. We drank tea. However, the first page of the NightJet website says this:

Note on sleeper car bookings
From now on, mixed compartments for all genders as well as ladies-only compartments can be booked in the sleeping car and couchette car on ÖBB Nightjets and some EuroNights.

Obviously you would have to have mixed compartments if you were traveling with a family of four and didnt want it to be split up. Of course traveling with strangers is somewhat different. I just looked at the Vienna to Paris NightJet. The options are Ladies Only Compartments or Undefined, so I assume mixed. No men only compartments shown.

Sometime back and I cannot find the thread, I made a sarcastic remark about taking a nightjet to Paris. I was told that was a wise move. So, I looked it up and it was expensive. I just checked again for the prices Vienna to Paris on the NightJet (wich does not run every day of the week) in mid-October and:

• Singles are 545 to 665 euro a bunk (the cost of my flight from Budapest to the states in September)
• Doubles are 260 to 330 euro a bunk
• The 3 person are 205 to 265 euro a bunk

So, maybe to use time more wisely (maybe), but certainly not to save on cost vs a day train and a hotel.

Brigitte07, OBB for the most part are not the pods. You will have to go to their website and see what is available on each route. The cabins appear to be very nice and some with ensuite bathrooms. The doors, I suspect, are a bit thin but in checking past news I cant find anything about someone having problems on a sleeper. For 600 euro maybe they attract a different sort of clientele?

One of the problems with OBB is their extremely dynamic pricing. To an extent it has been so for a long time, but became far more extreme when the new train cars were introduced.
When it was DB City Night Line (yes I go back that far, I can even remember the CNL cars when new, and the excitement they generated) there was a far more straightforward and affordable pricing policy. But maybe that is why DB deemed CNL to be un-commercial.
Yet for me, if there is one reason why Istanbul continues to elude me, it isn't the price of OBB (I can work round that) it is the way out of kilter price of the Budapest to Bucharest sleeper, given local prices and the equipment used.
In some ways that was acceptable when the Istanbul and former Thessaloniki connections were achievable in Bucharest. Now they have been severed you pay over the odds, then still need a Bucharest hotel for a 23 hour layover.
The Budapest to Paris prices are on a par with the former Paris to Spain and Paris to Italy hotel trains (both of which enterprises failed).
They are also pretty much on a par with Amtrak and Via Rail.
The OP hasn't mentioned non OBB/EN services-the Italian domestic routes to Sicily via the train ferry, the European Sleeper Prague to Brussels via Berlin and Amsterdam, also Scandinavian domestic routes. I am a huge fan of the very affordable Norwegian domestic sleepers. On the Bergen route the new lie flat seats seem to be a great option.
On Amtrak I'm so pleased that I did the Coast Starlight when I did. The extra Californian treats you used to get elevated the journey experience significantly. Now they are gone I would struggle now to justify the price.
It's the same for the Empire Builder- I would so love to do that, but the price is ridiculous. Yet the train is constantly near full. For me the answer seems to be to travel in a seat with a break of journey overnight in Montana (at Malta or Glasgow).

isn31c For the OBB Vienna to Budapest sleeper, I checked random dates from not until they quit posting prices in November; always the same. I don’t see anything dynamic going on, but maybe I need a longer timeframe to see it.

Sleepers used to be promoted as a way to save money and save productive time. This one route at least saves no money and cost nearly as much as a discount airline ticket and a night at the Four Seasons Hotel in Budapest. Interesting that people who would never dream of staying in a Hostel would stay in one if its called a NightJet. As far as saving productive time, that’s sort of debatable as well. I wont really enjoy the evening before or the time before I get checked into a hotel the next day. But admittedly that’s just me.

On the trip to Istanbul. Why? I did check the price to Bucharest and its half the cost of the Paris trip. The flights are cheap and there isnt much to see between Budapest and Bucharest, I would fly. I once drove from Sofia to Istanbul. Okay, I don’t drive on holiday. Against my religion. So, to clarify, I hired someone to drive from Sofia to Istanbul. Cost a little bit more than the sleeper to Paris.

Just as info: in autumn a new sleeper bus service will start its service - first connections to / from Zurich. More:
https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/transportation/new-luxury-sleeper-bus-service-twiliner-launches-with-a-delay

Maybe I'm wrong, but since I'm extremely suspicious, this all screams
video click bate to me. Sorry if I'm wrong.

It probably is. The Sun is not a reputable source of news in my opinion.

And yes, Nightjet has raised their prices a bit. But they are not the only night trains in Europe. In Finland you can travel from south to north in a sleeping compartment with private bathroom for €144, good luck finding a hotel and a flight for less.

And my experiences with night trains is that I usually sleep very well and feel rested the next day. It's a very efficient way to travel, going to bed in one city and waking up in another.

And my experiences with night trains is that I usually sleep very well and feel rested the next day. It's a very efficient way to travel, going to bed in one city and waking up in another.

Yes, I feel the same way. Until now, I used one to Hamburg (when the DB still had night trains). Later, I used the ÖBB night trains to Rome and Venice.

And for this theoretical journey from Budapest to Paris the cost can essentially be halved by using the Kalman Imre EN to either Stuttgart (used to be Munich) or it's section to Zurich, then day train to Paris.
For me, starting in the UK, I would probably want to avoid crossing Paris. Instead I would likely use the ferry to either Ijmuiden (for Amsterdam) or the Hook of Holland (for Rotterdam) and day train to Stuttgart.
The North sea ferries may not be Baltic sea style luxury, but are very nice indeed with civilised crossing times. Especially to the Hook they run in almost all weather. Adds a sense of occasion to the journey. If the weather is so bad as to disrupt the ferry chances are it will also be affecting trains and flights.

One of the problems with the Caledonian Sleeper in the UK is the inconsistent service. The en suites often have plumbing problems, and the build quality of the train cars was poor, leading sometimes to noise from loose fittings. Like many people I don't question that it is a great, even exceptional experience to go to bed in London and wake up to Highland scenery or vv. The question is, whether it is worth the price for a double bed, and an en suite. A question that totally splits opinion. The cabin size and en suite of course means fewer cabins per car, so a higher price has to be charged.
They have positioned themselves for the tourist and expense account market.

The Mark 3's on the Night Riviera to Cornwall are a totally different product. They were very well built, and have well and truly proved themselves as a sound product over the years. They have been very well modernised for the 21st century. The pricing structure is still very much mass market. Compared to a day train and hotel night, you very likely still save money and also use time efficiently.

As I said, I liked the Caledonian Sleeper well enough. I have no complaints but I don't know that I'd call the experience exceptional. I suppose I'm the oddball, but a large part of my travel enjoyment is the journey itself. I want to see and enjoy the journey, watch the change of landscape & landmarks and have that sense of place. If I were traveling from London to the Highlands I'd want to see the journey. But in the dark of night I walked into a station, boarded a train and eventually went to bed. At the other end in got up, cleaned up and walked out of Euston. At the time my ticket cost £100 and the journey was 7:20 and I feel like I got more out of LNER up the East Coast Mainline at £31 and 4:20. I checked-out out of one hotel at the appointed to and arrived at my new hotel at check-in.

Stuart - are you talking about not liking the old trains on the Caledonian Sleeper or the new ones?

Last month, I took the sleeper train from Rovaniemi to Helsinki in Finland. I had always wanted to try a sleeper train and this one got fairly good reviews.

I splurged for a private cabin with en suite toilet and shower. It was less expensive than a night in a hotel in either Rovaniemi and Helsinki. With this train, you get the entire cabin (for 2). No sharing unless you bring someone.

I'm glad I experienced it but won't do it again.

I got little sleep because the train kept moving, shaking and stopping. The bed was small, the sheets were rough, and the pillow was the size of a marshmallow.

The walls were super thin and I could hear conversation in the next cabin.

The ensuite bathroom made an airplane toilet look like a palace. Especially size wise. When I wanted to use the shower, I had to literally swing a part of the wall out to reach the shower head. Unfortunately, all I could get was cold water in ten second increments. The provided soap bar was smaller than a quarter.

As I said, I'm glad I experienced it but I probably won't take another one.

I've read mixed reviews of the Caledonian Sleeper in regards to sleep and comfort.

isn31c

And for this theoretical journey from Budapest to Paris the cost can
essentially be halved by using the Kalman Imre EN to either Stuttgart
(used to be Munich) or it's section to Zurich, then day train to
Paris.

I keep reading, one just above, that only NightJet runs sleeper trains in Europe. The one you mention is a EuroNight Sleeper which the NightJet website says is a different animal. From my way too much research it’s an OBB engine to Salzburg then they change it to a DB engine. The carriages are a mix of DB and Mav-Start carriages. My single sleeper would be in a MAV-Start carriage https://www.vagonweb.cz/fotogalerie/foto/202201/IMG_5786.jpg (charming, but the OBB Stuff is nicer). They will be changing engines and dropping carriages at Salzburg. Based on a similar experience with my night train in Chop in January, I am betting that as late as I will be able to sleep. So I will be sitting in a little room for a few hours.

I was going to put the details here, but it gets complicated. Crazy complicated. Booking trains is never as easy as getting a flight. Anyway, before it’s all said and done what you recommend will be one change of trains, something less than 19 hours of travel door to door, half of that time I would otherwise be sightseeing, and it will cost about 400 euro. That compares to 575 euro and close to 20 hours door to door on the NightJet by way of Vienna but with a little less lost sightseeing time.

So, I ask myself, why wouldn’t I just fly? A 3-star hotel in Budapest, on Andrassy ut, would cost 60 euro and the flight with a checked bag and a seat reservation would be about 115 euro, so 175 euro total. Flight time is 2.5 hours (close to 5.5 hours door to door) costing me about 2 hours of sightseeing time, and I would be at my hotel in Paris to drop off my bags by 10:30. The only thing I miss is the romance of the rails and several hour trying to figure the best deal with the best train company over the best route with the best sleeping accommodations.

Well, after reading this our plans to take a sleeper train are getting a pass due to an iffy sleeping situation. A bad night's sleep largely ruins the next day, and the risk isn't worth it for us. Thank your for all of your perspectives.

Nigel,
I'm trying very hard indeed to be even handed in this. At the end of the day the current Caledonian Sleeper regularly sells out.
But I find it sad, very sad, that when I need to be in London early my modal choice now is National Express. I can get that for £15 or £17.50 with assigned seat and know I will get a pretty decent sleep as it is basically non-stop. I could never ever justify spending over £400 on a double bed and en suite. Or close to £200 in a more basic cabin, given the extremely inconsistent experiences.
And the basic cabins don't even give lounge access.

Yes I think the old Mark 3 cars were and are incomparably better. Really well built and I've never had a bad journey on them or anything go significantly wrong.

Having said that I can go through Taunton by train without a thought by day. Every time I go through by night I remember the tragedy which led to the Mark 3 cars being built so well.

I used to commute from London to Bolton 2 or 3 times a week, and had to be there for a 9.30 ish meeting.
I couldn't go up the previous night due to 9pm night shift handover. I wasn't allowed to drive up due to unpredictable travel times on the motorway, so had to go by train.
Made worse as I had to be back the following night for night shift handover, so was under huge time pressure.
But my Chief Accountant passionately hated paying peak time fares from Euston. So for a long time I went up by the old Cal sleeper to Glasgow then turned straight back south for a day train to Bolton. It was way cheaper, and I enjoyed it.
But he had to justify the Glasgow diversion to the Auditors.
I was actually a sleeper season ticket holder. That would all be inconceivable with current prices.

BigMikeWestByGodVirginia, I just tired to be real about it and cut through some of the romance notions. Its a great experience. If you havent tried it, do it. It will be good stuff to talk about for years; and you might even enjoy it, many do. A fair possibility I will be on one late this Fall. When they work, which I suspect isnt terribly often on a purley functional basis of time and money, they work well.

I just took the Munich to Bologna night train last week. Paid a bundle for a private cabin with WC and shower. I had no security concerns and enjoyed my comfortable private space and especially the nice warm shower at 4:30 am. The half bottle of bubbly for the departure was nice. Breakfast was nice too, though I had to take it to go at 5:30 am. The duvet and multiple pillows were comfy. The mattress was like a concrete block. I got no more sleep than I did a decade earlier in an old couchette car with my family, on the un-air-conditioned, very jerky, start-and-stop Venice to Paris route. Sigh. That's it for me. With luxury or without, sleeper trains are not for me, because there is no sleep involved.