Advice/help for 21-22 day Europe Itinerary June/July '17

Your proposal is 21 nights as such ...
London (2) > Amsterdam (2) > Munich (4) > Venice (2) > Florence (3) > Rome (4) > Cinque Terre (1) > Paris (3)

I think that's a little too busy. Drop Amsterdam to free things up.
London (3) > fly to Rome (3/4) > Cinque Terre (2) > Florence (3) > Venice (2) > Munich (4) > fly to Paris (3/4)

David was being polite. This itinerary is "a little too busy" the way the Sistine Chapel is "a nice coat of paint."

I'm not just saying that out of a general "slow down; see fewer places and enjoy them more" advice, although there's certainly that. It's because of this:

with our 2 teenagers and another family of 5 who has never been

That's 9 people. A group only moves a quickly as its slowest member, and the larger the group, the slower it moves. Furthermore, don't underestimate the continuing "culture shock" of constantly changing countries and locations. Getting used to language, cuisine, buses, etc in a new place is tiring, and far more for people who aren't used to traveling.

So, if 9 people, most of whom are new to Europe and to travel, try to change locations every 2 days, that's a recipe for misery. If you really do want this kind of trip, take a guided tour, where someone else is managing the logistics; these kinds of tours can move MUCH faster than you can independently.

Don't forget about how much time it takes to get to and from any type of transportation then to your lodging. It takes a lot of time. If it were me, I would cut out one or two of your choices and spend more time at the remaining places on your list. I find it difficult to see much of anything by not spending three or more nights, at the minimum, at each location. Europe is very busy during the time you will be traveling and lines will be extremely long at major sites unless you have advanced tickets to the sites that you want to see.
I went to Italy in the 80s twice and missed Cinque Terra both times. I finally made it this past summer. It was beautiful but I was disappointed. Far too many people! The trains were full and so were the ferry boats.

Plan on going back. That way you will be able to see the sites you missed this time.
Have fun!

Thank you for your measure of "politeness" everyone, as I'm feeling the 20 year rust with Europe planning. Having said that, I kind of knew the itinerary would be picked apart and is the reason why I posted this to get your feedback and experience. It is true: Amsterdam is the one city that is the farthest out of the way, but the kids really wanted to see Anne Frank's home as well as the "Fault in Our Stars" locale haha. Also, our itinerary is very heavy in Italy so if there's a suggestion on what to drop, which one should it be..? We have flights only and everything in between is up for tweaking. But we probably need to get moving on hotel reservations, museum passes etc because our trip is in mid June.

Pragmatics......
Nine people = how much luggage? Essentially you are moving a platoon of folks of all ages. Everyone needs to do the platoon a favor and absolutely minimize the amount of luggage being toted (unkess you are bringing a couple of mules)
Forget hotels, stay a minimum of three nights at each destination and rent apartments for the following benefits: more space, kitchen, sometimes a clothes washer and often a better value.
21 days = plan for one day off in the middle of the trip to do nothing
Host a meeting with all travelers to have a transparent unvarnished discussion about everyones travel expectations.
You are traveling at high tide of the tourist season so count on inefficiencies to impact the timing of your schedule. And when lemons are encountered, drink lemoncilla!

Slow down and cut some places. Each time you change cities it will take at least a half day. I have a quick question. When will you do laundry? For a group that large, I am not sure many the places can get all of your laundry done in one day. It may take two days, and you are not staying in the same place that often. We have a 10 year old and have found it best to have a down day or rest day every five or six days because everyone is tired and starts to get on each others nerves. You also have to remember that some days certain places are closed and you will not be able to get in. Plan like you will get back.

It sounds like you will be out going 10-14 hours a day. Take a week at home and try it. Come home get the kids and go out walking until your meet your 10 -14 hour day for a week. it may work a day or two, but bu they fifth day you are tired. On the weekend, take the family out walking constantly around a city or park or festival staying on your feet moving around. How do you think you will feel? If you can do it, what about the other family? Do they have small kids who walk at a slower pace or need diaper changes?

With your pace, a tour might be a better idea. They take care of the logistics. If you do it yourself, as many of us here tend to do, slow down. David puts together a great logical schedule. I like his second one, where he drops Amsterdam.

OK. Amsterdam back in, but wave good bye to some of Italy, and now down to six destinations.

London (3) > fly to Rome (4) > Venice (3) > Munich (4) > fly to Amsterdam (3) > Paris (4)

Night trains connect Venice to Munich directly, but you also have a scenic direct daylight service taking 6.5 hours over the Alps via the Brenner Pass and Innsbruck.

I second or third or fourth or whatever it's up, to now the advice to see fewer places. Especially with nine people, I'd stay in just three places. You have many good options.

London has both a week of things to do in London including fine churches, fine art, history museums, castles, palaces, theater, gardens, and more plus and at least eight good daytrips: Bath, Salisbury, Cambridge, Oxford, Plymouth, Canterbury, Dover, Hampton Court. Amsterdam has a (good four or five days of museums plus even more daytrips. Paris is worth a good two weeks plus a couple daytrips. Florence and Rome are each good for a week. Both have threel or four good day trips as well. Venice would not be my choice for a week but there are a number of daytrips in easy range from there.

If it were me I'd choose three of the above, probably London, Paris, and Rome. Fly into London and out Rome. But London, Paris, Amsterdam would take less Transit time.

With 21 nights and 9 people, I would suggest 5 places maximum. You need to all sit down and prioritise what you want to see. Why all stick together for the entire time? If the others want to do Venice and you want to do Amsterdam and they don't, why not split up for a few days and meet up again some place where you all want to go to.

Venice will be hideously busy at that time of year, with queues for everything. As a teenager, I would not have appreciated Venice as I do now. It's a pity that you didn't visit Cinque Terre on your previous trip, as I think it has been ruined by the number of visitors.

Take a down day somewhere in the middle to catch up with yourselves. Getting accommodation for 9 maybe difficult in some locations. Apartments are better than hotels so that you can do your laundry. You don't want to spend half your time washing clothes, so all bring as large a piece of check in luggage as you can manage, no small hand luggage only piece! The counties you are proposing are mostly going to be hot and you may get through 2 tops a day each.

I think you have received some excellent advice about attempting too much in the 20 days that you have available. I would go with jen's suggestion of limiting your locations to London, Rome and Paris. Since you already have booked travel into London and out of Paris I would use those two cities to book-end your trip.

With nine travelers I would also agree with renting apartments in each of these three cities. Airbnb has pretty good rental coverage in Europe. We have used them twice for multi-day rentals in London and once for the Cotswolds and were happy with all three. Most Airbnb rentals have washers and dryers so laundry can be done in the evenings while you recover from your day. Only problem is that most European washers and dryers are small and slow and nine sets of clothes may take all night!

jen has suggested some excellent day trips out of London. In Rome you might take a day trip to Pompeii and/or Herculaneum and in Paris to the Loire Valley and Normandy. Those three capitals have so much to enjoy that you probably will not want to do more than two day trips while you are in each of those cities.

Please continue to keep us posted on any changes that you are making to your itnerary.

You may cry upon reading this counsel, but it is offered with striving to help the families create wonderful memories.

London
Barcelona
Rome
Paris

Each destination offers a massive menu with an array of choices appealing to all ages.
Each destination offers a distinctly different cultural heritage.
Each destination offers excellent mass transit and with it the ability to construct your own day trips.

Barcelona also offers beachs allowing the ability to rest while being able to claim you swam in the Med.

In order to minimize travel time impact from city to city I encourage you to travel in early morning hours. Doing so allows minimizing potential of flight delays (my experience is based upon early flights being the least impacted by waiting for the arrival of aircraft), catching a nap on the flight, arriving in daylight to visually ease orientation and then having the remainder of a late afternoon into the evening to start enjoying your destination.

Tip: max your trip time by staying out later into the evening. It helps to adjust your USA tummy feeding time to eating meals later.

I have read, and reread, your post and keep deriving the same conclusions: big group, too many "wants", underestimating the impact of travel time from destination to destination, standing in lines and huge crowds due to the high tide of tourist season. Impact will be upon your ability to enjoy the journey and create wonderful memories.

Perspective: a well paced and planned journey will leave you reflecting upon how wonderful a time you enjoyed at your destinations. The alternative is being the folks who say they attempted to pack in too much and enjoyed the trip less.

Tip: planning four destinations takes a huge committment of time, but is a worthy investment. Take deep dives into learning how to by pass lines with ticket pre purchases and understanding where are the correct entries to find. Google earth at street level is your best friend for getting a visual leg up on understanding where to go.

Suggestion: once you have determined your destinations and identified the top places you desire to see/visit; start new posts asking folks for their best tips on how to enjoy achieving your travel objectives. Separate posts for each is fine and will assist posters with bringing their expertise to you.

I agree with Marbleskies. Hear him!

Nine people moving together, including 5 newbies, constitute a mass beyond the Schwarzschild radius of travel. Adding destinations subtracts more travel thrills than you get--than you will get spending more time at these wonderful destinations.

You didn't ask for Barcelona, so maybe a second Italian destination, or Amsterdam. A strong case however could be made for just 3 destinations with day trips in smaller groups.

Having done all three of these cities more than once - and in the summer as well as fall and spring, I strongly suggest that you limit your location changes to no more than four and preferably three. Each change eats up between 1/2 - 3/4 of day (regardless of whether you're taking a night train or not) when you factor in packing, transport to plane/train, journey itself, and then travel to and checking into your next accommodation. Instead of trying to figure out how to see "x" number of cities in the time that you have, I would suggest starting by prioritizing what you really want to see/do. So far, you've chosen to fly into London and out of Paris so I would start with each of these cities.
What specific sights do you want to visit and what activities do you want to do in each? Do you want to add one more big city or do you want to include a smaller town? The answer to those questions will help you determine how long to spend in each locale and what destinations are the best choices for the trip. You mentioned staying in Tuscany - which is great, but depending upon what you want to do there you may need a car - and with 9 that means 2 cars - is another person in the group open to driving? If the answer is "no" - then destinations that would require renting a car may not work for this trip.
Good luck with your planning!!

Have you considered divergent itineraries for each family, ie. splitting up for a bit.
You head to Cinque Terre while they explore Florence, where you've previously been.
And then you go to Munich and they go to Rome, meeting up again in Amsterdam.

You: London (4) > fly to Pisa then to Cinque Terre (3) > Venice (3) > Munich (4) > fly to Amsterdam (3) > Paris (4)
Them: London (4) > fly to Pisa then to Florence (3) > Venice (3) > Rome (4) > fly to Amsterdam (3) > Paris (4)

I think 6 destinations is perfectly manageable for families travelling with teenagers. The smartphone/facebook/download generation have short attention spans, and would get bored in the same place for a week. As long as you are well organised and they are disciplined morning risers.

Wow, I didn't expect so many responses and I appreciate all the time you have given. So much good advice to consider...
Perhaps I should've clarified our kids' ages which are 15, 16, 17, 18, and a 20 yr old. Everyone, therefore, should be capable of lugging their own gear which we intend to keep to small carry on sizes only. Going to follow the Rick Steves advice and pack light, so no check in size bags! I only have so many hotel points for 1/3 of our trip, so we do plan on looking into AirBnB's and will definitely look for ones with washer/dryers...good tip; I hadn't even thought of the laundry situation yet. Our group members are fit and active, including the adults, and yes we like hikes, nature, etc so we'll all need a decompress day for sure. As far as splitting up, our group prefers to stay together although i.e. if we're in Paris and someone wants to go to shopping versus a museum, we can split up our time then.
Well, it looks like we'll be having a meeting ASAP to cut our itinerary. David, I did like your 2 trip suggestions so our end result may be something similar.

I would think that if travelling with 15, 16, 17, 18, and 20 yr old, you will be lucky to get out of your hotel by midday each day. Good luck. lol

When I see 9 people total traveling together, I automatically think how nice it would be to rent a villa in Umbria--with a cook. Then take day trips with a couple of rental cars.
You've received a lot of really good suggestions about which cities to go to. And I also like throwing Barcelona in as Vueling Airlines flies there from everywhere in Europe cheap. You can also get to Paris from Barcelona on one of the fast trains.

With kids that old, you may consider dropping them at the sand and beach think in Paris, when they have reached church and Museum burnout, while the rest of you visit 2nd level churches or more museums. It is just a thought that they may like. With Cell phones, they can keep in touch. Just an idea. It would give the a sense of freedom in a foreign city. Or go eat in the Latin Quarter in Paris, find them a place to eat by themselves and then find a place for the adults down the street, that way they have a sense of freedom but you are just a few places away. Take them into a McDonalds to see beer on the menu or let them eat there. I despise the place, but for teens they may find it neat. It also had free bathrooms, which we visit every chance we get. We have visited some that have desert counters, like a fine restaurant. They may get a kick out of it. We visited the one in Paris on the Camps Elysee.

csu15269, the Paris Plage (faux beach along the Seine) would be a great idea for teens as it can be a fun place to hang out. Unfortunately the OP will not be in Paris when it takes place (July 20-Aug 21, 2017).

You're somewhere in the Bay area?

If you go to travel group meetings, you can gets tons and tons of help.

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/travel-meetings/san-francisco-bay-area-travel-group-1-14

You've just missed the Larkspur one for this month but the Sacramento one is this weekend.

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/travel-meetings/sacramento-travel-meeting-sat-1-21-10-00

Take the teenagers and then listen to them afterwards.

i would choose a maximum of 5 destination:

London (5 days)
Paris (4 days)
Venice (3 days)
Florence (5 days) with 2 day trips to Siena And Chianti region
Rome (5 days)
I would also drop Amsterdam And Munich which I would leave for another time.

If you just wish to see capitals I would do

London (5 days)
Amsterdam ( 2 days Max)
Paris (4 days)
Madrid (4 days)
Rome (6 days)

A couple years ago we traveled with 7 adults, three were in their 20's. Everyone was great about getting up and going, taking care of themselves, etc. but, it was still like moving cattle! We even had a 9 person van so we were all together. We had a cottage in the countryside and then had the same hotel with different rooms in London and we would go to a given site together and then split up and meet at the end of the day. At times we split up during the day and went to different sites. We spent 5 nights in the Cotswolds of England and then 7 nights in London. We all had been to Europe before so we had experience and it was a obviously an English speaking country.

As much as I love my family, it was my least favorite trip to Europe. I was prepared for it to be difficult, and it was. There was miscommunication between groups, seems like we were always waiting for someone, frustrations would build because it is just too hard to move a group very well with that size, everyone got tired, cranky, and that was a short trip!

You add in more people, moving rapidly, inexperienced travelers, foreign language, packed with tourists, keeping track of everyone, etc, it just doesn't sound like a very nice trip to me. The trip itself sounds great! Doing it with all those people sounds like a nightmare! Sorry! Just my opinion.

We were happy when our trip was over, and that is not the kind of experience you want. I would highly suggest you stay put at least 5-7 nights in each location. It would be much easier if you planned to break up the group and send groups out of 2-4 people and not try to meet up as a group of 9. Maybe plan dinner together, or maybe not even that. Maybe just plan to be together mornings and at night. I know it doesn't sound like it will be a problem when you have all adults and responsible people, but it will be!

We normally travel with our family of 3, we usually rent cars, and it is easy. We spend minimum of 3 nights for smaller villages and cities 4-5 nights. I can not imagine moving your group at the pace you are thinking. I hope you rethink the whole plan and come up with a way to make it a great trip for everyone instead of a frustrating experience. I think if you make a good plan it will help it to be successful and then everyone will plan to go back and see the things they didn't get to see this time.

Wow, Susan has described it so well. Compare it with small tour groups that can move quickly because of the authority the guide has, the participants' awareness that there is a set schedule that must be followed, and peer pressure from strangers to follow the rules. You'll have none of that, no set-in-stone itinerary, no single authoritarian group leader, and it's likely that people will expect their loving family and close friends to be forgiving when they dawdle.

Hello everyone,
After sifting through and digesting all of your advice/ suggestions, I was getting worried that our group wouldn't be friends by the end of the trip! We cut the cities down to 6 and were very close to doing the itinerary David had suggested. But, now we have decided to reduce the stress even further and do the MyWay Europe 14 day tour. Needless to say, I'm very happy as it includes Cinque Terre (it was going to get cut in our alternate itinerary) AND we were also able to take advantage of the "test drive a tour guide" code on its last day. The tour falls right in between our flights, so now we have 4 days pre and 3.5 days post tour to play with. We still really want to squeeze Amsterdam in and prefer cutting London even though we're flying in there, just because we think the likelihood of one of our kids returning to London is high (good airfares, English speaking country, lots of study abroad opps). Any thoughts and tips on our new itinerary plan appreciated:

6/21 - 6/22 SFO to LHR arr @ 3pm. Stay in hotel at Heathrow.
6/23 - 6/25 Amsterdam (prob will fly vs train better?)
6/26 Amsterdam to Paris (fly in AM or Thalys train best?) for start of tour that evening
6/26 - 7/9 RS MyWay Tour 14 days Paris to Rome
7/9 - 7/10 Stay extra day in Rome
7/11 - 7/12 Rome to Paris (fly or train best?)
7/13 CDG to SFO departs 3 pm

Good decision. If you are still considering a night train, consider that it is a statistical improbability that everyone will get a good night's sleep.

The My Way tours sound perfect for your group, enjoy!

The My Way tour is a fantastic idea and as hotels and transportation are provided, that will make the planning a lot easier.

It would be prudent to have a look at RS guidebooks for the places you'll be visiting, so that you can plan efficient sightseeing and not waste any time. Two night stops will only provide one full day to see the sights. You should be able to find most of the books at your local library or larger bookshops.

I'll post more comments when my internet service is back to normal. Typing on a phone is such an effort!

Hi,

So, based on the revised itinerary, you have decided to drop Munich? Munich to Venice could have been done on a night train. Save that for the nest trip.

It's too bad you bought your tickets to arrive in London and depart out of Paris, especially as you are spending time in neither place. You are losing days here!

Can't you change to arrive in AMS and depart from Rome?

Instead of staying at Heathrow, find a central London hotel for the night and have dinner and a walk around. Fly to A'dam from London City airport the next day.

A'dam to Paris is best by train. There are direct trains that take 3.5 hours. Rome to Paris by plane. If you leave Rome in the morning, you'll have time to enjoy a bit more of Paris and have the next morning as well. It will be easier to go straight to the Rome airport in the morning after breakfast that herding everyone together later in the day. With a 3.35 flight home from CDG, you'll want to spend that last night in the city, not at the airport.

A few more thoughts....

Travel by high speed rail (Thalys) is a much better idea from Amsterdam to Paris. Flying will take longer and will absolutely be more of a hassle and probably more expensive. Keep in mind that European airlines have some fairly strict luggage rules. Travel time via direct Thalys train is 3H:27M from Amsterdam Centraal to Gare du Nord.

If you were planning to hike the popular Sentiero Azzurro trails in the Cinque Terre, note that only two of the four segments are open, and that will likely remain the same for this year. A Park Pass is required to hike those, and you can buy those at the start of the trails.

A flight from Rome / FCO to Paris / ORY is the most efficient and quickest method. You might have a look at easyJet as they operate on that route.

As you haven't been in Europe (and especially Italy) for awhiile, you'll need to be aware that there are some potentially expensive "caveats" when using trains and other public transit. If you need more information on that, post another note here. Also note that since most cities in Europe have more than one station, you'll have to familiarize yourselves with the stations you'll be using.