Wales and the Lake District in 4 Days

As you say this is a whirlwind. If you are happy with that so be it. Bath to Pembroke is about 3 hours driving time.

Pembroke to Caernarfon (a nominal location for Snowdonia) is 4 hours drive time without stops.

Caernarfon to Kendal for the Lake District is 3 hours on a good day without stops (Keswick is another hour beyond that)

Kendal or Keswick to York about 2.5 hours.

I am suggesting Kendal for three reasons- first distance from North Wales, secondly for historic interest.
Close to Kendal you have Levens Hall, Holker Hall, Sizergh Castle (not a Castle, more a stately home) and the ruins of Kendal Castle (think Catherine Parr, 6th wife of Henry VIII). That's just your starters for ten.
For a short walk drive (or bus) to Ambleside, catch the little ferry across to Wray Castle (another mansion, not a castle), then walk down the lake shore to Claife Viewing Station and the Windermere Car ferry. Back over to Bowness, then the Open Top Bus 3x an hour or the 'steamer'/lake launch back to Ambleside. A grand day out.

From Kendal to York you have three choices-
a-Up to Carlisle for Carlisle Castle (absolutely a real castle with a long and complex history) and Carlisle Cathedral (an interesting Cathedral, free to enter, a complicated history - not least as a Cathedral and St Mary's Parish Church literally next to it). And don't forget St Cuthbert's Church almost next door- in particular the Latvian window there. Then A69/A1 to York. Oh and look out in the Cathedral for the recent Canadian involvement in restoration work on the East Window.
b-the A66,- Brougham Castle and Brougham Hall (also Dalemain Mansion on the way to the A66)- Brougham Hall is an interesting place in itself, then Appleby Castle and Brough Castle (just off the A66 at Church Brough, with a yummy ice cream parlour). And don't miss the Bowes Museum even if just to see the building from the outside. (and the nearby Egglestone Abbey)
c- the scenic country route via Pendragon Castle, Lammerside Castle, Hawes, then Bolton Castle, Jervaulx Abbey and Ripon Cathedral. A pretty full day, and exactly what a road trip should be

Hi Kelsey

Without trying to sound like the proverbial Brit poster who tells you you are trying to do too much (you probably knew that anyway) in the time available, I think it might be prudent to abandon either Wales or the Lakes on your itinerary, as four days won’t really give you the opportunity to enjoy either. See, yes, but enjoy? I’m not sure you can, especially as you have part days driving to and from your previous and next destination.

If you want to see Pembrokeshire (the area around St David’s would take a day easily for my money) and Snowdonia, then I’d suggest stopping over in Pembrokeshire for a couple of nights before spending another night in Snowdonia, heading for York midway through your second day there. Snowdonia has some definite affinities with the Lake District in terms of appearance so you would get a feel for what you are sacrificing in the Lakes. There are castles all the way up the Welsh coast including in the north, affording you a choice!

My worry of a 2/2 split in Wales and the Lakes is that you’d only see them from the windows of your car and not be able to get out and explore, if only a little bit. That said, seeing this as a road trip only where the areas are glimpsed as you drive through maybe what you had in mind anyway. That said, I’d always say you need more time in York - I spent over half a day earlier this week investigating the history of the railways in York and the redevelopment of the ‘Teardrop’ behind the ‘new’ railway station, which I admit is an esoteric subject, but gives a clue to the wealth of history the city has to offer!

Whatever you decide, have a great trip!

Ian

As stated, two days isn’t long at all for Wales and I wouldn’t want to try and see both the south and north in that limited time. Pembroke Castle is very nice, but there are other closer castles that are equally nice; Coch, Caerphilly, Chepstow, and Raglan come to mind. Monmouth is nice to walk around for 1-2 hours and Tintern Abbey is worth visiting if you enjoy abbey ruins. From there you could head north through the Wye Valley, then Shropshire towards Shrewsbury and Chester.

Don’t underestimate the amount of time you’ll spend driving, especially if you get behind a truck, tractor, or slow moving car, or if there is construction. Also, the amount of time you’ll spend visiting places. Believe we spent between 2-3 hours visiting Pembroke Castle (parking, walking to the castle, and visiting it).

My advice would be to cut out your overnight in Gloucester. Driving yourself from Oxford to Bath you can do plenty of lovely drives and these locations are pretty close together. After Bath I would move to Cardiff, stopping at Tintern Abbey on your way. using this as a base to see some Castles (Castell Coch, Caerphilly Castle) and spend a day at St Fagans Museum of Welsh life. Cardiff has some attractive architecture in the Civic Centre, Victorian era Castle, attractive Victorian arcades and the impressive concert hall in Cardiff Bay. You can then drive up to the Lakes and stop at Gloucester Cathedral on your way. The Lake District is lovely, but if you want to reduce your travel time a bit and to link better with your next stop in York you could consider the Peak District instead.

Thank you everyone. I a going to drop the Lake district to be able to spend 4 days in Wales. Now to decide how to spend 4 days
I will be starting in Cardiff and ending in Snowdonia

Spending more time in Wales - that being so, the answers given in this earlier thread are relevant:> https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/wales/about-10-12-days-for-wales-using-public-transit-in-september

Another potential stop on the way from Bath to Cardiff at Dyrham Park - a National Trust grand house and parkland.

Given your interests in beautiful scenery, I suggest you skip Bath and the Cotswolds to spend more time in Wales and York. To me, St. Fagan's Museum of Welsh Life is a must and is easily reached from Cardiff. A day trip from York to the Yorkshire Dales would be nice too. I would consider taking the train to York or Bath(if you must go there) when you first arrive in England and put all your London days at the end of the trip. Moving hotels and locations is time-consuming and tiring, so limiting that would be a good idea. I know this muddies the water, but your itinerary looks like life going by in a blur. I have been everywhere on your itinerary except Gloucester and Hampton Court and I consider Bath and the Cotswolds missable and York and Wales to be so much better. I also wonder if you should choose one of Hampton Court and Chatsworth, but not both.

Two days in South Wales and two days in the North will definitely give you a good flavour of Wales - maybe 1 night in Cardiff, 1 night in either Pembrokeshire or Brecon, then drive up the middle (lovely drive!) and have two nights in North Wales.

If you stay somewhere central in North Wales like Betws-y-Coed / Trefriw or Conwy you can definitely see most of the North Wales 'hits' on your full day here - you can easily drive through the mountains of the National Park, visit Anglesey / Beaumaris maybe, and Conwy / Llandudno for the evening in one day.

Then your drive from North Wales to York is pretty straightforward heading east / north east.

Thank you BrandyBob. Our 1st night is in Cardiff. Now I a am trying to decide in the South between Caerphilly Castle, Castell Coch or Cardiff Castle and in the North between Castell Conway, Castell Dolwyddelan, Castell Harlech or Caernarfon Castle. We do not have time to see all of them so was looking at 1 or 2 in each region.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this.

I would try and avoid driving into Cardiff city centre as the Council have declared war on cars. The centre of the city is virtually all pedestrianised streets - which is lovely for walking around.

Consider a hotel on the edge of the city (with free parking) such as near M4 junction 32 in north Cardiff. This location would make Castell Coch a VERY short drive away and Caerphilly Castle about 15 minutes driving time away. You could also reach St.Fagans Castle & Museum in about 15 minutes by exiting the M4 (like an interstate) at J33 & taking A4232 S for about 2 miles and then L into the Museum drive (beware of sharp corner). If you wanted to go into the city centre to see Cardiff Castle - you could drive to Radyr station (free parking) and take an electric train (every 10 minutes) into the city centre.

Here is a Google Map of the area mentioned above. The A470 road going N os the route you could take to N Wales and it is very scenic for the most part.

In N Wales, Dolwyddelan is not an impressive castle -more like a single tower. Portmeirion and Bodnant Gardens are worth seeing if not to far off your intended routes.

Re. castles - Dolwyddelen is tiny and access is limited at the moment, so missable. Harlech is impressive but slightly out the way (although you could do it on the way 'up' from South Wales if you come up the A470, with a slight diversion).

You could easily do Caernarfon and Conwy in one day - a morning and afternoon in each town with a 35-45mins drive between them. If you stayed around Trefriw / Betws-y-Coed you could drive to Caernarfon through the mountains, do that castle, back along the coast in the afternoon to Conwy for the town and castle, and then a short drive back down the Conwy Valley at the end of the day. That is a good day out!!! (You would also drive past Dolbadarn Castle at the end of Llyn Padarn - a lake - it is ruined and small but in a stunning location so worth a photo stop)

Both are impressive so it is difficult to decide between them. Caernarfon is bigger but Conwy is pretty special (and the town it dominates is lovely). If I HAD to decide.... Conwy, but definitely consider both.

I'm with Brandbybob. Skip Dolwyddelen. I too much prefer Conwy to Caernarfon Castle. There is more left of the internal buildings and you really get a feel of what it would have been like to live in a Medieval castle (cramped). Caernarfon is larger and the inside is basically bare.... Also you can walk along quite a long stretch of the walls on Conwy too.

If your itinerary takes you through Llanberis, there is also Dolbadarn Castle which is worth a quick look. Like Dolwyddelen, this is a Welsh Castle and very different to Conwy, Caernarfon and Harlech which were built by Edward I to subjugate the Welsh. Entry is free and it is acccessible daylight hours. It is accessible off the road from Llanberis to The National Slate Museum (also free and also well worth a visit). Theres a car park on the left and a footpath on the right leads to the castle.

(Wasleys - nice idea but the slate museum is closed for refurb until next year - the car park is open still though :-)

Oh and if you are visiting more than a couple of castles in Wales then a CADW explorer pass will save you a lot of money!

CADW explorer pass

Thank you everyone. Reading last night, the different websites made it sound like Carenafron had more of interior intact and that Conway would easily be seen walking the town walls. So based on that I had chosen Carenafron, but now I am questioning.....UGGG

For South Wales, I think I have decided to skip all castles in Cardiff and see Pembroke. We are staying the 1st night in Cardiff and that is a non-refundable room so I will start the journey there. I know overall I still have too much (have dropped like 28 places so far...lol), but will have to drop as we go. I keep reminding myself that this is a go and see roadtrip to get a flavor and we will come back in the future to say longer and do more indepth. I think the last night we will stay in either Conway or Llandudno. It is the 2 nights in between I'm not sure about.

Here is the current itinerary. Does this sound more realistic?
Day 1:
Leave Cardiff and drive to Gospel Pass
Drive through Tenby on way to Saint Govan's Chapel (explore)
Visit Pembroke Castle
Drive by St Davids Cathedral (will be closed probably) on way to Aberystwyth to perhaps sleep

Day 2
Drive by Castell Harlech
Drive through Portmeirion
Explore Caernarfon Castle
Head towards Rhyd-Ddu and to Betws-y-Coed
Visit Swallow Falls
Continue on through Capel Curig, Pen-y-Pass, Llanberis Pass back to Caernarfon to stay?

Day 3
Visit South Stack Lighthouse
Perhaps visit Beaumaris Castle
Visit Bangor Cathedral
View Aber Falls
Staying?????

Day 4
Walk Conwy Town Walls (and view castle from there)
Visit Great Orme
Walk through Llandudno
If time allows visit Plas Mawr

We need to be at the Bed and breakfast in York by 7:30 8:00 at the latest so Day 4 is cut short with a lot of driving.
Day 2

Day 1 has nigh on 8 hours of driving in it, which adding it all up makes for close on a twelve hour day. Tenby is not actually on the line of route to Pembroke.

Day 2 has a significant deviation in it to visit Caernarfon in the middle of the day, Scenery notwithstanding I can't help but feel that day could be better ending at Conwy. Or maybe even Betwys y Coed. Then do Capel Curig/Llanberis Pass next day from Betws y c next day on your way to Anglesey.

Day 4- You are going to be crossing Manchester whichever way you do it in the evening peak which will add time and stress to the journey. I've just looked it up on journey planning software and it says go over Thelwall and the M62.
That may or may not be right, but when I was working on the Thelwall viaduct I used to find that the M56 was my preferred route- there wasn't much in it but enough to make the M56 (past the airport) the generally preferred route. As I say I'm not going to argue the point over five to ten minutes on average, just observing.

This is certainly just a taster, with quite a fair pace in it.

One thing you should know is you cannot drive through Portmeirion - it is a gated 'tourist village', very pretty on a sunny day but with it very touristy, admission fee etc, and you cannot see it from the road! If you did stop it would be a few hours at least to do it justice.

The rest sounds doable but there are some long drives like isn31c said - I really would consider staying in one place in North Wales and day-tripping everywhere!

You are also cramming a lot into that one full day in North Wales eg. Aber Falls is a good 45-60 mins hike each way from the car park. You'd be best doing the Swallow Falls, Grey Mare's Tail and Fairy Falls in Trefriw which are all close to each other if you want a good waterfalls fix, and if you stayed in that area (eg. around Betws-y-Coed) you wouldn't have the drive back to Caernarfon.

Thank you, will drop Portmeirion completely. I'm not opposed at all in staying in one location. But if Day 3, we are heading to South Stack 1st thing, going from Caernarfon seemed to save travel time. Same with Day 4, if we are only seeing the Great Orme and Conway/Llandudno it seemed staying there would also reduce travel time. Everything I've searched said the best views of Snowdon is to go counter-clockwise from Caernarfon which is what led me to the current route If that is not the case, then perhaps rearrange to Day 3 in front of Day 2? I am also using the Wanderlog App to optimize the shortest travel times. I am but I have been manipulating it to some extent to ensure the places we want to stop are within their opening hours and giving us the time to explore.

What are your thoughts on Beaumaris and Bangor Cathedral vs Penrhyn Castle and Gardens? In England I will be seeing Windsor, Hampton Court, Chatsworth House and if by some uknown miracle happens Sudeley

You all have been very helpful.

Ultimately the choice is yours, as there isn't a perfect answer to this conundrum. On a personal level I want you to stay in Caernarfon but that is by the by.
I was just trying to balance the daily driving times out a bit. If you're happy with what you have it's your vacation.

I agree Caernarfon would be one night, then Conwy. The forum is not normally overly fond of one night stays, I'm less fussed.

I have somehow never managed to get to Bangor Cathedral (or if I have its about 50 years ago, so beyond my memory) but if I personally had the choice of Beaumaris (a very real castle) and Bangor over Penrhyn Castle (a mock castle with a history tied in to slavery and slate extraction- ultimately a very rich man's house) I'm choosing the former every time.
However that is just me, my prejudices, my conscience. In my town in Cumbria we have a legacy of slavery as well, something which we are trying to explain and understand. It isn't easy.
The Cathedral is marking it's 1,500th anniversary of founding this year. I do have it in Phase 4 of a tour of Cathedrals of the UK.

Drop Penrhyn Castle - it is 'nice' but would not be high on the list of places to visit if in North Wales for a few days (Plan Newydd on Anglesey or Bodnant Gardens are far more impressive)

Aberystwyth - Harlech - Caernarfon - South Stack - Beaumaris - A5 road via Bethesda to Betws-y-Coed / Mountains - up to Conwy / Llandudno before heading onwards would be a logical route with possible overnights on the way if that is what you prefer!

Really not sure about Bangor Cathedral too unless you have personal reasons to go there, especially as you are heading to York!

Okay, I have rearranged with input from both @isn31c @brandybob. Based on my Wanderlog App and Google driving time is easy (assuming they are right,, but they both are simiiar

Day 2 - 4.5 hours in car
Drive from Aberystwyth, do a drive by of Castell Harlech on way to South Stack
Explore for a while and head back to Caernarfon and spend the rest of the day at the castle
Spend the night in BeddgelertVi

Day 3 - 2.5 hours in car
Drive up through Pen-y-Pass to Llanberis. Turn around and head back through Capel Curig to Swallow Falls
Drive through Betws-y-Coed to Beaumaris Castle and Bangor Catherdral
Hike to Aber Falls
End day walkng conwy town walls and staying in Llandudno

Day 4
Visit Conwy Castle, Plas Mawr and drive the Great Orme - Drive to York

This all may work or not, only time will tell... LOL Thank you both so much

I like it!!! That is a nice variety of sights and scenery in your short amount of time.

Day 1 is impossible. The Gospel Pass is a very narrow road through the Black Mountains - which are NE of Cardiff - completely the wrong direction if heading W to Pembrokeshire. I also drove over the Gospel Pass in March and trust me - it is a very slow road and if you meet someone coming the other way - you may have to drive backwards to a passing place.

You will need to drive west from Cardiff direct to Tenby. These roads are very good but even so, it will take about 1 hour 50 minutes to reach Tenby from Cardiff as it is a 100 mile trip. Tenby is well worth seeing.

2 roads go from Tenby to Pembroke and that leg takes about 35 minutes. Forget St.Govan’s as it is going out of your way.

Consider St.David’s as an optional extra (see how things are going) and consider driving N to Cardigan instead. The direct route from Haverfordwest is the B4329 over the Presely Mountains. Driving on to spend a night in Aberystwyth is pushing it so consider staying in the lovely little town of Aberaeron - and if you have time - visit New Quay.

Day 2 is more viable and on reaching Dolgellau, I suggest you the A496 via Barmouth (worth a look) to Harlech. From Harlech - drive around to Portmeirion. As has been said, you can’t drive through and must park & pay to enter. It is well worth it. Not sure how much else you will manage on day 2 but likely that Swallow Falls will have to be deleted.

Day 3. I don’t think that Bangor is worth visiting. Time might be better spent driving in a loop around Snowdon - but note that due to tourism pressure, they are now have hefty charges for parking at the head of the Llanberis Pass and the police tow away cars parked on the ‘A' roads. (Everybody wants to climb the highest mountain in Wales & England - or take the mountain railway from Llanberis).
Alternatively, head over to Anglesey. South Stack is impressive but you have a fair old drive to reach it. Consider Plas Newydd on the island side of the straits combined with a drive down to the beach at Newborough (Niwbwch). You might even have time for Beaumaris Castle at the end of the day?

Day 4 - if you were going to do Aber Falls, I would do it on day 4 on the way to Conwy via the coast road. Aber Falls are lovely but it is a fair hike from the car park. On this day, you might also like to try and fit in Bodnant Gardens.