“Sitting ducks pay $177 for lunch at Trattoria da Romano, Burano, Italy”

I really don't think this is a scam to trap tourists. See this other thread on the same subject and read the responses.

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/italy/rookie-error-know-what-per-kilo-is-in-italian

Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying you ordered the fish without knowing what it would cost?

Yep, as with the other poster, you probably missed the "per etto" price notation: the fish was priced by weight of the serving. No, it's not a scam but simply how seafood is sometimes sold in Italian restaurants. It's like meat, seafood or cheese at the grocery store deli that's priced per pound or ounce.

Can I ask what kind of fish it was?

To all responders...

You are correct on all counts (should have verified more clearly the price, or price/kilo on fish) ... My bad on that one.

It was a Flounder. Flounder is not an expensive fish in the states so I guess I let my guard down.

But if you look on trip advisor for this restaurant you will see they have been called out several times in the past for unscrupulous pricing along the same lines (I did not have this info at the time of our visit). I don't feel it should be necessary to vette everything about a restaurant before walking in. We had no other issues or surprises like this in any other restaurants we visited during our month-long trip. This was a clear exception by an establishment that appears to intentionally try to deceive customers for a few extra bucks. Take it as you will

Fodors.com has basic phrases in Italian ( and other languages) with English translations. Heading the list of phrases under shopping is "Quanto costa". How much does this cost? We too have learned some expensive lessons when merely order a coffee in Budapest on Vaci Utca and not asking the cost. Lesson learned. Once we learn a few basic greetings in any language as we travel we make it a point to learn how to ask how much something costs in the local language.

"intentionally try to deceive customers for a few extra bucks" - I don't think so. Most of the customers would have been Italian speaking, or at least understand enough Italian to know what "per etto" means and know fish is often sold that way in Italian restaurants.

If you really did think you had been intentionally fraudulently deceived, the correct procedure is to pay what you think is a fair price, and if they object, leave your name and address and dare them to call the police. But keep the bill as proof.

Anything in the scam posts is taken seriously by contributors here and many try to flesh out if it was indeed a scam, a situation where tourists are treated differently, or simply a surprising unpleasant experience leaving a bad taste. Looking at some posts from Chowhound--the people who travel on their stomachs for the best foodie experience, and a few Trip Advisor reviews in Italian, this seems to have a mixture. Because it is a high-priced restaurant, people who take price into account and are surprised give it low marks, a few Italians and English-speakers say the price isn't worth the quality, but those who aren't looking at price give it high marks all around, in both English and Italian. Because most people go there knowing it's high-priced, maybe it is neither an unpleasant experience, nor a scam to them. That said, one restaurateur on Chowhound from England did say it was the worst experience of his life and he thought Italians and non-Italians were treated differently. Of course, following that another foodie said he had an opposite experience.

In any case--thanks for the warning. I have a restaurant like this in Burgundy that for some reason still makes the Michelin every year, but I wouldn't send my worst enemy to.

Flounder @ $100...time to get out my fishing rod.

This place was visited by Anthony Bourdain on his No Reservations show so is a popular foodie destination---and priced accordingly. It is unfortunate that you feel taken advantage of---but how could you order the fish without knowing the price?

It can be very confusing--you see a price on the menu and imagine that it's the total price when it's actually the price per kilo.

It's not just Italy--we've seen fish listed that way on menus at seaside restaurants in Greece and Turkey (probably other places too!)

Thanks for the reminder to read the menu carefully and be clear about the cost!

It's interesting how some people when travelling, categorize anything they have found confusing or have misunderstood as a "scam". I suppose for some it is a reaction to being in a foreign country, dealing with language problems and generally feeling "one down" and out of their element.

Whether or not it's a real scam (intention to deceive), it's still seems like highway robbery to charge $50 for a piece of flounder (unless the flounder is somehow rare or hard to fish in Italy or its preparation was superb to justify such a markup). The punchline is expensive restaurants are sometimes a poor value (that's highly subjective though), so beware if you are more value-conscious. Hopefully the quality, taste, and preparation of the flounder was worth the price. I ate an insanely expensive lobster in Iceland but the quality was (almost) worth it...so no complaints on that one (I knew the restaurant was expensive and the fish would be highest quality, so I wasn't surprised).

It's odd that "trattorias" seem like anything but their original purpose:
(Wikipedia) "A trattoria is an Italian-style eating establishment, less formal than a ristorante, but more formal than an osteria. There are generally no printed menus, the service is casual, wine is sold by the decanter rather than the bottle, prices are low, and the emphasis is on a steady clientele rather than on haute cuisine. The food is modest but plentiful (mostly following regional and local recipes) and in some instances is even served family-style (i.e. at common tables)."

On our trip to Italy last September we found ourselves often ordering blindly, partially because we were too timid to ask (I know, not a good reason) or just too confused by the many menu options or just too excited to be there and wanting to order everything and anything. Fortunately we didn't get too many surprises in the bill. So while I wouldn't go so far as to label your experience as a "scam" I would say that the restauranteur's practices could have been a bit more uh, "user friendly."

At the same time, we also found ourselves ordering off of purely Italian menus from non-english speaking staff, among items that had NO familiar words (i.e., "spaghetti", "linguini"). This happened in Rome, where I decided to just randomly point to something and wait to see what would appear at the table. I have no food allergies and eat just about anything so this was a fun little experiment. On that occasion what I got was a plate of meatballs in some kind of lemon sauce.

In a way this is a similar situation as foreigners to the U.S. who think they're buying an item at one price only to be handed a bill for a higher price - a considerably higher price, depending on the cost of that item - at checkout? Sales taxes, hotel taxes, city taxes, resort taxes, etc. are unknown in many other parts of the world. Is it a scam? No but they may feel like they've been had.

I wonder how many of them also struggle over menus - which are almost NEVER in anything but English - with no waitstaff who speaks their language to help them?

One of the user photos on TripAdvisor shows a menu that's just barely clear enough for me to read. I see first courses listed with double-digit prices, from €18-23 per serving, but many of those are only served for a minimum of two people. In this case, the total for two is displayed underneath, which you don't always get. I saw this "minimum two" format a lot in Venice, especially for risotto or seafood pastas. But that is a premium price, to start with.

The average price of the whole fishes on the printed menu looks like about €10 per 100 grams. The grilled fish has no other "rules" and if I have not asked any details from the waiter or seen the fish, I might assume that the whole fish would cost 3-4 times that price. But the oven-baked fish requires a two-person minimum. Maybe this baking process is only appropriate for very large specimens, therefore a warning that they don't think a single person should attempt it? Or that they have smaller fish but won't cook them this way? As a single diner, I'd rather be told the size and price of the fish than be told that I can't have it. As a couple, I still wouldn't have any more info on the hugeness of the fish without pressing for details. Italians love to talk about food, so the local diner probably will get into the specific details and ask to "meet their meat" first.

speaking of "meet the meat"....

I am reminded of a restaurant called Ristorante St. Anna in Rome, a small, unassuming out-of-the-way place on a side street near the Largo di Torre Argentina. We had the best baked fish there. I have no idea what kind of fish it was and wasn't even sure if we asked the price. But the waiter did bring it out on a platter to show us before they cooked it. It was good size, completely crusted with salt and looked very fresh. The total bill, including the fish, which was shared between the two of us, a pasta for each of us, wine, mineral water, and all you can eat antipasto bar, was only 50euro total.

I'm so glad I don't eat seafood! :)

It does sound like buyer beware, not necessarily a scam but like going into a Rolls Royce dealership and not realizing just how much a "car" can cost.

And clearly, emailing the restaurant is not going to result in any satisfaction. You might want to take it up with Venetian tourism authorities, they might be more interested in knowing about such things.

Why would the Venetian authorities be 'interested' in something that's customary when eating at a better class of restaurant? It's unfortunate if tourists are caught unaware of how things work but it's not a crime if it's not spelled out in English?

My first clear memory of the price-per-100g issue was about six years ago in a Chinese buffet near the Moulin Rouge very late in the evening (or early in the morning, depending on your pov) -- When the server behind the counter told me how much the plate she had filled for me totaled, I pointed to the sign and she said that's per each scoop or thereabouts (all of this in French that was neither of our 1st-languages).
I apologized and walked out. Lesson learned. Neither of us was happy, but neither of us had lost our enthusiasm for our roles, I imagine.

Flash forward, and a city employee that I became chatty with responded to my question about where to dine in the Olde Towne by saying "If you eat here you will be getting tourist-quality food and paying tourist-level prices to do so." Good advice. Pack lightly so you can trek over to where the locals eat, and then come back for the visitor attractions.

Reminds me a bit of the per 100g fro-yo places here. They only have one size cup - which is giant...and if you aren't paying attention and fill that sucker up and load on the toppings, you can be looking at a $15 cup of fro-yo. We only went once, and I think mine was $7...when the girl at the counter found out it was our first time, she said - 'you did good...most people end up with $15+ cups'. I can imagine the shock if you don't realize how fast that adds up...I wouldn't want to pay $15 for a cup of frozen yogurt.

I have never been to the Romano. Looking at the tripadvisor photos, that restaurant looked quite fancy and i would have expected higher prices to match.

And I see that a lot of tourists went there because of some Anthony Beaudoin(?) TV show review. We went to La Cucina del Garga in Florence because of a Guy Fieri recommendation on a Diners, Drive-in and Dives episode. It was very good... and also our most expensive meal of our 3 week trip. It is probable that there is premium pricing for the fame.

I am careful when buying food at a fancier restaurant by the weight or market price. Chances are those items are going to be pricey. I usually ignore them and just focus on the items with set prices because I don't want to be embarrassed by the prices. If It is a special place or occassion and I am interested in ordering the special item, i put on my best poker face and ask for the price. And if I do order, when the bill comes, I put on that same poker face and pull out my credit card.

We have eaten there once and it is no scam.This is an upscale restaurant that has many entertainers, royalty, well off business people, etc who eat there and the prices are the same for all as is the 12% charge. It is not their fault if you don't speak or read Italian. The prices are the same for locals and tourists alike. It hardly seems fair to go everywhere on here, TripAdvisor, and other travel review sites running down a restaurant because you couldn't read the menu or find out the price of an item before ordering it. I went to TripAdvisor as you said and there are only about 11 complainers, some dating back several years, with most not being about the food or service but about the prices. The prices are clearly marked on the menu so why people would order and then complain online about prices is beyond me. I suspect those who do that are not accustomed to fine dining establishments. This isn't McDonald's. They were not trying to deceive anyone. Those handful of complaints on TripAdvisor are people who knew the prices and wanted to complain. These are their prices and you should always be sure of the price of anything before ordering.

The pricing of fresh fish and seafood by weight is not only common in Italy, but elsewhere in Europe. I've run into it in restaurants in the U.S., as well. The other pricing phenomenon that I'm careful about is items not on the menu, but mentioned as "specials" by the waiter, without a word about cost. If I don't feel comfortable about asking, I just don't order that item. I assume that such specials will be pricey. I would never order anything without knowing how much it will set me back.

All that being said, I hope this experience has not colored your entire view of your trip. There is a learning curve for foreign travel. There was a thread running here some time ago about mistakes people made on their first trips. Lots of folks chimed in and said that they had done everything mentioned and lots more. So welcome to the club. Most European restaurants post a menu outside. One lesson I hope you've learned is to check or ask to see one, if it isn't posted.

funpig,

"And I see that a lot of tourists went there because of some Anthony Beaudoin(?) TV show review."

If you want to have a look at the Anthony Bourdain episode that features Da Romano, go to about the 11M:30S mark on this video.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu1z5r9s_iw

I'd agree with Rosalyn, it happens here in the States as well. I've been in many restaurants right here in CA where the waiter goes on at length about their specials but never, ever mention the price. And if it's a fancy place, I wonder how many patrons actually ask.

I don't know about anybody else, but I would never buy anything without knowing the price first. And I have never been afraid of committing a faux-pas by asking. If the price isn't on the menu, then ASK before ordering. Many seafood restaurants here in the US (and anywhere for that matter) have some items that are 'market price' on the menu and you have to ask - unless of course you're familiar with the market value of certain fish.

I doubt we'll hear back from the OP, he came here to rant and those never end well on an Internet forum. What he got was an expensive travel lesson, I've had a few of those myself. I can't take his side or feel bad for him since it wasn't a scam, just an uninformed tourist. I can understand why the restaurant owner feels the way he does about a platform where people can accuse his restaurant of things they apparently know little about.
Maybe someone will read this and not make a similar mistake, so for that we can thank him.

I am glad Nancy mentioned this.. because here we have 'market price" on menus for many seafoods.. it usually translates into "expensive" because its not a frozen fish filet.. its something fresh and often something in season.. so.. usually pricey.

I will note that the OP said the food was good and he enjoyed his meal.. so really its all about him not understanding the menu or the pricing.

Whos fault is that?

I do not think locals are required to speak English to you .. but then.. even if they could speak English you did not ask what things mean on the menu that you did not understand.. ie the pricing "per etta"

PS In 1985 , as a young backpacker.. my friend and I were starving.. so stopped for a nice steak dinner on the Champs Elysees..

Dinner cost us almost 100 dollars.. in 1985.. as young back packers.. Let me assure you.. that was our WEEKLY food budget..

Lesson learned.. we were too embarrassed to get up and leave after seeing menu.. and were not too clear on the Francs/Dollars conversion.

Fouquets.. a well known ( to every one but young stupid backpackers apparently) pricey over rated restaurant..

After dinner , I phoned my grandmother to tell her we were on way home.. she asked if we had eaten. I said yes.. at Fouquets.. she just about bust a gut laughing and wondered how we paid bill.. lol

This brings up an interesting dynamic: when does a restaurant progress from simple overcharging tourist trap to an out-and-out scam?

We experienced the former at a dinner in March at a restaurant in Florence, Buca Mario, that also has good reviews on the boards. Touted as one of the oldest standing restaurants in Florence (since 1888), it was over the top from the moment we walked in, being greeted by no less than 5 different members of the waitstaff. Entree prices were high, wine was astronomical. We should have gotten up & walked out regardless but whattheheck, we decided to stay. The cheapest half-bottle was 33 Euro, and up from there. After we finished our decent but not fantastic meal, the waiter brought a couple tiny glasses of limoncello to the table. "Limoncello?", he asked. Sure, we said. We also assumed they were comped. Not so fast, a 10 Euro charge for the two. How can I argue? We drank them.

This wasn't 170 Euro bad like the original poster, but the total bill was over 100 Euro, and with all the choices in Florence, unless one has a taste for a specialty there's no reason to pay that kind of money. I had a better beef sandwich from Nerbone at Mercato Centrale the next day for 3 Euro.

Buyer beware!

Just find a good cheap eats place and average down your meal expense over the course of your trip:

http://www.tripadvisor.ca/Restaurant_Review-g187870-d1900957-Reviews-Bacareto_Da_Lele-Venice_Veneto.html

This happened to us yesterday at a lovely little restaurant in Venice. We ordered the fish "caught that morning." They brought out a gorgeous fish that tasted even better than it looked. And when we got the bill my husband started laughing and said, "I guess we should have asked about market price!" Lesson learned. Had an inexpensive pizza for dinner. Would not change that experience at all because the entire meal was amazing, but we'll be more cautious as we order for the rest of our trip.

I feel your pain. On my first overseas trip, my friends and I were overcharged and charged for food we didn't have in Venice. Made the rookie mistake of eating close to St Marks Square. Talking to a well travelled person a few weeks ago. They hop on a local bus wherever they are in the world and take a bus to the end of the line get off and eat where the locals eat.

Judy and interesting idea.. but I sure as heck would not do that here where I live.. you would end up eating at some crap places for sure that way.. lol

I have taken those buses to the end of the line in suburbia, and in some cases, it's the end of the line for a good reason.

"They hop on a local bus wherever they are in the world and take a bus to the end of the line get off and eat where the locals eat."

Agree that it's an interesting idea, but in most touristy cities you only have to walk a couple of blocks from the main attractions to find places where locals eat. Maybe not as adventurous but easier and quicker.

I don't know about this restaurant but other posters have suggested that the price was per 100 grams. This might not be technically a scam but it is not unusual to see restaurants in other tourist spots taking advantage of a tourist's unfamiliarity with the practice by omitting to note on the menu or sign board that the price displayed is per 100 grams. The restaurants on the main square in Prague are notorious for this "gotcha".

I'm a little confused, does per etto mean per pound or per ounce?

I'm a little confused, does per etto mean per pound or per ounce?

Lauren, it is neither. Europe doesn't do pounds or ounces. It is only the metric system. One etto is 100 grams or 0.1 kg.

The equivalent weight to 100 grams (1oo g) is approximately 3.53 ounces; so one etto is approximately 3.53 oz, 2 etti are approximately 7.06 oz, 3 etti are approximately 10.59 ounces.

one etto of meat or cheese is roughly enough for one sandwich, so it is a handy shortcut.

SCAM OR NOT. It's good that phogenson posted this information so that others learn and don't make the same mistake.

I like the attitudes expressed by funpig and Amelia above. People need to accept the fact that as tourists (travelers?) they will make mistakes. In fact, there recently was a whole, very long thread on that topic. Also, it's probably not a ploy to deceive Americans. Quite a few places that I shop at here post prices for such delicacies as prosciutto, smoked salmon or shelled fresh crabmeat by the 1/2 lb. Maybe they're trying to lure the unobservant into lavish expenditures, or maybe they're just trying to avoid dealing with customers who might faint if they saw a price of $46/lb (the crab). lol.

Personally, I think any restaurant charging you 100 euros for halibut is running a scam, but let's give this restaurant the benefit of a doubt since others have vouched for it. This is a good reminder to all of us to make sure we know the price of everything we order, an if you don't understand the price, don't order it!

So what if the original post is a rant...it's an expression of legitimate frustration. Some folks on here act like it was their own families eatery being "ranted about"...others just want to rant about a rant... To feel superior maybe? We deliberately stayed out of restaurants for this very fact...the fear on screwing it up. Nothing is straight forward and simple in these places. When In Rome and and Florence there was so many focaccia and pizza joints, where all you have do is point and grunt, and get the most fabulous food on earth, that we were loath to set foot in a restaurant and when did We never ordered from the "secondi" column, only the "primi".
We spent a third of our trip well off the tourist beat, because of affordability, and I mean well off, @ "the end of the buss line" so to speak...twenty to thirty minutes out. The food was fantastic, we met real people, and we ate like they did. They couldn't speal English and were very helpful and kind. On our last night in Motta We turned on a big meal by accident and couldn't turn it off...we spent €45 for three of us. And it was great. Wine was €6 a litre. No matter how hard we tried to be the "non-bad" american, we were fish outta water. We ate there for three days. the only bad meal we had on the whole trip was in Venice...paid €40 for garbage at a "nice" place. When I mentioned this in a previous trip report I was blasted for a whole raft of things...it was my fault just for being stupid.
As much as I would like to experience a traditional Italian meal, I won't unless I am with a native. There really is no reason to when I can walk down one block in Florence and eat three focaccia sandwiches, four slices of pizza and two gelato and still be under €15.

So you favour eating establishments where to order all you have to do is "point and grunt" ? I'm at a loss for words.

Crombiezen reminds me of Lloyd McElhaney and if you've seen the movie Summertime with Katharine Hepburn you'll know who I'm talking about.

When I was in Rome last year we happened upon a decent little restaurant with sidewalk seating. It may or may not have been in RS' book, but we were hungry and didn't really care. The menu was purely in Italian and I didn't understand a single word of it. Eventually we just randomly pointed to two things on it and that was it. There was a bit of excitement and adventure to seeing what was going to come out. In the end, one was a meatball dish in some kind of lemon sauce and the other was a meat sauce pasta, both very good and reasonable priced. But the real reason why we were comfortable with having no clue of the menu and just randomly pointing, was that the prices were reasonable (there was not slash, "/" next to the price as if to indicate the price was "per pound" "per item", etc.) and not necessarily confusing and the place was casual enough (not "fine dining") that there was certainly a limit to how much damage could have been done as a result of our cluelessness.

Yes Norma the point n grunt food was outstanding...Ya oughta try it. Ya missed my point completely. You would think, at least I did, that this "trip report" page would be a place to share experiences (good and bad) and commiserate, but so far it's full of self righteous snobs. I've watched RS since he's been on PBS...seen every show ten times, I have four of his books, I carried and studied his phrase book on trains. It's taken me ten years to take our dream trip. We are only guilty of unreasonable expectations. This site is not a site of comrades or friends but more like a game of gotcha with snide remarks..."rolling my eyes", "this is laughable", or "you should not come to this forum and complain if you don't listen to the experts", yadda, yadda. Funny thing is, the only snobs we met in Europe were "Rick Steve" Americans who think they are so cool...but like I said before, after a few days we all look alike.
Ciao

Have to wonder why travelers do not learn at least the Italian for common menu items. If they do not want to learn, there are many menu readers in guide books, I think the Rick Steve even has some menu reader items in his guidebooks.
Since so many people travel with a smart phone there are language apps freely available.

The benefit to learning at least what one needs to know to order a meal and some common menu items also tends to change the way one is treated---in a positive way.

And as others have noted, staying away from restaurants near the main attractions or major plazas, generally do not offer the best food.

Everyone has their own ideas of what part food plays in their travel experience. For me, it's important, but not the main reason to travel. I alternate "skinny" and "splurge" days (more skinny than splurge), and I don't look for 4-star, upscale restaurants - I find great food at small, family-run or modestly priced white-tablecloth paces. I have accidentally spent a lot of money on a meal, but the accident was that it was late, blood sugar levels were out of whack, lots of places had already shut down for lunch. Several skinny days in a row followed.

I'm sorry the poster feels that everyone on this forum is a snob, because that's not true; and I don't think any of us are "experts", just enthusiastic amateurs.

Reading back through the thread, I see a fair amount of responders cheerfully poking fun at themselves for their own missteps so any objections may be less about phogenson's negative experience than how it was voiced? It's fine to share frustration over things that didn't go so well so others can learn from them. At the same time, I'm sure our friends across the pond get a little tired of all the nattering around scams and ripoffs in their countries, and any number of simple misunderstandings so often suspected and/or labeled as such?

Referencing Richard's earlier response, there's some sensitivity around one-time forum posters whose only contributions are long complaints. As phogenson said himself, with the exception of this single issue the rest of the trip was wonderful. It would have been nice to have heard about those experiences as well?