Is a backpack considered a personal item if it fits under the seat?

It doesn’t matter if it’s a backpack, duffel, or any other bag. The only thing that matters is whether it fits under the seat, and for some airlines, the dimensions of it. You would need to go to each airline’s website and look to see what the dimensions are for personal items. There are some airlines, like Delta, where the only qualification is that the item must fit under the seat. But others do have a size restriction, and some even a weight restrictions

Have you checked their websites? Airlines generally list the dimensions and weights for personal items. For example, here are the Aegean rules for economy and it depends on the type of fare you have booked.
https://en.aegeanair.com/plan/booking-info/fares-classes/economy-class/

Usually the personal item can be the dimensions of a laptop case and only be 7”-9” in depth. ( Aegean Airlines specifies the dimensions of “a thin laptop case” ). That requirement eliminates most shoulder bags or backpacks from fitting under a seat because they are simply too thick once they’re filled with personal belongings.

I use a backpack all the time as my personal item. You have to meet the size limits which means not filling it to the point where it exceeds the airline's dimensions. This summer I flew Turkish Air and their website said that personal items also had a weight limit (new for them) but no one weighed my backpack, though they often weigh the carryon.

A typical requirement for some of the airlines is 55x35x25 cm for the carry on bag and 45x35x20 cm for the personal item. And then a weight, like 8kg for the carry on. Be sure to look up each one. Sometimes they include the weight for both items together.

Go to the website of the airline you are using and conform to their written requirements and limitations.

Go to the website of the airline you are using and conform to their written requirements and limitations.

Underlining this advice, which is the only way to know.

A few months back I sat smiling at a Lufthansa gate as quite a few people with a "rules don't apply to me" attitude had their carryon gate checked because it either didn't fit in the sizer (sizer checks the personal item too) or it was over weight. One lady was given the option. Gate check the carryon or gate check the back pack she was trying to call a personal item. But both weren't going on the plane.

This year I saw similar on KLM, Wizz and Ryan flights.

Gate checking isn't always free. Wizz and Ryan were charging and I think they should have to pay the checked bag fee plus penalty. I like the idea of paying the gate agents a bounty on non-complying bags too.

And on the plane, the personal item hoes UNDER THE SEAT, until the door is closed or the plane is in the air. Then go looking in the overhead for a place to put it.

I use a backpack as a personal item regularly on planes. As everyone mentioned - check the allowable dimensions with your specific airline, The Ravenna day pack is a smaller pack and will work on most planes with exception of Lufthansa. Having said that - I want to comment on pack comfort.

A small pack that is flimsy in nature can ride the backs of most people comfortably by adjusting the straps. A bag that is more rigid in structure best fits a back based on personal torso length. I think the Ravenna pack can work on shorter people with shorter torsos. But, a taller person needs a longer pack. Ideally, the base of the pack should lay somewhere in the lumbar back area to be comfortable.

How to measure torso length. Feel the knob at the base of your neck. Then, identify your mid-lumbar to lower lumbar area. Take a tape measure. Roughly measure the distance between these two points 2-3 times. Take the average. Try to find a backpack with approximately the same length. Too short of a rigid bag will ride too high on your back to be comfortable. (This happened to me once. I desired a minimalist backpack and bought one based on volume and compartments alone. It held all my stuff just fine - but, I didn’t like the fit on my back. Now, I’m somewhat picky about backpack length. Note: this only applies to more rigid fabrics. Floppy backpacks can be adjusted to conform to backs.)

Sun-Baked in Florida you hit on the fact that there are interesting variations on this theme.

Some people "go back packing" some just need a container for the plane.

My Personal Item backpack is almost never on my back. It has a sleeve for my carryon handle. I just cared about cheap and the right size. To take it a bit further, I am tired of being hit by backpacks worn on planes, crowded terminals, restaurants, busses, trams, metro systems. Backpacks on your back are great for the woods and the mountains beyond that .......

I have another backpack i use for grocery shopping. It fits into a small bag that i hang on my belt. Thats how thin flimsy, light it is. Correct torso size? LOL, Straps aren't even padded. It just has to be convenient to carry (i take it with me almost every day in the event I buy something ..... bags cost $$$$ in Europe). I survive wearing it with 20lbs of groceries in it 3 days a week for about 15 minutes each time.

I use a daypack-style backpack as my personal item and it didn't fit under the seat of one of my Aegean flights in March. The amount of space varies depending on the design of the plane. Luckily it was a nonstop flight and I had checked my rolling suitcase so I stashed it overhead. As others have said, check the websites and get out a tape measure.

Mr. E,
Right-on. I have a variety of backpacks because I use them in different ways. Anything from maximum airplane underseat space as sole piece of luggage, city trekking, bird-watching, solo day hikes in woods, walking long corridors at business conventions, family-size. I need to take a pack count. After using various packs - I have learned what I particularly like and what works for different situations. Yes, torso length is something I consider. I found I can do longer packs 16” or longer. It’s the short ones that are stiffer and less than 16” that I steer clear of. Don’t fit well on my back.

I am tired of being hit by backpacks worn on planes, crowded terminals, restaurants, busses, trams, metro systems. Backpacks on your back are great for the woods and the mountains beyond that .......

Amen to that....on the Boston Airport shuttle bus, the guy sitting next to me rushed to put on his backpack. One of the compressions straps slashed me across the face less than an inch from my eye.

Other times I've been pushed to the side because people back up forgetting they have this protrusion on their backs.

I now push back.

Everyone seems to be making this complicated. Look at each airline you are flying and see what their maximum dimensions are for a personal item. Find the smallest one and stick with that. It should then fit all the other airlines you're flying.

There's a whole size range for backpacks from a small carrying-lunch-size to massive climbing-Denali-size. So when people refer to backpacks they need to be clearer on to what they're referring. Maybe there're regional or local distinctions people assume is a common usage, but they don't translate well, across the board. In this case, it's the size not the type of bag that makes it a personal item.

and then fly to several cities in Germany

What does your planned itinerary look like? If you're planning to fly between different cities in Germany, that is probably a bad idea. The train will be cheaper, probably faster, as well as more comfortable and no need to worry about luggage fees.

We will arrive at Frankfurt airport at 5:25 pm and go to Hamburg. We opted to fly because it's a short flight which will get us into our hotel at a reasonable hour. Otherwise, we'd have to stay a night in a hotel and then take the train the next morning which would effectively cause us to lose almost a half day. We are going to Berlin, Leipzig, and then back to Frankfurt to visit with relatives. When I researched the train schedules and fares, we decided to fly from Hamburg to Berlin, take a train to Leipzig and fly back to Frankfurt. While we'll be in Germany for 16 days, only 7 of them will be visiting those cities, so we wanted to spend less time on trains and more time in the cities. Of course, I might be shooting myself in the foot with those plans because it might take longer than expected to get to the various airports; I'm just hoping that that's not the case. But I guess we'll find out soon enough! I appreciate your suggestion and I do love to travel by train, but for this quick trip, we decided to minimize travel time.

When I begin planning my first stab calculates flight time plus 3 hours prior and 90 minutes post flight. For trains, train time plus 1 hour prior and 45 minutes post. Those are hotel door to hotel door. Flying still comes out better a lot of the time and part of the pre flight time is breakfast in the airport.

Of course, I might be shooting myself in the foot with those plans
because it might take longer than expected to get to the various
airports; I'm just hoping that that's not the case.

Sorry to be blunt, but yes you are. Massively.

we decided to fly from Hamburg to Berlin

and

but for this quick trip, we decided to minimize travel time.

are two statements that really don't go together. There are no direct flights between the cities so to fly from Hamburg to Berlin you need to change somewhere. Shortest route would be via Copenhagen with SAS but since you didn't mention them I assume you are looking at Lufthansa via Frankfurt. The fastest options I see take 3:15 airport to airport. Add 90 minutes for check in and security, one hour of total travel time to and from the airports and 15 minutes to get from your gate in Berlin to the airport station and the total travel time is 6 hours from city to city. Or you can take the train from Hamburg to Berlin, it takes 1 hour and 46 minutes from city centre to city centre. For Leipzig to Frankfurt the difference in travel time is less extreme, but you will still struggle to save time by flying.

So, have you decided to fly or to minimize travel time?

i have to agree with Badger. If you want to "save time" then flying between Hamburg and Berlin then Leipzig to Frankfurt is not the way to do it

Let' look at Leipzig to Frankfurt. It's a one hour flight and I'm sure that's what got you interested. But did you forget you have to be there two hours ahead and then travel between city and airport at both ends? You're looking at 4 hours+. The train, downtown to downtown, is just over 3 hours.

So when you look at this leg, and what Badger mentioned regarding Hamburg to Berlin, I don't see how your options will allow you to spend more time in the ciites?

I leave for Berlin this Thursday. I will spend six weeks around Germany and Austria. The only leg I considered flying was Vienna to Frankfurt. But in the end, the timing was so close I decided to stick with the train. Much easier, no security, no liquids rule, more comfortable, and for me, more enjoyable.

It's your decision.

I would generally rather fly than sit on a train, but I cant make the Hamburg to Berlin flight make sense. The Leipzig to Frankfurt flight is a bit more realistic.

PLANE
Depart hotel 2.75 hours prior to flight time.

1 Hour flight time
1 Hour post flight to next hotel

4.75 hours

TRAIN
Depart hotel 1 hour before train departure .... never been to that station before, dont see any need to cut it close.
3.5 Hour train time
45 minute post train to get taxi or public transportation or walk to Hotel

5:15 hours.

Sure you can shave a few minutes off the departure time, but then at best you are at the same as the flight time and so it comes down to do you prefer wandering an airport, eating breakfast, coffee, etc before sitting on a plane for an hour, or do you prefer sitting on a train for 3.5 hours?

For me, on this one, it would be the option with the best schedule if the rest of the trip were cheap. Otherwise I go with the train cause its cheaper. But still, dont like trains.

3.5 Hour train time

Except that the fastest trains between Leipzig and Frankfurt take 2 hours and 56 minutes, meaning that the total travel time in the above example is more or less identical. And you can get a train ticket for €14.90 if you buy it in advance.

So here’s the thing if your bag is oversize, you can come on forums like this and 400 people can tell you “I got away with it” but it’s still oversize.

So if the gate agent says too bad, a defense of “well, a bunch of people on the Rick Steves travel forum tell me they got away with it” has never worked I know that I have done it. I’m not perfect, but understand that past history is not a guarantee of future success in this instance.

I didn't know about this Forum when I did the itinerary for my trip. I only found it when I was ordering something from the RS Online
Store. Now I know better for future trips...and there will be one in the middle of the year, so I'll be back. In my defense, though,
we will be landing in Frankfurt on 1/31 at 5:45 pm. The flight to Hamburg leave the same place at 9:30 pm and gets us into Hamburg as 10:35 pm. The hotel is close to the airport. A train would have gotten us in after midnight,

I'll admit Hamburg to Berlin was a mistake: we leave Hamburg at 3:10, arrive in Stutgart at 4:25; leave there at 5:25 and arrive in Berlin at 6:40 pm, so 3 hours and 30 minutes versus the approximately two hours for the train. My bad.

Leipzig to Frankfurt is a one hour flight. And you are right, we have to get to the airport early which adds time. But this was a first for me and when I tried to look up train schedules, I guess I was too early because I kept getting messages that there were no trains for the particular route I asked about.

Anyway, I am locked into my schedule right now because the LH flights are non-refundable. (Even if I opted for refundable, the fees were ridiculous.) But I have gained a wealth of knowledge from the wonderful folk on this Forum, so I consider my less-than-perfect plan the tuition in the school of traveling. You can be sure that when we do Athens to Tuscany next Fall, I'll be back for tips and hints.

Thanks to all of you for your insights and suggestions.

Thanks, Carol, for your words of wisdom. I don't plan to expect to get away with anything, even if 400 before me did. If I have to check my carryon at the gate, I'll be happy to do so. We are flying Business class so there will be no problem coming across the ocean and going back; it's the puddle jumpers that I was worried about. Istanbul to Cappadocia; Athens to Frankfurt, and the three LH flights within Germany. Viking is handling all the flights except for the three in Germany, so I'm hoping that as BC customers, we won't be slapped with any charges for the flights that Viking is arranging. I couldn't get a definitive answer from yet...it seems it's too early and airlines may change flight times. Lord, I certainly hope that's not the case because January 20th is around the corner. At any rate, I've surrendered any worry. I'll pack my carry on so it won't weigh more than 12 kg and my backpack so it won't weigh more than 7 kg. If any of the airlines decides that the 12 kg weight limit includes both bags, then I'll deal with it. I wonder how long it will be before they start weighing the customers!

Frank, have a great trip!

I think your may be reading the carry-on restrictions wrong. I don't know any airline that allows a 12 kg carry on and a 7 kg personal item.

Lufthansa, Aegean and Eurowings have a maximum of 8 kg for your main carry on and no weight but smaller size limit for your personal item (backpack.)

Turkish is also 8 kg (2 bags for 16 kg in business class) and a 4 kg limit for your personal item.

Many airilines are known to check so expect to have to check your main carry on. If you are flying in business/first class they sometimes look the other way. That includes the internal flights.

Don't expect special treatment because you are on a Viking cruise. The gate agents don't really care who paid for your tickets.

If you want to find the carry on limits for each airline, just go to Google and search for "name of airline" carry on baggage. The webpages with this information will be the first result.

Okay, so I'm not losing my mind, I just rechecked. KLM has a combined carryon weight of up to 18 kg and Delta (for the return trip) has no weight allowance for carry ons. They both have the same size restrictions as everyone else. This is what Aegean says for business class: 1 carry-on bag up to 13kg and dimensions up to 56cm X 45cm X 25cm that can be stored in the overhead bin, and 1 personal item (women’s/men’s handbag or a thin laptop case) that must fit under the seat in front of you.

I am going to try to keep things light and stay at 8 kg so I won't have an issue with Lufthansa, but I figure that since Lufthansa and Eurowings allow one piece of checked luggage in addition to a carry on, I'm fine as long as I'm willing to check the luggage and hang around to retrieve it. So my only unknown here is Turkish Airlines and qué será, será.

Thanks for making me delve deeper into the whole issue. Worst case scenario, my 20" carryon is heavier than 8 kg and I'll have to check it, but at least it won't cost me anything and that's a relief.

Now I know better for future trips...and there will be one in the
middle of the year, so I'll be back. In my defense, though, we will be
landing in Frankfurt on 1/31 at 5:45 pm. The flight to Hamburg leave
the same place at 9:30 pm and gets us into Hamburg as 10:35 pm.

I have no problems with you flying from Frankfurt to Hamburg, and I can't see anyone else mentioning it either. If you're already at the airport it's not a terrible idea. If it was my trip I would have booked a flight from Athens to Hamburg instead, but as long as you're aware of the risks of self connecting it is certainly doable.

I'll admit Hamburg to Berlin was a mistake: we leave Hamburg at 3:10,
arrive in Stutgart at 4:25; leave there at 5:25 and arrive in Berlin
at 6:40 pm, so 3 hours and 30 minutes versus the approximately two
hours for the train. My bad.

Mistake is the understatement of the year. And it's not 3 hours and 30 minutes, it's over 6 hours. I would love to know what you were thinking when you decided that flying from Hamburg to Berlin via Stuttgart was a good idea and that it would save time compared to the train. Have you looked at a map of Germany and where those cities are in relation to each other?

Leipzig to Frankfurt is a one hour flight. And you are right, we have
to get to the airport early which adds time. But this was a first for
me and when I tried to look up train schedules, I guess I was too
early because I kept getting messages that there were no trains for
the particular route I asked about.

Being too early might have been a reason that you didn't see any trains.

Anyway, I am locked into my schedule right now because the LH flights
are non-refundable. (Even if I opted for refundable, the fees were
ridiculous.)

No, you're not. Just because you have made a stupid decision doesn't mean you have to be stubborn and stick to it. Even if you've bought the cheapest possible tickets, you can sometimes at least get the taxes and fees back if you cancel the tickets. And when looking at a random date during your trip next year, there are plenty of cheap train tickets available. Buy the tickets now and you can get a train ticket from Hamburg to Berlin for €14.90.

There are hourly non stop trains from Hamburg to Berlin as well as many trains that stop along the way, so no shortage of options. If it was my trip, I would not mind paying €14.90 extra to get to Berlin 4.5 hours earlier, get a more comfortable trip and not have to worry about luggage. Even if I'm not getting a single cent back from my flight tickets. It also saves you the cost of getting to and from the airports, which is at least a couple of euro on each end. In total, a small price to pay to get a half day extra in Berlin or Hamburg.

And how have you planned to travel to and from the airports? If you are considering using taxis to and from the airports, buying train tickets will save you a lot of money.

Thank you for taking the time to let me see the errors of my ways. Had I known about the Forum and the excellent advice I could get, believe me I would have asked before embarking on any kind of itinerary. I have time to look into the suggestions you made, and I appreciate them all. It's obvious that you are a well-seasoned traveler and equally obvious that I am not! As I said in a previous post, my Fall trip to Greece followed by a month in Italy will not be planned until I check with all the folk who've been there, done that, and can give me good sound advice.

By the way, the flight from Athens to Frankfurt was part of the Viking deal where they would fly us to Frankfurt and then within 30 days back to the States from Frankfurt. I would have flown directly to Hamburg, too; but then we would have had to return to the US from Hamburg and since we are spending the last 9 days with relatives in the Frankfurt area, that wouldn't work. We got free economy air which was credited toward our BC upgrade and for a few extra dollars, we could fly from Athens to Frankfurt and then home from there. I asked about Hamburg and was told what I mentioned previously.

That explains the self connecting in Frankfurt. Just make sure you have enough time, Frankfurt is one of the largest airports in Europe.

I have certainly made a bunch of mistakes. But hopefully I can help others not making similar mistakes. I hope you read the article I linked, I have the impression that you feel that you feel committed to the flights because of the money you've spent on it. You are not. Buy a couple of train tickets, if you don't you will regret it.

And I'd love to know how you're planning to travel to and from the airports. So many americans are obsessed with using taxis to and from airports, and that would be an additional expense.

Hey Badger,
Sometimes, taxis make sense. My family travels as a party of 3 persons. Sometimes, a single cab fare is about the same price as 3 train or metro fares. (Depends on location). So, taxis are still relevant.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

But my point is that if the OP plans to take taxis to and from the airports, that would be an additional cost. A taxi from central Hamburg to Hamburg airport and from Berlin airport to central Berlin is an additional €90. Then don't mention how many they are, but even three train tickets from central Hamburg to central Berlin only adds up to €44.70, which is far less than the taxi cost. And I'm pretty sure that two train tickets from Leipzig to Frankfurt will be cheaper than a taxi ride from central Leipzig to the airport.

Glassygal, I hope you have a wonderful time. The final decision on how and where you travel is up to you. As long as you're comfortable with it, that's all that matters.

I once considered taking a Viking cruise. But when I was told they no longer let passengers pillage and steal, I changed my mind. :)

Frank, I was never told that I couldn't pillage and steal on the Viking cruise. You'd think that would have to be a disclosure, right? Well, it's too late to cancel now.

Based on what was previously proffered by Badger, I did a little searching to see if, in fact, we would be spending a lot on transfers from airport to hotel. Turns out that the cost of a train to the hotel (we don't take taxis...even though we are American!) was $2-4 and a bus and train $4-7, so I think that's good. As I was looking I googled to see what the distance was from the airport in Berlin to our hotel and the hotel's name popped up with the daily rate. Well, the current rate for Feb. 2-5 was $60 less than what I had paid, so I cancelled that reservation and rebooked at the lower rate. So the issues Badger raised were very useful because (a) I got an education in trains vs planes and (b) I found out the best way to get to our two hotels, and (3) best of all, I saved $60 which can go toward one of the other many expenses we'll have. We are taking a train from Berlin to Leipzig and relatives will pick us up in Frankfurt, so we really only need transfers to the hotels in Hamburg and Berlin.

Going into such detail has made me feel much more confident about this trip and more knowledgeable about future trips. Thanks a bunch to everyone who's posted.