Münster to Mannheim scenic vs fast train? HELP please

Hi,

Not at all crazy, never a waste of time let alone a crazy idea seeing German country side by train. I've done this route numerous times, departing from Düsseldorf or Köln or Dortmund. to Frankfurt or vice versa.

I would suggest taking the direct EC train Münster Hbf to Mannheim Hbf, save yourself the hassle of changing trains if you're encumbered with luggage.

Once you get to Düssseldorf from Münster, you are no longer in Westphalia (Westfalen) but in the Rhineland as you proceed to Cologne , the train goes along the Rhine

Whew! That's one decision checked off our list. thank you Fred! This may sound silly, but is one side of the train better than the other for catching the views?

Actually, I think it is a great idea. It is only an extra 1 hour on the train, and it is little cheaper than using the ICE through Frankfurt. That route travels on high speed tracks in the median of the Autobahn between Cologne and Frankfurt. It is fast, but the biggest thrill is passing Porsches that are doing 150 kph on the Autobahn.

You can get 2 Super Sparpreis tickets now for 47.80 EUR, or splurge for 1st class for 67.80 EUR and get seat service for beer or wine. Note that you need to book the 11:03 IC train. The 2 earlier trains are EC trains going to Switzerland and they have no food or drink service.

As far as the seat side, it is tricky. You want to be on the left side of the train along the Rhine as that has the river view. When reserving seats, it is not always easy to figure out the train direction on line.

PS, Re Fred's post, the train does travel along the east bank of the Rhine between Duesseldorf and Cologne, but it is the industrial Rhine. Entering Cologne, you will cross the Rhine on the Hohenzollern Bridge and have a great view of Cologne Cathedral on the left hand side as you pull into the giant Cologne Hbf train shed. From then on, you will be on the west bank of the Rhine and the views will improve after you leave Bonn. The wow factor starts after you leave Koblenz and enter the Rhine gorge with all its castles. If you are on the 11:03, that will be between 1:50 pm and 2:30 pm, plenty of daylight.

It's not clear how much time you might have on the 29th to reach Mannheim, but if you have time to stopover somewhere, you could do just that.

The 9:03, 11:03 and 13:03 trains are all direct and all take 4:18 to reach Mannheim. But stopovers are possible. Let's say you're on the 9:03 out of Mannheim... you could get off in Cologne (10:50) and stow your bags at the Cologne Hbf station, then sightsee for either 2 or 4 hours; then at either 12:53 or 14:53, you board one of those subsequent trains. Your actual travel time is the same.

If you pre-purchase saver fare tickets, you will need to build your stopover into your ticket. Click on "add intermediate stops" where it says "Stopovers" and then enter your stopover town and the desired stopover length. Saver fares are available for tickets that employ stopovers just like non-stopover tickets.

Koblenz or Mainz might be good stopovers as well, depending on your level of interest in those places. But I think Cologne would likely work best. There's a multitude of things to see and do as well as places to eat and drink right in the immediate vicinity of the station.

The most scenic part of your train ride is south of Koblenz, as Sam indicated. But between Bonn and Linz you'll find good scenery too. In the warm months, the attractive hillsides and castles on this stretch are a big draw for the day cruise crowd.

Thank you so much Sam & Russ for such detailed info, I truly appreciate it! I had no idea you could factor stopovers into a ticket. Also, the info about which trains have beverage service and where the scenery is best is super helpful, so thank you!

We're actually landing at Dusseldorf on Nov 22 and taking a train straight to Cologne for a couple of nights before visiting friends in Hamm & Münster, but we might be able to visit Mainz as a stopover on our way to Mannheim (or as day trip prior to leaving Mannheim). We have 8 full days after my DH finishes work in Mannheim before we fly home from Munich. We're still researching our options and keeping fingers crossed that the Christmas markets will still run. Not sure how best to allocate those 8 days so we're all ears if you have strong preferences.

We visited the Sauerland (where my great-grandparents were from), as well as Cologne & Münster in July 2018, and again in Dec 2019, but Bavaria is all new to us. Any thoughts on which option is best:

Mannheim -->

Mannheim --> Würzburg --> Nuremberg --> Regensburg --> Munich ?

Or

Mannheim --> Stuttgart (auto museums) --> Ludwigsburg --> Augsburg --> Munich ?

or

travel further south to the German Alps?

Would appreciate your input as to which train routes are best, which towns to stay in vs. which to visit as day trips and which option you'd pick and why.

We really like architecture, history & good food. I'm a bit claustrophobic so we like smaller towns and markets that are more spread out. Love the grünkolh (with and without wurst) that we had at the Christmas markets in Münster & Essen in 2019!

Thank you again for taking the time to share your thoughts.

The northern route could also include Rick's fave, Rothenburg ob der Tauber. The Christmas market will be in full swing, and The Nightwatchman walking tour is still going Friday and Saturday night. Herr Baumgartner has had 30 years to hone his act to a well timed monologue with dead-pan German humor. Rothenburg is touristy, but in a good way. Plenty of things to do, places to stay and eat.

As you probably know, Nuremberg is the mother of all Christmas markets.

Of course, you could combine these with Stuttgart for DH to get his car fix, then it is only 2 1/2 hours train ride to Rothenburg with 2 changes. Then to Nuremberg with 1 change and it is a VGN ticket (20.30 EUR day ticket for 1 to 6 people). Then you decide on Augsburg, Regensburg, or Munich.

If you want Bavaria, your south route only has two out of five towns in Bavaria. On the other hand, that route is Kässpätzle country, since you mention those in your other thread. :-)

Rothenburg is touristy, but in a good way.

Nothing wrong with visiting Rothenburg, but I didn't find that touristy "in a good way" any more. I felt like I was in a German Disneyland.

As far as your original question goes, yes, I absolutely agree with the others: A 4 hr scenic train ride is much preferable to a 3 hr boring one.

We really like architecture, history & good food. ...we like smaller towns and markets that are more spread out."

There are several nice places near Stuttgart with the sort of things you are looking for.

I've never been to Esslingen's medieval Christmas market, but it gets a whole lot of praise. Esslingen has a lovely old-town zone and is worth a visit anyway, being that it's just 10 - 15 minutes from Stuttgart. With your preference for smaller places you could easily stay in more-attractive Esslingen and visit Stuttgart on a day trip.

I'm very fond of Christmas markets. But in fact a whole day or even half a day at any market may be overkill (or impossible due to weather conditions.) IMHO it's wisest to choose destinations based on other factors (Stuttgart's auto museums, for example.)

Like Esslingen, Tübingen is another smallish, very attractive city (less than 100K population) on the Neckar River that shouldn't be overlooked. It's a university town where you'll find some interesting sights and a good assortment of restaurants, and it's just 45 minutes from Esslingen by direct train.

Calw, a Black Forest town on the Nagold River about an hour from Stuttgart, has some really lovely old half-timbered buildings. It's part of a network of similar towns known as the German Half-Timbered House Road (Fachwerkstrasse)

Nuremberg is the most popular (and normally the most crowded) Christmas market in the country, many say. After many decades, N'berg's still triggers some nice memories. But then, it was my first market... It's probably not for claustrophobics.

A lot depends on how each city chooses to approach this year's experience. I've read that Mainz's market will be split up into 5 separate markets scattered around town - to enhance social distancing. Perhaps others will do the same.

Munich is just over 2 hours from Stuttgart by direct train. Have a look at Landshut as a nearby small-town option.

Sam & Anna: I truly appreciate your help and input.

We are very much torn about Rothenburg o d Tauber after reading a post Nigel wrote about Bad Wimpfen: https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/germany/ok-put-your-hand-up-who-suggested-bad-wimpfen

Anna: your "Disneyland" comment is exactly why I often have little to no interest in Rothenburg o d T. type towns where everyone is pretty much employed in the tourism industry, so thank you. Also, good point about the southern route only having two Bavarian towns. After having a bit of a panic attack in Cologne on our last trip, I'm torn between wanting to see certain places yet feeling the need to avoid claustrophobic situations (N'berg for example) ... the kässpätzle would more than compensate!

This forum post from 2016 about "visiting small scenic town rather than cities" also resonated with me: https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/germany/christmas-markets-in-bavaria ...

Thank you again, I appreciate your input.

Russ: I can't thank you enough for your input. I truly appreciate the time you took to share your thoughts & insight - esp. your helpful notes about Calw and the network of towns with half-timbered houses + how Mainz is splitting their market up ... super important for me since I suffer from claustrophobia (which is why we'll probably avoid N'berg). I also appreciate the train info ... I'm having the hardest time choosing which train routes are best. I want to maximize our best use of time, but don't want to miss out on scenic routes. The trains schedules aren't easy for me so your help is very much appreciated. I think I'm having a hard time since Mannheim is so close to Frankfort and since that's a bigger hub, most routes originate there ... if that makes sense. Anyhow, I appreciate your help.

Your helpful comments in this 2018 post are what got me started: https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/germany/munich-to-frankfurt-after-christmas ... so again, thank you.

My biggest problem is that I want to see it all, but only have 8 days.

I don't want my "Disneyland" remark to be misunderstood. It's not Disneyland in the sense that it's all fake. It's just a lot of tourists all flocking to the same place, just like they are all flocking to Neuschwanstein. You will probably hear more English and Japanese spoken in the streets of Rothenburg than German. And then you have these restaurants (like in Heidelberg too) where they will lead you with a tour group, and you will get mediocre and totally overpriced food because they know you will never be back anyway.

That's not to say you can't get mediocre food in other places too, but at least it's not going to be overpriced. :-)

Anna, I understand. Although I sadly don't speak German, I'm trying to learn so I appreciate & love hearing it spoken around me. And the food situation is huge for me as well ... I really want to make every meal count, so what you wrote is very helpful.

This is my dilemma: how to enjoy the best scenery, most interesting historic towns & sights + the best regional food in just 8 days, without having a claustrophobia-induced panic attack and without being surrounded by a bunch of annoying tourists all the time - of whom, I'm including myself, of course ;-) Not a small task and hence the feeling of being supremely overwhelmed. If you have some restaurant / food tips - I'm all ears.

"Interesting" is a very subjective thing, so don't put yourself under pressure. You'll have to pick and choose anyway, and there will be things that would be of interest to you that you just can't do in eight days. And take everything I say with a grain of salt. :-)

If you don't want to be surrounded by masses of tourists, you might try looking at other things than are hyped in those standard travel guides. Those, by default, feature Rothenburg, Neuschwanstein, Heidelberg and Munich, and maybe Nuremberg. Nothing wrong with visiting those places, but if you want to avoid the crowds, there are so many other wonderful things to see and do. As a starting point, my recommendation would be to have a look at the UNESCO list of world heritage sites. See what interests you along your route.

For restaurants, keep an eye out for those where the locals go. For instance in Heidelberg, don't go to those places where a tour guide leads their groups of fifty American or Japanese tourists, telling them this is an authentic student pub, and you don't see any student far and wide, and no student could even afford the prices. Go to where you see real students sitting. Ask "real" people where they would go for lunch, and get the "Mittagstisch" menu for good prices (that will not apply on weekends). Ask people where they would take their mom for some afternoon coffee and cake and enjoy the authentic café tradition.

Yes, you'll need to make some hard choices. I'll share a strategy I employ when I'm unsure... Pick a smallish area that seems loaded with good nearby options. Locate a town that could serve as a rail hub for those places - not necessarily the most interesting or lively town, but one with a central location. (Ideally, all your places lie within a local transit zone where day cheap day passes are available.) Then book a place that meets your basic needs near that town's station for the number of nights you think you need. Arrive at your base town with your prioritized options list in hand, but then play it by ear. Monday? Make sure the museum is open before setting out! Bad weather day? Hit the museums in the "big city." Save the dry-weather days for walking the old-town zones and the Christmas markets.

If you pick a good area, you'll run out of time before hitting all your options.

Nuremberg is an excellent train hub. But a good hub depends on your destinations, and sometimes a small town works just as well, or almost as well, or better. On separate occasions, smallish but well-positioned "Neustadt an der Weinstrasse" made for easy day trips to Bayreuth, Nuremberg, Amberg, Bad Windsheim, Iphofen and Würzburg on separate occasions. I wasn't, but I sure felt like I was the only foreign tourist to have ever set foot in this nice little place.

Near Stuttgart: I should suggest another small town for you, this one north of Stuttgart also on the Neckar River not far from Ludwigsburg (which you already mentioned.) Besigheim - an adorable old-world wine town - is a place I saw decades ago and now is on my bucket list for a return-trip.

Video in German - excellent, clearly-enunciated High German for your listening experience - but you don't need to understand it fully to get a grasp of what Besigheim is like, or to be impressed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1xqGvinerc

If you were staying in either Stuttgart or Esslingen, you'd find it easy to visit both Ludwigsburg and Besigheim on one day. From Stuttgart Hbf the same train route gets you to both places... 17 min's to Ludwigsburg, 13 min's further to Besigheim. A VVS group day ticket (buy at station) covers the entire VVS network for about €20.

Other VVS tickets: https://en.vvs.de/tickets/3-day-ticket/

The VVS transit authority covers Stuttgart, Esslingen, Ludwigsburg, Besigheim, and Zuffenhausen (Porsche) and Stuttgart Neckarpark (Mercedes.) Fare zone map:

https://www.vvs.de/download/Tarifzonenplan.pdf

Look at the Baden-Wuerttemberg ticket for trips further out. It covers local and regional trains throughout much of southwest Germany, €30/day/2 adults. Map of covered rail lines:

http://www.agilis.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Streckenkarte-BW-2013.jpg

Thank you Anna & Russ, you've both been very helpful and I appreciate your valuable input. You've given a lot of excellent ideas and thing to think about. Thank you both again. Truly.

Speaking as a local, where would I go if I just wanted a decent, no-frills lunch before moving on to more sightseeing or before getting back to work or to shopping? Of course I can just go into any of the many restaurants along the street, and chances are I'll get a good meal. Here's another idea that may seem weird, but it's a practical one that I use a lot when I am in town: Big department stores usually have a restaurant on one of their top floors which has a good, down-to-earth choice of food, often seasonal or regional, at a reasonable price, and fresh because they have a high turnover. It's usually self-serve (= no tips expected), and it's certainly not where you want to go when you are looking for fine dining, but it's not the worst place to go either. And you can be absolutely sure not to meet a single tourist. :-)

Hi,

On deciding to go Heidelberg or not: I would recommend that under certain circumstances.

First, if you really have the time for a leisurely day trip from Mannheim. I went to Heidelberg my first time to Germany in 1971., stayed at the DJH hostel swamped with Americans but that's another story, went back the second time for a day trip in the late 1990s from Stuttgart. It is worthy of your visit. It just may be crowded, inundated with international tourists but so what?

Second: Going to Heidelberg for historical reasons pertaining to the war. By 1945 Heidelberg was one of the few remaining undamaged cities from air bombing and US ground operations. If you want to see an undamaged city in this respect, then Heidelberg is worth it. There are more in North Germany, Celle, Flensburg, Lüneburg, (one of my top favourities) , Eutin/Holstein, Plön etc.

Might add that Heidelberg is within extremely easy reach from Mannheim. 15 minutes by train. So in case your husband is for some reason not interested in seeing Heidelberg, you could even easily do that as a day trip by yourself on that day he is working.

Big department stores usually have a restaurant on one of their top floors which has a good, down-to-earth choice of food, often seasonal or regional...

Excellent suggestion from Anna. Lots of food variety in these places on any given day - not only steam-table stuff but made-to-order as well and lots of fresh-food options. The "Galeria Kaufhof" department store chain has several locations with windows that give onto the town square or other cityscape (Mainz's has a great view of the cathedral, should you end up there.) All seem to have tidy, well-kept dining areas - nothing at all like the "Hometown Buffet" or "Golden Corral" you might find back home.

Anna & Russ: thank you for the tip about the department store dining rooms!

Interestingly, that reminds me of the popular basement cafeteria at the State Street Marshall Field's in downtown Chicago (now sadly, a Macy's). No view, but excellent food at reasonable prices, and very clean. My recollections are from over 15 years ago; I have no idea what it's like now. Then there's the store's famous "Walnut Room" restaurant, which at Christmas time always has an enormous Christmas tree. Dining there, after having looked at all the amazing Christmas window displays, is a yearly tradition with many families in Chicago - highly recommended if you're ever there in the weeks leading up to Christmas.

http://wendycitychicago.com/the-walnut-room-the-great-tree-at-marshall-fields/

Thanks again!

Thanks for the Chicago tips in return! Those pictures look beautiful and inviting. I love the wicker style chairs in the picture with the palm trees!

Yes, these department store restaurants or cafeterias are family friendly (they often have a special play area for children, with family tables surrounding it), and not only that: They were socially acceptable way before a woman for instance would go into any other restaurant by herself. It would feel awkward for a single woman to sit down in a restaurant all by herself 40 or 50 years ago; it was just something you didn't do. My mom for instance would not have gone into a regular restaurant by herself back then, but she did like to go into these department store restaurants when she went shopping.

Edit to add: Mind that they are open only as long as the store is open... which means they are closed on Sundays!