Please sign in to post.

Hotel non-communicative, do I cut my losses and book through booking.com?

Hello--- my thread title says it all. This is cross posted in Germany hotel reviews. It is also sort of a continuation of a thread I started last week.

The details: I email to reserve a room in Boppard. They reply within a couple of days and say, yes. we have a room available. When you want the room, please send your address. So I send it right away. Copied and pasted: Yes! I most definitely want to reserve this room! My address is:
XXXX Is there anything else you need to hold this reservation for me? Thank you so very much!" I sent this on March 22.

Then they ask, "is it possible for you and pay 50% from this price?"

So I say, "Yes! You are asking for XXX euro which is half, to hold the room?
Is that right?" This is March 23.

Their reply is simply: "It's ok"

So, I email again to confirm. "You are needing my credit card number to charge me for half of the
total amount, is that correct?"

And then I get this: " Dear Mrs. Freeman,
we don`t need the credit card number, the only one is the
half price for your pension with your name. Thanks and best regards "

So I have no idea what the heck they are asking for. I understand that they don't want my CC# but I don't know what it is that they DO require.

My last response to them is: "I am sorry, but I am not understanding what you would like."

Now it has been 4-5 days with NO communication whatsoever. I am inclined to head over to booking.com and reserve a room through them, and just forget about this first hotel. Am I obligated to this first place? I don't have a problem staying there, it is a fine place as far as I am concerned. They only have my address, email, and phone number. No credit card info.

I don't want to 'name and shame' this place.... I had a thread in the General Europe forum a week or so ago, about this. I am wondering if I should just say the heck with it and book through booking.com. Fast and easy.

Is that a good thing to do? Should I call the first hotel and see what is going on? I don't speak the language. Hopefully there would be someone who understands English.

Never has anything turned into such a mess. LOL. Thanks for your input.
Judy

Posted by
7054 posts

Judy,
As I said in a prior thread, you're making way too much of what should be a very simple task. Pick up the phone and call them and stop this aimless back and forth over e-mail (that would be my top choice), or just go on booking.com and make a simple reservation which will take all of 5 minutes. Booking a hotel room shouldn't be as difficult and time-consuming as this. It's not clear to me that they're actually demanding a 50% deposit to secure the room - if they were, they would give you clear instructions as to how to do it. For one thing, you'd need routing numbers (from them) to enable the transfer. It sounds like this booking is totally "up in the air" and I have no idea as to what the hotel's expectations are regarding your intentions. It's a simple phone call to clear this up.

Posted by
416 posts

Agnes you are right.... it IS way too much ado over basically nothing. But I am the sort of person who keeps their word. I said yes, I will take the room. And now it feels like I am slinking away and leaving them holding the bag so to speak. If I thought I wasn't going to get penalized in some way, I would book with booking.com and get this over with already. Good grief...

Posted by
7054 posts

I think before you go elsewhere to book a room, you should ensure that this hotel is not expecting you. It's not clear to me that they are or that they're not. I don't think what you're experiencing is at all atypical. This is very common when you're writing to mom and pop type places - there are some cultural differences and language nuances that make for some guessing games. I wouldn't stress over it. I've written to places in the past (I don't do it anymore) and I received some funny replies but I was able to make out enough to feel secure in my reservation. That's the only thing that's important - that you have in writing that they're holding a room for you on so and so dates. I try to stay away from booking rooms that require a deposit (unless it's a very special circumstance where a custom arrangement is required)...there are many choices out there that don't require a deposit, so I steer toward the lowest risk possible.

Posted by
2480 posts

Am I obligated to this first place?

No, you are in no way. In principle, you needn't to do anything, but to get things straight you should mail them that you aren't interested any more.

(I guess that they don't accept CCs - many small places don't - and simply don't speak enough English to state clearly which mode of prepayment they can offer).

Posted by
32355 posts

Judy,

This sounds like a language/communication issue. It's possible that the person you're dealing with doesn't have the ability to function well in English, especially with written communications. It sounds like they're asking for a deposit, but not with a credit card. I'd probably try the suggestion made in another reply to call them and try and sort this out. Do you know any German speakers in your area?

You could also try using Google Translate and send your questions in German, as that might provide enough of a translation to get this sorted. It's not perfect, but might work if you kept the dialogue simple.

Good luck!

Posted by
416 posts

@sla019... actually this isn't a small mom and pop type place at all, it is a larger hotel on the Rhine. At least that's the way it appears to me, on their website.

It's the non communication that gets me. You'd think that they would be eager to answer and fill up their hotel. I'm not angry but I do not like to be kept hanging, playing the guessing game.

And as Agnes pointed out, this idle back and forth was ridiculous. I do not disagree. In my daily life, I return customer's calls immediately. When someone doesn't return an inquiry from me, I don't like it. I don't like being left hanging. I wasn't too crazy about calling, I don't speak the language.

So the heck with it, I went to booking.com and reserved the last room they had (different hotel) in the location I wanted. Over and done with. Geez Louise.

Posted by
416 posts

And now I will email them and tell them that my plans have changed and I no longer require the room. Sigh...

This is not the way I normally operate, and I hate the thought of being double booked somewhere. It's the big wine festival in Boppard that weekend, and rooms are few and far between. We're there for 5 nights, 4 days. It should be fun.

Posted by
7072 posts

There's some misinformation on this thread.

German law supports the right of the innkeeper to collect from you if you reserve, whether you show, fail to show, or cancel. The innkeeper only yields this right if in fact he/she has a published cancellation policy to the contrary. So the question is, "Does s/he?"

Booking through booking.com specifies the cancellation policy for reservations, but it does not necessarily cancel the original reservation. I think you need to contact the innkeeper to clarify your intentions.

Posted by
416 posts

I was definitely going to do that. I knew that by booking elsewhere through booking.com, it didnt relieve me of the other hotel. I absolutely will email them the first place and tell them that my plans have changed.

Posted by
7054 posts

Judy,
As you wrote, yes, definitely make sure the first hotel knows you are no longer interested so that you're being fair to them. There is nothing wrong with being double booked when both policies allow a cancellation and you are genuinely making a good faith effort to pick the right choice for you but you just need some time to do that (no different than dating, I suppose, as long as both parties know you're not committed to either). Wasn't booking.com so much easier? You do need to read the small print though on every third party booking. There are folks out there who are not used to third party booking sites and make all sorts of assumptions in their favor which end up taking them by surprise. Every policy should be read before you click "accept". Even booking.com has listings that require full pre-payment or custom policies set by a particular establishment - but it also has lots of penalty-free choices where you use your card to hold the reservation and only pay upon checkout. I've had very good experiences with booking.com but then again, I read everything with a fine tooth comb and I know my risk levels and what I'm getting myself into. Best of luck on your trip!

Posted by
7072 posts

I thought perhaps you had used booking.com to book with the SAME innkeeper.

If innkeeper #1 doesn't want to cancel and has no published cancellation policy, you may need to cancel #2 and work with #1 somehow. If you aren't successful directly, you may be able to get some help from the Boppard TI office. Most all innkeepers cooperate with this office:

https://www.boppard-tourismus.de/20-1-Service.html

Posted by
416 posts

I did email the first place so we'll see what happens. I am on their website and so far I don't see a cancellation policy anywhere

Posted by
7054 posts

I guess I don't understand the comment about hotel # 1 potentially "not wanting to cancel"....they have no leverage over Judy whatsoever. They cannot compel her to take the room - she has not paid any deposit nor gotten anything in writing that said she owes them anything. No service has been provided. She inquired about a room and expressed interest, that's it. Cancellation policies must be in writing. I think this is way too much worry over nothing. People change their minds and cancel hotel rooms all the time, it's expected (obviously one should not potentially hurt a small establishment nilly-willy because they cannot react as nimbly as a large business hotel). But it's a different story if you booked a non-refundable reservation very close to the actual stay, but those are always secured with either a deposit (equal to the first night or more) or full payment covering the entire stay, else there is 0 leverage to keep the person from walking away.

Posted by
7072 posts

"I guess I don't understand the comment about hotel # 1 potentially "not wanting to cancel"....they have no leverage over Judy whatsoever. They cannot compel her to take the room ..."

This online source explains the law in German. Don't know if it's available in English but you can run it through your favorite translator.

If Judy has requested a reservation with an innkeeper that has no cancellation policy, she is not obligated to take the room, but she is obligated to pay for it, according to German law. Both parties must agree on any refund arrangement.

This is some thick stuff even for me to get through but it supports what I've stated:

...Dabei ist die Erklärung, ein Zimmer reservieren zu wollen, nicht etwa
als Aufforderung an den Hotelier zu verstehen, von sich aus ein
Angebot abzugeben. Vielmehr ist die Erklärung ihrerseits bereits ein
Angebot auf Abschluss eines Beherbergungsvertrages. Sobald die
Zimmerreservierung vom Beherbergungsbetrieb angenommen ist, liegt ein
verbindlicher Beherbergungsvertrag vor. Dies gilt selbst für den
Fall, das die Parteien noch nicht sofort über alle wesentlichen
Vertragsbestandteil e eine Vereinbarung getroffen haben. Denn die
vertragliche Einigung scheitert nicht daran, dass die Parteien bei
erkennbarem Willen zur vertraglichen Bindung einzelne Vertragspunkte
später bestimmen oder die Bestimmung dem Vertragspartner überlassen.

Der Beherbergungsvertrag ist nicht anders zu behandeln als jeder
andere Vertrag nach dem bürgerlichen Recht. Vorbehaltlich
anderslautender Vereinbarungen in Vertrag oder Allgemeinen
Geschäftsbedingungen (AGB) kann der Beherbergungsvertrag von keiner
Vertrags partei einseitig gelöst werden. Völlig unabhängig von
Zeitpunkt oder Gründen der Abbestellung besteht kein Recht auf
Stornierung" einer Buchung. Das bestellte und vom Hotel
bereitgehaltene Hotelzimmer ist entsprechend § 535 Absatz 2 BGB zu
bezahlen.

Posted by
7054 posts

Judy,
Just cancel the thing and see what the hotel says. I bet it's much ado over nothing. I cannot imagine that some German hotel owner will expect a payment from someone who has not given over their credit card info and changes their mind within 2 days...and in advance so that the hotel can give the room to someone else. There is no material loss to the hotel that's worth the price of the room (for several days). That would be the case if there was no-show or the hotel was booked very close to the stay date, and the hotel could not recoup such a loss. I realize it's important to respect other country's laws but I believe this minor problem can be worked out successfully person-to-person, assuming you can communicate effectively with the small language differences. I've never seen a hotel website that does not post a cancellation policy. A cancellation policy protects both parties by setting expectations clearly.

Posted by
416 posts

Ok... so how could they charge me if they dont have my crefit card info? I admit, grabbing another room was a knee jerk reaction. I am a quick tempered hothead actually. I just hide it well... lol. I practically begged them for a reply (ok.. a slight exaggeration) and when i got nothing back from them in almost a week, i panicked and booked a sure thing.

Maybe this is just the way things are done there but it ain't the way I do things.

Posted by
7072 posts

The innkeeper may be perfectly cooperative with your wishes, or may not. But it's not "nothing" if s/he is not. While the innkeeper might indeed have trouble collecting from abroad, the law supports his/her right to payment - the room price minus expenses not incurred as a result of failure to take the room (standard "penalty" is 80% of the reserved room price.)

I realize it's difficult for us to believe that room reservations are handled like any other contract in Germany. I was quite surprised to learn this as well. But it's a different country with different laws.

If you want to post or pm me hotel #1 website, I will look over the German language pages to see whether there's a cancellation policy.

Posted by
7054 posts

I believe that there are different ways of doing reservations because I've dealt with moms and pops type places before, including overseas. I don't think that anything that happened here is abnormal - dealing with the way other people do things or the way they communicate is a fact of life and some patience should be exercised. But a penalty in this case would be very hard to enforce unless you appeal to someone's sense of guilt. I wouldn't worry about things that may not come to pass...it's a waste of energy. First thing is first, and that's to cancel the reservation and await a response before worrying about worst case scenarios. I would not let up unless I received a written confirmation on their end of your intent to cancel.

Posted by
7072 posts

"Ok... so how could they charge me if they dont have my crefit card info?"

An innkeeper determined to assert his right to payment can have a legal judgment issued against you. If you sent your credit card info, he may attempt to charge it even though he didn't accept it in the first place. Or you may just get nasty legal notices in the mail and they'll never get paid.

Posted by
416 posts

I definitely did not send my cc number and i e-mailed and said that my plans have changed and that i no longer require the room. Lets see if that motivates him/her to finally reply.

Posted by
2480 posts

Der Beherbergungsvertrag ist nicht anders zu behandeln als jeder
andere Vertrag nach dem bürgerlichen Recht.

Ok, and a »Beherbergungsvertrag« is in force iff both parties have agreed about conditions, which did't happen in Judy's case since the hotel didn't confirm the reservations and its conditions explicitely and since no agreement about the mode of prepayment was achieved. The inn keeper would run into problems if s/he tried to push through a claim based on those facts before a German court. Don't worry.

Posted by
7072 posts

sla... your interpretation of this...?

Sobald die Zimmerreservierung vom Beherbergungsbetrieb angenommen ist,
liegt ein verbindlicher Beherbergungsvertrag vor. Dies gilt selbst für
den Fall, das die Parteien noch nicht sofort über alle wesentlichen
Vertragsbestandteil e eine Vereinbarung getroffen haben.

Posted by
2981 posts

Ok, Judy emailed that her plans changed. She never gave a cc number. A reservation was never made. It was finally offered, but not accepted. And she wrote her plans changed.

Question:
Who here really believes that this place is going to sue Judy for not showing up for the room that was never reserved?

I don't recall seeing so much ado about nothing. Jeez Louise and Holy Moley.

Paul

Posted by
14980 posts

Hi,

If I were confronted with this problem, I'd call them up, no use talking communicating to them in English. It's not working. Their English is being translated from the German. I would/could talk to them directly by phone in their language, I think that would settle everything. .

Posted by
14980 posts

I would not be surprised if the hotel believes it is in the legal right. That last paragraph indicates that.

Posted by
2480 posts

sla... your interpretation of this...?

Sobald die Zimmerreservierung vom Beherbergungsbetrieb angenommen ist,
liegt ein verbindlicher Beherbergungsvertrag vor. Dies gilt selbst für
den Fall, das die Parteien noch nicht sofort über alle wesentlichen
Vertragsbestandteil e eine Vereinbarung getroffen haben.

Ok - what is "angenommen"? Accepting a booking inquiry presupposes a reply from the hotel that states explictly something like "we confirm your booking as follows: [date, price, services included, e.g. breakfast, amount of additional visitor's tax if appicable, etc.]. The contract is based on the terms and conditions attached to this confirmation". The terms and condicions have to be included in the email or at least made accessible to the customer for download, .i.e., s/he must be able to save the text on his/her computer. As far as I understand the whole thing, the OP has never received such a letter of confirmation.

Besides, the term "cancellation policy" comes from the world of chaine hotels. A normal familiy-run hotel has no such "policy". Personally, if my plans have chainged, I simply phone the hotel the day before and tell them that I couldn't come. I have never had any problem doing so. No innkeeper would take the risk to sue you for fulfillment of a contract the status of which is doubtful at least. He will loose, say, €80 if he cannot rent out the room otherwise (given that there is some event in B. as described by the OP, he probably can). But if his charge will be rejected by the regional court (Amtsgericht, which , btw, is by non means bound to concur with the views of the Deutsche Hotel- und Gaststättenverband quoted by you) his loss will be €1000+. Let's not dramatize. What happened to the OP happens all day, and I'd be surprised if the hotel made a claim at all. Apparently, they have a "no deposit, no reservation" policy. Since the deposit hasn't be made they simply will ignore the reservation request.

Posted by
2981 posts

I'd email and say No Thank You for the offer and forget about it. Anything else is overkill and a waste of the OP's time and effort.

Posted by
7072 posts

sla... For Judy's sake, I certainly hope the innkeeper is inclined to respond just as your innkeepers have done in the past - or that s/he is intimidated by the chance of failure in court.

It is absolutely customary to receive the kind of confirmation that you describe. However, what constitutes acceptance where there may be a language barrier?? Judy's account leads me to think a contract (in the German sense) may be in effect. She requested a reservation. The innkeeper responded in the affirmative with "yes." (acceptance/confirmation) Judy was then asked to send her address (reconfirming that she wanted the room.)

The details: I email to reserve a room in Boppard. They reply
within a couple of days and say, yes.
we have a room available. When
you want the room, please send your address. So I send it right away.

I can easily understand it if the innkeeper believes there was a contract at this point.

OTOH it's now 2017, and the entire practice of renting rooms via computer has become very "Americanized" - it's easy to see how "gebucht ist gebucht" may have lost its hold among innkeepers, even if the law still supports them.

Posted by
2981 posts

I can't believe this is still being dissected. Court? For a room that may, may not have been booked for September, here in April. Serious? Can't be.

Posted by
2981 posts

I've never heard that in Germany, once you MAY have accepted an offer, or even if you did accept and make a reservation, you are not allowed to cancel, even 5 months in advance. Really? We've spent over 100 nights in Germany and Austria, all booked via email direct with the Gasthof, Pension, whatever. Yup, we've even had to cancel a few. They didn't come and take our money, our car or our house.

Posted by
416 posts

Lol they can have our car. I would even pay them to take it.

Posted by
7072 posts

"We've spent over 100 nights in Germany and Austria, all booked via email direct with the Gasthof, Pension, whatever. Yup, we've even had to cancel a few. They didn't come and take our money, our car or our house. "

I imagine it's very, very difficult to recover from foreigners.

If they do not have a cancellation policy of their own, innkeepers have legal justification to pursue action against you if you cancel without paying. But they have no obligation to do that, and I imagine that for most of them, it's far more trouble than it's worth.

Maybe your cancellation met the terms of the innkeeper's cancellation policy. If they didn't have one, I imagine they felt it wasn't worth pursuing if you had booked for just a night or two. Reserving longer periods means the owner incurs a greater loss, and the response might be different.

One of the reasons that it's possible to just email or call up a private B&B owner in Germany and reserve without a deposit is the German tradition (backed by German law) of keeping one's word in such matters. (Reservation = promise to pay, promises are kept, so no deposit is needed.)

I often pre-book private places via email, but not without first making an inquiry into availability. An "unverbindliche Anfrage" (unbinding inquiry) option is frequently a feature of German hotel/inn websites - they have a special page for making an unbinding inquiry. This reassures the potential guest that s/he is not committing to a contract. A reservation page is something altogether different and binds the guest either to the innkeeper's policy - or to a commitment to pay.

Posted by
2981 posts

Russ, Judy is giving 5 months cancellation notice. What could be the problem?

The very few times we needed to cancel, we had replies that basically said sorry to hear and hopefully you'll stay with us in the future.

Posted by
416 posts

So far I have had no reply. The email I sent was a reply to the exchange that I outlined in my original post. (The email exchange that they are not responding to anyway) I dont want to bombard them with daily emails until they reply.... I may send a second (stand alone) email repeating what I said in my first. That is, my plans have changed and I no longer require the room. Thank you and good day. Something along those lines. Good Lord the drama. Lol.

Posted by
7072 posts

"Russ, Judy is giving 5 months cancellation notice. What could be the problem?"

Paul: It's a small world these days, and we often think we have it by the tail. I engage in the same sort of thinking. It is natural to think that things work abroad as they do at home. But cultures and legal systems can be different in ways you might never, ever suspect. For us, no deposit = nothing to lose = no agreement/contract. But in fact, any reservation, in the absence of a specific cancellation agreement, obligates the guest to pay - period. I'm not making this stuff up, and I am not arguing in its favor - it's just the law on the books. The following responds to your question and was penned by a lawyer working for DEHOGA, the German Hotel Association. It's on their website. It explicitly states that neither party can change the reservation/contract on his own, and that the timing of the the customer's cancellation notice and the reasons behind this notice are completely irrelevant.

"Vorbehaltlich anders lautender Vereinbarungen im geschlossenen Vertrag oder den Allgemeinen Geschäftsbedingungen (AGB) kann der Beherbergungsvertrag von keiner Vertragspartei einseitig gelöst, also gekündigt werden. Völlig unabhängig von Zeitpunkt oder Gründen der Abbestellung besteht kein Recht auf Stornierung einer Buchung."

Source: http://www.dehoga-bundesverband.de/branchenthemen/recht-aktuell/detail/news/vertragsrecht-wenn-der-gast-absagt/?tx_news_pi1%5Bcontroller%5D=News&tx_news_pi1%5Baction%5D=detail&cHash=f9982be2c1583fcd2eb5932f27846d7e

If the innkeeper agrees to allow cancellation without payment or to provide a refund, none of this matters.

Posted by
9223 posts

Sent you a message. I can easily help you clear this up.

Posted by
33861 posts

Perhaps they did reply but the reply ended up in the spam folder?

Posted by
10633 posts

Yeah Jo to the rescue. Do you know that this woman once found a little girl's stuffed animal at the Frankfurt Airport Lost and Found, reuniting a little girl with her beloved Teddy. Child had transited through FF and frantic, desperate mom wrote the Helpline, as the Forum was called back then. Jo found this stuffed family member and reunited child and creature.
So this hotel will be a piece of cake.

Posted by
1530 posts

I wish there was a "like" button. I'd like Jo!!!!

Posted by
7072 posts

I really hope you'll have time later to share the outcome and how you got there, Judy. People have been stuck where you are before and they'll be stuck there again.

Posted by
1528 posts

All of this is why I use HRS.com to make my reservations when possible. I suspect Booking.com is similar.

I know up front: whether a room is available, if prepayment is required, if a credit card is necessary to hold the room and what are the terms for cancellation. All of this is coupled with information about location, ratings, services, etc.

I am sure folks have good results contacting hotels directly but I just find a hotel reservation service easier.

Posted by
416 posts

Quote: I really hope you'll have time later to share the outcome and how you got there, Judy.

OK.. the outcome. Let me first start by saying that Ms. Jo is a ROCKSTAR and she did not just help, she actually called the hotel in question and spoke to them in German. Something I could not do... (YES I could call but NO I can not speak German) So, I didn't get myself there, Ms. Jo did.

So anyway... when she called, they told her that they did not have a reservation showing for me. It is unclear if they ever did have one, or if they deleted me out of their system after receiving my "I am cancelling" email. If the former, I guess I'm glad I found another hotel. All this drama and they didn't even have a room held for me at all... I was quite uneasy with this place, as I honestly didn't know if I had a room or not. What if I would have shown up and had them say that there's 'no room at the inn.' For whatever reason, they just ain't that great with the emails.

If the latter, they didn't even confirm my cancellation by return email. Not too cool.

So this chapter ends and I thank everybody involved but none more than our resident rock star, Ms. Jo. Seriously. Thank you! And the funniest thing of all is, I am kinda sorry that I'm not staying at the original hotel. It just looked like we would really enjoy it.

Posted by
1878 posts

Great job Ms. Jo!

I think there are gotchas in Germany, for sure. In 2006 when we reserved in Munich at a hotel in Rick's book, I failed to ask about cancellation policy. When I had already confirmed the booking, I circled back on the cancellation policy. They informed me that if we cancelled (no matter when), we still had to pay for 100% of the stay. Nice cancellation policy. My fault for not asking up front. Also had a weird thing in Cesky Krumlov in 2011, and in Vienna in 2006 where they demanded payment up front, in check in. No mention of this when we made the reservation.

Posted by
9436 posts

You're amazing Jo. Big cheers for you!

Posted by
14980 posts

In 2013 during the trip that had gone into its eighth day, I got a phone call of a dire family emergency. Luckily, I was in Munich. First thing was to secure a flight back to SFO within the day or two. Then I had to cancel the week long stay I had reserved at the Pension in Berlin that was coming up in a week and half. That reservation was made by a phone call in March, then confirmed by my e-mail sent to them, and now it was the last week in June.

In Germany I never ask the small hotels/Pensionen I've stayed/stay at what their cancellation policy is. I called the proprietor from a phone booth in Munich, told her I would not be coming to Berlin because of the family emergency, and, regretfully, had to cancel my reservation at the Pension. She understood completely, and that was that. No mention was made of any payment from me to them regarding this cancellation. The topic of the Pension's cancellation policy was not even brought up.

Posted by
7072 posts

Very glad to hear you and Jo sorted all that out, Judy.

In 2006 when we reserved in Munich at a hotel in Rick's book, I failed
to ask about cancellation policy... They informed me that if we
cancelled (no matter when), we still had to pay for 100% of the stay.
Nice cancellation policy. My fault for not asking up front.

I've probably come across half a dozen cases like VS's on this forum alone (not a lot really as I'm quite the old-timer here.) But yes, booking apartments and rooms directly requires attention to this issue.

I don't think it's the fault of the innocent traveler, VS; at home, a 100% penalty for canceling is unthinkable, especially if it's well in advance. OTOH, it's not like innkeepers should be responsible for explaining German law, either...

What I honestly do not get is why the supposed guidebook and online-guide authorities fail to address this critical legal/cultural difference. Germany was like this 40-50 years ago when Let's Go, Frommers, and Rick Steves first hit the bookstore shelves.

Posted by
10633 posts

Laura--it seems a lot of the posts are missing between the OP and finding lambie. Did you notice?

Posted by
2480 posts

OTOH, it's not like innkeepers should be responsible for explaining German law, either...

Let's be a bit more accurate: it's not a German law you are referring to, it's rather a legal interpretation of the overall legislation on contracting. And local customs differ from that legislation more than often - in many places it is a long standing tradition that a booking may be cancelled free of charge on day in advance, some times even as late as 6pm same day. The local chamber of commerce can provide details. Moreover, pragmatically, an overseas customer will be always on the »safe« side. If s/he doesn't show up, the hotel, at least if it doesn't belong to a big chaine, has no means to push through it's claims; this is true even for many EU countries. Let google translate the following quote from an advice of the Austrain hotel chamber to its membership to demand a deposit or a CC number from foreign clients:

"Eine Klage ist ohnehin nur aussichtsreich, wenn von einem Gast zumindest der genaue Name bzw. der genaue Firmawortlaut sowie die exakte Anschrift bekannt sind. Aber selbst dann stößt eine Klage insbesondere im Ausland sehr oft auf faktische Schwierigkeiten: Grundsätzlich ist nämlich zumindest bei Privatbuchungen das Gericht am Wohnsitz des Gastes (Konsumentengerichtsstand) zuständig. Damit ist eine Klage zumindest innerhalb der EU zwar möglich, scheitert aber sehr oft an faktischen Hürden wie relativ hohen Gerichtskosten bzw. Nebenkosten durch Einschaltung eines ausländischen Rechtsanwalts."

Posted by
7072 posts

"Let's be a bit more accurate: it's not a German law you are referring to, it's rather a legal interpretation of the overall legislation on contracting."

A vast difference I imagine, but without a single college class in Legalese on my transcript, I'm condemned to a life of inaccuracy, I suppose.

"...local customs differ from that legislation..."

Yes, I think we established that innkeepers are not bound to policies that exercise their full legal contract rights. They can exercise their full rights, or they can individually (or as a community) choose their own approaches. No innkeeper is forced to proceed against "deadbeat tourists" - if they were, there'd be a much bigger problem for tourists than there seems to be now.

"If s/he doesn't show up, the hotel, at least if it doesn't belong to a big chaine, HAS NO MEANS to push through it's claims..."

That's too absolutist in light of your quote, which speaks to the limited chances of an innkeeper actually collecting, of high costs and foreign legal issues. Not 100% insurmountable. It was hurdles like these that I had in mind when I said that an individual "may just get nasty legal notices in the mail and the hotel "will never get paid." Landlords in the USA face similar troubles all the time - it's usually way too expensive and legally tricky to collect on a deadbeat tenant. But many DO assert their right to proceed anyway, and sometimes succeed.

But unlike the deadbeat tenant, the American (or other nationality) tourist DOESN'T KNOW he's acting like a deadbeat when he cancels a room in Germany. Therein lies the problem. Travelers like Judy get what look like unreasonable demands from some small-time innkeeper, and they're baffled because they don't understand German law (or whatever you want to call it.) The tourist has no idea that a cancellation might be the same as breaking a contract in the innkeeper's eyes, or that the innkeeper has a perfect right to make this demand. And that's why Germany guidebooks ought to write about this issue - just like they do other cultural and legal matters - it's their job to help tourists understand the culture and to avoid such situations.

Posted by
14980 posts

"...don't understand German law (or what ever you want to call it)" If it's not exactly German law, I would call it "deutsches Verhaltenswesen."

Posted by
7072 posts

"I would call it 'deutsches Verhaltenswesen.'" Except it's not an arbitrary German practice... the practice of collecting lodging fees for cancellations has its roots in contract law.

Posted by
14980 posts

"kann...von keiner Vertragspartei einseitig gelöst, also gekündigt werden." That explains it. IMO it is not the obligation of the innkeeper/proprietor in Germany to explain the cancellation policy of the establishment.

Posted by
1878 posts

I'm not following all of the legal discussion, but my general principle is be aware of local norms. In Germany, cancellation policies can be pretty strict. All of the places I noted, the proprietors were from other places in central Europe (which would naturally be the case in Czech Republic). I am not sure if that factored into my experience, small sample size after all. (I don't understand why guide books don't note cancellation policies that are crazy by U.S. standards either, and if I were an author I would not list a place with a draconian cancellation policy). One more reason to use a booking site like booking.com, the cancellation policy is always explicit. I would prefer to book direct and give the hotel owner more profit, but when they don't respond for a couple of days, and when they don't state cancellation policy as requested, it drives me to use services like booking.com.