Help With our Itinerary

A lot of this depends on your son'e logistics. Does he still have to work on Thursday, your arrival day? Can you stay at his place, or is there no room at the inn? Can you get RailandFly tickets through the airline you are using?

Asking this because you could go from the airport direct to Freiburg, but the walk-up price is 72 EUR pp, and with a RailandFly ticket it is just about 30 EUR pp. But if you plan to get together were your son that night, you can buy advance tickets now for 20 EUR per person on Friday.

Going to Burg Eltz can be easy, but if you go by train, it is about a 1 hour hike from Moselkern train station. If the weather is unpleasant, I would not think of it. The second half of the hike is a dirt path through the forest and uphill all the way. Adding in a boat ride complicates things. Boats are a lot slower than trains. Maybe one of the other many castles along the Rhine would be better logistically.

If you had a car for a couple of days, it would be easier to get to Burg Eltz as you come in by road from above and it is a short walk to the castle from the parking lot. For boat rides on the Rhine, you can park near one of the departure docks along the river, like in Bingen, cruise down the river, and return to your car on the train.

Anyway, looks like a good trip if you just iron out the itinerary a bit more.

Hi Sam
Yes,my son is working Thursday , and we need a day to decompress anyway!
We were thinking to get a Rail Pass since we would be taking the train everywhere. I need to find out if all the little trains in the Black Forest are covered by that pass. If anyone knows the answer, that would be helpful.

Hi, Cathy. Welcome to the forum and congratulations on going to Germany! You're going to love it. You'll find a lot of helpful people here on the forum (and a grump or two who have good info to share but sometimes in rather blunt ways).

Germany has many similar-named towns/cities, so you have to be watch your spelling when doing research (and buying train tickets!). Since you mentioned the Black Forest, I assume you want to go to Freiburg (in Breisgau), a large university city on the western edge of the Black Forest, not Freiberg (am Neckar), a small city just north of Stuttgart and somewhat northeast of the Black Forest but closer to Nürnberg/Nuremberg. The difference in endings exists because, in German, "berg" = mountain and "burg" = castle.

I don't have a lot of familiarity with the Frankfurt area, including the Rhine and the Mosel Rivers, so I will leave it to others to offer suggestions there. I think most of Day 5 will be lost to travel, by the time you get to the train station, catch the train, arrive in Nuremberg, leave the train station, find your hotel, and get settled. That might make a trip to Bamberg difficult to fit into your schedule. Berlin is awesome -- a little bit of an outlier to the north relative to the rest of your itinerary, but doable.

In the Black Forest, there is a card called the KONUS Card that allows for free travel on trains/buses in the Black Forest, but you have to lodge/stay in certain towns. Sadly, Freiburg is not one of them. The KONUS Card English flyer currently linked on the Black Forest tourism website is here and includes a list of towns where it is offered. The Baden-Würtemmberg-Ticket is a regional day ticket that allows for discounted travel all day on Saturday/Sunday and after 9 am on weekdays for travel within Baden-Würtemmberg (which includes all of the Black Forest) on "local and regional services." One person travels for 24 euro (all day) in 2nd class, and each additional passenger travels for 6 euro up to 4 additional travelers. I would think that plus point-to-point tickets for your other trips would likely be cheaper than a Rail Pass.

Hi,

This itinerary is doable by train if you drop Nürnberg.

How are you getting from Berlin Hbf to Marburg an der Lahn, a very nice place, good university town , more famous than Gießen . I suggest changing in Hannover Hbf. Take the early morning departure. Drop Burg Eltz, stay in Bad Nauheim.

I think in reference geographically you mean Freiburg im Breisgau, since that is the famous university town in the area. If so, drop Nürnberg.

Hi,

This is based on your dropping Nürnberg, which makes your itinerary even more doable, would certainly be no problem for me doing it, ie by squeezing out more time using the night train option. Spend the day visiting Freiburg im Breisgau. Towards the end of the day, take regional train from Freiburg to Offenburg, (since you are so close to Offenburg), where at 2330 the night train to Berlin departs.

This way saves you over 6 hrs the next morning going to Berlin. The night train option from Offenburg to Berlin Hbf....very doable. On the night train you arrive ca 0730 instead of after 1400 or so. I've arrived in Berlin Hbf that early, ca 0800 off a night train from Munich,...kind of refreshing. It was at end of May.

I usually travel on a pretty fixed itinerary, so I buy Saver tickets several months in advance and travel cheaply. These are nonrefundable, except if you pay a 19 EUR fee before your departure date. You can do that too, as your major trips seem fixed. Frankfurt to Freiburg(Breisgau) to Nuremberg to Berlin can all be done and you will pay about 20 EUR per person, and Berlin to Marburg(Lahn) is 25 EUR per person. After that you will travel on regional trains, so can use special tickets previously mentioned. So that comes to 170 EUR total for that portion of the trip. A German Rail Pass to cover those 4 trips would cost 314 EUR for the 2 of you. You have more flexibility with the GRP, but you are paying a good price for that flexibility.

After you get to Marburg, the rest of the trip seems still open, but you are then traveling in a relatively small area, and using regional trains that have day passes. So I will map out a sample itinerary that will hit your wish list.

Sunday late afternoon, travel from Marburg to Bingen(Rhein) Stadt with a Happy Weekend Ticket costing 50 EUR for 2, Monday take the 9:30 K-D ship from Bingen to St Goar and see the Rhine Gorge. At St Goar, you can visit Rheinfels Castle above the town.

Tuesday, weather co-operating, travel from St Goar to Moselkern at 9;00 using a Rheinland-Pfalz ticket at 29 EUR for 2. That will get you to Moselkern by 11:00, then hike to the castle and spend about 3 hours, there is a restaurant there for lunch, then hike back to Moselkern where you can get a train to Mainz for your last night. Trains from Moselkern are at 1 past the hour and it is 2 to 3 hours depending on connections. All on that single 29 EUR ticket. Next morning, it is a local transit ticket to go the airport in about 25 minutes by train. Trains are every 15 minutes or less.

Info and schedules and Saver ticket options are at:
https://www.bahn.com/en/view/index.shtml

Info on regional day passes is at:
https://www.bahn.com/en/view/offers/regional/index.shtml?dbkanal_007=L04_S02_D002_KIN0060_ST-REGIONALE-ANGEBOTE_LZ01

Welcome to the forum.

The Tripadvisor responses I read were not especially helpful, IMHO.
Before we get into the weeds about tickets etc. here are some comments about your destinations.

Berlin is a great city but also a long way to go for only 3 nights (which is only 2.5 days) so I would go with 4-5 nights.

Freiburg is a nice city (though it's really outside the Black Forest - and there are many similar good choices.)

The Black Forest is a nice place to visit as well. However, you should know that with its half-timbered buildings and pleasant natural scenery, the BF is not unlike other places - there are lots of Black-Forest-like places in Germany - and it is extremely far from Berlin. Also, one of the Black Forest's more scenic rail way routes - the Hells Valley route from Freiburg east to Titisee and Donauseschingen - will be closed due to construction and the area inaccessible except by bus.

There are some lovely old-world towns much closer to Giessen which your son may be unaware of (see examples below.)

Büdingen:
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/120714201.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/B%C3%BCdingen-Stadtmauer.04.JPG

Hannoversch Münden: http://www.hann.muenden-tourismus.de/fileadmin/Mediendatenbank/PDF/Fremdsprachen_Flyer/english-complete-hannmuenden.pdf

Limburg:
http://file2.npage.de/013536/02/bilder/altstadt-limburg.jpg
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3804/12321750494_240d368887_k.jpg

Miltenberg:
https://www.travelworldonline.de/traveller/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Fachwerkgasse-mit-Schloss-Miltenberg.jpg

These and other owns on the "German Framework Road" can be found on this map.

Nuremberg and Bamberg are really interesting and attractive Bavarian destinations that outclass Freiburg by a good margin IMO. The OTHER towns in the neighborhood make the area even more compelling:

Iphofen
Marktbreit
Bad Windsheim
Würzburg

You should consider a 4+-night stay in the Nuremberg/Bamberg area as well, IMO.

And the Middle Rhine Valley is really indispensible - especially if you are interested in a river float! Marksburg Castle and Burg Eltz are both worthwhile castles. This should not be a day trip but a 2-3 night stay if possible - just too many places to see, otherwise.

That's right, Lubitsch. The content in your post was similar but gift-wrapped ala Lubitsch... after the whaddaya-expect-to-find-in-the-BF, gold-in-the-brooks line, it was unclear to me whether the OP actually got to your content.

Berlin is a great city but also a long way to go for only 3 nights (which is only 2.5 days) so I would go with 4-5 nights.

I fail to see why 3 1/2 hours on an ICE train makes it too far to go to spend 2 1/2 days in Berlin. Is there some formula as to how long you have to stay based on travel time? I drive 4 hours to Chicago for 1 1/2 days all the time. If the OP wants to go, its their vacation. I've done it, it was 4 1/2 hours on an IC train with no bar car for this thirsty soul. And if I hadn't done it, I'd never have learned what a great city Berlin is.

Well, Sam, I expressed myself poorly - meant to say 3 nights are too few - in view of the many things to see and do there - as well as in view of the long trip. As outlined, the OP plans a 3.5 hour trip from Nuremberg to Berlin plus another 4-hr. trip back to Marburg. So that's nearly a full day's workshift to get there and back. That investment in time IMHO should be rewarded with more time in Berlin. (It was not my suggestion that Berlin should be omitted.)

I have no disagreement with your content, Lubitsch.

I think the cluelessness (there is really no other word for this,
mods, it's not meant to be condescending) of many people clearly
shines through when they want to base themselves in Freiburg or
Baden-Baden

Nor are you wrong here, exactly. I agree that this is a "clueless" strategy. But that cluelessness isn't for lack of effort on the part of Rick Steves' readers and forum members. My old RS G-A-S handbook clearly labels Baden-Baden, Freiburg and... Staufen... as "THE" places to stay in Rick's chapter, "Baden-Baden and the Black Forest."

14 days is a wonderful amount of time to spend in Germany. You have set up an ambitious schedule, covering more ground than I would like, even in two weeks. Everyone is recommending what you should drop. They all have different tastes. Do a bit of reading and see if something appeals to you less. (Michelin Green Guide is a good overall guide to be augmented by the internet.)

Berlin and Freiburg are in opposite corners of the countries and stretch the itinerary the most. I would look closely at them. I do not enjoy short stays in big cities and would let Berlin go first; but it is what you would like that counts.

@cathybert: Saw your inquiry about hiking on the TA thread... so I want to double down on my suggestion for a couple days in the Middle Rhine Valley. The Rhine Castle Trail connects towns (and castles) along the west river bank clifftops. Amazing views. It took me about 2.5 hours to cover the route through fields, forests, and vineyards between St. Goar and Oberwesel.

Thanks to all who have offered constructive advice. There is a lot to mull over here. The biggest reason for this trip is to spend time with our son, so we are co-ordinating that with trying to visit some interesting places in Germany AND to have some R and R time in a lovely place (where we can do hiking) together. So he suggested the Black Forest area, which he has been wanting to visit himself. So the 2 book-ends of the trip are the long week-end with our son at the beginning and the last couple of days before we depart. In between there are 6-7 days to play with. We'll keep working on this , and I will probably be back with more questions.

@ Russ
That trail does look amazing!
Way to confuse me more!

The Middle Rhine shouldn't be missed and not just for the trail. The old-world towns and castles are everywhere, all easily reached by train.

Braubach
Bacharach
Oberwesel
Your time frame could possibly put you there for Wine Witch Night in Oberwesel on April 30. The townsfolk burn a straw witch to usher out the old wine season, and crown a new one for 2018. Fireworks too.

@ Fred:
Not sure a night train would work unless it has a sleeper - can't sleep sitting up and , at 65, a night of no sleep turns into a useless day! I don't see info on the DB web site about this. Am I missing something?

You ever heard of "Night Train Lane", D-back for the Lions back in the 60's. Fred is trying to emulate him, but we can't figure out how to make it rhyme.

@ cathy....There is a "sleeper" (Schlafwagen) on the NJ night train from Offenburg to Berln Hbf , plus a couchette. You don't need to sleep sitting up as I do. You can check the DB website, another possible option. I can understand your concerns and the effects on not getting a full night sleep. ( I am 3 years your senior) CNL used to run the Offenburg-Berlin night route; now NJ runs it offering both the "sleeper " and "couchette" options, just as CNL did the past. In effect, nothing has changed.

A Detroit football analogy from the 1960s...never heard of it. I have no problems at all taking a night train, a lot easier than sleeping on a plane if you are to compare the two. I have done the night option too often since retiring, it's easy, plain and simple doing the routes between Austria and Germany, and within Germany. If those locals can do it, which is what you exclusively see, then I had better too, unless somehow they're better than I am.

Dick "Night Train" Lane was called Night train for his vicious hitting. I believe he was married to a jazz singer, Della Reese(?), maybe. No, it was Dinah Washington.

Feedback on Burg Eltz excursion? Train is not that long of a ride.

Not a long train ride? From where? According to the Bahn it's about 5 hours by train from Marburg, due mostly to a 1½ hr stopover in Koblenz.

On weekends starting in the spring (April 29 this year), there is a bus from Hatzenport to Burg Eltz. It takes a half hour from the Bahnhof at Hatzenport. The bus actually starts with two stops in the town of Treis, across the river from Karden. It makes two more stops in Karden, including at the Treis-Karden Bahnhof, before going to Hatzenport by way of Moselkern.

So, starting for one night in Frankfurt ; can anyone recommend hotel:
quiet , comfortable place to chill out after getting off the overnight flight
near Alstadt for walking around,
Restaurants

Thanks
Cathy

There is a slightly earlier post where Jo, who lives in Frankfurt, recommended:

"It depends on your budget, but these are the hotels I usually recommend:
Hamburger Hof, Holiday Inn Express Hauptbahhof, The Frankfurter, Ibis Hotel on the Friedensbrucke, Hotel Monopol, Adina Apts. Hotel Victoria, Nizza Hotel, Concorde Hotel, Excelsior Hotel."

She is generally very forthcoming with information and I believe she is also a Frankfurt guide.

https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/germany/frankfurt-hotel-recommendations

Thanks, @ Gary Mc!
Got my reservation for night 1!
It's a start!!