Yet another "where to go?" but this time on a bike and I don't mind hills and distance.

Bike trips we’ve taken, with full panniers, all in Spring:

Austria. Riding up the Danube path from Vienna is upstream, but outside of a stiff climb from the river into Melk, it wasn’t really hilly. No camping this first tour.

After the initial one, we added tent and sleeping bags for the next two:

Belgium. Actually pretty flat in the west, but heavy headwinds blowing off the North Sea sometimes kept us in the lowest gear, as if we were doing 14 percent climbs.

Ireland. The Western Way offered plenty of hills, and the added adventure of riding on the left side of the road, with sheep, nearby stone walls, and rainy weather.

We wound up in B&B’s most of the time, as from what I’ve seen, “camping” in Europe seems to mostly have organized, commercial campgrounds with facilities where a tent would get pitched on a concrete pad, among lots of VW vans or other mini motor homes, with showers a short walk away. In Belgium, we camped out twice, once on the back lawn of a B&B, once at a campground that felt like we were in a parking lot with a shower facility. In Ireland, we decided that sleeping indoors was the way to go. I’m not certain about camping out 70% of the time on a bicycle tour in Europe. In Colorado, we can pull off on public land (not a designated Wilderness Area) and that lets you do dispersed camping with tent, sleeping bags/pads. That sort of roughing it doesn’t appear to be how it’s done in Europe.

We just got home from a trip (plane, car, and train) that included the Black Forest (near Furtwangen and Triberg) - first time there. It was surprisingly delightful, with a fair share up uphills and descents, and we saw a few people on bicycles, as well as several also in the French Pyrenees. The Tour de France was coming through the area over a couple of days, and we stayed in, and hiked around Cauterets. Again, it seems that hotels and restaurants are how it’s done, more than tents and camping meals.
Scotland and more of Belgium (eastern) have been considered, but might not ever happen at this point. Hope your touring goes well.

Germany. Lots of long distance routes or make up your own. One I did years ago from Frankfurt - Odenwald ( Michelstadt, Miltenberg ) to Wertheim, down Romantic Road to Fuessen. Over Fern Pass to Innsbruck then via Krimml Falls to Werfen. Back route to Hallstadt then Salzburg.

Lots of good Youtube videos on such trips

I liked using a bike in the Loir Valley. There is a bike trail along the river that makes it much easier to get from one town to the next. I picked up a bike in Chinon and dropped it off in Amboise. With more time I might have covered twice the distance, or more. The rolling hills seemed bigger than they seemed in a car. Out of Amboise to Chenonceau was very steep uphill for about 1 km, then it was a nice ride the rest of the way.

I lost the trail going through Tours and ended up in very tight quarters with very large trucks. If you go, stick to the bike trail as much as possible.

Look at https://en.eurovelo.com/ for long distance routes.

For planning ideas throughout France, look at https://www.freewheelingfrance.com/

I don't know anything about cycling, but I did see a lot of cyclists in the Mosel Valley (we drove from Koblenz to about Bernkastel Kues). There is a paved trail that runs along the river as well as loads of side roads in the hills. We passed several large campgrounds that were mainly occupied by RVs, but they were right on the river and had grassy areas. I would camp there. It looks like there is a Rhine River bike route, which probably connects with this path near Koblenz. if you were going out and back from Koblenz, you could take your bike on a boat (or probably a train) for the return voyage.
Mosel Valley was gorgeous! Also, wine. We went there because we got a deal on a flight into/out of Frankfurt. Would go back and stay longer.

More on camping. I had a camper van for two weeks, and we did stay at places that were very RV oriented, but most of them had grassy tent areas, as well. A couple of standouts were Camping Lido in Lucerne (near the transport museum), Camping Nord-Sam in Salzburg (pool! and the Sound of Music tour picked us up there), Natterersee in Innsbruck. These places all had very nice showers, some kind of cafe and good local bus connections. Even the "parking lot" campgrounds we stayed at offered fresh bread/pastry in the mornings. So civilized. Somehow I ended up driving down the Furka Pass (would do again in like a Miata) and stayed in what amounted to a field on the Rhone called Camping Nufenen outside Ulrichen. Again with the fresh bread in the morning.
All this is to say that there are places you can comfortably tent camp. All of these were found using Google.
Have a great trip!

You indicated you ride a wide tire bike with heavy frame, so you probably don't wish to climb many mountains in the Alps.

I am 76 and until I had some serious hip and back issues, for many years I did about 5000 miles a year on my bike.
Did Bike Rides every year like The Bike Ride Across Georgia as well as rides in Florida, NC and Virginia.

I remember a wonderful ride from north Florida to Key West in 11 days.

One thing that I learned was riding in congested large cities was not my choice. I want to live and avoid hospitals. Car traffic is not good for long distance bike riding.

The way people in Italy drive (I love Italy), I would never drive in a large or medium sized city in Italy.

Stick to the countryside. Never researched bike trails in Europe, but perhaps there are some. Netherlands, Belgium and France would be great choices for biking.

Travel Boss said Loir but probably meant Loire. They both are rivers near each other in France. I cycled both years ago. Good, non hilly cycling. I don’t think there are many bike paths, but the roads marked in white in the Michelin 1:200,000 maps are almost as car free as a bike path.

Germany is a great country for cycling. You could actually fly into Amsterdam and start your trip there, touring through the eastern portion of the Netherlands, then head farther east to the North Rhine-Westphalia area of Germany, which is beautiful country and great for cycling. After that, continue southwards towards the Mosel/Rhine area, which is really lovely and then down towards the Black Forest to places like Gengenbach, and so on. You could then head into the Alsace area of France to see Strasbourg, Colmar and others.

Are you planning to rent a bike or bring one with you? Just wondered how that would work in terms of your beginning and end destination.

Thank you all, so far for your comments. One thing I want to avoid is something I see here (Southern California) on the local bike path that runs along the beach. The path is so easy to ride that on weekends and sunny afternoons it attracts HUNDREDS of casual riders who are riding very slow. It makes it dangerous to ride if you try and weave through the slower traffic. Some of the people I ride with refuse to ride there. I avoid it when it fills up.

Yes, I understand about "camping" in Europe. It is just a place to stop that is cheaper than a hotel.

I would. like to ride my own bike. I think "fit" is very important. A rented bike would be OK for a short ride but 1000+ km no. I am sure I can ship it with me from home in a box. But how to find a box for the return flight, I would be departing from an airport 1,000 km from the one I flew into. I guess I find a bike shop

I am a decent bike mechanic. I have built bikes from frames but I'd have limited tools and part with me aside from a couple spare tubes and a patch kit what else to bring, Maybe a few spare spokes.

In Nice, France last month, we saw several cyclists at the airport. The Tour de France had just wrapped up there, and might’ve drawn several people to the area. Some were toting sturdy-looking bike cases, but there were a few simple cardboard boxes. I doubt those could’ve been very protective, but maybe a lot of padding was inside. Where and how they stashed their bike cases while they rode is unknown.

Maybe they assembled their pedals and other bits once they arrived. Maybe a bike shop was used. Maybe airlines themselves have bike cases (or cardboard boxes?!?!?) for cycling customers … make inquiries, if you won’t be using your own, permanent case.

Yes, people do have to rotate the handlebars, remove the pedals and the front wheel, and box the bike with bubble wrap inside. When I said "Find a bike shop" I meant to beg for a box. Bike shops get new bikes in these boxes and need to assemble them and then need to dispose of the boxes.

Hard cases only work if you are staying in one place or riding in a circle.

Chris hi!

Hank here. I've done 9 cycling trips to Europe, 15 separate routes (some trips broken up by regular tourist thing in the middle).

I think I ride about the same as you, minimum 100 miles per week year round, 150 in summer, 300-450 per week when touring in Europe.

I think you are right on with about 100km a day, or say maybe 70-130km a day range. One thing to consider is that literally you have nothing else to do all day except ride - as such, the mileage stacks up easily. You can mix in some may days too at interesting places.

You have posited a huge question about where to go. There are many routes and much very good bicycle infrastructure. I would think about two things in particular when selecting a route:

1) very good to great cycle infrastructure. The cycling infrastructure in many places in Europe is incredibly good compared to the United States. Take advantage of it! Wonderfully safe and scenic cycle paths are part of the experience. You can get endlessly buzzed by trucks touring the Pacific Coast highway at home - may as well take full advantage of Europe's superior routes.

2) Amenities along the way that fit your desires.
So for instance, if your desire is to camp, definitely pick a route that has frequent quality camping. A great itinerary does you no good if the camping sucks or is poorly located. I tend to stay hotels (aka credit card touring) when I'm in Europe, but if I was camping I would pick a route with good camping.

Another piece of advice - it's nice to be either basically fully in or fully out on the camping. I have a friend who I tore with in the US, but it drives me crazy that he wants to bring camping stuff and then maybe camp 4 or 5 or 6 nights out of 10. I hate dragging all of that gear around if I'm not going to be nearly always using it. I'd rather pay a little bit more to stay inside in that case. +-80% camping is about my cut off for wanting to bring the camping gear. Particularly a long way overseas.

Wild camping in Europe (aka just putting up your tent somewhere and sleeping for free) is far less common than in the US. I suspect that most of your camping would be at campgrounds where you're paying for your site. In Europe these tend to be more population dense, tents close together, many people. And they're not free. I would take a long hard look at warmshowers.com, hostels, cheap hotels etc and see if you can't come reasonably close to similar cost to not ride with all the gear. You'll end up stuck at a campground that's not in town far less often. You'll have less worry about your worldly possessions being left where they might be easily stolen. etc.

One big upside of camping though, It will put you in contact with a much broader world of cycling tourists. All hotels can be admittedly isolating when you're traveling solo. Hostels are a good in between, and warmshowers you get to talk with the host. But it can get a bit lonely hoteling by yourself the whole time.

I have way more information than this! Well over 100 nights out on the bike in Europe.

Will check back in, or shoot me a pm.

Hank

Chris when I fly my bike back home from Europe I use a soft bag. Something like this

https://a.co/d/4WxjylK

I have had this type of bag shipped to me in Europe held at a UPS location, and also shipped to a hotel. I've done it from online bike shops in Europe, and I've done it through Amazon in a given country. Normally I've paid a bit less, about $30.

A few caveats. I'm not bringing my nice carbon bike to Europe. Instead, I bring a more everyday looking sort of hybrid bike. It's worth about $1,000 all in. So if the airline destroys it, not the end of the world. You can of course still make a claim for damaged luggage in that case, but I've never needed to. Worse that has happened a bent chainring that needed replacing. These type of soft bike bags qualify for nearly every airlines bicycle transport standard. Some of them can actually strap onto your handlebars in their own little bag as well, quite handy if you pick up the bag ahead of your final destination.

I've never begged a box from a bike shop in Europe to return home. It seems good in theory, but not knowing the shops or their protocols or their opening hours etc etc, I pictured myself running out of time and not being able to pack my bike.

So anyway, not a guarantee that your bike will not arrive at home as a pile of broken parts, but definitely a guarantee that you will be able to put it on the plane and then cross your fingers.

Another method that I've used before is a giant clear plastic bag, very thick and tough. And then heavy duty zip ties closing it. A company used to sell these explicitly for bikes on airlines, idea being that if the luggage handlers can see your bicycle, they're far less likely to just throw it around. I haven't been able to find these bags for a while though, but maybe they're still out there?

Hank, Thanks. Your comments about camping are helpful. Even here in the US it is hard to "wild camp" with a bicycle. This is because bikes are tied to roads and on roads anyplace near where people live, you can't camp. Yes there are exceptions. If backpacking on foot then you are "wilderness camping". With Wilderness being defined as places with no road within a couple of days of travel, Bikes would not be allowed there.

One thing that wilderness camping teaches you is to pack light. I've got a trip planned for next month. Ten days and I have to carry all the food. Food is usually 1.25 pounds per day and mostly freeze-dried. The gear I would take for camping that is extra is just a tent and sleeping bag and foam pad and stove, I think about 10 pounds. I've never understood people who pack 70 pounds on their bikes. I can go 10 days on the trail with no resupply and start out with just over 40 pounds and still be prepared for raion or unexpected freezing weather

I think I agree with your comment not to try and mix styles. I'm planning another local trip this fall on the bike for two nights. I'll take my carbon road bike and a credit card. and one change of clothing.

The other comment about shipping bike makes sense. It is different going in each direction. I can box the bike to shipment to Europe but on the return, if they will accept it in a bag, then if damaged I can take my time fixing it and putting in a claim and it looks like SAS might sell bags.

Chris it sounds like you have the mechanics of lightweight cycle touring well sorted out. That is great! Will certainly serve you well however you go in Europe.

I normally would recommend a river route to a Europe first timer because they are so easy and rewarding, but you have plenty of experience.

So my recommendations are either the Alpe Adria Cycle Route, or the Via Claudia Augusta. AA from Salzburg to Grado, VCA from Munich-ish to Venice.

You can mix these routes by crossing from one to other through the beautiful Pustertal Valley, which has a very nice cycle path. So you can start in Salzburg and then end up in Venice if you want to, etc.

You can also do any section of the given routes, and you can also loop them together if you want, either in their entirety or in part.

There are good quality train lines along most of each route, with many easy local trains to take a bike on and off if there are sections you want to skip. You get to see many stunning landscapes and experience dramatic cultural change as you go from Germany, into the Alps/Dolomites, and eventually to Italy (or the other way around).

You can also ride some sections of Danube and Inn River cycle trails ahead of or after the Alpe Adria.

From the Via Claudia Augusta one can also loop out into Switzerland briefly, via Nauders.

Good infrastructure for self-powered travelers on both routes. Both routes have existed for a very long time through history and so have plenty of experience with hosting people passing through, even in the more out of the way parts. Good cycling infrastructure on nearly all of each ride too.

Anyway, for a solid cyclist not hauling 50 lbs of gear these easy transalp routes are just outstanding bang for the pedal stroke. I'm not sure which I prefer, both very nice.

There are cycling guidebook for both routes, and the Kootmoot app has official routes and gps tracks.

Much more out there of course - If a different region is attractive to you, happy to weigh in if I have personal knowledge :)

Hank,
Thanks for the ideas. I will have to study them for a while before I can ask meaningful questions.

As for other areas, I think I'll take a train from where I live, just So. of Los Angeles to (roughly) Seattle then ride most of the way back. As soon as the weather is best for this. I'll ride to San Diego in a couple of months but that is just an overnight trip of 125 miles one way.

I just found out the train from LA to Seattle is $118 and they let you carry on a bike. I figure I can ride as far as I like then for $60 ride home.

I'm retired now so I have so time to go a few places.