Would you take the train?

Insane is right. For example, Augsburg to Gimmelwald is 7-8 hours with a minimum of 4 train changes and Gimmelwald to Lyon is 6+ hours with at least 5 train changes.

Huck I not sure I quite understand your trip plan. First, it would be helpful if you write it out Day 1, etc. or Day 15 or wherever this part of your trip starts. Second, some more itinerary planning for you. You need to know how much transportation time in between your cities. Block out your whole trip on an on line calendar like WinCalendar (freeby for basics) so you can tinker with it. In the Word version, the day blocks expand so you can add as much detail as you want. In RS books, at the end of each city chapter, a section describes train, car, bus, air time between each city with how many busses, train, flights per day. That way you can compare air/train times. You need to also figure in hotel to hotel time not just the flight / train ride. It will often double/triple the time for shorter times. Use travel time and add to your calendar. These I note on the calendar as Travel Days with all the specifics. Now you have the basics of your itinerary and will find out if this is doable for you. Only you know if traveling by overnight train will work. Check out the different seating/couchettes options. My 21 yr old son did a Europe overnight just once in a 6 person couchette. Never again he said. Snoring, bad breath, smells in the very small compartment kept him from sleeping all night. Check out the cost of cheap European flights on www.skyscanner.com. My rule of thumb is to stay at least 2 nights and 3 or more is better at each destination. Also, you don't want to spend more time getting to and leaving a destination than you are spending there! You really don't get a sense of place and a feel for the city/countryside unless you are there for a while. Sit at an oudoor cafe each day for an hour or two and watch the world go by. Contnued

Contined Also check to see if the sites you want to see can be done without further transportation from the cities you are visiting. Do you need a car to do it, can you take a day trip by tour bus or small group? Great idea to get a car in Lyon! Wonderful countryside close to the city. You will love it. Remember by car the roads are 2 lanes in the country. Do not go by mileage to figure out how time it will take. Google and figure out the drive time. IMHO, you need to cut wayyyy down on your destinations. Keep us posted on any changes.

Huck, I most definitely agree with the others! This Itinerary is not realistically possible. Could you elaborate on why you chose the cities you listed, and the circumstances of your trip (ie: why does it have to be done at such a blistering pace, what are you hoping to see on this trip)??? As a "newbie Europe traveler", my first suggestion would be to read Europe Through The Back Door before you get too far in your planning. It appears that you have a very limited time frame, so the best method for getting between cities will be fast trains wherever possible. Forget the car as you'll pay HUGE fees to rent in one country and drop in another. It will also be much slower and not as efficient given the distances you have to cover. One point to mention regarding Railpasses is that these do NOT include reservation fees that are compulsory on some trains (usually the fast trains). You'll have to pay separately for those. As you appear to be only taking a few trips by train, P-P tickets may be a better choice (you'll have to do the math). You might consider reducing the area you cover on this trip, to better fit the time you have available. Each time you have to change locations, this will use some of your limited travel time. Some of the trips you mentioned will require the better part of a day. I agree with a previous comment - time to go back to the drawing board! Good luck!

You mention cost. Are you aware that if you drop the car off in a country other than the one you rented it in you will pay a significant drop fee. Since you have already bought the Eurail pass I would plan to use the train.

Let me be blunt... your itinerary is absolutely insane. You will see almost nothing except the inside of trains and stations. You've allotted a full day for Gimmelwald, but what happens if that day is rainy and clouded over (as happens often)? The others will surely chime in, but I think you need to go back to the drawing board.

Wow. I'm not sure you could accomplish this trip even with a private jet. You're hoping to cover huge distances with multiple train transfers. As previously mentioned, picking up a car and dropping in another involves a significant additional drop charge. Switzerland requires you purchase an annual highway sticker. Trains would be better in my opinion, but I can't fathom what kind of schedule you'd need to do all of this in the short time you're planning.

Just for the heck of it, I went to Google maps. Here are the distances and driving times. Oslo-Copenhagen, 350 miles, 6.5 hours (sounds optimistic to me), includes a ferry (add time) and crossing in and out of Sweden (border delays?) by car. My guess, a train will take more than 6.5 hours. Copenhagen-Hannover. 300 miles. Hannover-Augsburg. 370 miles. Augsburg-Gimmelwald. 270 miles Gimmelwald-Lyon. 240 miles (mountains, yes?) I took a pretty fast train from Vienna to Prague, which is only 200 miles. It took 4 hours. No changes, no delays, no mountains. Yep, insane is definitely the right word. I don't know why you need freedom to stop along the way, you aren't even going to have time to see anything at your destinations.

Not being too much of a smart aleck. But you arent going to see Europe this way. You could be back in Durham, except the big trucks in front of you will have a different licence plate

Hi, A newbie to Europe...that means this is your first trip I take it. First, forget the car, unless there are specific villages and sites you want to see specifically in France. Second, skip Grimmelwald. With one transfer in Hamburg, the ride fron Copenhagen to Hannover is almost 7 hrs., getting in at 16:23 Friday afternoon. A day and half in Hannover is enough unless your reasons for going are personal. I recommend seeing the Herrenhausen Gardens. I've been to Hannover a few times, only once for real visiting, never held out an attraction. Leave Hannover on Sunday morning, 4hrs to Augsburg arriving ca., 1330. That's good. Skip Grimmelwald and add a day or two to Augsburg...you may want to drop in on Munich or Ulm as a day trip. From Augsburg to Lyon take the 0706 departure, the most direct route with a single transfer in Strasbourg, one of my favourite cities in France to stay and visit, or you continue the ride to Lyon arrriving at 1630. All this very doable, especially with the Eurail Pass. For the Augsburg-Strasbourg leg, it's mandatory to reserve. Yes, do the entire journey by train.

Thanks for the helpful replies. I admitted it was insane. But let me explain a little more. From Oslo to Hannover to Augsburg is because we have family to visit in these places, but we do not have the luxury of frolicking in Europe for a month. We don't have to go to Copehagen, but the train schedule says it's possible to get to Copenhagen in 7 hours, and then Hannover in 7 hours. Augsburg is then <4 hours by train. Not ideal, I agree. Maybe we should just fly to Hannover and buy a ticket just for the Augsburg leg. Once we get to Augsburg, I think a car makes more sense. It's only about 4.5 hours drive to Stechelberg from there, but the train is much worse (more than 7 hours). And then to more family in France where again the car is much faster due to the number of train connections. Yes, the drop off fee is high but is looking like it is worth it. Or I can decide which relatives to skip, mine or my wife's.

I get that you're trying to connect with family members. But do you think they would want you to spend as much money and time as you are proposing just to see everyone? Your trip is like trying to go from Montreal to Chicago, and then to Kansas City, and then to the Ozarks and then to Dallas.

Huck, You're not going to have much time at all to visit with family, so I'd question whether the "blitz Itinerary" and cost is worth the effort. Is it essential that you see all of them on this particular visit (as Rick often says "assume you will return")? In the same situation, I'd probably pick one group of relatives from each side of the family to visit on this occasion, preferably in a reasonably close geographical area to minimize travel times. That would perhaps "keep some "peace in the family". Perhaps I missed it in the previous posts, but what's the time frame of this trip? Good luck!

Huck Now your trip plans make more sense! Well, at least why you want to visit, anyway. Not what you are planning. Yes, skip Copenhagen. Is there a way you can have some of your family meet you instead of you going to them? Not ideal but that will have to come on your next visit! Or like one of the other writers mentioned, skip one of them for this trip. OK, more details. On the car trips, did you get the mileage or the number of hours driving? What are the roads like you plan on driving? Back to you!

Thanks for the perspectives, everyone. I think my basic question got answered, which is that I should NOT take the train. I can skip Copenhagen and gain essentially an extra day in Hannover. Then by renting a car in Augsburg, I can free up several additional hours compared to train. Both add to the cost (but actually by removing 2 countries from my rail pass, this will offset the cost somewhat). Remember I was going to drive anyway once I got to Lyon. Also, I want to make sure people know this is not my entire trip. There is nice time in Paris and then Oslo/Bergen before I set out for Hannover, and there is nice time in the French countryside after I leave Lyon. This middle stretch is a bit crazy, but really the Hannover-Augsburg train is quite fast, and the drive from Augsburg to Stechelburg is not too bad. (I know it would be nice to linger much longer in Bavaria, but that was never the focus of this trip). I guess the only thing that would make it more sane would be skipping Gimmelwald, but I think that is a non-starter. Thanks again for all the suggestions.

Hi, Yes, it would make sense to skip Copenhagen and fly from Oslo to Hannover, which would be Hannover-Langenhagen. The ride from Hannover to Augsburg is direct on the ICE, a bit over 4 hrs. Maybe you might want to consider getting a French-German Pass since the long rides you are taking are in and between those countries. I am not adverse to taking long train rides with the Pass, especially when you have certain obligations to meet.

If it works out in your itinerary, you can drive to the border and train across it, then rent another car in that country. The train ticket is less Euro than the drop-off fee. So, now exactly where does that leave you with train routes (now that you're planning on flying that one connection)?

Train routes will be Oslo to Bergen and Back (this is before the part I posted about), Berlin to Hannover (this is because the flight we found goes to Berlin), Hannover to Augsburg, and some as-yet-undecided city in the south of France back to Paris on the TGV. Definitely looking at a pass - some places offer a rail and drive combo that is cheaper than renting separately. I think the clever option of driving across the border to return the car does not work because we are picking up the car in Germany and it will be quite inconvenient to get back to Germany for the rest of our trip.