World's best cities to live in

What were the criteria? I think that No. America has been dissed a bit here. I have to say that I would move back to Chicago in heartbeat. I love Madison, but it's not really a city. Chicago was a place where I could afford a condo, there were outdoor activities--I sailed with AYH--, lots of cultural activities, and interesting politics. But if there is a public education requirement, I guess it would bump into some difficulties. I notice that there are no cities from the British Isles either. Pam

It's based mostly on measurable statistics, and the absence or presence of certain things, trying to make it as objective as possible, as opposed to "I like that city". Honolulu had the highest ranking of any US city at 29th. Quoting the article from Forbes, here's the criteria:

"rates 420 global cities on the basis of the political and social environment (including stability, crime and law enforcement); the strength of the economy; restrictions, such as censorship and limitations on personal freedom; the quality of health care as well as exposure to infectious diseases; and school quality. In addition, it looked at recreation, theaters, sports activities, access to grocery markets, the availability and cost of housing, as well as the climate and susceptibility to natural disasters."

Forbes also listed numbers 11 through 20. No surprises, more of Canada, New Zealand, Australia and Germanic Europe (with two partially Francophone cities). I knew the Dutch speakers wouldn't be completely shut out of the top 20...

I just read the article too. Without offending most of my countrymen, I'm not surprised. I'm disheartened but not suprised.

Most of those cities (especially the top 5, and numbers 8, 9, 10 ) are expensive cities to be in. The criteria did not include general expenses. One of the criteria was cost for housing. I thought the costs for housing at Vienna and Zurich and Geneva and Bern are very high.

You're right, the German cities mentioned are also known to be the most expensive cities in Germany - first of all for housing but also for other living expensive. My friend sold her 1200 sqft townhouse in Duesseldorf for half a million USD....

There is also a very interesting prize for the most livable city that does separate cities also by size and gives some good examples on how to define a great city to live in:

http://www.livcomawards.com/

My favourite German city Muenster won the prize in 2004. And I was really sad leaving after 8 years of living there...

I find this interesting. Last week, Forbes listed the "happiest countries". They were:

1. Denmark

2. Finland

3. Netherlands

4. Sweden

5. Ireland

6. Canada

7. Switzerland

8. New Zealand

9. Norway

10. Belgium

If you combine the two, Auckland or Vancouver or Geneva or Zurich win out.

Hey, I only reported this, that doesn't mean I endorse it.

I have never been to Vienna, maybe I should.

I was in Zürich, and, not considering cost of living there, it is probably the loveliest city I have ever been to.

I've been to Vancouver. It was nice, but so was Seattle, where I lived at the time.

I've been in Düsseldorf. The old town was nice.

Munich might be my favoritist place in the world.

Frankfurt? It was OK. I probably didn't see the best parts.

I wonder if this is a "null sum" problem. If one place is better than another, everyone wants to live there, and the cost of living there will go up until they are equal.

But, just based on living there, cost independent, Zürich has to be the best place I have ever been to.

Interesting that one of their criteria was access to transportation. If that includes local transportation, then no U.S. city is in the same league. A few eastern U.S. cities (NY, Philly, DC) might have acceptable transportation, but not in the same class with Europe.

Regarding Laura's post about Forbes' happiest countries: A great book is The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner (NPR correspondent). Believe it or not, Iceland is among the top, as is Thailand.

An entertaining read.

Not quite sure I understand your point on the most common foreign languages taught in the U.S. Is it your opinion languages being offered to students should be based on whatever country tops the Forbes list the most (in this instance, German) and teaching Spanish is useless and teaching French only slightly useless?

As a working professional in Corporate America who studied both French and Spanish while in school, I frequently have to use Spanish (never French). There is a huge segment of the U.S. population that are out in the workforce and Spanish is their primary language, it's easy to understand why it is one of the languages being taught at most U.S. schools.

U.S. schools need to focus on educating children in a foreign language earlier and longer than they have in the past decades to ensure they are bilingual by the time they graduate high school. I would also venture to say it would be helpful if Chinese, Japanese, Russian and Arabic where offered in addition to the usual Spanish, French, German or Italian.

I saw that today Lee and very interesting as 7 of the 10 are within about 300 miles of each other. Nice to know we are travelling in some of the best places in the world.

And I would like to note that Luxembourg City made the top 20......

I've noticed that Vancouver frequently seems to get on these "lists". I'd be interested to see a detailed breakdown of the criteria they used?

I've lived in the Vancouver area (albeit many years ago) and it is a great place to live in many ways. However, there's no way I could afford to live within the city boundaries now. Some of the single family homes on the west side of the city (Kerrisdale, Kitsilano) are over $1 M! Way out of my price range! Of course the same thing is true of Victoria and Kelowna (depending on which area the properties are located).

The transportation in the "lower mainland" (the cities surrounding Vancouver in that corner of the Province) is getting better, but it's not as good as many of the European cities on the above list. SkyTrain is a good way to get around in the areas it covers, and there's also a fleet of electric trolley/diesel Buses. Certainly nothing as good as the London Tube or Paris Metro. There's still too much reliance on the car, and hopefully that will change in future.

Anyway, just a few thoughts on the above list....

This has been out for a few weeks and I was wondering when someone would post it on here, so thanks Lee. If you look back over the years, the same cities seem to be there, perhaps trading places up and down a bit.

So, I am quite happy living in one of the top ten. My availability to excellent health care including its low cost, cheap and easy public transportation, a good infrastructure, safe streets to walk on day or night, my kids have gotten a good education, my daughter will be able to attend university for something like 500 € per semester, food is cheap, there is always something going on in the city, I know FF has the highest cultural budget of any city in Europe which they are using to make the city attractive for artists to come and live here along with all the museums and historical stuff that needs funding. As to it being expensive here, I don't think it is any more expensive to live here than cities I have been to in the midwest, except for housing.

Its funny, I meet an awful lot of people who have moved here due to their jobs or whatever. Most of them say they were less than thrilled when told they were going to move to Frankfurt, they had heard the odd reputation that the city has on all of the travel forums that it is boring, nothing to do here, nothing historical, etc. Then they say, after living here for only a short while, they realized that reputation was completely wrong, that this is just the nicest city to live in, they all love it.

You guys did know I was going to chime in here didn't you? Ahh, but the sun is shining here, the Dragon Boat races start in a couple of hours, (I hope it is shining where you are too) and that everyone has a great weekend.

I came to Vancouver for a vacation 44 years ago and am still in the area....Cant see any comparison with Seattle though...Where are the mountains which are a major component of lifestyle in Vancouver? Have been to all of the top ten cities and if I couldnt live in Vancouver my choice would definitely be Auckland.

It's really subjective. There are so many magazines that put out "Best Cities" lists that I've lost count. What's a great city to one, would be awful to another.

The "Best City" for each of us would be different because we all have different criteria for what we want.

For me, there are only 2 or 3 cities on that list I would even consider living in. And in Europe, there are a lot of places I would prefer to live in that are not on the list than those that are.

"I frequently have to use Spanish ".

It is really sad, that in a country were 82% of the population (higher if you only count those in the country legally) speak a single primary language, that anyone would have to speak a second language to communicate.

Only about 60% of non-English speakers in this country speak Spanish. It would seem more logical to teach the 25 million or so immigrants of all languages who do not already speak English to speak English than to teach 40 million school children (less than 13% of the population) to speak one language that is only spoken by 60% of immigrants.

Why should we waste educational resourses to "ensure they are bilingual by the time they graduate high school"? Today, half of all American high school students spend 12% of their time studying a foreign language. Why? Ten years later most of them will not remember any of it. What a waste. To live in the United States, you do not have to know a language other than English, and, in fact, it is difficult to maintain proficiency when speaking a foreign language is not necessary.

Half of all Europeans cannot communicate in a language other than their mother tongue. And this is on a continent where you have to speak four languages (German, French, Spanish, and Italian) to speak with 250 million people in their native tongue. Only 11% of continental Europeans can speak four languages, and it is not necessarily those four languages. In the United States, if you only speak English, you can speak to that many people.

I'm not against teaching language in this country. I just think we should concentrate our efforts to teach English to non-English speakers. We should discontinue teaching Spanish to our children and devote those resources to ensuring that all non-English speakers can speak English.

Lee,

Your last post on the topic of languages was interesting. The facts you mentioned raise some good points.

I live in a supposedly bilingual country, however that seems to be more a matter of theory than reality. In theory they'd like to have the majority of the population speaking both languages, but the reality is that French is most prevalent in central Canada (Ontario & Quebec), some parts of the Maritimes and isolated pockets in other areas.

Our federal government provides huge amounts of funding for French immersion, and many parents insist on enrolling their children in F.I. schools (both at the elementary and secondary school levels) even in this part of British Columbia. While many students of these programs are fully fluent when they graduate, I've never seen any data on how useful this education is to them in the post-high school world?

I suspect that your facts are correct, in that those who don't use their second language regularly will eventually lose this to some extent. One difference with those in Europe is that people there that are fluent in more than one language often get a chance to practise so may be able to better retain fluency skills.

Cheers!

I spent two years in high school and a year in college learning French. I barely remember a word (almost no use). I spent no formal time learning German, but I remember a lot more, probably because at least I have relatives and parents to use it with.

Back on topic- if Honolulu is rated the best in the U.S, there is something wrong. The cost of living is insane, and I have heard there are other problems living there.

As an educator I frequent hear the criticism that ....

......U.S. schools need to focus on educating children in a foreign language earlier and longer than they have in the past decades to ensure they are bilingual by the time they graduate high school.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Bilingual for whom???? The US, and to a less extent Canada, the question is, "Which language ???" For the rest of the world it is a no brainer --- ENGLISH. English is the first choice for a second language in nearly every country. It is the language of business, of traffic controllers, the internet, etc. But which language does an English speaking country teach as a second language??? Spanish -- we need that in the US to order fast food and other services. Chinese ?? but then who do we practice on. At least in Europe you can practice your English on all the tourist and not just American tourists. Recent in Spain and in a little out of the way Spanish cafe the waiter's knowledge of English match my Spanish but we survived. Next table over, was, I believe, a Greek couple and which language where they try to use to order. English !! Now would being bilingual in Chinese or Japanese, or every German been helpful in that situation. I would love to be bilingual and am working on a little Italian and French but cannot find that many Itlians and French to speak with in the US. But I do need to order a hamburger now and then, I guess I should be working on Spanish.

In the U.S.....graduate business students who are interested in going into international business are either studying Chinese or Arabic.

In Miami, every high school student is required to take Spanish and English. The reasoning is that Miami is the gateway to Latin America and it would be beneficial for them to know Spanish.

It's not just about every day living. It's about learning to deal with the world. While it's true that English is now considered the most common second language, not everyone speaks English and it would be beneficial for Americans wishing to do business overseas to learn the local language. The Middle East and China are becoming out largest markets. (Behind Canada and Mexico.)

Frank II, your last post was interesting.

On a trip to Germany a few years ago, I encountered some Chinese students that were staying there to attend German language courses (I'm assuming for business purposes?). China is a huge market, and I'm sure that's something the E.U. is pursuing.

BTW, the students were most helpful in translating the P.A. messages on the train, as my German language skills are VERY limited (they could also speak a bit of English).

Cheers!

Ken, almost everyone eventually is going to be a customer of China. It's smart for their people to learn as many languages as possible.

That's easy! Chicago, IL, USA--from mid June through mid September--is the world's best city in which to live. But from mid September through mid-June...it's the worst. (;

Maybe because it is historic, culturally significant, has some great art and architecture and great cusine.

Vienna dull? Really???
I LOVED Vienna, and the locals were super friendly!
Wow! How differently we experience things!

Ken,

I always wonder why Vancouver beats out Calgary. :)

Sure, we might have cold winters, but I think I would rather have cold sunny days, then warmer rainy days.

I enjoy Germany and Austria too, and not only because I get to use my high-school German. I love the museums and the music. However, it is striking to me that there seems a collective amnesia about the world-significant events which took place there within living memory of many. This concerns me, as most countries manage to accept the flaws in their history and move forward.

I'm sure the reflective and democratic tradition of nations which have not been ruled by authoritarian criminal regimes means they have less to answer for, but people worldwide know of, for instance, the poor treatment of native Americans, African-Americans, and Japanese-Americans at various points of our national history, and fault the United States on that basis. Similarly, the greatest writer in the English language wrote plays showing terrible crimes committed by Englishmen on other Englishmen, including children.

I find this realistic approach comforting, and hope that when the WWII generation is "consumed" that a greater acceptance of their recent past will come to the people of Germany and Austria.

I am not following your comment Chris, about collective amnesia in Germany? Since you most likely do not speak German, nor live here, then you probably do not know what is taught in the schools, how often themes about the war are on TV and in the paper, documentaries that are shown, and the reparations made. I think they have done quite a good job of keeping this subject present in peoples lives. It certainly is not swept under the table or ignored.

Just another note on the best places to live discussion. Visiting a city as a tourist is not the same as living there. Things you want to see and do while on vacation may be at odds with the things you desire as a resident. The thought of living in Paris or Rome may sound attractive, but the actuality of living with those millions of tourists would put a damper on my desire to live there. As a tourist, one seldom gets to experience medical care while on vacation, nor put up with a commute to and from work, or go grocery shopping day in and day out, or have your kids be in school. So, trying to judge these other places from a visitors standpoint is difficult. I think all those top 10 cities look attractive to me, as I live in one of them and therefore know what kind of things they considered as criteria and I get to experience this on a day to day basis.

I totally disagree about the collective amnesia. My mother is German and born after the war, and I can assure you that I was taught more about the horrible events of the WWII era at an early age than most fully American children. The only exception to this might have been those who grew up in the East, as the communist government neglected to teach much history from that time. For a looooong time, the Germans paid restitution for their crimes and are STILL tracking down war criminals for prosecution.

The Germans have museums such as in Nuremberg, showing the horrors of Nazi rule. There are memorials in many spots. Sophie Scholl, who protested the Nazis and was beheaded for it, is a hero in Germany and was voted one of the most important women of the 20th century.

Lise, I seriously doubt if James has ever been in Vienna. He likes to stir the pot with contrary opinions with outlandish statements. In fact, I really wonder if he has ever been in Europe. Probably a guide book expert.

Beatrix,

Now you also know why I live in the Okanagan (Re: my earlier post).

Good luck (hope it doesn't last long).

Jon, I've noticed that Vancouver seems to be frequently mentioned in these studies - not sure why that is? Perhaps because it's larger than Calgary?

I share your feelings about the rain on the "wet coast". Now you know why I live in the Okanagan!!!

Cheers!

Chris, I have to agree with Jo and Cate. I don't think the aspect of "collective amnesia" is relevant at all in this case.

In conducting a study to find the "world's best cities to live in", I imagine the authors used criteria that measured quality of life, cost of living and other factors that relate to quality of life and living in each city today. The events of history are not really applicable to current conditions in each city, or to the study.

Cheers!

Jon,

after THIS winter any place on the list looks more attractive than Calgary. Even for today the s-word is in the forcast ...

But you're right, I grew up with grey skies and rain throughout the winter and don't need that. I'd take Victoria any day over Vancouver. It gets more sun and less rain.

Oh, and I'm totally with Jo. Visiting a city as a tourist and living there are two completely different experiences. I spent 6 weeks in Paris and loved it. One of the best experiences in my life - and one that that confirmed for me that I'd go back visiting any time but most certainly don't want to live there.

Chris,

what do you base your statement on about a case of "collective amnesia" of Germans?

On the fact, that even 50 years after the end of WWII a book like "The Reader" is written by a German who was an infant by the end of the war is not only a huge commercial success in Germany and abroad but also required reading in many German high schools?

On the fact, that this book is only one of hundreds written AND read on the topic by Germans?

On the fact that a movie about Hitler made by Germans got nominated for an Oscar only a few years ago?

On the fact, that the high school curriculum in Germany includes about a year of history lessons on the Weimar Republic and the Third Reich? [unless you understand how the Weimar Republik worked and failed you won't understand how it was possible for Hitler to obtain power - something very few Northamericans have ever heard of]

On the fact, that showing the German flag during the World Cup 2006 still produced discussions about this indicating a fascist trend - only in Germany and nowhere else? [btw the actual number of flags displayed during this special event still smaller than what you'd see on an average day in the US]

Sorry for my rambling on but I do feel rather offended by your comments.

Update to my earlier post:

It IS snowing right now ....................... nope, this city doesn't make the list for me.

Vienna here, tossing in my 2 cents worth! When I first landed this job in Vienna, I didn't know much about it. I guess I pictured a gray city forever caught in the cold war. Before moving here, a guy in our church in Maryland even said to me "they are all nazis over there." Fortunately, all of the above proved false and Vienna quickly became (as the heuriger song says) "the city of my dreams." But I will try to give an honest apraisal here: Why did Vienna rank number 1 most livable city?
1. Safe. Crime is low. Violent crime is lower still.
2. Maybe the best public transit system in the world.
3. Air and Water quality. Alpine spring water from you taps!
4. Nature at your door: Vineyards and Vienna woods embrace the city to the north and west.
5. Museums, Opera, symphony, art and architecture in abundance,
6. Everyone has health care. By American standards, there are no poor and dangerous neighborhoods. "income gap" is not so apparent.
7. Prices on basic necessities are not high.
8. Its a cosmopolitan city, centrally located in heart of Europe. Not as "lilly white" as you imagine.
9. The city is a managable size. At about 2 million, it is neither too big or too small.
QUALIFIERS:
1. Ugh. In winter it is dark by 4pm and the temp can hover around freezing from 1 December to 30 March.
2. "Services" tend to be expensive. Heating bills are very high (in my American opinion)
3. You hear a lot about how "cold" Austrians are. Americans are peaches: soft and fuzzy on the outside, but a hard core. Central Europeans are coconuts: hard exterior but soft in the middle. It is just a different style. With Austrians you start out quiet and polite. Get to know them and (my experience) they are as nice as can be.
4. High taxes are the trade off for social stability.
5. Rules are made to be followed.
All in all, Vienna is my cup of tea. Great place to raise kids. I could go on, but space is short! Happy travels!

Beatrix and Ken,

This winter was thankfully unusual. I have been in Calgary since 1999 and it was the worst one by far.

As being originally from Florida, I can say that Calgary summers are the best I have ever seen. I think it is the juxtaposition of winter to summer.

-Jon

Good points about the differences between visiting a city as a tourist and actually living there. Remember above all, the list comes from Forbes, which is a business magazine with a very particular perspective. Instead of using a raw cost of living, they used a cost of living index, which is more appropriate for comparison amongst different cities in different parts of the world. Crucially, and this is something that seldom affects travelers directly, the survey heavily weighted the ease of doing business, lack of corruption, and dependability and efficiency of government services. Hence, Zurich is #2 (a place few travelers fall in love with), and Rome, not exactly known for it's low levels of corruption, isn't even in the top 50.

Thank you Thomas for your great post. Almost all those reasons that you give for loving Vienna are pretty much the same ones that I have for loving Frankfurt. Well, except for the gorgeous scenery part(though it is pretty here with lots of parks, it just won't hold a candle to alps and mountains!) and being able to run out the door and go skiing! I also like living in a city that has played such a major role in German history through the ages.

The one thing that I really enjoy here is the multi-cultural diversity of the city with not any one country being over-represented. 25% of our population hold a foreign passport and probably another 25% either has dual citizenship, has taken on German citizenship or has a parent or grandparent from another country. It makes for lively festivals, great restaurants and shopping, and minimal racism. I think I would like living in Vancouver or Seattle for the same reasons. Have to say Auckland or Sydney sound fantastic too.

I would love to live in Haarlem, or in Paris or in Boulder, Colorado but the best city to live in ... New York City of course. That said, I moved out of NYC 10 years ago but can see it from my bathroom window and come in for work evcery day.

Ken--I'm a French Immersion baby from kindergarten through high school and I cannot stress how good it's been for me. In university, it gave me the opportunity to spend a semester in Belgium and it's opened doors for me in my career as well. I work as a civil servant and, while my job isn't designated bilingual, it does come in handy. To your point though, many (but not all)of my childhood friends have lost so much of what we learned.

Vancouver over Calgary? Mountains to ocean in less than 60 min. and spring comes early!! However, the gray November and February days do make me pine for my sunny hometown, Vernon. Lucky you, Ken!

These sort of polls always fascinate me as I wonder how many people are entirely rational when it comes to choosing the place where they want to live. I think many Londoners (myself included) can come up with VERY long lists of what they don't like about London, but wouldn't want to live anywhere else. I'm sure residents of New York, Tokyo, Mumbai and other insane cities feel exactly the same. A friend & her family moved to a place that looked perfect on paper (clean, low crime rates, good health services, good schools, lovely houses, near her husband's work) and they absolutely hated it as they felt that it was a sanitised version of real life.

AKF, yes, French Immersion is definitely good for some people. I suspect the difference in your case (as opposed to someone living in this area) is that you have lots of opportunities to use your second language. Although I've only been to Toronto very briefly, my impression is that those in "Central Canada" have much more exposure to French (especially Ottawa!) and much more opportunity to practise.

It's not surprising that many of your colleagues in French Immersion have lost their skills. That's been the case with the majority of the people I've encountered in this area (and other parts of B.C.) who haven't used their second language regularly after graduation. The vast majority of jobs in the west don't require any second language skills.

Cheers!

Tricia, yes, I do feel very lucky! I had the opportunity to move to the "lower mainland" last year due to a change in employment, but I dug my heels in - I'm NOT moving!

Hopefully you'll get a chance to move back here? It's growing but it's still a "small town" in many regards.

Cheers!

Ken - I wouldn't say that I get 'lots' of opportunities to practice, but yes, I would certainly get more than someone from out west, with the proximity to Ottawa and Quebec. But my friends in BC make fun of me when I visit because I spend ferry rides outside snapping pictures of the mountains!

AKF, That's kind of what I was referring to. French is much more prevalent in Toronto and especially Ottawa so there's more opportunity to use the language. I know VERY few people here that I'd be able to practise French with, much less try conversing.

To provide an example, I registered for a French Level I course at the local College. I thought it would be a good idea to learn a few of the "basics" before my trip to France this spring. Unfortunately, the course was CANCELLED due to lack of interest!

I've been trying to get up to speed with Pimsleur Level I but due to work and other committments, I haven't been able to spend as much time on it as I had hoped. Oh well, the trip is nearing very quickly so I'll have to try and "get by" with Rick's French Phrasebook.

Cheers!

Dusseldorf? Really?

I agree with Frank II that probably the reason why the French, Swedes, Austrians etc. don't have a national sense of remorse for the atrocities committed by their armies during the 30 Years War is because there is no living memory of that horrible conflict.

But: "People were given a choice" Actually, no they weren't. If the prince decided that the territory would be Protestant or Catholic, the average layman had no choice. And the mercenary armies of both sides showed a great proclivity to rape, pillage and plunder regarless of a given town's stated religion.

But since we have now gone way beyond the original purpose of this posting, I shall now officially drop out of this thread.

I usually don't like to bring up topics that were already discussed, but in response to this statement:

"However, it is striking to me that there seems a collective amnesia about the world-significant events which took place there within living memory of many."

In The Economist this week: "In western Germany alone since 1945, some 106,000 people have been investigated and 6,500 convicted for Nazi crimes."

That doesn't sound like "collective amnesia" to me. That sounds like a genuine attempt by a country to reconcile with it's darkest moment.

Four hundred years ago, the armies of Europe convened in what is now Germany to fight over what religion the Germany should be. In the process, 7½ million Germans (1/3 of the population at the time) were killed. How come no one ever mentions that? Is that "collective amnesia", or maybe collective denial?

Lee, fighting went on 400 years ago over religion. People were given a choice. The 12 million that died in the 1930's and 40's had no choice.

It's funny how this thread demonstrated

Godwin's Law

It's a proven fact!

:-)

The language conversation is interesting. In our school district in NJ, I have heard that their IS confusion as yo what language to offer in the lower grades where only one language is taught (K - 5th grade). Currently my 5th grade son is being taught Spanish, but my 1st grade daughter is being taught Latin (apparently because the school was not happy with vocabulary scores on the states standardized tests). In any event, being someone who loves travel & diverse cultures, I would love my children to learn a second language - any second language. But, I don't think we do a good job of teaching a second language in the US, hence hardly anyone that I know speaks a second language - unless it was learned at home via family. My son is entering 6th grade next year, and I am told he now be switching from Spanish to mandatory French (note: he barely can remember a word of Spanish). I am considering having him exempted, not because I wouldn't love to have him learn French, but because I positive he won't. I'd rather he go to a study hall and do homework or learn keyboarding during that time.