Working whilst on hols

not a chance. I work set hours and not a moment more ,I never look at emails when away and I never use my cell phone for work …………..ever, they want me to use a cell phone then they can damn well pay for it.
too many people in this world are bullied into thinking they will lose their jobs if they don't respond to things out of working hours .I don't .

Never have, never will (I'm not important enough!). But I'm not native to the US, so workaholism ins't ingrained in me. A vacation is a vacation. I don't even think about work until I'm literally back at the office.

When I go on vacation, I let everyone know I am heading to places that are "off the grid", with little or no internet connectivity. I make it very clear in my "out of the office" email auto-response and my voicemail greeting, that I will not be checking or responding to either email or voicemail while I'm away, and if they need something from me while I'm away, they can send me an email or leave me a voicemail, but I will not receive it until I return. To further drive home the point, I make the dates I'll be unavailable clear, and provide contact info for someone else who they should get in touch with while I'm away. I add that since I'll be away a while, and I typically get lots of email/voicemail, there will be a large backlog when I get back, so if they need a response quickly upon my return, they should re-send their message after I get back so I see it right away. I have found that this works well to set people's expectations appropriately.

If you are expected to respond to requests from work, you are not really on vacation.

Not a chance. I am on vacation, it can wait. And if it can't, someone else can deal with it as I would do for them if they were on vacation.

Big Mike, you are going to enjoy your vacation so much more now that you have complete freedom from work demands!
The first time I took vacation at my current job, my boss couldn't believe I was taking more than a week off AND that I was not going to be available by phone/e-mail/text the entire time. I stood firm and told him vacation time was my time ,and if there was an emergency in the office that my staff couldn't handle in my absence then I hadn't done my job in training them. Well, ten years later and the boss has now followed suit and generally makes himself unavailable while he's on hols, and more than once has thanked me for pushing him to do this.

We're only taking my wife's cell phone on our next vacation, because if I take my phone it will be impossible to ignore communication from work or other BS. I may take a tablet, probably not.

My wife is a teacher so she's not on the hook for "emergencies."

On the occasion I am hiking or camping and can't get cell reception, it's actually a very liberating feeling. Hard to describe. No Pavlovian response to the next buzz or chirp.

I've had to do a few work calls while on vacation in Europe or Japan. Let's just say I bill the client very, very aggressively for that service.

Depends on your responsibilities. I work in healthcare. The 'professionals' do some work on vacation as they would never be able to dig themselves out of the email mess if they didn't. The head of the division works on vacation, because he takes a lot of them and it's his butt in the sling when things go wrong..but he sets his hours of work....and charges them back to the business.
I am not crucial staff. I am heading out next year for a 3 week cruise with an additional week land travel. I have received the blessing of work to book 3 consecutive weeks off. I will ensure I have done all I can to set the ducks in a row before I leave, and that is that. They'll miss me but be the first to ask how my vacation is. Work/life balance is a frequent consideration for staff here.

Nada.

Vacation partially defined in Webster’s is an “extended period of leisure.”

Does not include anything to do with my work.

My time, my money, my vacation. That mindset is the only way to travel.

Unfortunately I am indispensable within my organization so I have never had the luxury of ignoring the business for 2 weeks. Generally I work 5 to 6 hours a week while on vacation. The benefit is that by doing so I worry less and can relax more.

I work a bit, at night. I clean up my emails and respond to GENUINE emergencies. Occasionally I have an update report that needs to go out over the vacation time - I have 95% ready before I leave and just plug in the latest info and hit send. No phone calls come to me, and I have auto-reply on my email. But if I went totally MIA for 2 weeks I'd be digging out of email jail for a long time.

And a lot of my job can be done remotely, all I need is internet and a phone. So if I'm low on vacation days I might do a day of work while on the trip - as a working day, I wouldn't count that as a vacation day! Say I arrive in Rome on a Saturday. I might work Monday from my hotel in Rome and officially start my vacation days on Tuesday. I do this all the time for smaller trips - going to visit my brother-in-law a few states away? Take the evening flight on a Thursday, work Friday from his house, then visit over the weekend. I vastly prefer this flexibility to being stuck in an office.

There is no benefit to you, the employee, if you work on vacation. No one employee is indispensable unless you are the owner and sole proprietor. Unfortunately, many of us have been brainwashed to think otherwise.

Where I work, each group of employees assigned to a specific client or task set can handle all of the required work even if one or two of us are on vacation (out sick, or just not at work for whatever reason). True that each of us may have greater knowledge and be able to resolve some specific issues better and faster than the rest of the team, but not so much that the customer can notice. This is the way it should be in any and every company no matter the size or business.

I have never worked in a position where I was required to be reachable while on vacation. I never will. Reinforcing that is where I have taken most of my vacation in previous years has been far enough out of touch that my cell phone had no connection! Yeah, that's it, that's the reason I didn't answer the call. Eventually, they realized they wouldn't be able to reach me anyway. Being disconnected from work while on vacation is also my requirement for those who report to me. It simply isn't a vacation if you are constantly checking emails or dreading the phone calls asking how to fix something everyone should know how to fix.

There could be a sense that if you check-in to work frequently while on vacation, you will be seen as a big time team player. You become the golden boy or girl who is a real go-getter, and totally committed to the business. The benefit to the employee is being seen as first in line for promotion.

"That guy Donald is something else. Checking in every day for his messages. That's the kind of person we need around here."

Reminds me of a couple places I've worked, where being the first to leave at the end of the day was seen as slacking, so we would sit around in front of our computers hoping someone would freaking leave so the rest of us could go. Maybe this is why the US is so productive. A nation of workaholics.

If you are working on vacation, does that imply that you are expecting staff that report to you to do the same? It becomes a vicious cycle. Model the behavior you expect. I tell my staff that financial markets will not collapse and no one will die if w don't respond immediately while on vacation. Our work involves urgencies, not emergencies. I found that it helped if I told my boss what everyone is working on while I am gone so that she knows what to expect. I mostly try to stay off of email. I confess that I sometimes sneak a peak to delete or move to a "respond later" folder.

The “golden girl or boy” who check in with the office while on holiday sounds like a suck up to me. Probably not all that popular with the rest of the staff either.

I’m lucky that we’re not allowed to log in remotely from abroad unless we get special permission and the security software has blocked my remote logins from the exotic destination of Washington DC, so I’m free of work responsibility.

I do keep an eye on the financial markets but I’ve been doing that since college.

I work as a journalist for a major news outlet, so this is a tough one to find a proper balance for me.

While I'm traveling, I keep tabs on what is going on back in my hometown. I don't respond to specific emails, but I need to keep an eye out in case anything major happens.

Lo and behold, on the day I was flying back to Pittsburgh from Spain last year, one of our synagogues was attacked by a crazed, anti-Semitic gunman. The deadliest attack in Pittsburgh history, I believe.

I didn't learn about it until my plane landed in the U.S. a few hours after the shooting. but I was immediately bombarded with a barrage of messages from both family and work. Plans had to be made on the fly on how I could pitch in once I returned to Pittsburgh.

Long story short -- I try as hard as I can to deactivate from work when I'm traveling, but the nature of my business is reacting quickly to the unexpected.

I have no contact with the office at all if I can help it. I come back to work when I told them I would. In the meantime, I don't carry any work related electronics or reading material . My smartphone has a chip with a different phone number in it. I post a little on social media but don't worry about staying up with emails from home or work.

I did get stuck in Iceland one time and was back a day late for work, so I contacted them from Iceland to let them know.

I don't even use auto-reply, for cybersecurity reasons. We get spearfishing attempts fairly regularly so I stopped doing auto-reply. If the system replies, it tells them they have found a valid email contact (and used to include phone numbers, social media links and my physical address). Now I want to see each email before allowing the system to reply. It's possible I'm unaware of an auto-reply that only responds to internal messages and ignores others?

I do freelance work so intentionally don’t take anything that overlaps with vacation. The Spousal Unit is a graphic design and photography professor on a nine month a year contract. He will do a couple hours of work a week when home for the summer-administrivia, revising courses for the school year, other professional development and such. On trips he brings the nice camera and gets some show pictures and images he uses in class lectures and demonstrations out of it

He actually gets asked to ‘work’ on vacation by many total strangers. Thry see his nice camera and assume he’s good with such things so he takes a lot of family vacation pictures with other peoples’ camera and finds himself answering questions about their camera features and how to get the best shots in a place. Fortunately he likes doing that kind of stuff

The day after Norte Dame burned, he impressed his students by getting out his personal photos of there and using them in the morning’s Photoshop lecture

Nope. But we have workaholic types (and we get 5 weeks vacation here in academia) thinking that they are indispensable never taking vacations or acting dramatic when they take time off like this University that has been around since 1867 years can't continue with out them.
But I do check emails; sometimes there is interesting news, but mostly deletions.

My husband usually works a couple of hours each day when we are on vacation. And it's not his boss that's doing this to him-in the job he's in now, he really doesn't have a direct boss(just the board, the investers, the FDA). And when he works 12 or once even 18 days straight without a day off, he refuses to take comp time for the missed weekends. Oh well, at least he gets air miles and hotel points.

I used to (only half jokingly) say vacations for me meant working in a hotel room with a nice view. I'd regularly check emails at night, check company messaging apps, and stay in close contact with everyone back at the office.

I had to ween myself off that habit, though - work wasn't requiring it per se, and it was mostly my own doing that brought it on. I'd be hesitant to delegate certain things, actually quite enjoy the job and the "heat of battle", so to speak, and never wanted to be left out of the proverbial loop. Stepping back from that approach is something that took actual effort. The first vacation that put me really off the grid was a cruise - internet was so bad on the ship, so expensive, and occasionally nonexistent on sea days that I couldn't do a bunch of work if I tried (and... yes... I admit I tried). Returning from the vacation to find out the entire company didn't burn down, we hadn't gone out of business, and my coworkers back at the office hadn't all gone wild and turned on each other in some brutal Lord of the Flies-esque fashion made me realize I could actually take the odd vacation and the world would continue spinning.

Mind you, vacations still don't mean being able to just disappear. They involve prep work beforehand - certain tasks need to be handed off to others, projects wrapped up ahead of time or moved until after I return, and I make it a point to get ahead on things so no one back at the office is waiting on me for anything while I'm gone. There's never going to be a total disconnection - I like to know what's going on, keep an eye on things, and respond to emails that are important enough. The extra work involved leading up to and immediately after a vacation by no means cancels out the value of that predominantly work-free vacation time, though.

Never taken a vacation without a phone and a laptop. I usually put in an hour or two in the morning before my wife is awake and will check emails occasionally during the day. I actually prefer this rather than being off the grid. I find it more relaxing to know things are under control and definitely more relaxing when I get back and not have 1-2 weeks of paperwork to push through. It just works for me.

Interesting that those who turn off their job when they leave the office dont just promote their lifestyle and ethics, but are critical of those that dont think like they do. Hmmmm, tolerance? Cultural diversity? Guess not.

I sort of appreciate the coworker who wants to help his buddies. Those "golden boys" are called "boss" later in life. But there is plenty of room in the work force for the 9 to 5ers who flick the job off at the end of the day. Good and not so good about both ways of living. Do what speaks to you and own the result. It's a terrific country for differences.

I work some on longer US vacations (the annual 2-week family trip to Cape Cod often requires a few mornings of work each week), but on international vacations I only check on my phone for emergencies or urgent matters a few minutes each day. I am expected to be available in case of emergency, but people don't abuse that, and I have 5 weeks vacation, so I'm ok with it. I don't take a laptop for international trips.

I sort of appreciate the coworker who wants to help his buddies. Those "golden boys" are called "boss" later in life.

In the end no one says I wish I had help my "buddies at work" while I was on vacation with my family instead of spending more time with my family. No one is indispensable as the great leaders or bosses know how and can cultivate someone to delegate stuff to

Cannot recall when and where I read the observation Americans live to work, Italians work to live but it stuck in my psyche.

So did the reality that I could die tomorrow and work would go on.

Only a cog so when I can travel I do so to live.

This depends on what level you are in the company, industry, and many other variables. I work in high tech on the west coast and I have never been in a situation where my boss insisted that I be available while on vacation. My auto reply reads "I will not be checking email during this time. Contact my manager with emergencies". If I was a VP making $600K per year, sure I would check in. I gather you are not at that level, so this is clearly out of bounds.

I'll regularly check in with friends and family back home when traveling, post pics for them to see on social media, or check in with whoever's watching my pets. It's not that difficult to check emails and work messages real quick while at it, and make a judgement call regarding which ones need a response or which ones can wait; it's not too difficult to send myself notes for work ideas I've had when traveling; it's not difficult to check in with coworkers and see how they're doing. Similarly, for some it might not be too difficult to do none of that, and detach entirely. It depends on your job. I don't think it's fair to peg someone as a lifeless workaholic drone or a careless layabout either way.

I don't believe the only options are to deny yourself relaxation time and tirelessly work while on vacation, or abandon all thought of work entirely when on vacation.

Plus... some folks might like the job they have! If you like your coworkers, believe in what you're doing, find your job intellectually fulfilling and feel invested in it, I don't think it's necessarily a character defect to wanna stay involved while traveling anymore than it's a character defect to enjoy and appreciate the opportunity to disconnect and recharge and spend time with family or yourself.

In the end no one says I wish I had help my "buddies at work" while I
was on vacation with my family instead of spending more time with my
family.

No one? That’s sort pretentious to say isn’t it? How about you just say you don’t care and accept that others might. Geeee, we are turning into a very intolerant society. If I don’t do it no one should and if they do they are butt kissers or golden boys or being criminal with their family. How about they just don’t share your values? Without judgment.

Plus... some folks might like the job they have! If you like your
coworkers, believe in what you're doing, find your job intellectually
fulfilling and feel invested in it, I don't think it's necessarily a
character defect to wanna stay involved while traveling anymore than
it's a character defect to enjoy and appreciate the opportunity to
disconnect and recharge and spend time with family or yourself.

Wise words. I am fortunate enough to work in a place that is full of people who for the most part fit your description. Most employees contribute to each other, cover for them, and pull together even after hours to help meet the goals that make the company healthy and their paychecks more secure. AND no, the company does not require it and does not punish for not doing it. But a team attitude does generally result in you being more valuable and that results in more money, more freedom and more barganing power with the boss.

Me, most evenings on vacation I will spend an hour or so sitting in a wine bar, watching people and talking to the staff …………. While on the lap top doing a little work. Its relaxing and it prevents me from worrying about whats going on in the office. Adds to the relaxation.

I don't see anything posted here that is critical of others who choose not to disconnect from work while on vacation. Opinions were stated about why being disconnected works best, some strongly probably by those who previously found themselves on the other side of the situation, nothing more. If any of my comments came across that way, I sincerely did not mean to.

In my industry, I actually have no choice in the matter. It is part of US federal law that I and everyone who works with me in the entire company, takes a minimum of 14 consecutive days away from the office with no contact with anyone there each calendar year. Failure to do so requires extensive documentation to government agencies who don't like excuses. This means no work laptop to check email. No work cell phone to check in to see if things are running fine. No personal calls to just check in. And no one has any issues with that. This is partly why I have remained in this business line instead of moving to something else.

The company continues to work smoothly as we each take our vacations. Sometimes it is not easy. Of course you have to hand off projects and problems to a coworker or 2 when you are going away. I wouldn't expect anything else and gladly accept work from those who choose me to cover for them. I feel that those I work with perform better, work harder, and have more interest in the success of the company when they get their uninterrupted vacations.

Maybe I am just lucky that I don't feel any need to worry about what is going on in the office because I know things will be handled and no one will be dragged over the coals looking to assign blame if there are problems.

While I am at work, I spend an enormous part of my day working with others when they need help, and have done so since I started with this company 20 years ago.. Nothing fits into a simple 9 to 5 schedule. I am on call 24 x 7 including holidays (except when I am on vacation). I have also managed to rise to a position where I am called "boss" and have a fairly nice 6 figure salary and I get to travel on the corporate jet these days. And I still enjoy my disconnected vacations.

I am indispensable within my organization

Go tell your boss if he does not immediately double your pay, you will leave. You will soon discover if you are 'indispensable'. (If you get the raise you will be paid more in line with your worth)

When on vacation, I 'cut the cord'.

Nothing negative? Hey, I would appreciate an argument that esposes the health advantages or enjoyment or state of mind or importance of family time. That would cause people to think and maybe reevaluate. I always worry when someone tries to rise up by putting someone else down. Interesting those that do work a little on vacation had nothing negative to say about the ones that don’t.

But I'm not native to the US, so workaholism ins't ingrained in me.

So, checking your email in the morning makes you a workaholic? That’s a label it and trash it technique when you don’t have an argument.

Unfortunately, many of us have been brainwashed

Diagnose it as devient and dismiss it accordingly

It simply isn't a vacation if you are constantly checking emails or
dreading the phone calls asking how to fix something everyone should
know how to fix.

A personal choice or comfort stated as fact. Properly stated would be It simply isn’t a vacation FOR ME if I AM constantly. ... To assume everyone finds comfort in the same way as you shows an inability to accept personal and cultural differences

You become the golden boy or girl who is a real go-getter,

The “golden girl or boy” who check in with the office while on holiday
sounds like a suck up to me. Probably not all that popular with the
rest of the staff either.

Just a crass insult thrown at someone who doesn’t conform to your norm. Sounds a little like fear of being made to look inferior.

Maybe this is why the US is so productive. A nation of workaholics.

Labeling again. I dont want to do it, and I dont want to look inferior, so I will lable it so it can be dismissed

Maybe it's a control or ego thing.

Now lets demonize those that don’t share a particular belief system.

But we have workaholic types (and we get 5 weeks vacation here in
academia) thinking that they are indispensable never taking vacations
or acting dramatic when they take time off

More crassness, or maybe just personal insecurity. Who knows. Maybe their "drama" is concern; shall we judge if their concern is well placed? And if it isnt well placed, then lets condem them for their good intentions.

In the end no one says I wish I had help my "buddies at work" while I
was on vacation with my family instead of spending more time with my
family.

Again, creating a false social norm to dismiss those that have differing cultural norms.

Go tell your boss if he does not immediately double your pay, you will
leave. You will soon discover if you are 'indispensable'. (If you get
the raise you will be paid more in line with you worth)

I was just using the term that was being thrown around. Few are actually indespensible in that without them the world would end. But many are indispensible in that without them eveyone's year end bonus will be smaller. Its all a matter of personal values and balancing life to get the most enjoyment out of it. Eveyones standards and needs are different. I work a little harder, but as a result now I get more time off and I have more money to enjoy the time off. I made deliberate choices; but I have zero issues with people who made different choices. I am no more a brain washed, ass kissing workaholic than you are a lazy parasitic slacker. We all make choices and live with the results. Within certin limits, no right and no wrong.

I think ultimately it's worth keeping in mind there are countless people out there happily existing in a manner we can't fathom existing ourselves.

Not asked to and don't check work email. And thank goodness. Last week while I was in Rome funding dried up for my position. I had no idea and am glad I didn't. I had a lovely time, flew home Friday, and my union president called me Saturday. So glad I didn't know!

James E, whilst you are complaining about the insults being thrown
around you are doing a pretty good job at throwing insults back in the
opposite direction.

Emma, could you be specific please?

I have worked in very male environments and it always amazed me how
many seemed to have nothing outside of work.

Excellent, now we have gender sterotyping. My work environment is about 55% female and those with the most overtime are all women; substantially so. But that's probably just coincidence. I tend not to examine such issues on the basis of gender. A couple of them play golf too. I think the old work place sterotypes are about dead. At least in the private sector where I live. Good thing too.

You are amazed how many seem to have nothing outside of work? Maybe it seems that way because they don't share your values and possibly it doesn't seem to them that you have anything outside of one pursuit or another.

I certainly have the problem addressed so well by Emma. Work is in my DNA; what am I to do? I'm now wrapping up my 40th year of the grind. I see my retired neighbor putzing around his house and yard, playing golf every day (or whatever), and think, "That's not for me."

If anyone feels they are indispensable to their workplace it might be time to reevaluate priorities. When JFK was assassinated the world kept spinning, and thus it will be for each of us. But then again what's wrong with one's work being an integral part of their lives? Maybe they find it rewarding and feel a sense of accomplishment. Being a workaholic is a different matter, where working is having a negative impact on the lives of not just the worker, but those close to them. Is it a problem if you're working 40 hours per week, with weekends, hols, and evenings at home? I'd think not. That seems like a good work/life balance.

The cliche is true that few if any people on their deathbed regret not completing one more contract, sending another e-mail, or filing a paper. Now, not visiting those places you've dreamed of seeing for years, with loved ones or alone, is something else indeed.

At the risk of stereotyping I'll share what I've observed in Europe -- as an aggregate -- compared to the good ole USA.

Europeans in general seem to have a much healthier work/life balance. They work hard and play hard, so to speak. I envied and admired that attitude. It seemed... mentally and physically healthier.

Americans tend to value the hard-driving worker who is not constrained by the 40 hour week. As one boss said, "We work until the job is done," which still entailed a bare minimum of 40 hours. The Puritan work ethic, what have you. If it's 1700 and you're walking out the door when unfulfilled tasks are due, well, that's not going to cut it in any place I've worked. Heck, back in my Air Force days working 16-plus hours was not uncommon. It was duty, not the clock, that mattered. Nobody is forcing you to work there, and if you don't like it then find a job where you are limited to 40 or less hours.

James E. - on tolerance. I agree there have been a lot of generalizations and tropes thrown around on this thread about "workaholism" and the like. However, just because posters are not trotting out data from articles read or reports doesnt mean that they dont have a ton of anecdotal data that has accrued to form the impressions stated here (perhaps too officiously, perhaps who cares). I suspect that many of us have developed a certain outlook about working "too much" or work vs. family time through many conversations with family and peers, through articles and books read, NPR stories listened to, etc etc. For jazz from Chicago to say that some of his colleagues take time off dramatically, well, I assumed he could back that up with a description of the drama (not the I want or need it). I also couldn't help thinking of the many articles and interviews and comments Ive heard over the years (and the years of personal child-rearing experience) telling me that people wished they had spent more time with their children or families rather than worked more, or that it is detrimental to children when their parents work a lot in lieu of spending time with them. Not to mention mental health statistics associated with "overwork", or the tacit pressure to put in hours (like, when you're supposed to be on vacation). This is probably where the generalizations here are coming from. Can I pull up a quote, sure. Do I want to spend my time digging for some. Nope. I can say that I think most parents do not spend enough time with their kids, due to many reasons including financial pressures and the fact that, frankly work can be more immediately fulfilling than hanging out with a teen (although the relationship over time is more fulfilling based, again, on the comments one hears in stories from elders).
So sure, tolerance is vital and generalizations dont help build understanding, but here's a generalization: some people give too much attention to work - for various reasons - when they should be giving it to their families. Outside of those relationships, work as much or little as is fulfilling to you. It can be very satisfying, unless its not.

I'm with James on this one. His posts are quite reasonable, and his appeal for tolerance for differences of opinion is the right approach. It seems like some folks are trying awfully hard to justify their position and don't realize how their own posts come across to others.

Emma is always the soul of tact, clear thinking and good reasoning.

I think ultimately it's worth keeping in mind there are countless people out there happily existing in a manner we can't fathom existing ourselves.

That's a good point. I think the original question and most of the responses have been about and from people who work in a white collar office position based on computers and emails. Whereas I'd guess most people in the US have jobs that can only be done while physically present.

I agree with Emma about the work ethic in the UK, but based on comments from a doctor we know in France, there is a work ethic issue in France as manifested in its labor laws and in the early retirement ages in some European countries-I think Greece was especially bad in this respect, but maybe they have changed since their financial debacle. And I do think that capitalism, in terms of the amount of work hours expected by many organizations in the US, including the school I taught in, has gotten out of hand in many employment sectors. Male school administrators didn't realize that women teachers had another shift of work when they got home from school, partly because of husbands who buy into the workaholic ethic at their own jobs. And in my husband's field, many women find it difficult to advance in academia because of the unrealistic expectations, which partly explains the low representation of women in science fields that was a point of discussion in the US several years ago. I agree with those on this forum(Jazz+travels) who think it's wrong when people don't feel they can take a real vacation.

Emma, you accused me of being insulting. Your demonstration of that was to say that I argue aggressively. Being aggressive is subjective, but even if true isn't "insulting". I would say that my arguments were somewhat less aggressive than a lot of the comments that you appear to agree with. I'm sorry, but you choose to throw out a label rather than discuss merits. For the klaxon thing. To be honest, I didnt recognize what you were trying to say. I understand it now. Still over generalizations and stereotyping, even with self identification of such only provide cover for much more egregious forms of discrimination . Just my opinion.

Otherwise, Now it's a great discussion!

When drawing comparisons between the US and other countries, just keep in mind that there are tradeoffs for every decision. Too often it is assumed we can take the best from every culture with out experiencing the negative ramifications that those decisions created. It's why travel can be so informing if you sit back and look at the big picture Informed people it is hoped will make better decisions.

"Otherwise, Now it's a great discussion!"

Speaking of subjective.

Ok James; I was just being flippant.

I think most of us are closer to the mature age, IMO. I think younger people in fact know they are 'dispensable' and that is why they are willing to put in some work time while on vacation. There are plenty of other young people who want their jobs and are willing to work during vacations if that will help them get the job and/or keep it.

I agree with James on this discussion. We do what we need to do to survive. Walk in another's shoes for a bit...

I'm sure glad I retired in 2004, before I had a cell phone and long before I had a tablet. I don't know how I'd handle today's work world where it seems like people are, or feel like they are, always on call.

I have known people in more than one job who've worked overtime without compensation, arrived early and stayed late, or had special skills others lacked, and it didn't make any difference when their company or governmental world changed around them. They weren't kept around any longer than those who hadn't shown their loyalty in those ways or lacked that expertise.

Someone at my last place of employment typically took 3 week vacations. She told me that it took her that long to get any rest before she started anticipating going back to work with joy or dread, depending on what was waiting for her there.

We were expected to work extra before and after our vacations to make up for being gone. That essentially took away a lot of the vacation time we had.

The "we" I'm talking about were "exempt" employees. That means we were salaried and exempt from getting overtime pay and some other benefits that hourly, non-exempt workers got.

It also means that the boss could expect us to regularly stay late. Having been reminded by someone at a very high level in a previous job that every extra hour you work lowers your hourly wage, I tried my best to avoid that uncompensated overtime.

The only sure way to do that was to join an official carpool, which was being promoted by the state and the company. Like many of my colleagues, that's what I did.

I enjoyed the work and was happy in my job. When I was there, I was truly there, and my boss even said I was the most productive person on her staff. But when I was gone, I was definitely gone.

I recently stepped down from a management position (11 years of tedium and endless troop-rallying--though I never had to worry on my annual 2 week vacations because they did what they were supposed to) and then right back up into one--that I LOVE--where I have actually a lot more responsibilities but supervise only myself. My 2 week vacation that starts next week is covered, but I will need to get someone trained if I want to go anywhere for more than a week next year. My work friends know not to disturb me while I am gadding about Europe, and this vacation in particular is very much needed to blow away some lingering stuff in my mind. I can see where a business owner etc might need to stay connected, but for me it's auto-reply for the win.

Unfortunately, some employers see both young and not-young as "dispensable", and both work while on vacation. This is not solely a young person thing. If someone is forced out of the workforce after 50, they have much more to lose than any young person. They may never get employed again, or it may take a really long time. They'll have to use their financial resources to pay for healthcare until they are eligible Medicare, and that's an expensive proposition. "More mature" people have more responsibility and clout at work, so it's not hard to see why they stay connected just as their peers or bosses do. Plus, some feel more sense of ownership than others, some want to be available and responsive to their clients and team, and some may be Type A personalities who like to control everything even when not there...it's all over the board.

I have never understood why so may US workers put up with the 10 day
annual leave allowance

The short answer is that not all employees are in the driver's seat, and employers have a lot of leverage here due to lack of regulations on sick leave and vacation. There is no standard vacation time, it may be even less than 10 days or much more. There is a huge variance by industry, organization, and demand and supply for certain skills. For low(er) skilled work, is a job with 10 days off worse or better than no job at all from the perspective of a job seeker?

Walk in another's shoes for a bit...

Excellent advice

For each of us at the individual level, I'd imagine only we can know what works best for us. At the macro level, the US is certainly quite different from many countries in Europe when it comes to vacation time, parental leave, worker protections and such. I don't want to venture too far off in to those weeds as we'd then definitely be in political discussion territory, beyond just saying I think many countries in Europe have what I find to be very spot-on, reasonable, rational work/vacation laws and policies that coexist well with high productivity and prosperity. There is more than just anecdotal evidence 4 day work weeks make a lot of sense, and result in employees being far more productive through 4 days than employees at other places are in 5 days for instance.

There are certainly unhealthy work environments here - places where people are pressured in to not taking vacation time, retaliated against for doing so, and are likely putting in so many hours on so many days it's unhealthy for them and might even be counterproductive for their employer; that doesn't have to translate in to anyone here working in such a place, or any of us knowing someone else's circumstances. Just because someone works a bit while on vacation doesn't necessarily mean they work in such a toxic place.

My two cents.
I work in health care. I am currently an employee not a business owner. I am well compensated, but I do not get "vacation pay", my pay is based on productivity. I am allowed to be away from work for 30 work days/year, plus most holidays plus 5 days of conference. No one asks me to be available while I am on vacation. My peers that I cover when they are on vacation are not available.

When I am on vacation, my cell phone is always on. When in Europe I keep my phone on and pay Verizon $10/day for the privilege. I speak with my right hand woman once a day on weekdays for about 10-15 minutes. Occasionally she will text me a question outside of that conversation. I don't have to do this, I do it because I like things to be done my way and I don't want to have a lot of work waiting for me when I get home. I might have a "work addiction" but to me it is irrelevant, my life is well organized. I seldom work over 50 hours per week and most days I am home by 4:00 in the afternoon.

One of my peers is upset that I do this. It only makes her job easier while I am gone, but she feels guilty that she goes off grid. I don't need her to feel that way. I don't mind covering for her while she is gone.

The trouble on this thread is that people are in different situations. I was happy to read James E.'s posts because I felt he was standing up for my situation. I definitely felt that some of the comments he listed were judgmental of my choices. I think that it is an important reminder that putting down another way of doing things might have consequences that one did not intend.

I make assumptions and predictions every day that are based on my past experiences. If it has to do with physics or another natural phenomenon (every time I let go of my pen it falls to the ground), it is a valid way of responding to the universe. If it is about human behavior, I don't think it is a good idea because that means you are judging the next person before you know them. This is the basis of intolerance and misunderstanding. It is a very slippery slope.

If someone is forced out of the workforce after 50, they have much more to lose than any young person. They may never get employed again, or it may take a really long time.

Something I found quite interesting was when visiting a company in Berlin that I do some work with on occasion. In just touring their offices and talking about their business on the visit, I learned the law there required, if and when a company had to let someone go or downsize, they were required to retain the oldest worker in the position and lay off the younger. I'm sure there is more nuance to it but, in essence, if you had two people in the same role and wanted to trim your workforce down to only having a single person, the younger one had to go. The reason why is precisely what you mention - laws take in to account the younger person will have an easier time finding a new job and be more employable. As an American, it initially struck me as quite wild such a thing would be legislated and required of employers (along with other things like the requirement everyone in the office have access to outside sunlight from their workstation). It didn't take much to think about it some more, though, and see the sound reasoning behind it. Further, people at this company seemed quite happy and eager to work, and on the whole Germany isn't known for not being efficient and productive!

At my own company I helped implement vacation policies designed to encourage people to actually use their vacation time. To avoid people feeling pressured to work on vacation, not taking their PTO, or feeling like they couldn't get away once in awhile, we simply put in place designated vacation periods throughout the year - extended weekends and even the occasional whole week where the company just shuts down, doors are locked, and everyone gets PTO (big holiday weeks, for instance, and other periods throughout the year). People still get some flex PTO to use as needed, but a bulk of the near 30 days per year we get off fall during these company-wide PTO periods. Of course, we're an internet company and there are circumstances unique to us that allow us to do this, but it's been a great way to go. No one has people back at the office calling and texting them or is left feeling like they simply can't get away when the whole office is closed :)

How did it work before the invention of the internet, mobile phones, email, lap tops etc?

What is this ancient time of which you speak? ;)

It does bring to mind the teasing I like to subject friends to when they get issued a laptop at work - good luck ever taking a vacation!

Your point's a fair one, though - there was a time we couldn't really go off the grid because no such grid existed! And that time was not too long ago. Heck, even with laptops and smartphones and... I think they called them... "black berries"... ? It could be difficult to impossible to stay connected - accessible wifi wasn't ubiquitous, data roaming cost a stack of doubloons and your first born, and if you were able to send or receive a text while abroad they'd burn you for being a witch. One couldn't work when on vacation anyways, because they could not bring the quarry with them! ;)

But seriously, your point's a fair one! There may be more dynamics to it - an increase in passport issuance and international travel coinciding with advances in technology, and many developed countries also becoming more services-based rather than manufacturing based, for instance.

I genuinely don't understand why the situation is allowed and why
staff tolerate it.

I don't know how else I can explain it differently than I already did. Absent of top down federal regulation that dictates the amount of leave provided, employers have a lot of leeway and can do the absolute minimum. What I think you're getting at is you are bewildered that employees don't unionize or stand up or demand certain things from their employer. The ones who are unionized or don't risk getting fired already do that. But don't expect yellow vest type of protests here (yet) across the board. Employers who seek top talent offer much better leave to attract better workers, but many high-skilled workers here are conditioned not to even spend their full allotted vacation (even 5 weeks or so). Yes, by choice or pressure or whatever. You can be as outraged as you like. Lower-level employees are not in a great position to demand their "rights" since vacation time isn't even an enshrined right. I wouldn't count on the (relatively) more economically disadvantaged to be the foot soldiers for your cause to enlighten everyone else how bad they have it (most already know).

As for how did things change...I'm not an old person in the least, but did you consider globalization, improved technologies, more intense competition, higher expectations from customers/clients/public, and greater automation as some of the factors that would change the parameters for employee performance? Technology alone has made it easier to communicate in real time. So people will communicate differently with the improved tools. Just like people here can't imagine leaving their cell at home when they travel. The world HAS changed dramatically since the pre-internet era, and there's no going back. Companies have to compete in the here-and-now, not in the past. Private companies are no longer sheltered or protected from competing either regionally or worldwide, so businesses are constantly trying to reap more productivity out of the workforce. Even government and non-profit workers (who are isolated from market forces) have to deal with expectations they haven't had before - mostly all sorts of performance metrics, reporting, greater accountability, etc.

Fortunately I don't have any jurisdiction to arrest anyone outside of the UK. The only time I'm going to be expected to work abroad is if the force is paying me to travel, the local police arrest the suspect and all I do is accompany him (nearly always a him) on the flight back to the UK.

I've heard many stories of colleagues travelling to the US for a couple of days and being treated extraordinarily well by their American counterparts, above and beyond what would be expected in any 'normal' business encounter however my experience has sadly been the suspect waiting upon my arrival and a quick turnaround on the next flight, no bar crawls, strip clubs or helicopter flights for me.

Although I do recall one colleague who travelled to the US to collect a paedophile suspect and he was asked by the officers if he wanted the suspect "roughed up a bit" before they handed him over! A quick discussion between the differences in prisoner treatment took place and a relieved suspect was swiftly taken into custody.

I'd be OK with roughing up that type of criminal.

The comparison between how great it is to work in Europe vs how bad it is to work in the US comes up often. The Yellow Vests in Paris wont necessarily agree with that premis, nor would the tens of thousands of protesters in Budapest a few weeks ago. Must not be too bad here, as we arent burning tires in the streets yet.

And the US vacation average is 15 days after 5 years on the job and 20 days after 10 years. Most certainly less than a lot of Europe, but then we value our 2,500 sf houses on a private lot with a garden and a yard while Europeans appear to be happy with 800 sf with no garden or yard. Its all about choices.

Jessica, yes, it was subjective. But it turned from name calling to thinking. I dont have a personal need to agree to enjoy a good argument.

What I have found really interesting is the work ethic of the foreign nationals in my work place. They are absolutely driven by the prospect of excelling to advancment. But they are predominately South American, North African and Middle Eastern so I have not idea how that applies to Europeans....

What did i do in the "good old days", I carried a bunch of paper on vacation and spent a lot of time on the phone. Its a lot easier now and more productive so requiring less time out of the vacation period.

You can understand why manager and business owners might want to work on vacation. Did you ever consider that maybe many of them became managers and business owners by working on vacaton?

I'd be OK with roughing up that type of criminal.

He was found not guilty at court. Whether that means he was or wasn't responsible for the alleged crimes is anyone's guess but I prefer to let justice take its course rather than mete out my own but I understand your sentiment, I just wanted to illustrate that it's not always so black and white.

And the US vacation average is 15 days after 5 years on the job and 20 days after 10 years. Most certainly less than a lot of Europe, but then we value our 2,500 sf houses on a private lot with a garden and a yard while Europeans appear to be happy with 800 sf with no garden or yard. Its all about choices.

I have a four bedroomed house (not sure of the square footage but it's quite large) and a huge garden and driveway plus (when I was in the police) I enjoyed 30 days annual leave not including bank holidays. So it's not all small apartments with no gardens and generous annual leave in Europe. Although apartment living is common in the major cities but once out in the suburbs and more rural areas the houses and land are larger. Take NYC for example, not exactly known for its large detached houses and large gardens is it?

JC, even I fall into traps. Cause none of us are average.
Because of the business I am in I track this sort of stuff, and average isn’t median. Here are some statistics.
https://www.which.co.uk/news/2018/04/shrinking-homes-the-average-british-house-20-smaller-than-in-1970s/

It really not a criticism or a judgment or anything of that sort. Right now I have a 3500 sf house on an acre of land. I prefer my 700 sf apartment in Budapest. It is geniunely more comfortable.

I didnt take any offense. Its really just a cultural difference and one of thousands of cultural markers. The point is that you cant change one factor without affecting a lot of other factors. Even thats not a statement of good or bad, just a realization that its not possible to have your cake and eat it too. So, to get more time off, what would we be willing to give up? Figure that out and I will be really happy, cause I want more time off too.....

Emma, I'll try to answer without being overly political. There are bitter inter and intra country divisions about the proper role of government and what people commonly call "the social contract" with the populace. Every country has a different understanding about what things are best left to the private sector, and what things belong to the public sector. The US has employed a market competition philosophy to attain an optimal level (of whatever policy) over that of regulation, and politicians largely refrain from interfering in the market unless there is persuasive evidence of market failure (and even then, there is a lot of foot dragging). We have a highly individualistic culture based on property rights, rule of law, and free speech (which includes political contributions and heavy-duty lobbying). That's why we don't even have a set paid maternity leave (even calling it that is really "retro" as if parenting is only done by the Mother). And not all employers are mandated to provide healthcare to employees, small ones get to opt out. No universal coverage. And certainly no vacation standards. We also have a strong influence of money and pay-to-play in our political system to a degree that other (non-corrupt) countries wouldn't tolerate. Regulation typically follows after something horrible has come to pass that draws attention to some deplorable condition (like the Triangle Factory Shirtwaist fire). Right now we have a "leader" who is engaged in regulatory rollback (prior regulations put in place in the previous administration) and ensuring that the so-called conservative philosophy of limited government is represented as much as possible in the judicial branch. So there's our political culture in a nutshell. I think people have to tolerate and "make do" with things they either can't control or they have no better alternative. There is power in numbers, but the culture of collective action to inspire change is uneven. People are disgusted with politicians and know the social contract is broken, so they just tune out.

On another topic posted by James, the suggested correlation between the size of one's house and vacation time is really an oddball. Housing size and prices are more of a function of land use, zoning, land cost, and demand - and there is wide variation in a country as big as the US, and across Europe. Not everyone shares the value of a giant suburban or rural house or is incentivized to work overtime to attain one. That's a stereotype. Generally speaking, vacation time is more correlated with skill set, value to the company, competitive environment within an industry, seniority, or work in the public or non-profit sector where there's a salary and fringe benefit trade-off.

The thing about vacations or holidays in the US is no one, except government employees, is guaranteed any paid time off at all. There is no law or even suggestion that employers pay their employees for even the Federal holidays. We do get paid for them in most industries simply because if one employer didn't pay, another would and the one not paying would have a difficult time attracting workers.

I enjoy 30 days of paid time off (used as either sick time for short illnesses or vacation) plus 10 Federal paid days where I work. That is only because it is expected in my industry and it is only recently we received all 10 Federal days. If I have an extended illness, I have bought insurance that will pay me close to my salary until I can return to work. My employer also offers paid time to assist with ill family members (a restricted list) and to assist after your child is born. Both of these are rare in the US.

I started working in grocery stores way back when I was still in High school and vacation was never more than 10 days a year with around 6 Federal days paid. Still is. Even worse are many of the restaurants which give employees pay for Christmas, and Thanksgiving yet still make them work those days. They end up with extra in their pay, but no real paid time off. Any time they want off is without pay.

Until the US government passes legislation requiring paid time off, this is as good as it will ever be.

Now, the proper term is "paternity" leave...that's what my last company called it and they were ahead of their time. Dads got time off in the case of a newborn, as they should.

Maternity falls under Medical and is covered by most employers. Paternity is what I was mentioning previously.

Even between EU countries differences in terms of work related benefits are quite noticeable.

Ask someone who has worked in both France and Germany to hear of these differences and of the two, which is more preferable.

Numerous French drive over to Germany to work and drive back at the end of the day. say, the guy lives in Colmar but works in Freiburg.

Use a carrier pigeon in wartime.

Agnes, beautifully put.

Yes, housing is sort of oddball and I don't mean that there is a 1 to 1 correlation, just a tangible example of cultural choices. If you were to go to Budapest and talk to a banker the gentleman would be familiar in appearance, politeness, professionalism and you would think that the only difference between the US and Hungary is that the Hungarians have dang good socialized medical care. Now follow that gentleman for a day and you quickly realize that their state is substantially different. Not bad, just different. My point is, dont believe all the great stuff we want doesn't come with out tradeoffs some place else. But you know that. I am preaching to the choir. Our current state of affairs reflects our unique value system. Until the value system changes, and I'm not saying it should, not much will change unless a minority finds a way to impose their values on the majority. And here lately that beginning to look possible.

Emma, your implied answer is absolutely correct.

Businesses and other organizations did not fall apart when anyone was gone. I don't know about many other people, but for me and most of my co-workers, we were not expected to call in or maintain any kind of connection to our places if employment. The ability to do that was nearly impossible anyway.

The closest to doing that I remember from the 60's and 70's was an attorney friend who constantly contacted his answer service when he went anywhere, even in town. Sounds sort of like folks who constantly check their cell phones these days.

I had the good fortune to work for the U.S. Army in the early 80's, stationed in the Nürnberg Military Community. Of course, as a U.S. government employee I received almost the same benefits as if I was working in the States. But I learned a lot about the way things worked in Germany from the many German workers we had on our military facilities there.

You might be interested in the details of how annual and sick leave are earned and used by U.S. Federal Employees. This is the primary source for that. I'm including the links because they illustrate what I think are our weaknesses on these very important quality of life issues and may give some hints on the leading example for why we get so little vacation time.

Ordinary workers like I was, earn annual leave at a rate of 4 hours per 2 week pay period or 13 days per year for the first 3 years. After 3 years, the rate is 6 hours per pay period or 20 days per year. After 15 years it is 8 hours per pay period or 26 days per year. That's the max.

You can carry over 30 days to the next leave year if you're working in the States and 45 days if you're working overseas. This is called the leave ceiling. It is use or lose. Any accrued annual leave in excess of the ceiling is lost if not used by the final day of the leave year. You can receive pay for accrued annual leave up to the ceiling when you no longer work for the Federal Government.

Sick leave rules are similar but not exactly the same and a lot more detailed.

It is accrued at 4 hours per pay period no matter the length of service. There are no limits on how much you can accrue, but you lose it all when you leave Federal employment. It can be used for a variety of reasons beyond your own illness, but there are some limitations.

Sick Leave Usage Limits per Leave Year

No limitation for an employee's own personal medical needs.

Up to 13 days (104 hours) of sick leave for general family care and bereavement. Be sure to click on this link at the website for definitions of what is included here. Especially compared to what I learned in Scandinavia last year, this is particularly weak.

Up to 12 weeks (480 hours) of sick leave to care for a family member with a serious health condition.

I very carefully used up all my annual leave before I left the Feds, but I had over 300 hours of unused sick leave left over after 3 1/2 years there.

I have enjoyed this discussion immensely and can see both sides. I however, am an off the grid person when I am on vacation, but not for any of the reasons you have all discussed. Jessica is the only one (that I remember reading) that touched on the subject of family. When I am on vacation it is to fully engage and reconnect with the people I am with, especially my family who has sacrificed so much over the years as I and my husband worked our long hours. Nothing can replace the memories we have shared as a family and my daughters will often say how much they loved our vacations and the time we spent together creating those memories.

To also take it from the perspective of the one that is with the person checking their email and staying “connected” to home, I have also traveled occasionally with a friend that does this. It is frustrating to me to be in a beautiful place, trying to enjoy the present and having the person I am with checking in at work. I also find it disrespectful, but then again, I find it disrespectful when people are on their phones in restaurants and in grocery checkout lines. Just trying to present another perspective.

I have never worked during a vacation and never will. That is my choice and how I want my life to be.

I am in a unique position that my job needs me more than I need it (I could find another one easily in my profession; for what it is worth I had the same job for 11 years), and I worked hard to make it that way. So frankly my dear, your emergency, I don't give a d...

In January 1979 (I know it's 40 years ago) I was offered a job at an insurance company, Southern company, where I got off on the legal holidays, had 5 days of sick leave (don't remember that exactly), had a three month probation period but no vacation days for the first 12 months.

So, instead of getting, say 3- five vacation days after 6 months, it was none at all until the 12 month anniversary.

Just to further split a hair above....Child Birth falls under medical. (As would a miscarriage)
Maternity/paternity leave is also available for adoption, by some employers for the placement of a foster child or if you suddenly were getting custody of a grandchild, etc.
Years ago I was the birth coach for a friend/coworker who was relinquishing a baby for adoption (this was so long ago our Natural Child Birth Educator consistently used the word Husband and we had to consistently ask her to use the word Coach) (another classmate was being coached by her mother)
Anyway, after my friend birthed and relinquished the baby, she did take the standard amount of birth leave offered by our employer, even though a few of our coworkers sniped & groused about it.

Personally, I try to maintain a good boundary while on vacation, but some folk from work might send texts and voice messages..... which I ignore for the most part. I get 20 paid days of vacation.... but our office remains open most Federal Mondays. .........
Another thing that might be interesting to our friends overseas, Some large employers may allow people to "donate " vacation days/sick days to a coworker who is faced with a significant illness or other catastrophe. This amounts to them getting even more paid time off . This leaves their insurance premium, etc intact if it comes thru their employer.

This is a good article about the ever lengthening working hours and expectations for being available around the clock, especially for certain professions (which happen to be pretty lucrative, but not so great work-life balance):

New York Times
"Women Did Everything Right. Then Work Got ‘Greedy.’ How America’s obsession with long hours has widened the gender gap."
https://nyti.ms/2GySffQ

I am wondering if there are any folks out there who live in Europe and work in a big (or even smaller) consulting firm or law firm. I would think that work hours have creeped up even in Europe. I have some family members roughly my age (40s) who can relate although they are still not tethered to a cell phone on vacation, and their "mandated" vacation exceeds a month per year.

Personally, I think expectations come from leadership and the culture of the organization so the key is to find a job that aligns with your values, even if you have to trade-off a higher salary to obtain it.

I think "teathered" is sort of an extreme view or circumstance. If doing a little distance working can otherwise extend the length of the trip, it can be a fair tradeoff if kept in balance. If I can add a day or two to a trip to Europe by working a few hours its win/win.

And when you look at the gender pay gap women on average make 70% of men. But when you look at identical jobs they make 95% then when look at same job plus same experience its equal. That's important because unless you recognize this you are trying to solve the wrong problem. The problem is not that they are being paid less for equal work, the problem is that there are more women than men in low paying jobs. That's what needs to be addressed. Sorry, off topic. But something I wish we could fix.

Personally, I think expectations come from leadership and the culture
of the organization so the key is to find a job that aligns with your
values, even if you have to trade-off a higher salary to obtain it.

Agnes, you and I agree only about half the time, but on this one you are spot on. But even when we disagree your arguments are brilliant. Some day I would like to meet you.

Great posts from Emma and Agnes. Emma, political parties in this country are both too busy fighting each other to pass legislation that would actually benefit their constituents. (On a side rant, my husband used to join a political party because he was an unpaid lobbyist for his professional organization. Yesterday the only mail we got was two political letters for him, both of which promptly went into the trashcan.) Notice that nothing is being done to deal with the current immigration issues and the needs of some industries for a guest worker program.
This will upset some people, but it should be pointed out that employees of a certain fast food company in the US always have Sundays off (unless there's a disaster where they work and the company hands out food for free-like when people were stranded in the Atlanta airport due to an electrical outage) and are also often paid higher than minimum wages. Yet this company is vilified by many because of the personal beliefs of the CEO.

And the are banned in my airport. Go figure.

"This will upset some people, but it should be pointed out that employees of a certain fast food company in the US always have Sundays off"

Presumably if they aren't Christian, the employee can take a different day of rest instead?

The problem is not that they are being paid less for equal work, the
problem is that there are more women than men in low paying jobs.

James, you're going off on a tangent. That is NOT what that article was about. It was squarely focused on high-paid, high-skill professional jobs (and assumed that both partners had such a job, and the trade-off that entailed). I only posted it as it relates to expectations to be available and on-call during what folks would consider one's private time like late nights and weekends. Those are the types of folks who would be likely taking less vacation (even if they had plenty) and probably working through some of it. Or trading it off for a higher salary. At the end of the day, someone needs to take care of the kids - and this ain't Sweden where employers give Dads the same amount of time off as Moms to take care of a newborn. The odd thing is that high-paid jobs that come with > 40 workweeks usually have really generous vacations, but those employees don't take it all. So it's like a carrot that's just left on the table. I have managed someone myself who lost vacation every year because she didn't expend it all (and not all of it could be converted back to salary - because they point was to incentivize people to take time off periodically). That was her choice, and it wasn't expected.

As for Chick-fil-A, those jobs don't offer the possibility to work remotely (that I know of). You're either at work working, or you're off - you're not calling in from vacation. I think there's nothing wrong with taking your money elsewhere if, on net, the values of a company (both good and bad) are such that you deem the "bad" exceeds the "good". Everything is a trade-off, and it will be different for each person. But it's great that non-Christians working there also benefit from Sundays off.

Or, the company owner does it based on his beliefs and his relationship with his god. Although the work week is 5 days so I suspect all employees have some flexibility in choosing which 5 of the 6 they will work. I wouldn't think that would be an unreasonable assumption given that substantially less than 5% of all Americans are active participants in a religion other than Christianity.

I've never had a 9-5 job where I could leave based simply on the time, not the job or mission, but I envy those who can.

If the boss genuinely needed to contact me and I said, "No, I'm on vacation," then I would be perceived as lacking commitment to the mission and be labeled as as such. No, he wouldn't bother me about trivialities, but I could foresee something that might need my attention before returning to work in two weeks.

Agnes, you are correct, I was off on a tangent. I wasn't referring to your article. My profession puts me close to education and the fact that so many women end up in low paying jobs is an issue that education can address. It's just a topic that is close to my heart for some unexplained reason. In my profession, in my part of the world, women are paid equally for the same work. In my little 35 person business they make up 60% of the staff and close to 75% of the salaries. But there should be more competing for those jobs. That's where I put my efforts. I also have some strong feelings around religious minorities in the work place. About 20% of my workforce. Thanksgiving potluck just ain't what it use to be :)

James E. your key word may be 'active' but here is a religion (and areligion) breakdown
https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/

Nick, when we were in Amsterdam on Sunday, the stores were closed. Sunday is a traditional day off in many countries.

While we're on the subject of the name "Nick", did anyone else notice that the most successful college football coach went back to work less than 24 hours after hip replacement surgery? Workaholism is often rewarded in the US.

The number I found was a bit lower, but yes, the key word was "active" as that's when the particular day of the week is important. In my office we have 6 non Christians, none of which practice their religion. I dont know what percentage of non-Christians practice their religion, but I sort of doubt it's even 50% and I dont even know what their day of rest tradition is other than Jews.

They tried Blue Laws in Hungary a few years back. Didnt last long.... Not what the people wanted. Things like this generally work best when its personal choice as opposed to government regulation. My favorite butcher in Budapest is run by a Jewish gentleman so he is closed early Friday and all day Saturday. I suspect it costs him dearly in Ft ($) but its what he values so G-d bless him. Im sure his Christian employees dont mind the day off.

the fact that so many women end up in low paying jobs is an issue that
education can address.

There will always be an overrepresentation of women in some fields that are low paid, that will take a while to reverse (even getting men to enter the nursing profession is hard because of the stigma in so-called "pink collar" jobs). But education trends are totally opposite than what you might expect, and more women than ever are better educated relative to their male counterparts and are in high(er) paid jobs, including STEM and law. The problem is that the high-skilled job market puts a premium on commitment (hours worked, being available and connected) and there's a conflict when small children come into play - someone's gotta be the one who downshifts their career since, in most cases, both parents can't do it easily given the living costs in some areas (including where I live). And we still have traditional concepts of parenting and leave policies that buttress the status quo. The best educated and paid women have sizeable opportunity cost when they leave the labor force temporarily. So education itself won't resolve the pay gap issue. Cultural norms/expectations, preferences, and leave policies skew wage loses to being absorbed disproportionately by women (across women who are well-compensated/ well educated, as well as those who are not).

https://www.census.gov/newsroom/blogs/random-samplings/2016/03/shift-toward-greater-educational-attainment-for-women-began-20-years-ago.html
"Women age 25 to 29 have had higher college attainment rates than men of the same age since 1996. This higher rate is not limited to women in the United States. Nearly all the countries with advanced economies that form the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development report that young women are ahead of young men in college completion."

In my profession the women make up more than 60% of the graduates. What is working for us is that with so many women in the office we can now average their time in the office. That is we can guess that in a given year we will have the equivelent of one person on maternity leave so we can hire one additional person to fill that slot. Its balaning out pretty well and it doesnt cost us more in labor to do so. We also have the issue of so many foreign nationals and their culture is to take more vacation/leave time. Again we have hired to cover for that without additional labor cost. No, we dont pay maternity leave, if everyone did we could, but to be competitive we cant do it in the current circumstance. But we have found a way to be extremely flexible and if they plan their maternity a few years in advance between vacation and sick time and with us doing a little redefining of full vs part time and other office benefits we generally manage to keep them on the books without them missing a pay check or loosing medical coverage. Most of the companies in my profession in our region do something similar.

And our women and our foreign nationals are among the most driven, hardest working we have. My biggest problem is getting them to enjoy their time off and not try and work so much when they are off.

Mike, please translate this "Any of you kept on the leash whilst on hols?" I cannot for the life of me guess...

Cultural norms/expectations, preferences, and leave policies skew wage
loses being absorbed disproportionately by women (across women who are
well-compensated/ well educated, as well as those who are not).

Agnes, that is why to say women are paid equally you have to add in same job and "equal experience". Thats a tough one. If a woman has three children in 10 years then she probably has no more than 8 years of experience. While the guy that was hired at the same time has 10 years. Short term that might be an issue. Long term (20 years vs 22 years) it really shouldnt matter. But yes, its real. Distance work might be a way to over come some of that and we do try and make that work. Then again, I have staff with 5 years experience who are better than most with 10 years experience. And the each person is compensated accordingly.

WOW!!! We are way off base now.... Sorry..

If a woman has three children in 10 years then she probably has no
more than 8 years of experience.

Yeah, but her partner/husband/child's father has 10 in the same instance (doesn't matter if he's in a totally different job). He didn't lose 2. See the problem?

(Of course this is oversimplified but the point is still a simple one - the loses are unequally distributed).

Agnes, you just messing with me? I've been told I'm one can short of a six-pack.

No, I wasn't...but I think I figured it out. "While on holiday????"

I absolutely see the problem. I just dont know the solution. I do believe the solution should not involve robbing Peter to pay Paul. I just dont think that would work as a permentant solution. Its sort of like my rant at the begining of this; you dont bring someone up by bringing someone else down. Not if you want it to last. Having men stay home more as part of the maternity process, but that requires a cultural shift that wll be slow in coming ... if it does. Women could make it a requirement of partnering (almost said marriage). I do feel good that problem is now cultural and not systemic work place descrimination. Thats a step in the right direction.

AND Agnes, we are about to get slammed for hijacking the thread.

Presumably if they aren't Christian, the employee can take a different day of rest instead?

You presume wrongly. Though I'm sure you knew that ;)

I wouldn't conflate worker's benefits with religious views in that case, but that's taking me dangerously close to a politics discussion.

I'll just point out that In n Out (the west coast burger chain that also pays well above minimum wage and industry standards) also has religious conservative ownership (their cups even reference bible verses), and even makes political contributions to a conservative political party, but are not vilified in the same way as Chick Fil A because people find their political activities to be less blatantly discriminatory.

I'm just trying to elevate my English so as not to come across as some back country rube in London.

I'm just trying to elevate my English so as not to come across as some back country rube in London.

Britain has its own versions of “back country rube” so you will be fine ;)

1885BD, I go back to the fact that the work week is 5 days and the place is open 6. So presumably every employee gets one additional day off. the Jewish person might choose Saturday the Muslim might choose Friday and the Hindu wouldn’t care.... Of course if they aren’t practicing their faith or otherwise being communal on that day it really wouldn’t matter; and my guess is thats most people. None of the Muslims I work with see Friday as special because they aren’t practicing Muslims. I do know a few orthodox Jews and they do drop everything about an hour before sunset on Friday. I don’t think that causes them any problem and it sure doesn’t hurt to have Sunday off too. I think people have a tendancy to make a victim where one doesn’t exist. Not you I am certain, but there are many out there that resent people with strong religious convictions and try to convert that into an outward hostility. If this Chick Filet guy truly is a good Christian, and I have no reason to doubt that, then his life tenant is to treat others as he himself would want to be treated, and that teaching specifically transends the beliefs of others.

Presumably if they aren't Christian, the employee can take a different day of rest instead?

That is the issue with most fast food places in the US -- you can't get a guaranteed day off. The only reason Chick-fil-a employees can count on having Sunday off is every one of their places are closed on Sunday. Since they are not closed on any other day of the week, there is no option. I'm sure if you have an understanding manager and you require a specific day off for religious purposes, they will do their best to always give that day off. But that then impacts the maximum number of hours you are available for work and results in a shortened work week. And when you get paid by the hour, a short work week means a short pay check.

And no, it is not possible to work remotely in a fast food restaurant (unless you are in a corporate office position). One tried that with order takers in the drive through being at a remote location. All I can say about that was it was complete confusion for everyone involved.

Finally, I won't go into the beliefs of the CEO. Fortunately he does not require his employees to adhere to those beliefs beyond closing on Sundays.

Well in truth we’re talking about a fast food restaurant - it’s highly unlikely there exists a 5 or even 6 day work week like we’d understand one. Rather, employees would work different shifts each week, hovering around part time, with only management working a full time schedule and everyone else trading off varying shifts totaling up to 20 some odd hours per week. Being closed on Sundays isn’t that big a deal in that case.

This is an argument that I have never heard coming from one of the groups we are discussing. You are just guessing and assuming based on a personal bias. I fall into that trap sometimes, but I recognize it and look for change. I will assume he is discriminatory when I hear that it is company policy not to accommodate the needs of people of differing faiths. To assume otherwise I would have to be as discriminatory as those that think all Muslims are sympathetic to terrorists. It’s about time everyone stop labeling then stereotyping individuals. The overwhelming majority of all people of all religions and races and countries of origin are fair, decent people. That’s where I being my thinking in all such discussions. The only exception are people from New Jersey.

And no, it is not possible to work remotely in a fast food restaurant
(unless you are in a corporate office position). One tried that with
order takers in the drive through being at a remote location. All I
can say about that was it was complete confusion for everyone
involved.

Another interesting side note. McD, where the minimum wage is getting to high, is replacing people with order taking kiosks. One of the "benefits" of a "living wage". We need a law requiring fast food restaurants to hire people and not use such obvious discriminatory tactics.

As for working remotely. Never say never. You know banks are now setting up remote tellers, where one teller using CCTV is serving multiple bank locations. I dont see why that wouldnt work the order takers in fast food places. 100 staff covering 50 restaurants from a remote location. The day will come.

Woaah....I don't know how this thread got so side-tracked as to get into automation (every US employer would cut labor costs if they could to increase their profits, and the genie's left the bottle on that one) and low-skilled labor in direct customer-facing roles like restaurants.

This is a thread about working while on vacation. That assumes: 1) you have a white-collar job that pays enough for discretionary spending on vacations in the first place, 2) your job is portable, 3) you can work effectively in a remote setting and have access to whatever tools you need (laptop, VPN, conferencing equipment, cell, high-speed broadband access, etc), 4) you have the support of your boss, team, client, and any other stakeholders of your work product, and 5) you're willing to trade off some leisure time on vacation to work, hopefully being compensated for it somehow to make it worthwhile.

yes, but its been fun; and informative. And the OP has chimed in enough to keep from getting too paranoid about hijacking the thread. Yes, we have a new world ahead. What I see the banks designing for their new facilites is simply amazing and frightening. Remote tellers, loan officers and customer service will be the norm soon. And its just a temp fix. In a few mores the brick and block banks will be pretty rare and the staffing requirements will be a fraction of what they are now.... Better find a field where real on site living people are essential.

As for working on vacation. Today I spent the morning out of the office and doing some work and a lot of this. Which brings up the topic of "just how productive is a person when they work remotely" In my case, today at least, not too productive. Takes a lot of disipline to work remotely which is why my office doesnt encourage it.

Ok, I'm going to weigh back in and affirm James use of the Golden Rule in relationship to chick fil a (and hobby lobby) if we are still talking about work weeks and work life balance. I'm an active Christian. I have worked for hospitals in which I understand someone is working 24hrs per day 365. (And taking turns carrying a pager ). So, the two above organizations are closed on Sunday's because it " aligns w their values ". Meanwhile Chick discriminates against same sex couples and hobby lobby's health insurance will not cover some forms of female birth control, but will cover viagra. This kind of narrow minded @#$%& is not aligned with my Christian values. When I encounter either of those CEOs sitting in an ER waiting room with an over wrought stranger then I'll be impressed with his faith commitment. **continued*
I had a full blown anti hobby lobby rant a few weeks ago, I was literally helping a friend clean at the home of a fellow church member where there had been a suicide and my friend was talking about how much she liked to shop there. I told her unless Mr Hobby Lobby showed up to help us clean, I was not impressed.
And I want my colleagues of other faith traditions to be able to take off the days they need. ((Climbs off of soap box to soothe self by playing packing cube Tetris))

I'm reporting several of you for diverging from the intent of the OP.

Justice will be swift, emotionally detached, and commensurate with the offense.

FYI I was a hall monitor and road crossing guard (with a uniform) at Highlawn Elementary School, so the past has informed the present. I even received a ribbon for my diligence to duty. I was not beloved by my peers.

Assuming Mike isnt serious...

Because of this thread I had to do a lot of reading. That's what is good about such arguments.

So, there is nothing that points to discrimination in Chicks business practices. That would be illegal and no one that I can find has filed suit. BUT, they do contribute to several Christian charities which do not support gay marriage. On that ground alone one may decide to support McD instead of Chick and that would be very understandable. I do the same thing in my travel choices; and human rights is one of the things that I think of when choosing.

Wish my insurance covered Viagra. Hobby Lobby is pretty unique if it does. Maybe I need to change jobs.

Not to derail things further (or perhaps this brings it back closer to the original point) but I hear no one talking about the personal time we might take while on the clock. In my case, I’m overtime exempt and senior enough at the company I work for that I will often be at the office well over 40hrs per week. I’ll also often check on emails or respond to texts while traveling.

At the same time, though, my work thinks nothing of it if I skip out of work early to take my dogs to a vet appointment, take an important personal call, spend a little while reading the news, or taking a long lunch. The consideration isn’t entirely one-sided. I’d imagine others here are in the same boat - doing a bit of work when on vacation, and not compelled to work every second of the day when at the office.

Brings up an interesting point about some research out of Europe and even US companies that have adopted it in that 4 day work weeks often don’t limit productivity because employees are productive during a much greater portion of those 4 days than they would otherwise be during 5 days (shortening the work week can cut down on time wasted during the day, burn out, tardiness, absences, distractions, etc)

1885BD, we finally agree on something!!!! And that will ruin your reputation.

haha well don't tell anyone!! ;)