Why is quality wine / beer so much cheaper in Europe than US? And why is alcohol cheaper than water?

American price gouging culture, average consumers don't get exposure to way things are done elsewhere enough so don't know any better. It is not just alcohol it is health care, furniture and that's part why I am always going over there. Maybe in Germany but I don't find alcohol cheaper than water on Europe. I recently bought a 1 liter glass bottle of San Pellegrino for a euro at a grocery store in Switzerland I did not see a liter of wine or beer at that price.

... it takes 3 liters of water to make 1 liter of beer. Hmmm- then why is bottled water as much, if not more, than alcohol in Europe - even still water?

Great question. During a winter trip to Germany with our cross country ski association, we were booked half board at a German hotell. Half board includes breakfast and dinner but "drinks" were extra. Being skiers, hydration is important and our usual expectation is free tap water. Our German hotel was charging for bottled still water priced more than an equivalent amount of beer.

Price depends on where in Europe you are. Alcohol sold in bars and restaurants in Switzerland, and throughout Scandinavia, is very expensive, and in my experience, much more expensive than in the US.

We did a Brewery store, and it was mentioned that it takes 3 liters of
water to make 1 liter of beer. Hmmm- then why is bottled water as
much, if not more, than alcohol in Europe - even still water?

The breweries don't use bottled water.

Have no idea if it is everywhere but wines have to meet certain quality standards like Appelation d’Origine Contrôlée in France, the same for the Reinheitsgebot for beers in Germany. Many products in Europe are EU protected, so producing is only allowed in the regions where it originates from and so protecting the way it is produced and with that the quality.

Riesling is produced abundantly, meaning for wineries you have to offer good quality for the money to stay in business.

Maybe in Germany but I don't find alcohol cheaper than water on Europe. I recently bought a 1 liter glass bottle of San Pellegrino for a euro at a grocery store in Switzerland I did not see a liter of wine or beer at that price.

Thats because you were in Switzerland. Visit Spain, Portugal, France, Italy etc and you'll find beer and wine usually cheaper or around the same price as water and soft drinks such as coke in bars and restaurants. Water is cheaper in supermarkets but the water you order in a restaurant usually comes in a fancy glass bottle in an attempt to justify the inflated price.

The painfully poignant point of Pat’s headline on this thread hits home when a Belgian Trappist ale you pay $10 for in the US costs $3 in Brussels.

I suspect a large part of it is how alcoholic beverage is taxed in the US.

What Californians call 'two buck chuck', is 'three buck chuck' in Washington

It's a shame that the U.S. has such terrible beer. Every country, even China, Japan, Mexico and Canada, have superior quality beer. Drinking beer in a Munich beer hall or at Urquell Beer's restaurant in Prague is a wonderful time. Come to think of it, Andechs and Augustiner in Salzburg are the really authentic old style German beers--and worth the trip to visit. And the Belgium beers are also nectar of the gods.

And some of the red wines in Southern Tuscany are also beyond compare.

You can get very reasonably-priced wine (even those scoring over 91 points on Wine Spectator) and beer in wholesale stores like Total Wine or, to a lesser extent, Trader Joes (smaller selection but you can esily find something very palatable and good price point). Craft beer is wonderful and very diverse in the US, but not inexpensive (except in some areas like Portland, at least a few years ago). I think both are relatively more expensive than, say Europe, due to marketing and overhead costs (and don't forget that some European countries are not on the Euro, so they are much cheaper for all kinds of items). Wholesale stores and Trader Joes are competitive because they are successful at keeping both types of costs (overhead and marketing) down and they are able to extract favorable prices from suppliers partially due to scale. I don't think we're doing anything "wrong" - if anything, the diversity of both wine and craft beer produced throughout the country are evidence of that. The only thing I wish is that US restaurants had more choice of inexpensive, quality "house wines" served by the carafe (and less expensive beers as well), but they make a lot of profit from markups on alcohol of all kinds, even domestic and/or local. And some charge hefty corkage fees if you try to bring your own wine.

Some states (example, Pennsylvania) had some bizarre prohibition-like policies on alcohol sales on Sundays, but a lot of those went away during covid, thankfully. Also there are some state monopolies (example, Maryland) on distribution so you can't even get certain items at local grocery stores, but only state liquor stores. Very outmoded and not consumer-friendly.

"It's a shame that the U.S. has such terrible beer."

Not sure about Alabama, David, but the west coast of the USA has awesome beer and awesome variety. On the whole, what we like to drink out here is definitely better than Germany's.

That said, in the "discount" category, Germany's offerings outshine America's by a large margin - and Germany's are much cheaper as well. So if that's the category you're discussing, you are spot on.

Sadly, our best stuff here is way too expensive.

I agree about the wine being cheaper.

As for beer, ditch the big brands and go for the craft beers or breweries nearby. In DC, we have DCBrau and my favorite Port City beer which is at least as good as any European beer.

I will agree about the supermarket chocolate. Not to mention the European versions and the American versions. For instance, German made Ritter Sport chocolates are heavenly but get the American Ritters and the taste is vastly different. Probably due to the differences in ingredients allowed by the FDA and the EU.

The Chinese beer " Tsing Tao" is based on a German recipe, named after the port where the German colony was located on the Shantung peninsula (old spelling) in China prior to 1914.

Totally agree on the superb and outstanding quality of German beer, be it in Munich, Bavaria, Berlin , Dortmund, Potsdam, Flensburg, Dresden. etc

it's a shame that American has such terrible beer

It sounds like you do not have access to the many craft beers being made here. What style do you like?
Consult beer advocate.com it is a beer forum and has list of all the top craft beers by style rated by the public and places to go to drink them all over the USA. Alabama has a list of places. Goose Island in Chicago makes one of the top barrel aged stouts in the world annually limited edition. But for sure high quality beers like Rochefort 10 made by Trappists in Belgium are a lot cheaper than what is made here

It’s probably tax. In the U.K., £2.23 per 75 cl bottle is tax, whilst this is €0.03 in France.

I think the basis of the issue is that in the US, Wine, liquor, and alcohol in a restaurant are seen as luxury, sin tax, or high profit margin items.

In Europe, they are more commodity items, part of everyday life. But to your point, part of it is also proximity and promotion of local product.

Yeah, the German whites are great, but they are best had there. Plentiful, fresh, cheap, especially if you get them in the Mosel and Rhine valleys, but in most of the US, those wines are cloyingly sweet, double or triple the price, and put to shame by a $5 bottle of Chardonnay from California.

Same with Italian reds, and many French wines...better and cheaper there, but any US wine you might find, would be exorbitantly priced, and pale to what you get here.

And as for beer...the US has probably the best beer culture in the world, hands down; but I do not drink US beer in Europe...it is a local product. Probably have had more European beers than the average person, and I enjoy them greatly, The UK has developed a nice craft beer culture, Belgium and Netherlands are great, Czechia is wild right now, Germany...is German. Germany produces a quality, great tasting beer, I should know, I tasted the basically same beers at the dozens (scores?, over a hundred probably) of breweries I have visited there.

Why is quality wine / beer so much cheaper in Europe than US? And why
is alcohol cheaper than water?

And

just returned from Germany….

And

here in California ….

1A) Germany is not Europe, Europe is not a place, it is a collection of places and I doubt if Germany represents the average of much of anything in Europe.

2A) California is not the United States; it is actually one of the most expensive states in general and certainly does not represent the average of much of anything in the United States.

3A) One of the beauties of travel is exploring the diversity; lets try to not homogenize that which is not homogenous.

4A) Why was my Krombacher in the Munich restaurant cheaper than the last Sierra Nevada i bought in a San Francisco restaurant? (great question)

5A) Why is a good California wine more expensive in a San Francisco restaurant than the exact same wine when sold in a Dallas restaurant? (another good question)

I think there is a high element of perception. You expect the wines to be better in Europa and they are. But some of it also related to additions that are added to stabilize the wines for export. Many times you are drinking wines that may be only few miles where they were grown and that makes a difference. I am a big fan of Spanish Riojas and have enjoyed many a glass along with the tapas in the Spanish bars. To this day I have not found a Rioja in the US that matches my memory of the many reds I have had in the tapas bars. Even highly rated 93, 94 Riojias in US just don't match up. (Think memory is probably faulty.) When you are on vacation, you are more relax, more attentive to enjoying your surroundings and that includes food and drink. And I think the same for beer. We have many, great craft beers in our area that are a match for German beers. The difference in pricing is mostly taxing and distribution.

One big difference I do recognize is that the house wine of many bars and restaurants in Europe are excellent because I do think that they take some pride in their "house wines." Unfortunately in the US, house wines are just cheap and bland. I don't think we are going anything wrong in the US. We produce some excellent wines and beers. But we are a big country and it hard to get a good Napa Valley wine to Miami or even Denver.

Water cheaper than wine?? I've been around a lot of supermarkets and restaurants but have never seen that. Liter bottles of water in France are anywhere from 35 centimes to 1.30€. l buy my water in 5-liter jugs for 15 centimes a liter. Urban mythology.

Bets, I should have clarified, I was talking about prices at restaurants .

A couple of factors I can think of adding costs in the US are:
-We have a multitude of middlemen, including importers and distributors. Everyone gets their cut.
-Proportionally larger marketing budgets.

Unless I am wrong on the details, I thought that Krombacher is the best selling beer in Germany. In SF numerous places sell Krombacher, (Pils, Export, Dunkel, Helles, Bock, etc.). We can be glad about that. I would take that over the Sierra Nevada any day. That is widely available in SF pubs and restaurants.

That is unfortunately not the case with Krombacher, unless it is a specific German restaurant in the SF Bay Area with a generous list of genuine German beers, not imitation American, ranging from 10 to 20 choices. Yes, they do luckily exist here.

I’ve frequently lamented here than Americans don’t know their own country. Guys, the beer and the art museums are better on this side of the Atlantic.

Anyway I do marvel at the cheap bottles of good wine available in Europe. And a dry Riesling sounds wonderful, usually it’s sweet syrup.

Be aware that the German beer you buy in the US is not the same as you get in Germany (even if it was bottled in Germany) because to ship it to the US they must add preservatives which are not allowed in beer sold in Germany ( i.e. the German Purity Law).

"is not the same as you get in Germany"

Hmmm ... MY palate can't discern the difference - I just drink Pilsner style beer, so a Bitburger here is a Bitburger there.

So the comparison is the cost of a glass of wine to a bottle of water? I've never seen a bottle of wine in a restaurant that's cheaper than a bottle of water? That was an old myth that people drank wine because it was cheaper. People used to drink alcoholic beverages, beer, wine, cider, because they were safer, but not cheaper.

I don't think it applies to water but I have seen soft drinks the same price and sometimes higher than a glass of house wine.

Pat added this qualifier:

Bets, I should have clarified, I was talking about prices at restaurants .

Well, the price of drinks (including soda) in American restaurants has nothing to do with the cost of the restaurant in buying it. There's a big profit margin in drinks, which is why they like you to order them. I had a glass of wine the other day at a restaurant, that cost more than the whole bottle at a liquor (spirit) store. My wife had a $15 martini with less alcohol than my lens wipe. At fast food places, a cup of soda cost the restaurant a few pennies compared to what they can charge. Maybe they're just not as predatory in Europe.

The US wine marketing seems to be based on the intended price point, no the cost of making it. In Europe I've seen places where you fill your own jug from a spigot for a couple of euro. No big deal

Yeah, Two-Buck Chuck has been more then two bucks for several years.

The cost of bottled water is all in the transportation and marketing.

I think there is a high element of perception. You expect the wines to
be better in Europa and they are.

B1) Sort of comes back to my original statement that in essence says to begin a conversation of Europe vs the US is flawed on the get-go; there is no homogeneity in either one.
B2) Europeans have the best wine?, well on the whole German, Austrian, Hungarian red wines don’t stand a chance against California red wines; but we are talking cost I think, so …
B3) I checked out some by the glass wine at a couple of wine bars in Zurich and they ran from $13 at the low end to about $20 at the high end, right in line with my hometown and less than what the same would cost you in San Francisco. I suspect London would be about the same;
B4) On the other hand, the prices for very good wine at my favorite wine bar in Budapest run from $2 to $10 for some pretty fair whites (or reds, but Hungarian whites tend to be better on the whole).
B5) BUT, all the facts aside, I much more enjoy a $5 glass of okay wine in Budapest than I do a $15 glass of outstanding wine in my hometown; its all about the atmosphere and the perception which makes drinking a glass of European wine seem better to me.