Why don't people trust guidebooks

OK..I'm woman obviously and I LOVE the planning process! After 5 trips using RS guide books I can say I definately start there with my planning. I read his descriptions (which over the years I have found to be incredibly accurate) and then go over to trip advisor to check out the reviews. I have also stayed at hotels which were not in his guidebooks, but recommended on this helpline which turned out to be fantastic finds - Thanks Tim! Pat - I have run into tour groups in hotels that were listed in the guidebook. On my last tour I noticed that none of the places we stayed were in the guidebooks, but I think Rick does that intentionally because they were mostly fairly small places and his tour took up most of the capacity. If he listed them in the guidebook he would have more trouble reserving rooms for the tour groups. I think it would be silly to spend thousands of dollars on a trip and be unwilling to spend $20 on a guidebook. I buy the up to date RS book and usually lonely planet, and a few others. One thing I have found is that the more I travel - the more I must rely on other guidebooks as the RS versions are too limited in destinations covered.

Advantages of guidebooks: 1. They boil down a thousand years of history into half a paragraph. 2. They list ten hotels in a city that might have a thousand. 3. They cover only a fraction of what's in a country. 4. They foist a small group's opinions onto the masses. 5. They channelize thought to the point that intelligent expansion is impossible. 6. They make you spend more money than is necessary. 7. They let you eat with people who have read the same book, thus establishing immediate rapport. 8. They are thirty-percent boiler plate that is identical to other books in the series, so you have multiple copies of the same stuff in case you loose one batch. 9. The deal with art in a puerile manner. 10. They are uniformly predictable so you don't have to worry about the plot. 11. They have an expansive index so you don't have to suck in any more knowledge than is absolutely necessary. 12. They let you follow a carefully-laid trail of bread crumbs so you never have to deal with the unexpected.

Like a lot of other questions, my answer is 'it depends'. I love guide books but stick very closely to Lonely Planet. It gives me what I need especially in the transportation area. With regards to Hotels, guide books can only give you limited information and it is possible that is is out of date by the time you read it. Reading TA or other forums can help paint a better picture of what a hotel is really like. 3 nights ago, I was in Madrid overnight while returning home. I needed a hotel by the airport but most guidebooks would not have this info. Also, having a free shuttle from the airport to the hotel was important to me - didn't want to spend an additional 25 euros on a one way cab ride. None of this is in a guide book and this is where TA was useful to me. I was able to eliminate 'airport' hotels that didn't have a shuttle and which were far from places to eat. There will always be people that want a nice easy answer. Some folks think a forum like this is like a travel agency that can provide perfect information.

People are all alike in that they want to be different. (There's no better illustration of this than looking at a high school and the sameness in the way the kids dress.) And people who are leaving their comfort zone want to be prepared. They want to know what to expect and what to do. But if they rely on a printed guidebook they feel like they're doing what everyone else is doing. If they read something online it's not as permanent as print, so they feel prepared but different than the crowd. Personally, I like to rely on Ed from Pensacola.

I'm not quite sure of the reason, so let me make some completely subjective assumptions based on what I read here... For some people, it seems, a hotel is simply a place to sleep and perhaps eat breakfast... Put me in this category. For others, though, where they stay seems to be a very important part of their overall trip experience. And if you're taking a once in a lifetime trip to Europe, perhaps you want to be extra certain that you pick the perfect hotel. So perhaps they just want some extra assurance that they're making the right choice.

Are you working on a doctoral dissertation, Nigel? Sounds like a study. :-) Many of us love the planning almost as much as the trip. But a lot of people have no clue how to plan, have no desire to spend the hours and hours of research. And even if they do read a guidebook adn search the net, they still want the "back door," the hidden place someone else has found. They want the best place to stay given a certain price range. But to make the decision, make the reservation, they want reassurance it's a great place. The psychology and usefulness of TA has been discussed often. One needs to read between the lines and figure out what to trust. This helpline has enormous credibility, generated in part by the face at the top of the page, but mostly by the quality of the input from people like you, Nigel, as well as Ken, Frank, Lola, Lee, Tom, James, and even Ed in Pensacola. Of course, if they "go to x" and it's not a good experience, they can always blame the helpline. Good thing there are no last names.

I have never understood this "love of planning." Because we do so little planning other than broad brush strokes. Personally find planning somewhat boring. I find a high degree of planning a lot like painting by the numbers but that is my character. But I know there are people who must have every minute planned, every reservation made, every ticket paid for, etc. That would drive us crazy but it is a question of what works for you. There is no right or wrong way. I personally think that people - to various degrees - who are "overwhelmed" have difficulty making a decisions, don't trust their judgment, afraid to make a decision and being responsible for that decision, etc., and (will probably get beat up for this) seem to come more from female posters. And I think there are people who like to to told to do "X". That way, if it goes wrong, they can blame someone else. It is a complex question with no single answer. So I will continue to tell you what works well for us. You can judge if it will work for you.

Guide books offer one persons opinion on a place,, tripadvisor reviews offer many different persons view,, and explains them most of the time. For instance, a reviewer may say, " I liked the location and staff, but the room was too small" Or " I liked the hotel, but the carpets in the hall were frayed in spots and the decor was tired" so,, when you read stuff like that you can decide for yourself if those sorts of points matter to you.
Tripadvisor often lists 20 or 30 reviews,, a guide book, at best,, offers one or two persons review..

I think it is fairly far-fetched to even imagine that every single hotel, B&B, tour, & restaurant gets checked each year that is in every guidebook that is published? Rick Steves is no different. He may send checkers around, but they certainly aren't going to every place listed. I will bet my bottom dollar that the folks over at RS check Trip Advisor too, to see if there are problem places and if there is, then those are the places that get checked "once a year". Then you need to wait at least 6-9 months before the book is published. That review is now getting mighty stale and frankly not very accurate any more. Thus, Trip Advisor and this forum as well as others provide up-to-date information. Other than that, what Karen said. Ed's the man.

Arnold, Pat and Jo hit the nail on the head for me. A guidebook is a great starting point to weed out the multitude of hotel or restaurant options. But it's one or two people's opinion, that may be 1-4 years old and may not address the things that are most important to me. So I start with a guidebook to narrow my options and then use tripadvisor to make a final decision. If the vast majority of actual users like a place, I probably will too. If lots of people mention how noisy it is and I want peace and quiet, that will factor into my decision. But if I start with tripadvisor, it could easily get overwhelming (I've had that experience when guidebooks were of no use). TA doesn't as easily filter places on price or location, so there is a lot of extra effort needed to narrow options down. I also think there is a psychology for some that a place "recommended" by someone in person is more trusting than a generic guidebook. Hence the sometimes ill-advised reliance on asking here for recommendations when none of us know what really matters to a person. Yet I still like to ask people about their recommendations and have gotten great leads. We all probably secretly hope to find that off-the-beaten-path hotel or restaurant.

Personally, I think that some people are just not readers of books, magazines, etc., and this transfers to guidebooks as well. It takes a lot to sit down on the sofa, open a guidebook, and look through all the info, especially if in your every day life you do not gain a lot of your info from reading. So, folks end up going to the internet and try to weed through the bombardment of material without having narrowed their search through a good book. I find this such a silly use of time, whereas a couple of hours with a book could have saved hours of time and "overwhelmed" feelings.
I guess you can guess that I prefer to go through my guidebooks, and then ask questions regarding sites and hotels through personal contact, this Helpline, and simply just Googleing the topic.

While I can't guarantee that Rick Steves himself checks every place in the guide books each edition, there was a Facebook video a while back that showed Ricks past-edition guide book in his hand as he quickly went from location to location checking lodgings and restaurants. Virtually every listing in the book he held in his hand had notes scribbled in the margins, lines crossed out, things added, etc. Of all guide books, his is the most studiously u p d a t e d, I'm sure. I'm not sure it has much to do with not "trusting" guide books. Here, it has more to do with the personal touch of getting advice from one specific person making an effort to do you a little favor. Common sense would dictate that that advice needs to be taken with a grain of salt as well, but if you linger here long enough you get to know the regulars and who to trust - who offers kind advice and who gets their kicks slapping people around - who does family travel and who does single or couple travel - who has a young person's perspective and who has the perspective of a retiree - who knows how to squeeze the most out of every penny and who likes to pay for comforts. When it comes to reading review on Trip Advisor, I think a smart reader does two things; 1) a quick scan of the overall rating to narrow things down and exclude poorly rated places and 2) scan the comments for interesting details that either confirm you will like the place or raise alarms.

I think another point that matters to me,, is I hate it when people are slaves to whats in a guidebook..They only want a hotel listed by Rick Steves for instance,, but I have taken a Rick Steves tour,, and we did not stay on Rue Cler, and none of the other hotels we stayed at are listed in his books. This does not mean they were bad, they were mostly great, but it means that even RS knows there are many other great hotels and areas to stay in other then the 5 or 6 in one area he may publish. Comes back to this for me,, guide books are good for guidelines, one can and should still do their own research from mulitple sources( I just google a hotels name and can find reviews on several sites, tripadvisor is not the only source for hotel reviews) booking agencies often publish reviews from people have stayed at hotels booked thru them.. and most of them publish the good and the bad reviews.

About the planning business: In an earlier life, I watched my people plan like the very dickens. But, when things got going, the plans went down the toilette. All that remained was the final objective. What the planning had done, however, was getting them thinking about the alternatives and possible responses to a potential situations. I don't care for over-planning since it can make a trip restrictive. My trip planning is generally kind of broad: 'Let's go to England for a month and see some of the stuff we've missed on the previous trips.' End of plan. Not much further thought until we get off the plane and start driving. This has some drawbacks: I was pooped after the Japan mess last spring. I wanted to go hiking. Herself let me off the leash for ten days so I could finish a trail in Wales that I'd been working on for years. She doesn't hike. I went alone. The weather turned to crap. I couldn't hike. Belfast would be behind the front by the time I got there. I went. I shouldn't have, or at least not admitted that I did. Matrimonial disharmony is not pleasant. This past summer I decided to go to Tajikistan. Herself wanted no part of that one. I went alone. I'd decided that a bike would be a good way to do it (bad idea for an old fart, my knees really hurt toward the end - - the place has hills). I arrived with the usual hundred bucks in my pocket. The place has something like a hundred and fifty thousand square kilometers. It also has about six ATMs, all in Dushanbe. There's also some kind of government trick that only lets you get out about two hundred bucks per day, no matter how you try to skin the cat. My planning had consisted of hiving out that Turk Air was the only way to get there. I had a couple of issues to resolve.

We go to Europe every summer for the last 10 years and have taken 9 (next summer #10) RS tours while we are there. When planning our trip, I plan the flights and my wife picks out the places and tours. We do not use TA and rely almost exclusively on RS Guide Books which we occasionally supplement with a LP book. In all of our travels we have never been disappointed in where we have stayed or where we have eaten. We often find some of the places by frequenting this web site almost daily. Certain places have a habit of being recommended time and again by the folks who frequent this site. With the current status of the airlines and their prices to fly to Europe, my job has become more time consuming. Hard to find any "deals" any more even using all the tools available on the internet. I guess we are just lucky and I hope that run keeps on happening. If any of you are attending the RS Reunion on Jan 14 in Edmonds, WA, look me up as I will be there with the G/A/S table. I will try to ask about how often RS Guide Books have every place to stay and place to eat updated and report back here.

We began using Rough Guides about fifteen years ago before we knew the kid from Edmonds had his own business. We gave his a try, but we travel in a different way and rely of the information in Rough, Lonely, and Bradt. Also, Jens Peters's guide to Philippines. Travelling for me is as much about the adventurousness as it is about joining the flock at the Dom. I like to think my journeys are an extension of older ones such as Peter Fleming's and Ella Maillart's. Their travel writing is fascinating, especially the trip they took together as diaryed in Fleming's "News From Tartary" and Maillart's "Forbidden Journey". Those of you who look upon yourselves ad intrepid travellers need to read these books to understand the term "intrepid". Getting back to guidebooks I'd like to say that we glean places to see and how to catch busses, trains, etc. from them. In other words, we trust them so far. We don't use hotel or other reviews of any kind. The adventure of finding our way is half the experience. One more thing about information. I'm an old academic librarian and I've seen a change how we pursue information. My generation tries to store it away in our minds. Newer generations rely on knowing where to look for it and in what device to put it. These are comletely two different means to the same end, but we rely on the method we've learned. Guidebooks are not the Koran nor the Bible nor the Diamond Sutra. They are guidebooks. Or books, if you will. As someone above said, some people don't read books so they don't read guide books. But, they still know where to find the information they need. Right here. Note: I'm not in any way implying anybody should travel the way we do. There are too many people there already.

So here we have a thread speculating that perhaps people might do too much research and maybe just grabbing an u p d a t e d guide book ought to be enough.... Not a crazy notion, IMO. But some people find it fun to plan. (Note that planning does not necessarily equate to restrictive schedules. I'm currently reading a book on the history of Rome. It's part of my research, but it has little to do with what I'll do when my feet hit the ground. So maybe we needn't try to out-do one another with how adventurous and independent we are...) But of course, the moment anyone says anything positive about guide books, and in particular, Rick Steves guide books, we get the predictable visit from our friends here who never miss an opportunity to denigrate those who - they imagine - never have a travel-related thought not first expressed by Mr. Steves, the supposed puppet-master. Do you suppose that perhaps it is possible that - as with most things in life - some middle ground is the best place to be? That perhaps it is best to get your travel inspirations from a variety of sources, for example. And would it surprise anyone to discover that this is already what almost everyone does? Are our lives so boring that we have to invent controversy to spice it up?

Wow Monte. I think you've really hit on something about the way different generations process information. Also, I think that when some of us older folk started traveling the only guide we'd use were the early editions of Let's Go. Many of us landed somewhere in Europe after a flight on Icelandic Airlines or a charter, carrying backpacks and sleeping bags and took it from there. Some places we stayed had plumbing, some didn't. And there were fewer people traveling then too, but our trips depended on word-of-mouth from other travelers. The student travel agency in London told me the best way to get to Aberdeen was to hitchhike, so I did. We traveled for months on a few hundred dollars. Today, time and money are limited in an over-informed, touristic, competitive world. The hotels compete for our attention and we compete to get the best deals on websites that are always changing. In this world of information overload where everyone has been burned once by some business's hyperbole, no wonder people have second thoughts about guide books and like to get info on this website. As for TA, I agree about being overwhelmed. Top places all have some bad reviews with photos to prove what they are saying. It just depends on if you get that one room with the mold under the sink or the chiller unit outside your window that wakes you all night, as just happened to us in NOLA this week on a TA top rated hotel. One person's paradise can be another person's hell. BTW, before telling me we should have changed rooms, NOLA was packed with the Sugar Bowl; not another room at the inn.

One of the biggest benefits I've gotten from using RS guidebooks is time! We are not retired or indepedently wealthy and highly value every minute of vacation we have. If following a RS recommended walk through a town will allow me to see the highlights and get a taste of the town in a short amount of time that's money in my pocket! That allows me to spend an enjoyable evening having a wonderful meal in a restaurant that I KNOW will be awesome, and sleep in accomodations that I KNOW beforehand will be up to my standards. I realize that I am missing out on some adventure and things that I would find interesting if I were being spontaneous, but by using a guidebook I am able to see a lot more, and have a quality vacation! Later in life when time is not such a concern hopefully I'll be able to take trips by the seat of my pants, but for now I will hold firmly on my guidebooks! And yes, I may be naive, but I do think Rick and his staff check most of the recommended hotels and restaurants fairly regularly.

Let's get this straight. I like Rick, I think much of what he does is great, the tours, the DVD'S, this website, and much of the books, I just don't think all of it is. When I picked up my first Germany book about 4 years ago, I was appalled at the mistakes in it, about not only Frankfurt but a few other places too. How do you publish a book without checking facts first? I sent off a list of corrections and the editing team not only was grateful for them, they went and changed the book to reflect that. I am amazed that a book about Germany leaves off half of a country. That people are told not to visit a city " because Rick says it is unworthy" and then come on this forum and constantly ask "is X,Y,Z" worth our time? This is the mind-set that I think many of the ex-pats on this site, as well as some of the other posters are trying to set right. What happens? We get called names by some posters and are constantly are put down by others. So, I wish ALL of you a wonderful weekend.

I think the main reason some don't trust guidebooks is because hardly any are researched yearly, and even the ones which claim to be are researched and printed months in advance so by the time you purchase the book for your trip, there are still going to be things that have changed making some of the information printed in the guidebook obsolete. On my 1st ever visits to Paris and London I bought the most current editions of Rick's city guides and found at least 4-6 items printed in the guides that had already changed (and had not been revised online at his website yet). I would still use a guidebook but I supplement it with other information found online. And naturally, I use a guidebook for its intended purpose - as a rough guide to my trip - not to be treated as a gospel as if what is printed in the guide are the only things worth seeing in that country or city. A guidebook may suggest I go to the Louvre and see only the highlights in less than 2 hours so I can hurry along and get to the Eiffel Tower and Notre Dame in the same day on my self-guided walking tour. Doesn't mean I need to pay attention to that bit of advice. As for Frank's hilarious observation that so many women posters are overwhelmed and indecisive, I can only say perhaps it seems that way because unfortunately (whether it's a couple, family or group), it's typically a woman stuck with making the plans for a trip and trying to please everyone. Those poor women should follow their instinct, just as my instinct tells me if I am ever in the Denver area I should avoid Panera Bread on a certain Saturday each month unless I want to see a few cranky guys huddled over a laptop yapping about the rail system in Europe. Hey, I didn't even need to buy a guidebook on Denver to learn that!

Please, Jo, don't go! "But of course, the moment anyone says anything positive about guide books, and in particular, Rick Steves guide books, we get the predictable visit from our friends here who never miss an opportunity to denigrate those who - they imagine - never have a travel-related thought not first expressed by Mr. Steves, the supposed puppet-master." And the flip side would be mistaking any legitimate criticism of a guide book as an attack only intended to revile. According to one poster (now banned, thankfully), Jo and I are "haters" for suggesting that perhaps certain Germany guide books may have some weaknesses and that there may, in fact, be many worthwhile substitutes for Rothenburg, Baden-Baden, Burg Eltz etc. It's just a guidebook, people...

I think many (a plurality, maybe... maybe a majority) people are very conservative when it comes to organize an overseas trip, something that, at least among the middle class cohort that is the "target market" for RS, is a big financial and time commitment and is loaded with intangible expectations (you can't have a test drive of a Toscana's villas like you could have for a new Honda Civic or iPad at the local dealership). If you make a really bad decision in regard of a travel choice, there is usually no (easy) regret and turning back. That is why some people take it to extremes being anxious about weather at certain weeks for 6 months from now, for instance. Some will "trust the expert", some will "trust the friend-user", like it happens with - say - cars: some will read Customer Report, login on Edmund's etc. Some will ask every friend/colleague/relative about "what is better: a Corolla or a Mondeo"? This reflects among vacation planning. Some people just want them to be absolute perfect, and will devour every possible information. Some will think guidebook writers always take some kickbacks and will not trust them. Some will try to look after every single hotel in a pop. 6 million metropolis. As for myself, I like to check different sources and mix approaches. I will have a look on good guide's recommendations a start point, and widen my search on Booking and Travel Advisor. In the specific case of RS and hotels, I'm weary of his style (favoring "quaint, family owned and centrally located") of lodging not being relevant that much to me, as I don't care about quaint, ownership structure and will trade location for more comfort in the same pice range - and I usually take a car even into big cities.

Oh, no you don't, Jo. You can't quit now. Where would the Frankfurt Boosters Club be without you? Like most of us, I have a mental list of countries to visit, and Germany is about 4th or 5th. I never would have considered Frankfurt except for the relentless but polite urgings of Jo. Now I'll have to go there, like it or not. Seriously, Jo is always helpful, polite, interesting. Her comments are worth reading.

I have to agree with Jo about the limitations of the books. As one who knows Burgundy very well, I guarantee you that Beaune is just one little place to go. What happened to Auxerre, Dijon, Tournus, and the many other places to visit? Unlike Jo, I've never looked at my local book, but since nearly everyone asks about Beaune and nowhere else, I assume that's the focus of Burgundy.

Thanks very much to all for their contribution. I certainly got more than I had expected in the collective wisdom. I don't want to stop the flow of good consultation so please continue. Its sad that things got personal - I never wanted that and I believe that it has taken care of itself by the community acting together, the way it should. There's a lot of wisdom here, and lots of insight into this question. I just wanted to say thanks to those who took their time to pitch in.

"Many times, I think its the traveler is the who is boring...not the town." What if they find the town ugly? ;)

On my first trip to Europe I had the Michelin Green Guide. I also had access to a beat up shared copy of Europe on $5 and $10 a Day. And then there was all the shared info from my classmates. We almost always stayed in Hostels. We always went to the museums. We always found good places to eat and drink. I also had six months! Now, I have 10 to 20 days max. I have more money, but not so much that I can waste it! So, yep, I plan a lot more than I did the first time! But, I also like to leave my plans loose so that if I find something I can explore it. I loved the Music Bar in Dunkeld and try to work in a stop there whenever I can. I like to use all my resources--Internet, RS Guidebooks, other guidebooks (I particularly like UK guidebooks as the take is slightly different). Newspapers, forums and friends. Some places are easy to go to with limited planning, Paris, for example. Obviously, we now know to plan for visits to any of the "Stan's.". ; ) Pam

I use a guide book for exactly that... a guide.... To think that anyone else would see a city or a town or a museum in exactly the same way I would is riduclious. Where I have a problem with guidebooks, as well as posters, is when comments of opinion are given as fact, such as, 'a town is boring' or 'not worth seeing', or 'don't bother'.... as though these statements apply to everyone. Many times, I think its the traveler is the who is boring...not the town.

Rick's books all tell you that his suggestions are just that, suggestions. He carefully explains that his selections are neither inclusive nor exclusive but rather his suggestions to get a feel for the country. He encourages you to find your own "backdoors" and provides this space so you can spread your findings. And Rick DOES check out his findings most of every year. I've encountered him there.

About the "Genève is boring" and "Bologna is not worth a visit" kind of statements, what I think is as follows. RS and everybody else is entitled to have an opinion about a given place and broadcast it. RS is not offending the bolognese when they write the city is (for him, in his opinion), a second-tier medieval town with not much to see. However, many people, in many purchase decisions (and deciding where to go on an European trip is somehow a purchase decision), operate by means of transplanted preferences and self-fulfilling predictions. It is like when one is absolutely unsure about one in three options of car to buy, then hears to his 3 best friends all saying car B is much better than cars A and C in the same price range and category. Then, later, the person not only buys car B, but tends to see all things positive on it with a big not, and tries to subconsciously downplay negative experiences, as to conform with the previously formed expectations. I think that happens in travel decisions as well.

@Tom... if they find the town ugly I can lend them my rose colored glasses....or they can look at the world through my camera lens...always something beautiful to see, even in the most boring of cities:)

I'm sure Rick is not BS'ing when he says he travels to Europe for at least 4 months a year. My friends ran into him in Spain. But he was there taping TV shows. The man writes guidebooks, films tv shows (his own and also his many appearances during membership drives for public television channels across the US), travels all over on speaking engagements all while he heads up a successful company that includes tours, luggage & travel accessories, a website & his presence on Social Networking sites like Facebook. Like any CEO, he's got staff that are doing research on updating his product. I'm looking at my dog-eared copy of his London guide & he even thanks his 2 researchers in the back & includes their photos. Now while Rick may give his input to his researchers on the 1 or 2 London hotels he stays at during his annual jaunt through Europe, there is no way he is personally fact checking on the other 47 London hotels, B&Bs, hostels or university dorms he writes about in his guide. You cannot be as successful as Rick is in business without delegating tasks. Now maybe back in the day when he started out he did it mostly alone. today it's apparent Rick is beyond that. If he's diligently researching anything now, it's revamping his guides to appeal simultaneously to the old farts who 1st followed him (new cruise guide) to the coveted 18-34yo market demographic (quizzes about couchsurfing & camping). He's not concerning himself w/ room prices or museum closings. Unless he can appeal to that demographic now, his original followers will slowly die off along w/ his business.

Q. Why don't I use guidebooks for lodging? A. They are booked well in advance and often charge more because of it. Many tourists still use only guidebook recommendations, so there's lots of travelers bidding on the few places that made the guidebook. Meanwhile, many other equally nice places can be had for less, sans reservations. I've stayed at places that are recommended by guidebooks, and they're fine. I've stayed at other, equally fine, places that aren't listed - for less. Q. Why don't I use guidebooks for restaurants? A. IMO the listing changes the place. What may have been a great budget-friendly local spot before the listing becomes crowded with tourists demanding more ice, free coffee refills, and hamburgers on the menu. Like any small business would, the place changes to suit the new clientelle and it's no longer the place that merited mention in a book. The listing itself changes the place.

Hello everyone, Please note that I have removed a lot of bickering and name calling from this thread. Further negativity will result in the removal of this thread. There is a wide variety of valid opinions here and I hope that we can continue this discussion if there are any avenues that have not yet been explored. Thanks,
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