White House says no vaccine passports

Just noting that while we're all focused on the international travel impacts here, much of the discussion and consternation in the US about "vaccine passports" seems to be about internal domestic uses. That is, for potential requirements by businesses, sports events, theaters, restaurants, etc., for proof of vaccination. Its the term "passports" that make us think of travel, when the general public and politicians are focused on domestic issues.

Hopefully airlines will require them. I don't want to sit next to someone on a plane who could potentially be a petri dish for the development of a new variant.

cala, thats the dilemma, isn't it? If airlines want to require them, but fed/state/local/governments forbidden from issuing them.

Hopefully airlines will require them. I don't want to sit next to someone on a plane who could potentially be a petri dish for the development of a new variant.

They still could. Being vaccinated doesn't make that scenario any less possible. And what about the people in the stores, restaurants, public transport, museums etc in the country you're visiting? You have no idea what they're carrying yet you'll be willing to be in close proximity to them.

Sooner or later we all need to decide what degree of personal risk we will take. Once vaccinated, will you move about more? Probably. Will it matter if “they” want you to show proof?

I doubt I’ll attend mass gatherings (concerts, parades, sporting events) but I will be on a plane sooner-rather-than-later, masked up and believing if I practice good hygiene I’ll probably be fine. I will continue to dine out out-of-doors as much as feasible, attend museums if there is some crowd control, but likely avoid movie theatres. All I can do is pay attention to what the airline/country/museum, etc wants me to do or show as some proof I am not likely to be a transmitter. Get a COVID test? Sure, gladly, if it means I can travel again. Maybe the at-home COVID tests will be acceptable some day soon. YMMV

The way I read the article, while the US govt won't mandate a COVID passport ( make it mandatory for everyone), they haven't banned the idea completely. Businesses could still require proof of vaccination, a negative test or prior recovery. I hope this will carry forward- especially for international travel.

CJean, in the meantime the Governors of Florida and Texas have issued orders prohibiting any gov't entity from issuing a PV, or business from requiring one. And other states are considering the same.

Another take on this subject. This morning King5.com ran a story on this issue. It came from the perspective of the WA. State Health Dept. “Medical experts urge caution with vaccine passports.”

As was referenced up thread in bbc.com news, “The World Health Organization did not currently support requiring vaccination passports for travel, because of uncertainty over whether inoculation prevents transmission, and discrimination concerns.”

The jury is still out.

JC, while what you said is true, nothing I do puts me in close proximity to strangers for as long as a flight does. My church still has two rows of pews in front of my pew and two rows in back of my pew roped off. The gym requires advance limited reservations. I haven't eaten inside a restaurant in more than a year.
In a museum, I would have the option of moving away from crowds. The tube only requires limited time around others and trains to most destinations during the middle of the day usually weren't crowded.

Cala, I acknowledge the point you're making but duration of exposure becomes a moot point when you consider transmission of the virus can occur by the quick and simple act of someone coughing in your vicinity, even if they're just passing.

I simply don't agree with the concept of vaccine passports and I'm glad the US administration has made the decision not to implement them. Now if only our dithering Prime Minister could stop dilly dallying and make a firm decision one way or the other.

Proof of certain Vaccinations used to be required to travel to certain countries. I had to carry one when I traveled to Europe and Asia in the 1970s.

I still have my WHO vaccination card. I've been required to show proof of vaccination for past travel, and even to enroll in school.

On the one hand, I can understand skepticism re: "vaccine passports" to a certain degree. On the other, requiring proof of vaccination for various things isn't that farfetched. We've been doing it in the US for years with a number of things. Beyond vaccinations, we often require proof of other medical things to engage in certain activities (think a physical being required for certain jobs or to play sports and such). Further, states already maintain centralized databases of residents' vaccinations. Within 15 minutes of my getting the first shot of the Moderna vaccine, my entry in the state's centralized vaccination database was updated to reflect that.

The issue isn't so much about entry to another country but rather the requirement to have a 'passport' to enter a pub, a restaurant, a cinema or a sports event. Such a thing wouldn't be out of place in a totalitarian country and it has no place in a democracy.

I just got back from getting my second shot. I got it at a pharmacy. I asked if I could get a printout of the records they have. They weren't able to give the whole thing to me but they did give me one that had the name of the pharmacy, which vaccine I got, dates of both vaccines my name, my date of birth and other information that's more for their records.

My Covid 19 card has the name of the vaccines, batch number, expiration date, date given and for shot 1 name of the person giving it and shot #2 the name of the pharmacy.

I photocopied the card and the printout ​together to have one page. I will show those when asked and have the originals on me when necessary. Between the two, it has all the information the EU is requesting.

Could all of it be counterfeited? Of course, anything can be counterfeit. I just added one extra layer of info.

I flew yesterday. On the plane, everyone wore their mask. A the airport, most people wore their masks properly. There were constant announcements about wearing masks and social distancing. Seats had signs requesting people don't sit in them to ease social distancing.

Such a thing wouldn't be out of place in a totalitarian country and it has no place in a democracy.

I get what you're saying, and agree to an extent.

But I also think this is far from the first time one person's individual liberties come up against another's. For instance (and I'm saying this cautiously because it's a touchy subject) I might feel my right to safety and security means I should be able to enter an establishment in which firearms are not present. Someone else being prohibited from entering that establishment with their firearm, in this country at least, might feel their individual liberties are being infringed upon.

One might very well be entirely justified in not wanting to have to show proof of vaccination to engage in daily life, patronize establishments, enter venues, travel, etc. Others, though, might be entirely justified in wanting to know they are more safely and securely in the company of and surrounded by vaccinated people when they patronize establishments, enter venues, travel, etc.

Some folks feel it is their god-given right to not have to wear a mask, and attempts to make them do so are oppressive and totalitarian. I don't agree with them, because their not having a mask puts others at risk and therefore infringes upon the right of others to be safe and secure, as well as the collective well-being of the community at large. Who wins out here? Whose interests do we prioritize? This is far from the first time societies are having to contemplate how one person's freedoms and rights start to interfere with the freedoms and rights of others.

1885BD, you are good at this. Here is something to ponder. On private premises, the need for government interference has to meet a higher standard. By that, if one doesn't feel safe in an establishment that allows guns, one should not go into that establishment. And to the same degree, if one does not want to wear a mask, one should stay out of establishments that have chosen to require one. Where should the government establish the rules? In those situations where society can not function without control. Public agencies, possibly transportation to think of a few. I live in a city in a state where personal freedoms are pretty much way of life. BUT, even though masks are no longer required I haven't seen any substitutive change in mask wearing behavior (despite hating it, it was followed) except in very limited situations where groups of like minded people come together (bars, private clubs, etc). I think its more of an argument of concept than practice.

I might feel my right to safety and security means I should be able to
enter an establishment in which firearms are not present.

Very appropriate observation.

“ I don't want to sit next to someone on a plane who could potentially be a petri dish for the development of a new variant.”

Even if not the current virus, the person beside you may be a Petri dish for something else. You never know the health of the people around you or what they may be carrying; on a plane or elsewhere. As far as “limited time exposure on the tube,” it only takes a second to transmit, not an 8 hours flight. If someone is that paranoid about being around someone, better they not travel on any public conveyance.

Ditto what Kathleen said, I remember passing a medical screening in many countries prior to arriving at immigration. Vaccination records were checked to ensure vaccinations were current for diseases like yellow fever and cholera.

James - I totally hear ya. And to a degree, I'd much rather companies be allowed to set rules themselves. Of course, then we'd get stuck dealing with all of the competing standards and policies, and what a nightmare those could be to navigate. There's something kind of appealing about an edict from on high dictating a single uniform standard so we all know what we're dealing with and can move ahead from there, when the alternative is a hodge podge of different systems and standards from one place to the next. And only the federal government could provide that (or states, within their own states).

I suppose the businesses themselves have a say, also. We might think of requiring a "vaccine passport" as a means to limit access and prohibit undesirables. Perhaps it's worth thinking about it from a different perspective - promoting access, and encouraging people to go places. The certainty and peace of mind a business could offer by letting it be known everyone who enters their establishment has been vaccinated could encourage more people to visit, make the businesses more money, get our economies up and running sooner. Rather than looking to deny anything to vaccinated people, one could look at it as a way to get vaccinated people out of the house and spending money. I know it's always worth keeping the slippery slopes in mind when thinking about stuff like this, but I don' think anyone has an interest in forever requiring proof of vaccination from this point forward. Rather, folks are wanting to hasten economic recovery, get businesses open and earning money, all while doing so as safely as possible. A little something to help us get from here to there.

Otherwise we're all like those fish that escape from the aquarium at the end of Finding Nemo (I saw this picture online, and it was very fitting. I didn't come up with it myself).

https://imgur.com/a/klM1znD

If ya haven't seen the movie, another idiom we all likely understand is we're the dog that caught the car. We wanted to get vaccinated for so long, finally have... but now what? Perhaps that now what is gradually starting to let some of these vaccinated people spend their money and redistribute their wealth through communities and businesses, thereby helping to subsidize the economic recovery, until everyone can join in!

We wanted to get vaccinated for so long, finally have... but now what?

We live!

1885 you are good at this. Thanks. I just don't believe the need for a vaccine passport for COVID rises to the level of requiring federal involvement. Not even sure it would be legal for the feds to outline where and how it could be used except for maybe transportation (Interstate commerce clause of the constitution). In other words the courts will be packed when a grocer or a movie theater tried to require it. And I can think of a lot of other problems with it. Your general idea of the government needs to step into make every thing in live equal or fair or uniform (don't want to misinterpret or misrepresent you intent) only holds water for me when absolutely no other remedy exists and it is necessary for the survival of the union. There is a certain beauty in being able to choose a California life style or a Texas life style.
We aren't all the same and our country gives us option. I want to keep that. I dont want, and I dont think it works to have a strong all controlling central government. Here is an example of how central control of the nation as a whole just doesn't work as well as local control. The minimum wage law. Now they want I think $15 and hour. In Texas the employees will love it, the businesses will hate it. In California the employees will hate it and the businesses couldn't care less because they are already having to pay that much. One size doesn't fit all on a national scale and our leadership, much like the leadership of the Soviet Union, just don't be able to figure that out.

The US already allows American's to carry a yellow vaccine card surely? Must do because some of them travel to Africa and South America - and you need proof of a yellow fever vaccine to do that.

COVID is no different.

Lis,

The US already allows American's to carry a yellow vaccine card surely? Must do because some of them travel to Africa and South America - and you need proof of a yellow fever vaccine to do that.

Yes, its allowed, but almost unknown for adults to have one. I worked at a recent mass vaccination event here, and asked several people in charge if anyone there would sign a yellow card. All of the nurses/pharmacists/medics I asked had never seen or heard of the card, and managers said they would only provide the white card. My regular provider said she would sign mine if I had had it done there. I have always had one from my employers and still maintain it as a record of all vaccinations.

But your point is correct: the yellow card is an already existing, internationally recognized piece of paper, and was even recently mentioned specifically as an accepted form of proof by Iceland for entry to their country. Its hard to describe to people from countries with national health care, how the current environment in the US has created a paranoid fear of the gov't maintaining any personal information that could be used for some unspecified nefarious purpose.

I’m glad to see a healthy debate here around Covid travel issues. It’s important to understand jurisdiction at the international, federal, state, and local levels. It’s also important to distinguish between private, public, corporate, and government places. Each country can set its own standards. In the USA, each state and county can set its own standards.
I like the idea of a vaccine card for international travel to get across borders and for “reentry” into the USA. (To save myself from a quarantine situation.). Once inside the USA, I like for businesses and institutions to set and enforce their own standards. I don’t like government mandates that have to be legally enforced by the police. I like for individuals to be self-responsible and make their own choices. I also like for people to respect businesses/institutions and their rules for entry and service.
I can see airlines keeping the mask rules permanent rather than trying to check everyone’s’ cards to determine who is vaccinated and who is not. Because then, the airline may still desire to require masks for the unvaccinated. That gets to be a big hassle quickly. Easier to have standard rules for all regardless of vaccine status.

Sun-baked. We are on the same wave length. One thing to watch concerns your statement:

In the USA, each state and county can set its own standards

Interstate Commerce (flying from Houston to NYC) falls under the purview of the Feds. How that translates into crossing state border requirements and vaccine cards will be interesting to see play out.

James E.,
Society is adjusting to pandemic living. There are going to be changes along the way. I agree that things will have to “play out.” I don’t like vaccine cards for interstate travel. Too many issues. However, I can see a nursing home requiring vaccination for admission as a resident. It should be up to the nursing home to determine and enforce its requirements rather than a legal mandate enforced by police and the government. I am just using nursing homes as an example. I think each business and institution needs to develop its own rules for entry and service. We need to just figure out what those rules are and respect them.

Everyone has to remember that the U.S. is made up of 52 governments and each has its own jurisdictions.

The federal government can regulate interstate travel. But once you get to your destination, local rules apply.

This past week, I was in South Dakota getting my second shot. On the plane, we were required to wear masks. Those are the current federal rules.

Once in South Dakota, there are no mask rules and many people went without. Few guests at my hotel wore them and about half the customers at the local supermarket did.

Another item people don't realize is the jurisdiction of airports. The federal government controls the security checkpoints and beyond. (There can be local ordinances as well as long as they don't counter federal rules.) However, the terminal area prior to security is usually the jurisdiction of the local/state government.

This was brought to light with a court case in Georgia about guns at the Atlanta airport. The court ruled that Georgia could allow guns in the general terminal area but could not make the rules regarding firearms in the secure area as there are already federal regulations against them. Local laws cannot override federal law.

A local/state government can not ban a flight but it can prevent passengers from entering their state. It was done during the pandemic.

Interesting Post Frank. Agnes had a good post as well. But, it went missing. Probably segued too much from topic. I thought masks on airplanes were airline protocols. Then, I think Pres. Biden made a mandate out of masks on public transit. I think that applies to airlines even though airlines are not government entities. I believe the airlines were all pretty much requiring face masks prior to the governmental mandate.
Like James mentioned, we will need to see how this all plays out. Jurisdictions get complicated and can over-lap. That’s when legal “hierarchy “ kicks in.

the U.S. is made up of 52 governments

OK, I understand 50 state governments, but 52? I guess you could call DC a government, but the 52nd one? The Federal government? That kind of defies the "own jurisdictions" idea.

Well, there's Puerto Rico. Also the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam and Pacific territories, and the Navajo Nation. I thought it was at least 56.

Stan,
The Navajo Nation is an Indian reservation and come under the dept. of the interior. There are lots of tribes and reservations - each one is sovereign unto itself.

sun-baked, its actually a lot more complicated than that. The Navajo have their own Constitution and government that is not under the jurisdiction of the states. As dependent sovereign nations, they deal directly with the Feds, like a state, and have a lot of the equivalent powers of the states under the Feds.

Heard on Wall Street Journal radio of 6-plus hour lines at Heathrow. No, thank you. Talk about the end of travel as fun.

Lot's of counterfeit COVID cards and the airlines have no answer. Perhaps a data base is forthcoming?

BigMike....go to the top of the thread and read what I wrote. There will be no federal database. A federal database is what is needed for a vaccine passport.

Should we leave it up to the states? A few governors have already said there will be no vaccine passports in their states and they are trying to pass laws against them? (Florida and Texas). Should the residents of those states not be allowed to travel?

Yes, there are fake Covid 19 cards. There are also fake social security cards, drivers license, passports, green cards, etc.

But lets say they come up with a voluntary database. The only way to get on this database is to have the state in which you received your shot send the information. (You couldn't sign up directly because you could be lying.) In 2019, 44.8 million Americans traveled internationally. That's how many records would have to be transferred--at least.

You would have to put in a written request to get this done. The state would then have to send your vaccine records one at a time to the new database. It couldn't be done as one mass transfer because some people would not want their information on this new database. How long do you think that would take? How many people do you think would be needed? How much do you think it would cost? Do you think the non-travelers in your state are going to love to see their tax dollars being used so you can go to Europe?

How would the state know it's actually you? In many states, the only information you had to give was your name and perhaps address. No SS#, no DL#. Nothing. Should those 44 million people be forced to show up in person with a notarized letter stating who they are?

A federal database is extremely unlikely. People who will use fake CDC cards are more likely to use them domestically than to travel internationally.

Frank II. Check me, but I think Idaho has, or has proposed, a law against it too. The way to check if people have been vaccinated would be to distribute the equipment that can detect the microchip that was n every vaccine dose.

That should be easy. After all, every vet has the equipment to check for microchips.

Or we can have AdChoices keep track of it. They seem to know everything else about us, and those who oppose a vaccine passport don't seem to mind AdChoices violating our privacy.

James, Frank, Lee - thanks for your jokes!

Thanks, Frank. Got it.

So, zero chance of any federal database, and zero chance countries are going to forego hundreds of millions of tourist dollars due to potentially fake COVID documents.

Nice sense of humor there guys!

So, zero chance of any federal database, and zero chance countries are going to forego hundreds of millions of tourist dollars due to potentially fake COVID documents.

Now you got it. Always remember, regardless of what anyone here thinks, money will always do the talking in the long run.

Every argument I've seen on this forum only talks about direct tourist dollars. They forget the trickle down.....the less money people in tourism make, the less they spend. If these people spend less in say the supermarket, that means the supermarket will order less food. That will affect the shippers of those products. It will also affect the growers or manufacturers. And it will definitely affect the workers in those industries.

It also means less taxes collected which hurts the government.

Cutting tourism dollars does not just affect the tourism industry. It will affect the entire economy. And the larger percent a country's economy relies on tourism, the worse it will be.

That's true, Frank II. But there's also an economic cost to having a disease outbreak including death, medical costs, costs of vaccines, an overwhelmed medical system, and lost man-hours. That part of the equation - what if we did nothing - is also purposely omitted from the political discussion. But its been known from the beginning that societies would be making a tradeoff between health and the economy. Its not obvious because governments are eating the costs. Just an observation, not a condemnation.

No federal passport but Hawaii has just announced they are going to open up to tourists that have been vaccinated and they will not have to quarantine. Texas, Florida and Idaho can do what they want but if you want to go to Hawaii you will have to register on their vaccination site.

Also Florida may have to reconsider its law on no businesses allowed to require proof of vaccination as many (if not all) cruise lines are requiring it. I am sure FL does not want to lose this business.

Hi Bob!
Florida does indeed want to get the cruise industry fully functioning again! Cruises are a huge industry for Florida. Your comment is interesting. I think cruise ship regulations can be complex and go back to previous comments about jurisdiction. Some cruise ships are registered under foreign countries and fly foreign flags and have predominantly foreign crews. Also, gambling doesn’t start until the ships are a certain distance offshore (international waters). I would bet that our governor would support cruises that are limited to vaccinated passengers just to reboot the industry. Florida longshore men and caterers are severely affected by the cruise shut-down. It’s a domino effect with Florida jobs. I think the cruise ships can set their own regulations about vaccinations. I don’t know what is stalling the cruise industry in Florida at this time. Governor? Federal Government? Cruise ships themselves? I know that the cruise industry has tried to reopen in Florida only to shut-down again.

Just like you can say no shirt no shoes no service, you can say no vaccine no service.

Pragmatic countries like Iceland realize they can't lock down forever. I mean, if we're waiting for COVID (or "Frank's Flu") to go away, well, we'll never travel again.

Too few seem to recognize the social and health costs of lock downs, no in-person teaching, closed businesses, and isolation.

There's also the Irish flu, which nobody objects to, except for the Irish.

I don’t know what is stalling the cruise industry in Florida at this
time. Governor? Federal Government? Cruise ships themselves?

The CDC has authority for public health/pandemic matters, including cruise ship operations
https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/covid19-cruiseships.html

The FL governor is screaming at the White House trying to get his cruise ships out. A number have already re-flagged and are moving out of the US and FL in particular..

The Florida/Cruise ship situation has to be one of the strangest.

The Florida governor is trying to get the CDC to lift its ban on cruise ships. He also wants to get a law passed that prohibits businesses from discriminating against unvaccinated persons.

The cruise ships only want to take vaccinated people.

So the Florida governor wants to get the cruise ships going but he might wind up helping them go to another state.

Meanwhile tour companies are starting up some of their domestic (USA) tours this June.

https://travelweekly.co.uk/news/tourism/tauck-plans-full-summer-us-tours-restart

But Florida has taken away your right to say that. Or do we go to back
to the old "this water fountain is for (vaccinated) only" times? Where
do we, the people, draw the line?

Federal law prohibits requiring people to divulge medical information in most situations.

A person come in seeking employment. He states that I must accommodate his disability. I can't ask what that disability is, I can only ask what accommodations he requires. Thats how weird it is.

As someone who interviews and does some hiring, well, we aren't going to say, "you're too old" or "infirm" or "obese" and so forth.

But of course those issues and others are part of the hiring process, off the record.

Cruise industry, like all other businesses, needs to be concerned about liability issues. If there is a Covid outbreak onboard - will the cruise company be liable? And, to mention things like upset passengers, refunds, providing medical care to the sick, quarantine off shore or in port, canceling next few cruises as ship is “held up,” etc..
My view on cruises is that vacation cruises are a luxury and not a constitutionally protected right or necessity. I think the cruise industry should be allowed to set vaccine standards for the overall protection of its guests and to reduce liabilities.
If Florida passes a law about discrimination regarding vaccine cards - it should only apply to essential services like grocery stores, government institutions, schools, etc.. I think private industries should set their own standards. Then, we are back to the “nursing home” matter. Nursing homes need the medical records of residents. It’s half residence/half medical facility.

Federal law prohibits requiring people to divulge medical information in most situations.

I dont think this is exactly true. After all, parents are required to provide info on their children vaccination status in order to enroll in school. Its the "whats done with that info" that is regulated. HIPAA doesnt prevent anyone from asking, or you from telling. It just prohibits your doctor from telling. And asking someone their vaccination status isn't any more privacy-disrupting than requiring or asking for current test results (medical information), checking their temperature, or asking if they have a cough or other symptoms of an infectious disease. Test results are much more useful info than vaccine status, and being required and done routinely.

Federal law prohibits requiring people to divulge medical information
in most situations.

HIPPA has got to be one of the most misunderstood health laws out there. Any person can divulge their own info if they choose.

A person come in seeking employment. He states that I must accommodate
his disability. I can't ask what that disability is, I can only ask
what accommodations he requires. Thats how weird it is.

Makes sense. An employer's job is not to comprehensively understand any disability or to try to "figure someone out" based on his/ her perceptions or limited knowledge - their job is to run their business. With the ADA, their responsibility is to provide tools so that a disabled person can perform at work like an abled-person. The disabled person is in the best position to know and articulate what tools they need to perform. It protects both parties to only use only the info required for the hired person to function well at work, and no more than that.

Agnes, "if they choose" is the operative phrase. Are you choosing to divulge it you have no option but to do so in order to have the same access to goods and services that other do? I will leave that one up to the courts.

On the HC issue, I agree with you about 90%. (I had more, buy I deleted it as it was way too far off topic)

Not arguing or disagreeing. Just discussing. Its how I learn.

And Agnes, I wouldn't be upset if I had to demonstrate vaccination for certain, logical, Federally controlled activities like flying . But daily to get into a bar? No. And a Federal ID with lots of data on it, nope, slippery slope. A sign on private property that says "Do not enter if you are at risk of contracting COVID, Ebola, Pox, Yellow Fever, ........ " Maybe thats okay. Then we could all sue the guy that made us sick.

Ufkuk, I'm glad I could provide you with an excuse to spew some garbage.

Maria, now you know why I sent you what I did. Knowing the truth you might understand how burned out I get on the ignorant comments.