What should I tip, what should I wear, and all those other conformity questions

Interesting

What’s the difference between “conformity” and “respecting the culture”? In some cases it matters - a person can wear ugly shoes all they want, but they can’t wear shorts in Italian churches. One is a matter of fitting in, which might or might not matter to the individual. The other is a basic matter of rules and respect. Or another example - saying “Bonjour” or similar when entering stores in France. To not do so is considered very rude. So practicing this basic thing is a matter of respect, not conformity. In some places certain gestures are rude, in others you have to eat with certain hands or other cultural practices. Making an effort to do so is just being a good guest, not a conformist sheep. Sometimes we should conform if that means making an effort to show respect or kindness in the “language” (verbal language, non-verbal, actions, whatever) of the country.

Of course there are other examples where it’s not a matter of cultural respect. But I’d argue that there’s nothing wrong with trying to fit in to your surroundings if you feel more comfortable that way.

I find that the locals, where ever I go, are much more tolerant of cultural differences and much less passive aggressive than many (very many) of the the people on the RS Forum.

90% of what anyone needs to know:

Know the local greeting. Know how to say “I don’t speak (language). Do you speak English?” in the local language. Avoid loud American talking when everyone else is talking quietly.

Is this different than say - understanding the norms of surf and when to allow your fellow surfers the first try or when it's your turn to go or how about down hill skiing understanding the "rules of the hill" so to speak. Or how about not wearing shorts to wedding after 6 pm in the Midwest even in the summer? I think not. Just because it's not my country when i travel to France doesn't mean I shouldn't at least try to understand the basic cultural norms like saying bonjour or how to drink my espresso at a coffee bar in Bologna.

I can't be the only one who had to look up what "light the blue touch paper" means?!

I learn so much from this forum-thanks, Nick!

Some posts have been removed. Repeat questions will happen. Some are more volatile than others. We moderate as best we can to keep things on topic and to avoid arguments. Carry on.

Oh, too late again. I hate it when I click on a post and the webmaster has already intervened.
I always read up on local customs, the back of Rick’s books always has a chapter on this topic. I don’t worry about fitting in but I also don’t want to be outright rude, especially out of ignorance. If I can spends weeks researching the best ice cream in a city, I can research local customs.

Thank you Mira, Donna, and Barbara. Very good examples of the importance of learning about and respecting cultural norms. The more we know, the better we do.

Avoid loud American talking

I have been intentionally paying attention to see how much truth there is to this. Also asked a few Europeans if they have noticed it. At worst I think we are tied for 3rd place.

We lived in Germany for four years while working for the US Army. Also, we have traveled to 3/4 of all European countries.

Do Americans tend to talk louder than Europeans?
Yes, perhaps a bit more than some.
However, we found Germans to also talk louder than people from Romance Language countries like France, Spain, Portugal and Italy.

Clearly, it helps when visiting to know basic greetings and know how to ask for where is the toilet.

Americans do tend to smile more and be overtly friendly to strangers. In some countries like Russia, this is considered a bit unusual. If you approach a stranger in Russian, even in a friendly manner, they don't care for that.

Yeah... my comments on these "thought" threads tend to have dry humor and hyperbole built in... don't take them too seriously.

Google "stereotypes American tourists" -- most lists include "loud."

I wouldn't put too much thought into it. If you are obnoxious and rude where you live, you are hardly going to change your behaviour when you go on holiday.

I behave and dress as I do at home, in an exemplary way. I wouldn't dream of wearing a miniskirt in St Peter's, and my missus won't let me wear one on the very rare occassions she's able to drag me to the local church: she reckons my legs, though perfectly shaped, are way too hairy.

Most of these so-called cultural norms I don't have a problem with, and several don't apply to me anyway. I am not concerned with "butchering the language" so there is no pressure to confirm. Tipping is pretty much the same in France, Austria, Germany and England based on my experience and questions to locals (London), plus listening and watching them.

Going in the summer, high season, tons of visitors just stick out., conspicuously, purposely or apathetically. The locals will spot them out immediately relative to behaviour, (a tell tale sign), dress, loudness (we mustn't omit this one), wearing caps, or a particular style of shorts just as I know that is obvious with me too, let alone language.

I would agree that as for "loudness" Americans are tied for third based on what I've seen good, bad, and the ugly, depends on what you see at the moment and where.

Interesting Perspectives
https://yourmileagemayvary.net/2022/05/21/the-countries-with-the-worst-behaved-tourists/

Business Insider (U.S. publication, 2013) – (10 worst) Brazil, Italy, France, India, Germany, Australia, China, Russia, United Kingdom, United States
Forbes (U.S., 2012) – (10 worst) France, Russia, United Kingdom, Germany, “Other,” China, United States, Spain, Italy, Poland
MarketWatch (U.S., 2016) – United States, China,United Kingdom, Germany, Canada
South China Morning Post (Hong Kong, 2017) – (6 worst) China, United Kingdom, Germany, United States, Israel, Russia
Travel Weekly (U.K., 2008) – United Kingdom, India, France, Russia, Mexico
Yahoo! (U.S., 2014) – (5 worst) Russia, China, Germany, United Kingdom, Saudi Arabia
Yougov (international research data and analytics group headquartered in London, 2019) – (10 worst) Great Britain, Norway, Germany, France, Italy, Australia, China, Saudi Arabia, United States, Kuwait

I don't know about you, Allan, but I'm getting a bit tired of Canada not being on any naughty boys and girls list. The next time I'm in Europe I'll be tossing hockey pucks and cold poutine from my bedroom balcony at people walking by. I'll pour maple syrup on the Goldenes Dachl in Innsbruck, give it a warm, glossy amber hue. Down to Florence, where I'll spray paint a bright red maple on the entrance doors to the Accademia and Uffizi – take that Leonard and Michael what's-his-name. Then off to St Gallen Library, where I'll yodel at the top of my voice (they'll probaly think I'm American, though, so maybe not that one).

Wear a Mounties uniform and hopscotch on Place Massena at noon whilst playing a Quebec fiddle. If someone comes up to me and asks, "Are you mad?", I'll give them a hard look and answer, "What do you think?"

EDIT: We are on the MarketWatch list, but that's just Americans trying their best to shift some of the blame. They don't fool me.

Riding the trains in Germany, France and Spain, the Americans are not the loudest. All the countries are loud. Russian, Turkish, Spanish, Italians, Chinese, Germans, etc. etc. Mainly old people who think they have to shout in their phones to be heard, or loud discussions between drunk individuals., or teens being teens.
In restaurants though, the Americans are often the loudest.

Gunderson, you will be relieved to know that when my 3 best travel friends and I are traveling, we do our best to help out Canada in that respect. If we have done something dumb or laughed a bit too loudly and catch ourselves, we start the next sentence with “Well, back home in Canada…..” 🤣🤣

When asked I say I am from Texas. But I guess that is obvious from the hat and the boots..... For some reason I just dont blend in.

@ James.... If you don't blend in, then don't blend in . From your description I had to laugh at the irony.

Tipping is pretty much the same in France, Austria, Germany and England

Uhhhhh no it's not at all. England and France barely has tipping whereas Germany and Austria has about a 10% standard for table service. Please don't spread misinformation.

As for the rest of the subject, IDK folks, I'm an expat so the rules are a lot different than being a tourist where you can get away with a lot more.

There is a bit more tipping on average in the UK than France but this difference has reduced culturally in recent years. From surveys about one in ten never tip at all and the average is around 7%, a bit more in London.

After two decades of not being in England, I went back to London in 2009 and wasn't familiar with the tipping culture there. At a restaurant packed with locals and tourists across from Kings Cross, a very simple eatery, I asked a woman next to me about tipping. She said you could round off or you don't have to leave anything if you don't want to. The bill did state "tip not included." I think I just rounded off then.

Likewise in France I look for what the bill says before I make my decision. In Germany and Austria (much easier there) most often, I round off or tell server directly what I am paying, ie 10%. , say, when it's 18,8 Euro, most often I'm not paying 19 but 20 Euro.

I don't mess with trying to fit in anymore, too old to let it bother me ... however, the collection of Hawaiian shirts and cargo shorts stays home (and no ball caps for me over there, just my trusty Tilley made by “persnickety" Canadians) so this way I won't stand out TOO much ... as for tipping, I'll either round up or leave a euro or two depending on the service and, whether right or wrong, I move on ... I'll try to learn some of the language and usually ask if I am saying it right when I encounter someone who speaks English also (to me, that's part of the fun of visiting another country) ... and as far as the air (or full on cheek contact) kissing goes, I'd rather not be labeled as that creepy old guy so I'll try to avoid at all costs, but if I have to because someone else started the process, I play it as low-key as possible and move on as fast as possible ... so far no international warrants are out for 'Uncle Pervy', at least none that I know of ...

When asked I say I am from Texas

Once back in the early 90's on a trip to Germany, I was asked where I was from and when I replied Texas, I was asked if I knew JR ... when I (jokingly) replied yes, I immediately became a minor celebrity when the person who had asked me proudly announced to his friends and anyone within earshot that this guy knows JR! ... if I tried that now it would be who the he!! is JR ...

DQ, when I was in Scotland in July, I was asked where I was from. Trying to play low-key, I replied “From the U.S.” - to which the nice Scottish gentleman replied “Well, I KNOW that, but where from?” 🤣🤣 Had to confess. Lol!

Travelmom, I usually skip the USA part and go right to Texas ... seems everyone knows where that is, or they are good liars when they say 'ah yes, Texas' ...

Ooooh, another fun topic.

I remember being shocked visiting a mission church in California on Sunday and seeing people in "backyard clothes" at mass. Here if anyone tried to get into most churches here dressed like that, they wouldn't be allowed in - or synagogues or mosques for that matter. OTOH at the opera or a wedding, you are likely to see men in jeans and women in minis. So I find it appropriate to ask .
I also think that people tend to speak louder when they're in a foreign country. The loudest tourists in Israel are often the French. I've embarrassed several Israelis in Europe who said quite rude things because they thought no one else around could understand them.

Do you offer to shake hands? Here in Israel, it's expected of men to shake hands with men when meeting for the first time and often again when parting. For religious reasons, it's not a good idea to extend your hand to the opposite sex unless you are sure it's okay. If it isn't, you're left with an awkward extended hand. In some countries, it's expected to shake, in others it's uncommon, and thus awkward.

I believe most people who ask because they want to fit in are trying to be respectful.

Tipping . . . . . Many, many years ago a budget-conscious college student in Chicago told me he only tips at places he expected to go back to. I don't agree. Many years ago a US friend I traveled always left a generous tip in hotel rooms because her immigrant mother worked as a hotel chambermaid. In my experience, chambermaids have among the worst working conditions and lowest pay. I always leave a tip. Since I started to leave it daily and I believe I get somewhat better service. And thanks to someone on the Forum, I usually leave a note that says "thank you" in the local language and a smiley. Before I started leaving a note, a couple of times, the maid left the money behind. Here in Israel (like the US) waiters' pay takes into account that they also earn tips. Since Covid, when most of them really struggled, my friends and I have engaged in overtipping. I think that's coming to an end since the industry is doing much better. With gas prices soaring, I give tips to taxi drivers unless they don't help me with the luggage.

I believe most people who ask because they want to fit in are trying to be respectful.

Yes to this. Thank you Chani.

You know, it is proper and appropriate, and G-dly to make an extra effort to be respectful. Its like my mother would always say, you can never over dress for any occasion. The reverse certainly isn't true.

But is it rude not to try and look like what you aren't? The Japanese business man bows to me in Texas and the Indian accountant wears here best Sari to the Christmas party; again in Texas. I sincerely appreciate the fact that they share their culture in my culture. I know the bow comes with more personal respect than any handshake would, so I particularly appreciate that. But if they wanted to mimic Western behavior; I am good with that too. Back in the 80's I had the opportunity to entertain some German guests (we had a joint venture with a German company) and all they wanted to do was dress like Texans and shoot guns. I obliged. But it was more amusing than anything else.

If you are ever in Budapest, dont be surprised if you hear in a long southern drawl: viszontlátásra ya'all. And when I go to the Opera there, I know I could get by in khakis and cukka boots (RS actually got photographed in the opera dressed like that) but I wear a dark suit. Makes me better dressed than maybe 65% of the crowd, but I am a guest in their country for goodness sakes ... so thats appropriate. The annual Opera Gala a few years back I wore my best black Luccheses with the Tux.

Be respectful, always be respectful; but also dont be afraid to share or embarrassed of your own culture.

Well said, James.

Don't even worry about it. As an American tourist you are expected to practice native boorishness. Wear that Tommy Bahama into the Sistine Chapel. Tip like you do at Starbucks. Rock that Steelers cap. And when you are in a restaurant, make sure that you are the loudest person there. I'll pretend to be Canadian.

I have a very small tourist concern in Europe. But it does come in contact with about 150 tourists a year x 15 years = 2,250 tourists. Since I am not there daily and out of curiosity I asked the full time staff who they most dreaded seeing at the door. There was no attempt to rate them by place of origin, but the question of Americans possibly being near the top of the list was quickly dismissed with stories of other groups.

There has been a shift in who the tourists are. 10 years ago it was the British Stag Parties. They seem to have faded away for the most part. I sort of miss seeing 10 middle aged, overweight men in shorts with strange writing in paint on their bare chests singing and getting drunk till 4 am.

Now, at least in the Summer and holiday breaks from school its 20 to 30 year old Trust Babies from Europe in shorts, flip flops, Hawaiian shirts or Polo Shirts drunk out of their minds and traveling down the center of the streets in large groups screaming and cussing like they were G-d's gift to .... well something.

Off season prior to COVID it was the large groups from a certain Asian country. Again Trust-Babies who in their own land must be exempt from reality thinking they had the same exemption in what ever country they were visiting. But that seems to be less this year too.

So where do Americans fit? If you go back 20 years on the internet, near the top of the bad list. But in the last 5 years or so, not at the top any longer.

So what though, it's all little stuff and it really shouldn't bother
anyone – and doesn't, apart from the good folks in South America.
Which shows you just how the world has changed. Once upon a time it
was the Ugly American who was the most unloved traveller, probably
because there were more of them than any other.

These days American tourists have faded into the background – and
they're mostly polite, they tip like pros and only rarely do they
drink to excess, disrobe and smash everything in sight.

Lets not flatter ourselves, we dont make the top three and more often than not the top 6. Sometimes I wonder if our tendency of self deprecation isn't a sign of insecurity; or maybe a way to rationalize personal misbehavior?

Interesting reading......

https://www.traveller.com.au/most-disliked-tourists-by-country-revealed-in-new-research-h1i4qq
https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/travel/article/2102308/who-are-worlds-worst-tourists-six-nations-stand-out
https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/travel/article/2102308/who-are-worlds-worst-tourists-six-nations-stand-out
https://www.escape.com.au/experiences/adventure/who-are-the-worlds-worst-tourists/image-gallery/1565d6ebdb5aa9b0ebd6752a2e5e1309?galleryimage=8
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/the-worst-tourists-95743946577.html

Disappointed this is not turning into even more of a tipping thread...my popcorn is getting stale.

Look, the truth is, some people need help to act appropriately in public, Others genuinely want to know what the norms are in various countries, and others simply need to be told...In the words of my Father, Act or dress like a clown, expect to be treated as a clown.

You are free to do and behave as you please. As a tourist, you are not held to local norms, even the "Bon Jour" when entering a store in France, a proprietor would consider rude of a Frenchman not to greet you, but a tourist?...par for the course, no insult laid down, of course expect to be treated as a tourist, but even with a greeting, you will not be mistaken as a local.

Even tipping (treading on dangerous ground, I know), do as you please. To be honest, everyone in the tourism trade is going to expect that you will wildly overtip, some count on it and coerce you. But in the same vein, even not tipping at all gets you what? Bad Service? No, unless you eat there every night for a week; Ill will or bad thoughts about you? Who cares, tomorrow you will be a 100 miles away. They likely judged you as a tourist at first sight and lumped you into some category you have no control over anyway.

Honestly, Americans are the polite ones nowadays especially as more of the developing world travels. I've been shoved, pushed aside and had to deal with ear-splitting loudness from other groups.

As long as you're spending money in the local economy and not committing any crimes, most locals don't have a problem. I've lived in two major US cities and while I can mostly spot the foreigners due to dress, loudness, etc, it's also delightful to see them having so much fun visiting the familiar sites and excited about riding on our subway.

I'm starting to think that Israelis aren't as rude as they are cracked up to be :-)

Sooner or later, given a sitiuation, all demographics can show their "best" side.

I don't pay mind to published articles or polls. From my own years upon years of travel, I know who my top 3 are to avoid or walk away from or ask to be seated elsewhere in the restaurant.

I remember sitting at a hotel bar in Minneapolis, in the late-80s, and striking up a conversation with an Aussie, who also was in the city on business. It was the Aussie's first time in America and he offered up his thoughts on Americans as whole in saying "civilized but not very sophisticated."

Having spent a week each in Melbourne and Sydney, I'd say (in a gentle ironic tone) "pot calling kettle. . . "