What language should I learn for trip from Amsterdam to southern Italy

I've been going to Europe since 1970, and I wouldn't worry about learning a foreign language. Most popular tourist areas speak English.

Your itinerary has too many countries for 25 days. Italy alone could use that many days. Remember that you lose one day when you arrive, the day you leave and a day every time you move. London, Amsterdam and Munich would be worthy of 5 days each.

I would suggest you limit your trip to London, Amsterdam and Munich. I'd also suggest you visit Cologne for a few hours after leaving Amsterdam--on the way up the Rhine River spending the night @ Bacharach. Rent a car after you get to Munich to make a circle to Salzburg, down to Innsbruck, Garmisch, Fuessen and back into Munich.

I think you're right about too many countries. We have 25 days not including the travel time to Europe and home but I feel it's too rushed. We fly into London and Amsterdam and Italy are non negotiable for the boys. Would amsterdam, Italy (been to Milan and north so will skip that) and Salzburg be doable? Your experience is so greatly appreciated.

English.......

If you learn any language for this trip, a few words of italian would be nice. Nothing profound, but the niceties, and maybe how to ask directions. Take an Italian for travelers course at community college.

As to itinerary, are you stuck with flying to London? Do you have tickets already? From where do you fly home? If Amsterdam and Italy are the focus but you land in London, you might as well enjoy London for a few days. It is important to spend some time figuring out what you want to do in each place before you decide exactly how long to stay somewhere. If you don't like Renaissance art, a week in Florence is too much, for example. But I agree with other posters that you have identified too many stops for 25 days. London, Amsterdam and 3-4 locations in Italy are doable. Fly AMS to Italy, though.

Regarding your first question, I'd suggest trying to learn a few of the "polite words" (please, thank you, good morning, etc.) for each of the countries you'll be visiting. You can find the information in Phrasebooks or online. The best language to "help me converse throughout the trip" will be English.

In order to provide Itinerary suggestions, it would help to have a few more details about your trip. For example.....

• what are you hoping to see in each country?
• Why did you choose those particular countries?
• You've mentioned two cities and three countries - which cities in each of those three countries are you most interested in?
• BTW, Paris is conspicuous by its absence in your list. No interest in visiting there?
• How are you planning to get around in Europe?
• Have any of you been to Europe before?

I would also recommend reducing your list somewhat, unless you can add more time. With more information, I can provide some Itinerary suggestions.

You have all been so great with your responses. I am new to this forum and am so pleased I found it. We have flights booked from the US to London and plan to spend some time there before heading to Amsterdam. My husband and I have been to London but our boys have not and want to spend time there. We have traveled pretty extensively to Europe but the kids have never been. My youngest son (17) is quite obsessed with roman history and would like to spend the entire time in Italy. We chose Amsterdam because it has been a dream destination for me and my 22 year old who lives in San Francisco really wants to go there probably for different reasons then me. We need to stop in Worms, Germany because my recently deceased mother in law grew up there during WW2. Her family owned a pub and hid Jews upstairs during the war and we will be meeting the relatives of that family during the visit. We didn't include France on the plans because knowing our time constraints we agreed on other stops. My husband and I have traveled France extensively and understand the boys would rather explore italy. Our flight home is booked from Rome. We traveled through Europe in college (not together) and would like to have our kids experience some time in a youth hostel touring with other young people. Of course, as a mom I'm ok with that knowing my hotel will be around the corner. Any ideas where best for them to do that? We enjoyed doing that and then doing the sound of music tour when we were younger and thinking that's a good option. Please forgive me if I rambled or went off course. I wanted to explain why we have chosen these destinations.

What do the boys want to see or do in Italy?

Your explanation makes the potential itinerary much more logical and makes it much easier for people to help.

All of you could learn a lot from roninrome.com.

I speak my native English and also French, Germany, Italian, Mandarin Chinese, and some Dutch and Czech. I would suggest, from extensive experience, on a trip like yours, to learn German. Here is why- German is the language of Austria and Germany and is very widely spoken in The Netherlands. Many in Italy speak it as well. Locals always appreciate visitors who make an effort to speak the local languages and not just plunge in as Americans do expecting everyone else to learn English. I applaud your efforts to learn the language.

For this trip - especially with the stop in Germany visiting family I would say German would be the logical choice plus the polite words in Italian.

If you keep your Austria stop to one place like Salzburg your itinerary is very doable. London - Amsterdam - Worms - Salzburg - then 2 or three locations in Italy depending on the time spent in previous cities.

Since you will know your travel dates I would definitely book trains well in advance to take advantage of the great discounts.

Have a great trip.

Your choices are Italian or German since English is widely spoken in Amsterdam ( and frankly, why learn a language , Dutch, spoken by so few ). You have been to Italy before so I think you should learn it. But realistically all you have time for is to learn a few tourist phrases so you can seem polite and the ability to properly pronounce words.

I second Terri Lynn and Christy about using German. In The Netherlands a high percentage speaks English well, so just use your native language and I think some (some still for historical reasons) will see it as strange an American uses German and likely make you clear its more easy to them to use English.

Here's an idea: would everyone in the family be willing to learn some basic phrases in one language each? That way you are all involved in responsibility for communicating, with the advantage of everyone becoming more invested in "their" language?

Let me be blunt... unless you devote a few years to studying it and you have some immersive experience, you won't be able to converse in the target language. Conversational language is simply too difficult to become proficient without putting in a huge amount of study time. Plus, the overwhelming majority of the people you'll interact with as a tourist will speak English far better than you speak their language. They'll prefer the easy interaction in English to wasting time trying to understand your attempts at their native tongue. It's always good to know a few polite phrases, but unless you're fluent, people with a job to do (ie, waiters, hotel receptionists, ticket counter sales clerks) just want the most efficient form of communication. And for most of Europe, that's English.

Not to discourage you from learning a foreign language. By all means, make the attempt. Being able to experience the world in a different language from your own opens you up to all sorts of new perspectives and ideas, particularly being able to read about news items that received little or no coverage in English-language media outlets. Do it as a long-term project for self-growth. But don't expect conversational fluency between now and the time you take your trip next spring.

I know nothing about Italian, but I'm fluent in Dutch and have a pretty good mastery of German (although I struggle to understand some of the regional dialects). German has a pretty steep learning curve, because the sentence structure is quite different from English, grammatical gender plays a very important role, and noun modifiers (articles and adjectives) have to be inflected for gender, number and case. And several other features, like separable verbs, the subjunctive mood, and the placement of verbs at the end of the sentence (it takes a while to get used to the main emphasis of a sentence coming at the end, rather than the begining, like English). Dutch has a similar sentence structure to German, but the grammar is simplified (ie, no case endings and grammatical gender plays a much less prominent role). The vocabulary often seems like an intermediate step between German and English. However, there's far less educational tools out there devoted to Dutch as a second language than German, probably because there's less of a demand.

If you have some Spanish then you might be at an advantage with Italian. There is a high level of mutual intelligibility between Spanish and Italian, and the Western Romance languages, French, Italian, Catalan, Spanish, Portuguese etc have very similar basic grammars which they inherited from Latin. French may help with the grammar, but the distance between French and Italian means there is little mutual intelligibility between them, and French grammar has some aspects to it Italian and Spanish don't need because the verb endings are pronounced in Italian and Spanish, but not always in French.

lootsa2 ,

i ALWAYS try to learn some of the common words used day to day in any country i travel to. It would be nice to focus on just one, but it gives me something to do before my trip along with all of the other things. Also i find it get me into the travel mindset.

You can try to learn a little bit of each. I dont see why you have to choose just one. I think its fun to learn something new.

As been pointed out many places speak english but you dont have which places you will be visiting in those countries. I usually hit the big/major cityies so english USUALLY isnt a problem. But there are always exceptions.

When i was in Vienna i used what little German i knew and that got me by. In Amsterdam, i try to use what little (less then German) i know, but the Dutch make it way to easy not to speak it. I havent been to Italy, yet, thats next year and i will start learning some of the basics including some from all of the other places i plan on travel to.

happy trails.

I think you had asked about hostels? I like hostelworld.com for looking up hostels. But the other big websites (booking.com for example) will let you filter out hostels. You (or your sons) could start looking up hostels at your destination and see what you think.

I am just trying to think about the logistics of staying in two different places in the same city. This will make searching for hotels a lot more of a headache if you have to use such a strict location criteria. In Rome, for example, the hostels are all pretty concentrated in one part of the city, near the train station, and a lot of people don't like staying in that area. Also, not as easy to pick up a phone and say "hey, sorry I woke up late, meet you at 8 instead of 730". This will force you, for better or for worse, to always have to be somewhere at a certain time so you don't miss each other. I usually text with my family members when we are on international trips and separated. But some people don't want to bother with this or risk losing a cell phone. Just some other things to think about.

If you want your sons to have a hostel experience, maybe encourage them to arrange their own itineraries for a few days. You stay in the same city (or a different city near to you , depending on how you feel about your 22 year old being responsible for the 17 year old) and they do their own thing for a few days. Alternatively, research some day trips or walking tours geared towards younger travelers.

I have been to Europe solo, with my friends, and with my family. I have always enjoyed the trips with my parents and was never bothered by the fact I wasn't around people my own age. This can also be the trip where they get their feet wet and learn some travel trips for when they return for the backpacking/hostel trip at a later time.

It sounds like a very special trip. Have a wonderful time!

Hi loostsa2 -
I'll agree with the others than you have far too many places for the time you have, and that it's not feasible to learn another language in 7 - 8months. English is fine, along with the manner words/phrases (hello, goodbye, good morning/evening, please, thank you) in the language of each country.

As your sons have never been to London, it deserves some time. Same with Rome - especially as one of the sons has an interest in that one. Germany is a must because of relatives, and Amsterdam because it's on the bucket list so OK. Instead of adding more countries, I might consider longer base stays in individual places, and exploring some day trips from those instead? For instance, you might do Windsor and Bath from London, Ostia Antica and Orvieto from Rome, Edam/Volendam and Leiden, just to name a few?

I think studying a language before you go on your trip is an excellent idea! The more you can learn, the better, but even if you learn just a little bit, saying "hello" or "thank you" in the local language will make your trip much more enjoyable. My son, who is studying Spanish, ordered every single meal in French when we were in France last summer. He butchered the pronunciation, but he did it and he got better -- he even got a compliment on his French from our French waiter by the end of our trip. You don't need to be an expert on the language to speak it. Just talk and have a good attitude! And be willing to make mistakes and laugh at yourself. It's fun and it brings you a connection, that you won't have if you just use English.

I think you all ought to stay in the same hotel. It will make logistics easier. You can introduce your sons to Europe. They can figure out hosteling on their own -- it's not that hard. If the 22 year old wants independence, he can go off on his own during the day, or in the evening.

You mentioned a son who is interested I the history of the Romans. Find the book The History of London & you will learn about a wall that was built around London by the Romans. Some of it may still exist.

Ciao!

You could consider a Roman Empire themed trip across Europe. "From the far reaches of the empire to the capital"
Fly into Edinburgh or Manchester. Visit Hadrians wall and one of the preserved forts.
York, the lower level of the walls is Roman, plus many other finds. Explain how the empire fell and the Vikings took over with their town of Yorvik.
Remember all the movies you have seen about the collapse of civilisation and people living in hovels with hand-me-down technnology. THIS IS WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED. The empire collapsed about 300-400 AD, and tribes moved in using captured tools and weapons, with half-remembered legends of the old all-poweful empire.
On to London (founded by the Romans).
Take the Summer-Saturdays-only Eurostar High Speed train direct from London to Avignon. Lots of Roman stuff here, we are now getting to the heart of the empire. While travelling at up to 200 mph, remember the Romans travelled at 20 miles per day, and still managed to govern an empire.
Round the Roman bits of Provence including Pont du Gard, part of a 50 Km aqueduct built 40 and 60 AD to bring water to Nîmes.
Then on to Florence and the renaissence. The period when the level of knowledge finally got back to the roman level, 1000 years after the collapse of the empire. And since then we have only had 500 years.

And finally, the capital ... Rome.

I humbly but strongly suggest Rick Steves' Phrasebooks. Any decent bookstore with a travel department will have them, and the 3-in-1 OR the smaller individual books would be very useful. (I might even suggest the smaller individual country books, so that you can carry a lighter and smaller book while out and about.) I think they are the very best out there at any price!

Unless you really want to immerse yourself and 'learn learn' German, etc., you can learn as much as you want as a considerate tourist from those phrasebooks; if you want to discuss philosophy in depth with some French dude, then you need to study French intensively for a few years...To order food, read signs, ask for medical help, book a room, make small talk, etc., the phrasebooks are great for that. Their phonetic pronunciation is also very good - not always perfect, but plenty good enough to be understood. AND there is a section in the dictionary in the back so that the 'foreign' speaker can look up words in his language and communicate with you.

And that one language you're asking about? English.

[And a tip on that whole 'avoiding divorce' thing - remember that you don't have to be joined at the hip 24-hours a day. That goes for your children, too. At some point all of you may need a little space from each other ;-) Be Sure that ALL of you have the name and address of your hotel before you separate...]

Make sure you go to the Museum of London while in ...London. Your Roman history obsessed son will love the exhibits on the Roman history of London and all the artifacts found in and around the city, including an actual Roman coffin and it's inhabitant. You can see part of the still standing Roman wall as well as evidence of Boudicca's revolt and burning of the city. If you go to the British Museum, go upstairs to the British galleries and find the Vindolanda tablets - they're actual letters written by the soldiers and inhabitants of the Roman fort of Vindoland (near Hadrian's Wall.) They include requests for soldiers for time off, as well as a very special example of a Roman lady's handwriting - look for the birthday party invitation.

@ Eef...Bravo...My compliments to your son on plugging away with the French. Of course you get better. Good that errors did not deter him from speaking. We say "practice makes perfect." In German their version is "Uebung macht den Meister."

@ lootsa2.... Unless you want go around the places planned as a monolingual American speaking only English and basically forcing your interlocutor to have a certain level of English in order to communicate with you, I would suggest learning Italian and the German.

Chances are that you just might find the Italian more handy and useful than the German. Focus more on that. It's always more endearing that you are speaking the language of the locals. Make the effort to absorb the language, ie, not just speaking but writing it too, (flash cards, constant repetition, electronic devices, etc), you'll know when you are totally enmeshed in second language acquisition when your dreams pop up in that amount of language you have already processed. Tons of ways to do that. Basically it's that ...acquiring and processing.

We also enjoy travel to a few different countries on each trip. It is so nice to soak up the varying cultures. We always brush up on phrases for each country we go to so that we can be polite and respectful, but no way can we learn enough to understand the other language or even do much with our phrases. You can get by with English or hand motions, but it is nice to be polite by using pleasantries for each language. I think the locals appreciate the effort.

lootsa,

Thanks for the additional information. Regarding your Itinerary, there are many possibilities but you might consider something along these lines.....

• D1 - Flight to London
• D2 - Arrive London (this is assuming you're flying from North America)
• D3 - London
• D4 - London
• D5 - London
• D6 - EuroStar to Brussels Midi, Thalys to Amsterdam Central (4H:44M, 1 change, reservations compulsory)
• D7 - Amsterdam
• D8 - Amsterdam
• D9 - Train to Worms (there's a departure at 08:04 with one change in Mannheim, time 5H:07M, which is reasonable)
• D10 - Worms - visiting relatives
• D11 - Train to Munich (there's a direct departure at 10:45, arriving Munich at 14:11) - sightseeing in Munich might include Neuschwanstein, Dachau or the many sights within Munich - there's also the historic location of Berchtesgaden)
• D12 - Munich (you might consider skipping Austria on this trip and just taking a day trip to Salzburg from Munich, which is very easy)
• D13 - Munich (sightseeing within the city - the Deutsches Museum is well worth a stop)
• D14 - Munich
• D15 - Train to Florence (although you didn't mention this, I included because (a.) it breaks up the long journey from Munich to Rome and (b.) it has some wonderful art and history and is worth a stop and (c.) it will allow a few day trips to places like Siena, Pisa, Lucca or the Cinque Terre, if you're interested). Another option would be to stay two nights in the Cinque Terre on the way to Rome, as that would be easily possible, although you'll have to take two days off somewhere else to make the time available.
• D16 - Florence
• D17 - Florence
• D18 - Florence
• D19 - Train to Rome (1H:31M via Freccia high speed train from Firenze SMN to Roma Termini - leaving at about 11:00 would get you to Rome at lunch time)
• D20 - Rome
• D21 - Rome
• D22 - Rome (perhaps day trip to Orvieto, about an hour each way)
• D23 - Rome (perhaps day trip to Pompeii - a long day trip but certainly possible)
• D24 - Rome
• D25 - Use Leonardo Express to the airport (DON'T forget to validate!) for your flight home

Regarding the Hostel stay, that's certainly possible. My suggestion would be for the boys to book a four-bed dorm at Alessandro Palace, which is near Termini station (so they'll be sharing the room with two strangers). There are two Alessandro locations in Rome, but the Palace is a bit nicer, and there's usually a lively crowd there. For hostel stays, they'll need to pack a microfiber towel and a small padlock for the lockers (DON'T use a TSA luggage lock). Also, Alessandro takes cash only.

You and your husband can book one of the hotels listed in the guidebook in the same area, so you'll be close by. I prefer to stay in Hotel Sonya or Hotel Aberdeen, as both are really nice. The boys can either stay at the hostel the entire time, or just stay a few nights to get a "taste" of hostel life and then join you in the hotel. I suggested Alessandro rather than the Beehive, as it's more of a "hostel experience". Book WELL in advance though!

There are lots of ways this could be structured, and this is only one suggestion.

Kristen's idea of splitting up for a few days could work well for you. Think about doing that in Florence. The historic center is small, the Archi Rossi hostel is excellent and they have free walking tours with professional guides every mornings. Choose a couple of restaurants in advance - or when you get there - and meet for dinner in the evenings.

Doesn't matter where I go ..I learn the basics.

Hello
Good bye
Please and thank you
Where are the toilets
How much does it cost
What time does the bus/train come
Where is.......

I have found it really helps to learn how to understand :
Left
Right
Straight
Beside
Behind
Because I can say the name of a site or street and even if they can't speak English I can pick up the most of their answers.

For numbers I use a pen or paper for more then one to ten ( except on French which I can sort of manage in OK)

Amsterdam everyone speaks english, but defiantly had found some places in Germany and Italy its helpful to have a few words of the language.

In your case I would concentrate on German so you can talk to relatives.

Hi. I am an RN at present but a German teacher in my past life, so i have some familiarity with teaching foreign languages. I, too, prefer to learn some basics of the language in the area where we travel. There is a free website called Duolingo.com that I have found to be very useful. Currently brushing up on my Italian in preparation for our trip next fall. Although I agree with previous posters that it is impossible in a short time to learn enough to have command of a foreign language, you'd be surprised how useful a basic language skill can be. On our previous Italy trip, we had more than one occasion where my basic Italian helped enormously with people who did not speak English.

Everyone you talk to will more than likely speak English. Obviously London, the Dutch are great with languages (I'd guess they're the most multilingual in Europe), any Austrian or German you meet will likely speak excellent English - and will likely prefer to converse with you in English. Italy is no problem in any tourist area, maybe a little less so in out of the way areas.

If you want to study a language, I'd go with Italian. Of the places I've been so far, Italians are the most appreciative of efforts to learn their language (even if a Spanish word or two slips out).

We took a similar five week trip with three kids in tow (had a 16th and an 8th birthday on the trip). We flew into Amsterdam, picked up a leased car, visited Koln, the middle Rhine, Rothenburg, Neuschwanstein, Munich, Salzburg, Berchtesgaden, Verona, Venice, Cinque Terra, Lucca, San Gimignano, Pisa, Florence, Orvieto, and Rome (along with intermediate stops along the way).

My best advice would be to confirm Ken regarding itinerary and Pat on language. Remember RS says he never thought learning german or french, essential in either country, but helpful phrases, used and understood opened doors and hearts for the traveler. My first trip plan had three times the sights my time available could cover let alone see well. Hone down every dream sight to a few, give yourseelf more time to understand and remember the sight, and return again. And again...you see only a fraction of europe or paris, or london on any tour or trip, and each time you do you'll find more things to see, next time.

Rick does not recommend studying languages as preparation for your trip. He suggests studying up on history and art to better understand what you're visiting. The few polite phrases that you might learn for each country along the way are in your main guidebook or phrasebook and don't take much advance study. In addition to reading Rick's Europe 101 book, you can see more art talks from our November 1 Travel Festival, which will be online in a few weeks at http://www.ricksteves.com/watch-read-listen/video/travel-talks.

Sounds like an Epic trip, in any event! In addition to Pat's list of essential and helpful words, you might include learning (or carrying a portable translation guide for) words for days of the week, and for "Open," "Closed," and "Strike." That will assist in dealing with shops, museums, etc. Since you're not going to France this trip, the Strike part might not affect you as much as if you were ;-) but could still be an unforeseen factor!

Based on you planned destinations, if you're determined to learn some of a foreign language I agree that German (the primary language in 2 of your countries) would be most useful. If you learned some Dutch (not really necessary as the Dutch people you encounter will have already learned English), you could also use that on a future trip to western Belgium (where they also likely will speak fluent English). Is your ancient Rome-obsessed son learning some Italian (unless he's working on mastering Latin), and could he be the family translator there in some instances?

For the hostel experience, you might want to consider Burg Stahleck in Bacharach on the Rhine. Not only will they stay in a hostel, but also a castle experience. You could stay there also, but pretend you don't know each other :).

if you decide to do this, you need to make a reservation as soon as possible as it books up quickly.

I might note that hostels are not necessarily cheaper than other accomodations. I stay at a nice place in Bacharach that is less expensive.

You won't have to worry about language in Amsterdam. I never ran into anyone who didn't speak English there. The Dutch are required to learn English, French, German and Dutch in school. They are the polyglots of Europe!

Learn the basic few phrases in Italian and German, as well as the base pronunciation rules. This will be available in a travel phrasebook, and a few hours of work will be very helpful. If you actively want to learn more, go for Italian, IMO. It's a romance language so if you learn a bit of it, it will help with other romance languages like French and Spanish if you ever want to learn a bit of those. Plus, while many people speak English in all countries mentioned, my experience has been that Germans either know more English or are more comfortable speaking it than Italians. So basic Italian is more helpful than basic German.

According to a European Union language survey, the percentage of people who speak English, by country is:

Netherlands 87%
Germany 56%
Austria 58%
Italy 29%

You should have a fairly easy time getting by with only English in every country except Italy. So your first priority should be to learn some Italian, although I am also in the camp that says you won't learn enough of any foreign language in 6 month to make much of a difference.

Most people you will come into contact with will speak some English. Italy at 29%? Much higher if you count hospitality industry as a separate category, I am sure. that would probably be true for other countries as well.

Your trip sounds wonderful, and the modified itinerary sounds a little more relaxing. I've had the same problem pruning my trip into something manageable... So much to experience, so little time...

There are so many free online resources for language learning, you should have no problem learning a few phrases for each language (the Survival Phrases podcasts are pretty good), and then you might pick one of the languages to focus on learning more in-depth.

If you are spending most of the time in Italy, you might pick that as the language to concentrate on. If your library has the Pimsleur language CDs, check them out. You have plenty of time between now and June to go through all 3 levels (a total of 90 thirty-minute sessions). I also enjoy the Michel Thomas Method, but I haven't been able to find it in libraries. Check out his 'Start Italian' CD, it's a fun 1 hour intro and he discusses some of the similarities between our languages (sample preview of the lecture is at http://www.michelthomas.com/learn-italian.php). These have been the best methods for me, as they can be done while driving/exercising/cleaning the house and they don't involve any formal grammar (woohoo!).

With just these, you will be able to have light conversations with locals... but even if it's just superficial chatting about the weather and the food, what else is there in life???