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Western vs Eastern Europe on Race

Basically using the Iron Curtain to differentiate.

This pandemic has given me a lot of time to plan my European trip. From the research I’ve done I keep getting hit with Eastern Europe being more how do I say this delicately... tense? when it comes to people of color. I’m a Mexican-American and just was curious of your views on this. I know ignorance, biases, and prejudice can be found anywhere even here in the States. It’s different to encounter that when traveling.

I plan on going for 3-6 months, probably 90 days in Schengen and 90 non Schengen.

Posted by
2456 posts

Two things popped into my mind when I saw this post - [A] one morning at Hampton Court Palace I was there very early, before the rooms opened, to get some good photos. I had a lot of bags and equipment with me. I present, to the fine folks of England at least, as white. They gave me the least possible notice, not concerned at all that I'm toting strange gear at a landmark.
While I'm sorting my stuff out, a family of black Londoners with nothing even as large as a purse comes up the path, and the guard immediately steps forward and raises his hands in the hold-on-there gesture, assumes the aggrieved tone of voice we're too used to hearing, and proceeds to give them the 3rd degree. Within another moment two more uniformed staff appear to help contain these apparent interlopers. Sightseeing while black - what nerve! Their tickets were examined very carefully and then their persons. I wouldn't be surprised if they were not-very-inconspicuously followed for the rest of their visit.

And [2], I was at the cashier's counter in a Mexican-themed restaurant in Las Vegas located, in typical Las Vegan logic, in the Tuscany Casino/Hotel, waiting for the cashier so I could pay my check, when a WASP couple of a certain age enter the door and the silver-haired husband strides up to me and before his wife can grab his arm he holds up a folded bill to me and says/requests/orders "Two for dinner right now, ok?" I had to keep myself from laughing. To be fair, the missus seemed mortified.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's hard to make generalizations.

Posted by
7662 posts

We have traveled to 3/4 of the countries in Europe, including Western and Eastern Europe.

Eastern Europe tends to be more inexpensive than Western Europe. The people in either are great and should not be problematic for you.

One word that I learned for all the slavic languages. Pivo means beer.

Posted by
27109 posts

I'm white (female, late 60s) so not the best person to give an informed answer to this question. However, I've spent a lot of time in the former Iron Curtain countries since 2015, and I've had a few experiences in lightly-visited museums that I want you to be aware of so you won't think you, specifically, are being targeted. A couple of times it seemed I was being followed from room to room; that occasionally happens in the west, too, but seems more subtle there. It's also not unheard-of for a museum-minder (despite no common language) to insist you see the rooms in the "right" order. I never encountered anyone who cared how long I spent in the various rooms, so I just smiled and walked in the indicated direction, however briefly. It's really unlikely you'll observe behaviors like these in major museums; employees there are generally too busy to hover.

This question is raised from time to time. You can see some earlier responses in the Minority Travelers' Forum right here: https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/minority.

You'll have a great trip. Do be careful about the 90-day limit. I became ill right near the end of my Schengen time in 2015 and just barely got out of Slovenia under the limit. Something like a transportation strike could slow down your exit, so I recommend not cutting it too close. Keep up with the Croatia situation, because that country is reportedly close to becoming part of the Schengen Zone. Bulgaria, Romania and Cyprus are also candidates for membership.

Posted by
8440 posts

mexitokyo, do us a favor and report back on your experience when you return.

Posted by
841 posts

Mexitokyo, I can’t answer your question, I do hope you have a wonderful trip!

Posted by
10188 posts

My Puerto Rican daughter-in-law came to France. Some mistook her for North African, a minority group in France due to her French, African, Spanish, and Taino heritage. However, Mexicans are considered exotic in Europe so I hope that's a non-issue. But Mexican Americans can be quite varied, so how do I say this politely, you probably don't want to be mistaken for a Roma because they are discriminated against in Europe.

Posted by
7049 posts

It's really hard to make broad generalizations about two parts of an entire continent. In general, one could say that Eastern European countries have more monolithic populations because they were closed off for decades from the rest of the world, they don't any history of colonialism, and they are dominated primarily by one ethnic group and perhaps very small subpopulations of other groups...so you're not going to see the melting pot like you would in London or Paris or CA or TX or NYC. But in any large city, even in Eastern Europe, no one will blink an eye toward seeing a Mexican American or other ethnicity - they are used to traveling and coming into contact with all kinds of people. The biggest divide is between rural and urban, in that you may get more stared at in rural areas or you may stick out more. But unless you plan on starting fights in bars somewhere, as a tourist you will not be part of any anti-immigrant or similar sentiment or have any issues when traveling because you won't be a threat to any so-called nationalist. The only issues you may face is cultural ones in the service sector, if at all (and everyone puts up with those, except you may be more sensitive to them and read something into it that may not be there). I'm just curious where your reticence comes from - if Reddit forums or oddball blogs, then I totally understand. One thing I would say as an Eastern European is that people are a lot less likely to have a filter when they do espouse some non-PC comments (being delicate or beating around the bush won't be in the works - they're much more direct). But, having said that, I don't suspect you have much to worry about. If you learn a little of the language, that will do wonders in terms of being welcomed and treated well.

Posted by
10344 posts

This is getting to be an interesting thread. Enjoyable seeing the different views.

Posted by
7049 posts

The common thread to any outlier event is it happens in a boisterous bar with young, totally inebriated thugs present, and often very late at night/ early AM. It's not that hard to avoid these situations. As for racism and prejudice, people are people and the same everywhere....in some places it's much more overt and in-your-face and in others it's more hidden or even passive aggressive. In the Balkans, s**t-talking about others in the region is a major sport. There is always someone worse off than you that you can put down, and it's a spiral that never ends (Serbs typically get a certain wrap because historically they've been the aggressors. As for "gypsies" or Roma, they are universally looked down on). I traveled with a friend in the Balkans (Bosnia) and the worst she got was stares and people talking about her Asian heritage (I could understand it). No other issues. I'm from Poland (hence a "Slav") and I am fairly confident nothing bad would happen to you there - there aren't roving thugs starting fights everywhere for the hell of it, which is more than I can say for the obnoxious Brits and their stag parties in Krakow. I would not be as sanguine if you said you were gay and traveling with your partner and wanted to be as open as in more liberal places - some things just haven't caught up culturally, but the times are changin'. Anyway, everything depends on your age, where you hang out when you travel, how much you drink, and whether you're deft enough not to look for trouble - chances are you won't find it.

Posted by
7837 posts

That is what I said don't be going no where drunk solo or bring your own fightin crew

Posted by
5261 posts

Mexicans are considered exotic in Europe

Are they? This isn't the early nineteenth century with travelling circuses full of curios touring the continent! Many of us Europeans are fairly widely travelled and have experienced many nationalities and cultures and considering how small the world has become in light of technology I would say that no-one would be viewed as "exotic".

There are thugs everywhere of course. In Tallinn some friends and I were subjected to an attempt of intimidation by some Russian speaking lads and in Krakow we experienced similar in a bar (and we didn't fall under the umbrella of "obnoxious Brits on a stag weekend"). We're all white and were doing nothing other than minding our business. We travelled to Prague recently and one of our friends is of Bangladeshi descent, he didn't experience any hostility or negative attitude although it has to be put into context that Prague is now a heaving metropolis of tourists of all races and colours. We've never experienced or witnessed any problems in Germany, other parts of Poland, Bulgaria, Hungary, Spain, Italy or any other country other than those two previous occasions however I'm under no illusion that most of the countries in Europe don't have their share of nationalistic thugs.

Posted by
7548 posts

First, Yes, in survey and study after survey and study, popular opinions do tend to be starkly different in what you can consider former Iron Curtain Countries vs "Western" Europe; and these differences extend to Race and Sexual Orientation in a negative aspect. To this you can add in a healthy shift to Nationalism and backlash towards immigrants (Though this affects more than just the former Soviet Bloc).

However, the extent that it would affect you depends a bit on your expectations, your age, and actions when there. The advice below is basic, and probably applies to an extent if you were Black, Asian, Hispanic, and to an extent Gay. As a Mexican American, you will likely see less of a reaction.

In general, I agree with many others, you will be seen as a tourist and an American, and treated as such, seeing little to no issues.

An exception might be if you are very young, then you may get more unwanted attention from shopkeepers, restaurants, etc. who may doubt you are a "tourist" and likely a "poor student" or simply not there to spend money. The other might be if you are looking to interact with the locals "romantically", as one extreme example above points out, it can be a bit touchy, and of course, putting yourself in situations late at night or involving alcohol always has the potential to go bad.

Do expect though that you will be treated as a tourist, a guest, so if you are looking to "live like a local", be taken in and treated as family, that probably won't happen. Larger cities should be no problem, and you will go about with hardly a second glance, in very small towns and non-tourist areas though, you may notice a bit more attention, more curiosity than aggression.

Overall, go, enjoy yourself, have fun.

Posted by
5382 posts

I do not think a white person can really answer your question. It is easy for a white person to say that there are no issues. I’d try to use FB to find American expat groups in the countries you plan to visit and ask your question there...

Posted by
3903 posts

I don't think many people on this thread make the connection that Hispanic = European, in Spain it is very common to see fellow Hispanic peoples from Ecuador, Mexico, Colombia, Argentina... no one will bat an eye at you. I have traveled extensively through eastern Europe and as a Hispanic I have not encountered any issues. In Poland the youth culture is quite positive towards Hispanic/Latino culture especially music like Reggaeton is popular.

Posted by
2456 posts

Yes, as Ufkak says, and I repeated above, it's difficult to make generalizations.

Consider, for example this domestic hike on the Appalachian Trail:
https://www.outsideonline.com/2170266/solo-hiking-appalachian-trail-queer-black-woman

How many times here on the Forum have we marveled at how getting a little ways off the beaten path is often a kind of time travel, too? For some of us, going back in time doesn't warm the heart, it speeds it up.

Posted by
985 posts

I am Jewish according to heritage. I am reformed to secular. I don't wear a yarmulka or Hasidic costume. I went to Vilnius, Lithuania, in August 2007, for a 4 week class. Once I passed by a small construction site with a faint swastika on a sheet of particle board; it looked like somebody had tried hiding it with a thin layer of paint. Another time while walking with a group 4 people from the class, one of the classmates claimed he heard a young man we passed, who was sitting about on a ledge 50 feet away, say "zhid" meaning "Jew" and throw a beer can half the distance between him and us; I did not observe it, so the classmate could have just been imagining it. One time I was walking alone and passed a guy approximately under 35, walking with a woman and a little kid in a stroller; as we passed each other, the man said something at me in an angry tone; it seemed to involve more than one sentence. Another time, I used a bathroom at what appeared to to some kind of bar or snack shack, at a flea market; on my way out, somebody, possibly the owner, said multiple angry sentences at me. Some Jews, for example, friends of an aunt, insist that everybody in this country can tell I am Jewish by looking at my face. I suspect that most Americans cannot distinguish a Jew from anybody else based on appearance; I suspect that most Americans label me as "white"; I am peach colored with dark brown to almost black hair. I have heard that in Europe, a lot greater percent of the population can distinguish Jews based on how their face looks. I intuitively don't want to feel like I am in danger when I am in Europe. I am probably right. Anything is possible; maybe I am being totally naive and flippantly unaware of how unsafe Europe is for Jews; My mom is a highly anxious person; she has a phobia of travel; she insists that Germany and Russia are not safe; I am tentatively thinking that my next 4 trips will be to Spain, France, Germany, and Russia.

Posted by
10188 posts

Totally off the East vs West subject, but what Mike L describes, perceived micro-aggressions that are difficult to substantiate leading to discomfort, is exactly what people of color live on a daily basis in the US, on a good day that is.

Posted by
3812 posts

Frankly Mark seems to link any incident during his trip to him being a jew. There are also non racist ass***es on this planet. Eastern Europeans have no magic powers that let them understand others' religion and the younger ones... how many Jews do they see in their daily lives? Sadly, there are only 4,000 Lithuanian Jews out of a population of 2,793,397!

All these "micro-aggressions" stuff seems the last American mania to most Europeans: just accept that race and roots are less sensitive arguments here. Nobody is ashamed of his/her roots and race, so they'll feel free to make questions about yours.

Posted by
445 posts

Not to argue with some of the statements above, but there are far more nuances to the issue - if you have some 20 minutes to spare, highly recommend listening to a not-so-recent episode of This American Life (https://www.thisamericanlife.org/694/get-back-to-where-you-once-belonged/act-one-15) and note the differences in attitude and points of focus between the interviewer and the interviewee.

This also applies to "microagression" - in my experience, what is often taken as such by visitors to places like India, China, or ex-Soviet states is something else entirely - the misunderstanding arises from language difference, different cultural code, clash of direct/indirect communication styles, etc.

That said, all of this is rather unlikely to affect the OP's personal experience. Like others have said - just go, enjoy - and see for yourself (it does help to be aware of the cultural difference, though)

Posted by
17908 posts

So I went to an open air Klezmer concert in Budapest some years ago. I began talking to this very, very old woman next to me. She looked no different than any "Anglo". I learned she was from South Africa where her family had fled during the holocaust. She was Jewish.

She smiled, looked all around at the hundreds of people and said she never thought she would ever see so many Jews in one place. I asked her what Jews looked like and she responded by giggling and describing me..... i smiled and said, then Jews look just like baptists. We sang, danced and laughed all night. We both had a good lesson.

I think its all getting a bit over analyzed by amateurs. Be sensible, positive and go and have fun.

Edit
I do so little race cataloging that I overlooked the fact that I have been to most of Eastern Europe over the last 10 years, most countries multiple times, with a traveling companion from Honduras. Hilarious it never occurred to me. Again; go, enjoy. It was our favorite region of Europe

Posted by
1825 posts

Mike L,
A friend was out surfing, only one other person nearby. He paddled for a wave but it fizzled out and he looked at the the kid nearby and said, "no juice". The kid looked startled and paddled away and my confused friend looked at the kid with dark curly hair and realized what he thought he heard.
I am also secular. When I was young I met someone who when they found out I was Jewish asked if I had horns. When I was in Rome and saw the Moses by Michelangelo, I got a little weepy which was really a surprise.

Posted by
2456 posts

Richard just above reminds me how certain beaches in Hawaii will feel a little bit less than friendly to outsiders (esp. those who obviously look like outsiders), and that there are plenty of spots in SoCal where you don't automatically fit in when a local contingent feels a proprietary connection to a spot --
it isn't a matter of racism (most likely) but just a matter of ordinary exclusion and insider/outsider antagonism, or tribalism broadly construed.
This is another reason why I repeat that it's difficult to make generalizations.