Weekend Topic - Red Light Districts.

To the usual response that Rick is just trying to raise awareness of the different approaches Europe has followed in regards to prostitution, I would counter that he should also raise awareness to the problems of human trafficking that underly the commercial sex trade in Europe. To be blunt, it isn't pretty. Even if legal on the surface, there's often quite a bit of criminality and abuse going on behind the scenes.

You say Rick Steves is promoting human trafficking. This seems like a stretch.
How is a walk through the red light district promoting human trafficking?
It would seem that it is better that more people are aware that this stuff is going on.

I wouldn't go so far as to say he's promoting human trafficking per se, but either he's willfully ignorant or turning a blind eye towards it. If Mr. Steves is going to promote the Red Light Districts of Europe to curious North American travelers, who tend to eat up everything he says, then he should at least mention some of the ugliness and brutality that underly the sex trade.

I have not read Ricks guide books to countries where prostitution is legal; what does Rick say in them lately about legalized prostitution the good and bad ?

The first thing people mention when discussing my upcoming trip to Amsterdam is pot smoking--not something I partake of, thanks--and then the famous red light district--again, not my thing. My first reaction is that I really have no business wandering through there, and I really don't need to see these people on display, however they ended up in that line of business. I think Rick's books mention these areas because many people are interested and thus can make informed decisions about visiting the districts, whether to satisfy a prurient curiousity or to actually buy their services.

I totally agree with Tom and Ms Jo. He should not be promoting these areas as a sightseeing attraction. His doing so appears to condone the practice which, as noted above, involves human trafficking to some degree.

I don't even object to including a description of the Red Light Districts in his books or shows. Unlike, say, Hamburg or Antwerp, where you have to go out of your way to see RLDs, in Frankfurt, it's right there in front of you as soon as you leave the Hauptbahnhof. Similarly in Amsterdam, if you explore the old city, you're going to see the RLD even if you don't walk through it.

My biggest objection, though, is the superficial manner in which Mr. Steve addresses the sex trade in Europe. He makes it seem like "Well, Europeans decided to legalize and regulate it", end of story and everyone is happy. Well.... no, not exactly. As mentioned already several times, law enforcement has struggled to weed out the human trafficking that the industry probably couldn't exist without. Whether or not keeping sex-for-hire illegal would be much better at limiting human trafficking is an open question that I don't think anyone can definately answer.

Mr. Steves has not failed to address the ups and downs of other somewhat controversial aspects of European policy. He has acknowledged some of the not completely successful struggles in Europe, particularly France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany, to integrate the flood of refugees that have arrived on the continent recently. He has noted that a lot of the cute farm life that tourists love to gawk over couldn't exist without very hefty subsidies from the EU.

So yes, mention the elephant in the room and try to explain it. But don't pretend that elephant is on it's best behavior, that nobody is getting hurt by it and everyone is OK with it. And by all means, don't treat it like it's just some kind of static museum or zoo.

No, it's not the same at all, because I'm pretty sure he's acknowledging an injustice, not turning a blind eye to exploitation.

How much of ANY travel guidebook is dedicated to the "ugliness and brutality of the sex trade"? Is that really the purview of guidebooks that try to appeal to everyone and to make a place seem attractive to those who have never visited? Perhaps Rick does a glossy, happy-go-lucky, and thin overview of red light districts in his books, but that does not automatically imply that he condones it personally or that he implores people to partake in exploitation. He simply chooses not to wade deeply into the ethical and political morass, or to take the kind of stand that posters here seem to want to see him take. He's treading on a very thin line. Yes, that opens him up to criticism but I would argue that no matter what he does, he'd be criticized for doing too much or not enough. It seems that, as of fairly recently, people want EVERY business to take a political stand on something...to draw a clear line in the sand on issues that are sometimes tangential to the product they are trying to sell. I can see several arguments for why that's not a good idea, especially from a business perspective.

If you look at Rick in his entirety, this is totally consistent with his manner and character...he is always optimistic and presents everything in quite a positive way without overly moralizing. He wants people to take note that countries regulate and treat this trade differently. Everyone on his tours is an adult and can do the research and thinking for themselves. If they allow themselves to be "spoon fed" a very narrow take on a complicated subject, whose fault is that? I guess a better question may be...how do the guides on the tours treat this topic? It seems naive to ignore it altogether. So, in what terms do they present it to the group? I cannot answer that since I haven't been on this tour. It seems that when it comes to pot, some guides are comfortable taking anyone in the group who is interested into a coffee shop and giving them the "how to"...could that be seen as condoning? Sure, but then again, there is nothing like a hands on experience or learning in situ straight from a local.

With that last post, would a guide take someone on the tour into a bordello, just to try it out?

In the Frankfurt section, the RLD gets 2 and half pages. Hamburg, the same. I don't have a book for the Netherlands.

Again, it is one thing to talk about the legality of prostitution, but it is another to have the RS tour for Frankfurt walk through it, pointing out the different bordellos, and telling about how it all works. This to me, is promotion. All the bad stuff is completely ignored and never mentioned.

I'd rather see the book state, "The RLD is located on these 3 blocks, here is how to walk around it. Feel sorry for these poor people and the lives they are leading."

Save those 2 and half pages to describe the highlights of Frankfurt, Hamburg and Amsterdam that at present there is no room for now, because the books are too long.

"....pointing out the different bordellos, and telling about how it all works. This to me, is promotion."
To me not. Following the same logic if the guide takes us to Auschwitz or Dachau or other concentration camp I could say that this to me is promotion of holocaust. That's why I don't agree with you this time, Ms.Jo.

Rick will even take a look at what his forum readers and fans think
about this subject.

Dear Rick,
Please keep the passages about RLDs in your guidebooks. I prefer a guidebook that shows-off the good and bad in any given city; I don't blame the messenger. Your guidebooks have no bearing on whether these zones and the activities in them thrive or die out. Best to let the citizens of these locales decide on their future. If a majority of these residents disapprove they should rally their neighbors, contact their politicians and have them banned. Also thank you for establishing this housing complex (http://tinyurl.com/klhk2la) for struggling women in your own local community. It shows how thinking and acting locally can make for a better world.

My biggest objection, though, is the superficial manner in which Mr. Steve addresses the sex trade in Europe. He makes it seem like "Well, Europeans decided to legalize and regulate it", end of story and everyone is happy.

This sounds to me like you haven't actually read what Rick says about prostitution in his guidebooks. Here's an excerpt from his book on Amsterdam.

Although some women choose prostitution as a lucrative career, others (likely most) are forced into it by circumstance -- poverty, drug addiction, abusive men, and immigration scams. Since the fall of the Iron Curtain, many Eastern Europeans have flocked here, and Russian and East European crime syndicates have muscled in. While the hope here in the Netherlands is that sex workers are smartly regulated small-business-people, in reality the line between victim and entrepreneur is not always so clear.

It is also worth pointing out that the Red Light District in Amsterdam is in the core of the historic center. The Oude Kerk, the Amstelkring Museum, and much more of interest to visitors are located in the area. It is the oldest neighborhood in the city.

Nothing I have read in any of the guidebooks suggests that Rick is promoting human sex trafficking. To suggest that walking through the Red Light District does this is absurd.

When I was in Antwerp last year, I followed Rick's walking tour in the Belgium guidebook. And here he explicitly offers an alternative for anyone who chooses not to walk through the Red Light District.

As a traveler, I am interested in learning about how cultures are different from place to place. I try not to pass judgment when things are not the way I expect or when things don't mesh with my moral outlook. We're adults. We are capable of making choices that are in alignment with our personal ethical standards. If you don't want to see these things, don't look. If you are concerned about the exploitation of people who work in the sex industry, learn what you can do to make a difference. And I am happy that you have shared your point of view here, but don't turn it into an indictment of Rick Steves for a position he can't fairly be accused of taking.

I think it is very unfair and inflammatory to suggest that RS is somehow promoting "human trafficking" because he discusses various red light districts. It also lacks a certain understanding and definitely any nuance of the subject. You are a great poster here Ms. Jo and I'm actually disappointed in your statement (although the overall subject is good to discuss and I respect your passion).

First and foremost, there is a HUGE difference between "human trafficking" and the sex trade and red light districts. A red light district includes various sex industry businesses, not all of which involve prostitution. Many people visit the districts with no intent to partake of prostitutes or even to gawk.

Next, these places have made an attempt to address some very serious issues involving the sex trade and prostitution. Human trafficking is a serious problem and while I doubt this approach solves those problems, doing nothing or taking the US approach of arresting the prostitutes also does not solve the problem. One serious issue is health care and dangerous conditions. Their approach does seem to have some positive effects on these issues (although again I doubt they come close to solving them).

My take on how RS deal with this in his books is that he knows people will find these areas or seek them out (for whatever their reasons). Better to explain a little something. I haven't read all of his descriptions mentioned, but the Amsterdam description is very clear that there are serious problems, including "immigrant exploitation," "shameless commercialization," and that many people will be offended (in addition to safety concerns). One can debate if he says enough or uses just the right words, but he doesn't sugar coat it by any means.

Seediness has long been a tourist draw. Jack the Ripper tours exploit what were gruesome murders. Chicago tours stop at notorious gangster murder scenes. Freeway traffic jams are sometimes caused by rubber-neckers that want to see the accident as the pass by. It's human nature.

Finally, I think there is a lot to be said for having people be aware of these places. When I first visited Amsterdam, I definitely wanted to see it (not to partake but I was a curious young man). I found some of it titillating to be sure, but I also was profoundly moved at seeing women offering their bodies in that way and it really disgusted and saddened me. It's not something many Americans ever see in the US.

This is not about being a prude either.

It is 100% about being prude. The RLD is a practical way of handling the world's oldest profession and worth seeing as a cultural experience. Tourists can boycott but that won't make it go away.

It is 100% about being prude. The RLD is a practical way of handling the world's oldest profession and worth seeing as a cultural experience. I suggest you read something about how these brothels recruit and retain their workers from Asia and Eastern Europe. There's nothing prudish about objecting to exploitation at that magnitude.

yeah just ask him directly on Facebook;
but that would eliminate out all the entertaining melodrama here no?

I visit this forum because of the nice people and the wealth of good travel information. That being said, I wholeheartedly agree with Ms Jo about Rick's approach to an issue so exploitative as prostitution, legal or illegal. I think I can confidently say that no one aspires to a career in the sex trade and guiding tourists through any RLD is irresponsible and naive no matter the "enlightened" reason. Of course, when it comes to most social issues, Rick Steves and I are polar opposites. I have learned long ago to stay off his blog. Still enjoy his travel shows.

+1 for Tom.

I think most of you defending RS do not have a clue what sex trafficking means. It is not the same as sex trade. Maybe the old term " white slavery" will make make more sense. It is blatant exploitation and servitude for many of the women, especially the young ones. You can support legal prostitution as a pragmatic solution to an old problem if you like, but you must recognize the dark underbelly and should be revolted when a guidebook tries to turn these areas into tourist attractions worthy of a look in the name of " understanding" or " cultural education."

A mature approach would really mean making no assumptions, no distortions, and no judgements.

Well, I was traveling with a girlfriend a few years ago. We had a map but got a little turned around and ended up in the RLD. Hubby and I did a RS tour last year that included the RDL district. We were told in advance and those who did not want to see it were guided around it.

You could mount a similar 'argument' about visiting churches in the knowledge of so much child sexual abuse by clergy ... except it's not an argument, it's a very long bow.

It was good to read Douglas (of Illinois) as a voice of moderation and reason, but I found it difficult to reconcile this ...
"I also was profoundly moved at seeing women offering their bodies in that way and it really disgusted and saddened me. It's not something many Americans ever see in the US."
...given the events of last November.

It is also worth pointing out that the Red Light District in Amsterdam
is in the core of the historic center. The Oude Kerk, the Amstelkring
Museum, and much more of interest to visitors are located in the area.
It is the oldest neighborhood in the city.

For anyone about to make their first trip....
I will agree that this one has value from a historic and architectural standpoint. It also has one of the prettier canals in Amsterdam (I believe it was a section of Oudezijds Achterburgwal). We went in the early morning (to avoid the night activity; accidentaly stumbled into that when I was 18) and I snapped my favorite canal shot there. We did get a little tired of being constantly asked by young male tourists where that area was, though.

Yes, we went to Oude Kerk - right in the middle of the R.L.D. - and highly recommend even though it was largely stripped during the 1578 Alteration. Rembrandt was married and his wife is buried in that church. Some nice misericords, too. So, without getting into the ethics/morality of the 'trade', I'd hate to see it avoided for that reason when it has some redeeming qualities.

This is what Steve wrote about it for this website:

https://www.ricksteves.com/watch-read-listen/read/articles/can-a-prostitute-be-a-sight

I don't take it as suggesting that it should be on the must-see list as much preparing the curious (and unsuspecting) for what they may experience: just a frank evaluation. Consider also that some of the beggars and street peddlers of flowers, umbrellas, water, etc. in other European cities have also been trafficked. Yes, it's very sad.

For those making comparisons to visiting churches and whiskey distilleries, those are total straw man arguments( or long bows). No one visits churches to see the clergy, much less some priest abusing an altar boy. And whiskey bottles can never claim to be exploited or used by their consumer because they are not persons. Maybe if a tour included a visit to a homeless shelter for a "dose of culture" the whiskey comparison might be more accurate. Being against prostitution, regulated or not, doesn't make you unenlightened.

I think this is an important topic and I'm happy Ms. Jo brought it up. While legalizing prostitution, unionizing, and putting it out in the open addresses some of the safety issues, the fact remains are being exploited or are there involuntarily or chose it out of desperation and are not being paid what was promised. I'm not suggesting Rick pretend the Red Light Districts don't exist. But he can use the opportunity to educate so people fully understand what they are seeing.

And of course Rick and most people do not support human trafficking. But there are things that people do that indirectly support it. Telling yourself that everyone makes great money and are there because they chose it, and turning a blind eye to the fact that many are NOT there by choice, supports it. Making the RLD a popular tourist destination by paying for a guided tour that walks through the area or buying magnet or picture supports it. Eating or drinking at the bar across from the windows supports it.

While I agree that tourists tend to have in interest in crime or scandal, there is a big difference in taking a Jack the Ripper tour where atrocities occurred over a 100 years ago and visiting a RLD where they are currently happening.

And human trafficking is very real in the US and its getting worse. We were not dealing with it very well for a long time (as Douglas pointed out, arresting the prostitutes is not getting to the heart of the problem) but thankfully, that is starting to change as far as getting help for victims. But it is definitely slow change.

I've been reading this thread with interest and thanks Jo for starting it. So far it has kept on the rails and civilized and hopefully it will stay that way. It's good to see different viewpoints presented without being snarky and criticizing other's opinions.

Personally I don't agree with Jo's assessment that RS is condoning the sex trade or sex trafficking in his books or on his tours that take in the RLD's in several cities. Most of us here in the US are not exposed to RLDs because it's not legalized, localized, or regulated here and so it's not as apparent as in European cities. But, it's there nonetheless, and those who want to partake will find it.

I'm against everything bad and evil in this world that exploits other humans and their weaknesses, but I have to say I would rather have a well run/regulated bordello in my neighborhood than a crack house or a meth lab. Does that mean I condone the sex trade or sex trafficking? No, of course not.

That was my point. The argument is totally spurious.

Just because someone talks or writes about something doesn't mean they are promoting or endorsing it. After all, we are talking about it here and now.

Thanks, Jo, for a very timely topic.

While at university, I counseled women who were trying to get out of prostitution. Their stories were almost unanimous that they had been sexually abused at an early age. Other research tends to corroborate this. I would not be surprised if that were the case in countries where prostitution is legal.

Human trafficking involves more than sex trade, it is the exploitation of a human being for profit. Many of the people who attempt to sell flowers to tourists are victims as well. I am still haunted by the image of a young woman offering a rose for sale in the Circumvesuviana 25 years ago; she was clearly under duress, but at the time, I was unaware of what might be going on in her life.

Point taken David in Brisbane and thank you. I do not want to make any assumptions about any of the posters on this thread and whether they support or oppose prostitution. I too have counseled people who have been tragically affected by the sex trade and their stories are truly heartbreaking.

You say Rick Steves is promoting human trafficking. This seems like a
stretch. How is a walk through the red light district promoting
human trafficking?

It desensitizes public perception and normalizes the activity. But it requires moral judgment to exclude it.

I took Tom's advice and did some reading on the subject... It seems as far as anyone can tell, there is a lower percentage of what folks here like to call "human trafficking" (a notion from an episode of Law and Order most likely) in Amsterdam's RLD than in areas where prostitution is illegal. The Dutch approach to handling the problem is pragmatic and worth learning about for us prude Americans.
I find irony in the words "prude" and "puritan" and the Puritans who immigrated from England to the Netherlands before coming to America and instilling their ethos on our culture which is returning to Amsterdam, where their way of thinking wasn't embraced, to now pass judgement.

Part of my reply from the Travel Ethics thread, where this issue was raised:

The fact that it is legal in some countries is exactly the point. RS is not standing there with pompoms cheering people on to go see the red light districts in various countries, and I have never sensed any disrespect from him for the plight of sex workers. What I have heard from him is an illumination of a different way for a society to deal with the issue. RS is simply not ignoring it as most do, he isn't calling it right or wrong, but instead is simply informing lots of otherwise clueless Americans that this exists, there is value in that.

"..but should it be promoted as though it was a soft drink or a beer?"

I find this question a tad disingenuous, at best.

I agree with David from Brisbane. I don't think that R.S. is promoting prostitution by writing about it. I also don't think that majority of women are there against their will. Where else can she earn that much money? It has to be a way to find out if they are there against their will. Maybe police can do it. There are many vices (according to morals of the majority in our society) in this world. To make it illegal`won't make it disappear. It makes it only more dangerous. We in America are young society learning from its mistakes. Prohibition - it certainly did not work. Criminalizing drugs - it looks like it hasn't worked either. Prostitution - is illegal here (with the exception of certain parts of Nevada). But almost every city has neighborhoods were it thrives (and it's certainly much more dangerous for women than in countries where it is legal and regulated - taxed, regular health exams, police protection). Or another polarizing issue - abortion. But to get rid of it - is it the best way to ban it? Certainly not - it would still be around only more dangerous for women. The way to go is education and access to contraceptives. But there is certain party (which would be politically incorrect to name) in this country which wants to ban abortion and is also against sex education and access to contraceptives.
Now few philosophical questions. Should it be illegal for two consenting adults to have sex even if they are not married? In some societies it still is. Should it be illegal if they are married but not to each other? Should it be illegal if man gives money to woman after that? (or vice versa). Should it be illegal if woman asks for money after that (or before?). If man pays dinner before or after that? Or drinks? Or should it be illegal for a man to get a woman who by age could be his daughter or granddaughter? Just because he is rich and can raise her standard of living significantly? I have certain man in my mind but it would be politically incorrect to reveal his identity.
Or do you believe that she married him for his personality, smartness or handsomeness? I just want to show that the subject (question, theme) of prostitution is not crystal clear as it seemed at the beginning. It is not black and white but many shades of grey in between (more than fifty). I did not write this because I condone prostitution. I wrote it because I think that none of us has right to impose our societal morals on others with the exception of our kids before they are of legal age.

".Although some women choose prostitution as a lucrative career, others (likely most) are forced into it by circumstance -- poverty, drug addiction, abusive men, and immigration scams." - Rick Steves

Well, there's that.

Well, even with circumstances she still has a choice. It's the same like I would say - because you are poor you are forced to steal and etc.

This topic sounds like exactly the kind of thing that the Travel Ethics discussion was asking.

Well, even with circumstances she still has a choice. It's the same
like I would say - because you are poor you are forced to steal and
etc.

I don't know as it's that cut and dried, especially in parts of the world where it's long been ingrained in the culture and/or opportunities/education/safety nets for women and/or the impoverished in general (prostitution isn't limited to females) are lacking. This as just one of the causes in Thailand:

"Sense of duty: According to traditional customs, the first duty of a girl is to support her family in any way she can. Due to this sense of duty and to pay off family debts, many girls have been forced into prostitution."

By "impoverished" I don't mean just poor and hungry, I mean destitute and starving; maybe abused from the get-go. Dehumanized. Maybe lured in with promise of a better life, smuggled to foreign country with no papers, beaten up, beaten down, deprived of funds...

Trafficking of children is also an enormous problem and it's not like they have much of a choice. In the same shoes, I don't know what I'd do just to survive? Tough subject.

But there are things that people do that indirectly support it. Telling yourself that everyone makes great money and are there because they chose it, and turning a blind eye to the fact that many are NOT there by choice, supports it. Making the RLD a popular tourist destination by paying for a guided tour that walks through the area or buying magnet or picture supports it. Eating or drinking at the bar across from the windows supports it.

Kristen - I agree with most of your post but I respectfully think this is wrong. Prostitution exists because there are customers. Walking past the windows does not "support it." Even looking in the window does not support it (window shopping doesn't keep regular businesses open either). Having a drink in a cafe across the street does not support it. It just so happens that many European cities condense it into specific areas and regulate it. That other activities occur in the same neighborhood has nothing to do with it. In a district as large as Amsterdam's, there are plenty of non-sex trade businesses within the same neighborhood.

I still think that exposing people to the realities, even just those one can see from the sidewalk, is a good way for people to realize just how troubling some aspects of the sex industry are. One quick peek in a "window" and it's pretty obvious that it's not the Hollywood view of prostitution.

Has anyone actually been on the Amsterdam tour to comment on exactly how the guides handle these areas on the tour, including the treatment they give this subject (I assume they are local guides)? It is unclear whether the criticism is to the mere "idea" of having tourists walk through the area or whether it is directly tour specific, including the content projected to the tour group. Moreover, I would like to see the Amsterdam (local) perspective on this topic - specifically, how do locals at large, including politicians, community groups, other folks, and the participants themselves think about this topic. That perspective is totally missing from this conversation, which makes it a wholly incomplete discussion. Projecting your own values and feelings on the way people of another country approach, regulate, or conceive this topic doesn't expand the body of knowledge, rather it creates an echo chamber of like-minded views (and some dissents of course). I thought that one of the key objectives of travel is to learn and see things from another perspective, not to pre-decide what to filter out from further examination as if the "case was closed" and no further examination is required. I think listening (to locals) with an open mind is much more important than taking direction from a guidebook on how to avoid certain areas completely, which means ultimately disengaging from the topic on any level during one's travels.

With all due respect, I think suggesting that Rick is "promoting" human trafficking or that the limited text in his travel guidebooks is capable of steering someone's moral compass on these subjects (and therefore he should be held responsible), is a big affront to Rick and those who read his guidebooks. Limited exposure to something is not the same as deeply thinking about it; the latter requires much more than going on a tour or reading a guidebook. I respect the intelligence of each person to pursue information in a way that helps them understand a complex topic - if that (initial) gateway, however limited or thin, happens to be through Rick's books and tours, so be it. I wholeheartedly agree with Douglas' comments.

The problem is that people walking by for a peek are not seeing the reality.

I have no problem at all with legal prostitution, when the transaction is between two consenting adults. Certainly it is safer for the women than the illegal prostitution we have in the US. (Says she who comes from the land of the Green River Killer). But those of us who are protesting the trafficking aspect are not talking about the sex trade per se. We are talking about human trafficking---the buying and selling of (mainly) young women who were lured, abducted, or sold into the "business" against their will. They are then smuggled into other countries without documentation ( or their passports are confiscated) and they are powerless. It happens in the US and all over the world.

Now someone upstream mentioned that in Amsterdam at least the practice is highly regulated and policed to prevent that. I hope that is true---and effective. But what about Frankfurt and other cities?

I hope they leave this thread up. The discussion has been really interesting and respectful despite the differing points of view.

Douglas, I definitely see your point and agree it's a fine line. Walking by a window because it's the quickest route to your destination or you are going to some unrelated business in the area is one thing. But if you are doing anything that contributes to it being a popular tourist locale-taking a guided tour or drinking at one of the bars- I think you are supporting it. And I mean supporting it from a mental standpoint by accepting it as a part of life and financially, albeit very indirectly, by supporting the businesses that benefit from the foot traffic in the area.

I would absolutely believe statistics that there is less trafficking, addiction, sexually transmitted diseases, etc in regards to prostitution in Amsterdam versus the US. That's definitely an advantage of legalizing and then regulating. But my issue is this: There are some people that just don't believe that trafficking happens and many people don't realize how prevalent it is. And then they go to Amsterdam and see a very glamorized/cartoon-y version of prostitution which just reinforces those beliefs. Since Rick has a big interest in social justice, it is a disconnect that he doesn't spend more time talking about it.

Also, I had never even thought about the people selling flowers. That's a good point.

EDIT: Since others posted since I wrote my post. I know a lot of people that enjoyed their walk through the RLD of Amsterdam (don't know about Germany) and did not see it as dirty or sad. They saw it has validation that the women seemed perfectly fine. And maybe many are but we also know many are not. I'm not passing judgement on a cultural choice to legalize prostitution or to even participating in prostitution between two consenting adults. I just don't want to ignore the dark side.

Agnes, you have a good point about the tour since I never actually took a tour through the area. Maybe they do discuss that. I discussed with locals, taxi drivers, bartenders, etc and heard a range.

I discussed with locals, taxi drivers, bartenders, etc and heard a range.

Kristen, do you mind sharing what you heard? I know it's a small sample size but at least it will help round out this conversation, or add something to it. It's odd to me to talk about another country in a critical way with no input from the residents of that country - don't they have a voice too and should be part of the conversation?

Also, I had never even thought about the people selling flowers.
That's a good point.

Someone very recently on the forum did an "LOL" about a restaurant employee kicking one of those peddlers. However persistent they can be, physically abusing an individual who may already be abused - and hasn't physically abused anyone else - bothers me? Their efforts can be discouraged without assault, or so has been our experience.

Doesn't banning prostitution fall under the heading of Legislating Morality?

Sasha said: "The problem is that people walking by for a peek are not seeing the reality."

Well, some will see/know the reality. And, some won't see/know the reality. The world deserves more credit than this...

Kristen, as for keeping the thread up, I see no reason for this to be considered a rogue "Weekend Topic". Perfectly valid topic imho.

A fascinating topic this . I read through the thread ( although , I am sure I have missed a good deal ) . For those of us who have a deep interest , this book from 1973 is an eye opener on the subject of prostitution . I was twenty - six when I first read this , and have revisited it many times over . Working in NYC in the theatre district in the seventies and eighties , the impact was devastating . Gail Sheehy's brilliant tale - " Hustling " https://www.amazon.com/Hustling-Gail-Sheehy/dp/B000O5XQJS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1491784752&sr=8-1&keywords=hustling+gailSheehy This review will explain - By a customer on November 1, 1998
Format: Paperback
HUSTLING, by Gail Sheehy, is a rich and in-depth exposè of the world of prostitution that existed in New York City in the early and mid-seventies. Spanning all levels of the prostitution industry, from street-pros to high-class call-girls, the pimps, johns, the police dept. and even the political end of the spectrum, City Hall, Sheehy weaves a wonderfully detailed account, without the clinical "documentary" approach, of a city and its people being eaten from the inside out. Extremely well researched, with a plethora of interviews, this book introduced and explained a world so far away from my own, yet so intruiging, that it remains a favourite of mine to this day. If I could give an example of the "feel" of this book I would instantly recall the motion picture "TAXI DRIVER", by Martin Scorcese, for both mood (dark), setting (street-level, New York City of the 1970's), style (emotional, realistic, gritty), and , of course, subject matter. I highly recommend this outing by an excellent writer, Gail Sheehy.

My extremely small sample size of four:
1. Taxi driver: They have a great life. They make their own hours. They have a union and health insurance. They make 2000 euro a week. But they may have up to 20 customers in a day.

1. Second taxi driver: You only do that kind of work if you like it.

2. A waiter at a restaurant in/near the Red Light District (maybe a street over from what seemed to be the main canal): Wished people would not associate Amsterdam with the Red Light District. The city had a lot more to offer and most people that were using the Red Light District "services" were tourists.

3. A bartender (the only female of the 4) at a bar right in the heart of the Red Light District. The bar was a pub style, lively music, and seemed out of place to me but there were a lot of people there. It was early afternoon and a weekday. Our bartender felt sorry for the girls that were working then because they wouldn't be making a lot of money. There was a hierarchy system as far as when/where you worked and how much veto power you had. The girls that worked the worst hours and worst locations tended to not speak Dutch and were not making good money at all. There were also non window situations (like private clubs or parties) that were popular because you could make a lot more money but they were a lot more dangerous.

EDIT: I don't know why my numbering system is off!! I also would like to hear more local point of views which is why I kept trying to talk with people about it. I got the impression they were a sick of talking about it but all of these people worked in the tourist indusry so probably were tired of answering questions about it.

"Has anyone actually been on the Amsterdam tour to comment on exactly how the guides handle these areas on the tour, including the treatment they give this subject (I assume they are local guides)?"

Yes, I've been on the Belgium & Holland tour and the group was given an evening tour of the RLD with a local guide. From what I can remember, he explained the history of this activity, the attitude towards it in Holland and how it's regulated. As with our visit to a "Coffee Shop" earlier in the afternoon, I got the impression that the tour was simply intended to show this aspect of the Dutch culture without being judgmental about it. We were told at the beginning of the tour not to take any photos of the girls as there could be "unfortunate consequences" (ie: a large bouncer appearing suddenly and a camera ending up in a canal). However despite that warning, a couple of people from our group took DSLR's and took many pictures. I may have further information in my trip notes, but I'm too lazy to find them at the moment.

There was another group touring that area at the same time, with a Spanish speaking guide. His tour appeared to be considerably more entertaining, complete with a lot of naughty gestures. His group was doubled over with laughter for much of the tour.

I think Ms. Jo paints a very broad stroke by saying RS "promotes" human trafficking in his books. The RLD has been and will always be an area of interest to visitors of any city that has one - people are curious about such things - it is human nature. There is a difference between informing & promoting. There are many guide books and tours - even tours by locals that cover the RLD.

There is a huge difference between prostitution & human trafficking - the first is voluntary while the latter is slavery. I am no expert on the % of workers in the RLD who are actual forced into to life but if it is significant as some seem to think then The Netherlands is turning a blind eye to it and shame on them.

Saying these people ended up there because they had no choice is another sweeping statement. Unless they are being forced into prostitution by threat of harm to them or loved ones, there are always choices - even if the choice is to be homeless and beg on the streets. I have know many destitute women in my life - a few turned to prostitution for a time but most pulled themselves up with hard work & determination.

If you really want to delve...if there were no patrons there would be no trafficking so the fault actually lies with those who utilize the services of sex workers.

But...there is a reason it is called the oldest profession.

I am no expert on the % of workers in the RLD who are actual forced into to life but if it is significant as some seem to think then The Netherlands is turning a blind eye to it and shame on them.

I have a friend/colleague in the Dutch military who's husband worked for the police department in Maastricht, and I asked him once on his opinion of the effect of legalized prostitution on human trafficking. His answer surprised me: He wasn't sure because these things are so difficult to track and prosecute. The only thing he was sure about was that the industry couldn't survive without a steady flow of trafficked women or some other form of illegal coercion (debt bondage, blackmail, drug addiction, etc.).

I have no idea if this applies in Germany or Belgium as well, but it wouldn't surprise me.

"so the fault actually lies with those who utilize the services of sex workers"
Really, Christi? Then how to explain that I was accosted by girls of certain trade in Paris close to Pigalle, in Prague on Wenceslas Square, in Ostrava close to Main Train Station, in Vienna on Guertel, in Las Vegas on the Strip and it took me some time to convince them that I was not interested. IMHO it is politically correct to show them as victims. In overwhelming majority it's not so.

I ... was profoundly moved at seeing women offering their bodies in that way and it really disgusted and saddened me. It's not something many Americans ever see in the US.

We've been to Amsterdam twice on RS tours. The first time the guide took time before the RLD segment to talk about legalized prostitution, told us how it works, told us not to take pictures, and told us that most of the people walking through the area were tourists, rubbernecking. I asked what the prostitutes thought about being ogled by curious tourists; she replied "They don't like it." I did stay with the tour, but kept my eyes down and my pace brisk.

On our second RS trip, I just skipped that segment of the day's activities. I do consider the topic of legalized prostitution to be part of our cultural education, but I also think that respect trumps curiosity.

Should a guidebook in 2017 have a section on the RLD, there's no definitive answer. On one hand everyone traveling to Amsterdam knows it's there some and want to experience something that doesn't exist in some parts of the world, but having the information available to avoid it would be good too. Not to make light of the situation all I do know for sure is DO NOT ATTEMPT TO TAKE THEIR PHOTO! But I digress.

As we all know one of Ricks mantras is "Travel as a Political Act". How this plays into legal prostitution is open to debate with human trafficking part of the equation. But to ignore it completely doesn't serve anyone or anything. Who knows by promoting it in his books maybe something positive can come of it.

I remember on my first visit to Amsterdam a large part of the women working in the RLD were women of color, probably from old Dutch colonies. On my last trip I noticed many of the women were of Eastern European and Baltic States origin. Yes, things have changed, the vast majority young and very beautiful. I can only surmise the economic impact of making a lot of money, be it of their own volition to come to Amsterdam to support family members that live in a location with less economic opportunities or human trafficking we can only speculate. The truth probably lies in the middle.

The only thing he was sure about was that the industry couldn't survive without a steady flow of trafficked women or some other form of illegal coercion (debt bondage, blackmail, drug addiction, etc.).

Tom - This is one of the best statements of the thread. If RS added something to this effect in his guidebooks, it would succinctly explain the issue of whether this is really consenting adults or exploitation (and even human trafficking).

I can imagine there are woman that don't mind, or even somewhat enjoy, dancing in a club. They can make good money (relatively speaking). But it's pretty hard for me to imagine any woman choosing and enjoying prostitution. They might do it to feed a drug habit, because they were abused as children, or they have been trafficked. They might not be physically forced, but still don't really have much choice either.

Prostitutes in windows are certainly a fixture in the RLD, but these districts are filled with other businesses too. I still content that people that visit or shop in an RLD, but not prostitution, are doing nothing wrong and are not promoting the prostitution and dark underside of it. Same goes for the tour guides and guidebook authors.

"But it's pretty hard for me to imagine any woman choosing and enjoying prostitution."

I saw a report some time ago on 60 Minutes or a program of that type that profiled one of the "ranches" in Nevada, and the women working there seemed to be there completely of their own free will. The money is certainly one reason for that.

Emma, the information in your post is what I've been told as well by friends who live in Europe.

Of course not every woman/man has been forced into the sex trade but it happens more frequently than than we may be aware of, and in different levels in different countries (I'm including those outside Europe.) I also don't think any of us on this thread live in proximity to the sort of poverty which exists in third-world countries.

Traditional brothels are dying out as most now advertise online on specialist sites.

http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21611074-how-new-technology-shaking-up-oldest-business-more-bang-your-buck

If you are worried about human trafficking in general prostitution isn't the half of it.

Well said. Within human trafficking, prostitution is probably a small percentage. But a thread about trafficking chambermaids won't get 60 posts like this one.

Reversing that. . . Within the realm of prostitution, human trafficking represents a large percentage. Which is the point Ms. Jo started this thread to assert. Now do you skeptics believe her? Or will you disregard Emma's well-informed and thought-provoking post?

"Within the realm of prostitution, human trafficking represents a large percentage. Which is the point Ms. Jo started this thread to assert. Now do you skeptics believe her? Or will you disregard Emma's well-informed and thought-provoking post?"

I doubt if most of the posters on this forum are skeptical about the whole issue of human trafficking and that it indeed does involve prostitution in general and possibly in the RLD's in European cities. And I think that argument by Ms Jo and others is definitely correct. I certainly am not skeptical about it having read studies that put the percentage of those voluntarily participating in the sex trade at about 20%, which leaves about 80% of them being forced or coerced or conned into the business against their will. I think that's a horrible situation.

However, to suggest that Rick Steve's is condoning or even 'promoting human trafficking in his books or on his tours' (Ms Jo's words, not mine) is taking the argument where it really has no business going. Ignoring or going out of one's way to avoid a RLD is not going to change the situation and a bit of education and enlightenment about it may actually encourage more people to voice their opposition and maybe work to do something about this whole issue. Education is never a bad thing. I also don't think those who read RS books or take his tours are forced to participate in any walking tours that they don't want to. We all have the choice to decide what we want to be educated about.

Wow, Emma. Thank you for the education. It's incredible what I don't know about this subject. You have posted a real eye opener for me. So sad...... Thanks.

I'm pretty sure there isn't much about the practice that is particularly savory.

Three questions:

Do you want to regulate morality or do you want to stop the crimes when they become intertwined into the practice?

I would suppose that RS doesn't take people places where they don't want to go, so I assume tourists are attracted to this for what ever reason; so RS is in effect treating it as just one more "Tourist Attraction"?

If you believe the practice to be destructive to the individuals involved, how does treating it as a tourist attraction help stop the destructive process? How do the victims benefit from us learning more about this part of the culture?

Wow. Thanks, Emma.

A little off topic, but I am more disturbed by tourists idolizing and adoring sites in Rome (and elsewhere) that were only possible to be built through the use of slave labor. My too sense...

Individual cases (however many) are no reason for extrapolations and generalisations to be made about an overall situation in a particular European red light district.
Human trafficking is illegal everywhere and I think law enforcement authorities must be given sufficient resources to tackle the vile scourge.
Sex work (the 'p' word being loaded and offensive to many) is legal in many countries and in red light areas is easily observed and regulated by local councils, health authorities and law enforcement officers (including migration).
This post has veered into 'alternative fact' territory as personal judgements have poured forth. So how about we show some respect to these women (and men) who work in a legal sex industry, and out of choice, for whatever reason, wherever they are.

@Ilja - you totally missed my point. Just because the girls were trying to hustle you - you still had the choice to utilize their services or not. I've not heard of someone being forced by the sex worker to purchase their services - that part is still voluntary. Otherwise it is call being mugged and there is generally no sex.

The entire motivation behind prostitution and human trafficking is MONEY - period. If there were no people looking to pay for sex then there would be NO sex workers voluntary or forced - period. The topic can be discussed and argued till kingdom come but as long as there are people looking to pay for sexual services there will be people looking to make money by exploiting others. It is an unfortunate part of human nature.

This is a very complex issue with many layers - I just don't agree Ms' Jo's statement that RS promotes it.

I am more disturbed by tourists idolizing and adoring sites in Rome
(and elsewhere) that were only possible to be built through the use of
slave labor. My too sense...

You mean like the pre-fire U.S. White House and Capitol buildings as well as some other early government buildings in Washington D.C? Much of extant 18th-century Williamsburg and the antebellum South? Mt. Vernon and Monticello? The mission compounds in California? And then there's Columbus Day...

Slavery is not only a dark side of history but still exists today in parts of the world, depending on how you define it. I don't see visiting these places as "idolizing" as much as learning about them? Before they visit, I don't know how many tourists are even aware that the coliseum was built by slaves, just as they're not aware that there's no record of any Christians ever being martyred in that arena. Education is probably the best reason for quality sightseeing versus just snapping the picture and moving on?

Sure, you can find these things out just by doing some research but as many of us know all too well, how many tourists do that before they go?

(Sorry, didn't mean to jump the track but it is sort of peripherally relevant to the subject.)

This is only my opinion because I have never visited a RLD. But I seems they are regulated by the government and they are health tested and behave behind closed doors. This has not been my experience in Barcelona. I was staying on La Rambla last August and groups of prostitutes were on every street corner from about 8 pm to 6 am smoking cigarettes and offering propositions. They would grab your arm or try to touch you as you tried to walk passed. I would wake up from my hotel and hear them fighting in the streets. I don't condone prostitution but some cities are at least trying to regulate it.