Weapon - sort of

Sharon,

I wouldn't advise carrying a weapon of any sort while travelling in Europe. The laws vary in each country and even possession of something like OC (Pepper Spray) could be illegal. Using something like that on one of their taxpaying citizens (even those of the criminal type) could result in some nasty legal problems for you!

It's important to remember that outside of the U.S., you DON'T have the "right" to carry defensive products like Pepper Spray, Mace or whatever. That also applies in Canada! I know that, as I've seen a few cases where people were charged for assault when using products of that kind to defend themselves from a "perceived threat".

Where have you been "Reading a lot about thieves, muggers, and train safety"??? Generally speaking, travel in Europe is safer than many of the large cities on this side of the Atlantic. While some of the members here on the HelpLine have had minor crime problems (wallets taken by pickpockets, etc.), I think it's safe to say that the majority here have no problems at all.

Hopefully some of the others will have a few thoughts on this subject.

Happy travels!

Muggers? Train safety? Where are you reading these reports? As Ken posted, such activities are so seldom, that I don't even think I have ever heard of them from anyone I know.

Pick-pockets exist for sure, but pepperspray is not going to help you there.

Leave this idea in the dust, read some more on this forum about pick-pockets, money belts and/or pouches, and tourist scams. This will give you all the protection you will need.

As a side note, Germany is one of the safest places you will ever travel. Probably a lot safer than Colorado. People leave their babies sleeping in their strollers when they go into stores, when they find gloves on the street, they lay them up on fences so if the person returns, they will see them easily. Once left my purse sitting on a bench in Straubing and came back after an hour and it was still sitting there.

A weapon,, really,, thats such a bad idea. Do you use pepper spray at home,, or carry a gun??

You do not need a weapon,, you need common sense to avoid being a victim of most tourist related crimes( which is mostly pick pocketing,, in which case a weapon is useless).

Anyone remember the pepper spray scene on the train from the film The Darjeeling Limited? As for “molested in Madrid,” is that it? Nothing more to add? BTW, Sharon is going to Germany (can only use it on animals) and Poland (not sure about legality of mace there). She’s not going to Spain.

If you are considering traveling to a place that you feel is so unsafe that you "need" a weapon, perhaps you may want to rethink your plans.

You do NOT need a weapon to travel to Europe. Pickpockets and tourist scams are far more prevalent than violent crime. EDUCATE yourself about those things and you will be better off than carrying pepper spray or something similar.

You do realize that for pepper spray to be effective, it must be in your hand, right? Imagine your trip with you constantly clutching said pepper spray. After all, "thieves and muggers" are not going to wait while you dig through your day bag for pepper spray ...

Is that the kind of trip you really want? And where are you reading these kinds of stories?

Some thoughts:

I've never felt unsafe in Europe. I suppose if you didn't use common sense, it's possible to find yourself in unsafe circumstances.

Mugging doesn't seem to be the common European thief's style. Pursesnatching, pickpocketing, car prowling and various street cons seem to be the crime du jour.

As far as weapons go, I do buy a swiss army knife every trip. It's not a weapon, however, it's a tool. This year I'm going to Scandinavia for the first time. I noticed Danish anti-gang law only allows knives with a certain length blade (so maybe there are some muggers). I'll have to be careful not to exceed that limit - hopefully stores won't sell me an illegal knife.

We have a monthly gathering of the area posters on the third Saturday morning of each month for coffee and sharing of experiences. PM me or Lee or details. Let us assure you that you have no need for personal protection other than common sense and a little knowledge.

Might need that in NY, Houston, LA, Detroit or any number of "large" cities in the US, but EUROPE?

Do you normally carry a weapon in your city????

I was molested in Madrid on vacation.

As regards to train safety, were you referring to taking the night train from Berlin-Warsaw or vice versa? Or, just taking night trains in eastern Europe? Definitely, taking the night train between France and Germany has no safety risks, aside from common sense measures, which I have done a number of times over the years but always in a general seating area (Grossraumwagen)...no problems.

Kate, would you care to share the circumstances of your ordeal? I am sorry that this happened to you and I'm wondering if you have any insights or important warnings to perhaps keep this from happening to others.

I can't speak for Poland, but I feel very safe traveling in Germany. The people have a moral sense far exceeding that in the U.S. I've spent over 100 days in Germany in the last ten years, and been on hundreds of trains, and never experienced or seen seen any crime.

"... Germany (can only use it on animals) ..."

You can only sell and carry it as a deterrent for animals. That's caused by a catch 22 situation created by the weapon law (chemical irritants for humans must be animal tested for safety) and the animal protection law (banning animal testing for weapons), so marketing it as an irritant for humans is impossible.

But if you're in a self defense situation (as defined in article 32 of the penal code) you can of course use it against your attacker. It's an improvised weapon, just like an iron skillet or a can of paint would be.

But I agree that carrying a weapon (and chemical irritants are weapons) across multiple, foreign jurisdictions isn't a good idea -- and certainly not necessary for traveling in Poland and Germany.

....adding insult to injury would be having your pepper spray pick-pocketed......

Just so we're quoting actual numbers instead of just making generalizations... for the period of 1998-2000, the US experienced 42 murders per 100,000 people, making us the 24th most murderous country in the world. Poland had 56 (rank #20) and Germany had 12 (rank #49) Source: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention).

In a listing of all countries that submit reliable statistics (many don't ) for all types of crime in the year 2006, the US ranked 17th, Germany was 9th. Poland didn't make the top 20. Source: The Economist World in Figures, 2006 Edition. You'll never guess which countries made the top 4!

Tom, those lists and stats are usually rather useless. Big numbers can scare you but be meaningless, and small numbers can lull you into a false sense of security( where you then put your purse on the back of your chair and it goes bye bye)

We have never had a "drive by" shooting where I live. And only a few murders a year,, but we have a high property crime rate,, since its a properous neighborhood, lots of house and car break ins. You can walk around at night here safely,,but for goodness sake don't leave a dollar on your dashboard type of place.

Sharon,, basically, in what situations have you actually heard about that a weapon would be any help. I travel alone to Europe,, or occaisonally alone with one of my kids,, and I have never felt the need of a weapon.

Be alert and use common sense.

"Big numbers can scare you but be meaningless, and small numbers can lull you into a false sense of security" None of which is intended by quoting the stats. But numbers can help compare and get a larger perspective, before we go making inaccurate statements.

And adding to the chorus... Sharon, you'll be safe, leave the pepper spray at home and let your brain be your biggest source of protection

I think this is a troll. If not, maybe traveling isn't your thing. Stay in North America where it is "safe".

I don't think she is troil. I think it was an honest question, probably, from a first time traveler. One of the great disservices that travel sites -- all of them -- do is the discussion of problems. Of course the great service is the solutions but the discussion is constantly about pickpockets, slashing backpacks, dishonest taxi driver (guess that is always true), short change, over billing, etc., etc. to the point that you are headed into a den of thieves and you better have your money belt stapled to your body.

The reality is that the vast majority of traveler never have any problems. Of course, we don't want emphasis that too much because then people will be lazy and not take precautions. This is a lose lose game. Don't have any idea where the middle ground is so I guess the discussion will continue.

After your fist trip, Sharon, you will be OK. Come have coffee with us on Saturday, 17th.

Our film industry also can give a first-time traveler a false impression of the dangers they are likely to face. Remember the thread about the posibility of being kidnapped at CDG?

Just carry a small purse sized bottle of aerosol hairspray. It'll burn eyes pretty good. Trust me, Im a woman. I have involuntarily tested this out for years. LOL.

We had no trouble in the Germany train station. Pepper spray is useless. The pickpocketers are raised to be fast sneaky. They will pick you pocket and be way out of sight before you even realize you things are missing.

WOW! Did not expect such a response. Yes, indeedy.
A first time traveler outside of this hemisphere. Lots of warnings just in the plain old travel guides. I'm not worried so much about pick pockets (yes, common sense)and am happy to view all of the positive comments from people who haven't had any problems. Trains (and train stations) are the major concern. I've read they are dangerous at night. And I will be taking a night train from Munich to Berlin and later from Berlin to Crakow. It is the Polish trains that get the worse press and I actually met a stocky physically fit guy who got mugged on one. Stories of people trying to get into sleeping compartments (and where were the porters?) and drugging and gassing and almost unbelievable stuff, but---no one is debunking any of it. The cost of flying in Poland is beyond my pocketbook - so train it is. I would just like to protect myself particulary if I have to leave my locked compartment and use the loo (no w/c in Polish sleeping compartments -1st class or otherwise). I get the message tho that pepper spray is not the way to go. Thanks to all who chipped in with their assistance. Sharon

Sharon,

If you have time, I'd suggest having coffee with "the gang" in Colorado, as Frank mentioned. You'll be able to learn TONS of stuff in a short period of time.

Cheers!