WARNING TO POTENTIAL RAILPASS BUYERS

Yes, it's a shame that railpass buyers don't put more effort into research before purchasing. However, not all railpasses are equal in their "dirty little secrets". The family of Swiss Passes are an example of a truly wise investment if spending any length of time in the country and/or riding the high mountain private rails. Swiss Passes can save you a substantial amount of money.

Go to Rick Steves home page and click on RailPasses along the top of the screen for lots of information. I believe his company also sells more railpasses than any other US outlet.

Lee,

It's unfortunate that this "dirty little secret" wasn't mentioned more prominently, so that potential customers would be fully aware of it.

I spent a few hours "crunching the numbers" and came to the conclusion that a Railpass would provide minimal benefit for my trips this year, so I'll be going with P-P tickets (which of course include the reservation fees, if applicable).

`Probably 10 percent of railpass travelers would have traveled more cheaply by buying tickets as they went.´

That seems like an extremely low estimate. I´m guessing the use of the word `probably´ is a nice legalistic fudge.

There are passes available for travel within the rail networks of Belgium and the Netherlands that can save travelers a significant amount of money if they plan to take a few domestic trips. These are sold directly by the respective national rail companies, not third party vendors. The passes are as easy to buy at the station as a point-to-point ticket. No supplements, no reservation fees, no mark-ups, but they are not valid for Thalys, Eurostar or international ICE trains.

I guess I have seen enough warnings and disclaimers that the reservations are required, that in itself is not the issue.

It is an issue when a Rail Company limits railpass tickets to literally a handful(less than a dozen) on a large popular train. It is even more of an issue that now that highspeed travel is becoming the norm, such that intercity and regional trains seem to be harder to come by.

I would suspect (hope!) that eventually a tipping point comes and there will be less restrictions for passholders as highspeed volume grows another 50% or so.

I still like passes, they are easy and convienient, and I always compare P to P with a pass. In regards to the quote from the railpass guide "10% of travellers would have ..." I assume one reason for the low number is that it claims to include only those that compared a pass with P to P, and decided the pass was better, when in practice it was not. It would not include the many that decided P to P was better, never buying a pass.

I also meant to add that I have found that the value of a Railpass has diminished as my travel style has matured. In my younger days, a pass then, and still now made sense when I was doing lots of long hops from one place to another.

Having hit the highlights of Europe, I find myself covering a region, revisiting the highlights and then exploring in depth a smaller area. These itineraries make much less sense for a pass.

Add to that, some of the eastern countries many are now exploring are less of a pass value (if an option) and if a very long hop is needed, budget flights are tempting rather than 8 hours on a train.

Overall, the landscape for passes has changed greatly, if not my needs as a traveller.

I want to thank those of you who warned me of this very thing a few months ago. I had used railpasses on my first
European trip and just assumed I would do the same for my upcoming trip. We are travelling thru Germany, Italy, France, and Spain, so it seemed to just make sense to get a pass. I compared costs against Rick's p2p map and I still thought it was a good deal. It wasn't until I checked on prices on each country's rail sites that I realized what a savings was possible. I am saving over $1000 by purchasing point to point tickets! Thank you all!

"Probably 10 percent of railpass travelers would have traveled more cheaply by buying tickets as they went."

Notice, that's 10% of all railpass travelers, NOT all travelers. (I still think that's low.) I used a railpass in 1988 ($160 for 16 consecutive days). That pass paid for itself. So when I went back in 2000, I bought another pass. After I came home, I figured the cost of the trains I had actually taken, and I think I about broke even, +/-. But there were some other trains I could have used that would have saved me money p-p. On seven trips since then, I have always done the math in advance and never bought a railpass. Had I, I always would have spent too much.

The fare map that Rick offers consistently over-estimates the price of tickets. Frankfurt to Munich is shown as $130 vs. $123 at today's exchange rate. Frankfurt to Berlin is shown as $160 vs $149 today. OK, not big differences, but always high.

One big problem with it is that it can't keep up with the exchange rate. Right now it is pretty close. I don't know if it was recently updated, or if the prices are based on a much earlier exchange rate, which just happens to be close to current. The other problem is that it assumes you will be using the fastest trains. There are a lot of other trains, often slower, always less expensive, than the prices on that map.

I already have the railpass. I am getting nervous now about being able to get reservations for 5 people on the trains after we arrive. Since the railpass is only first class, am I to understand that we will have trouble getting 5 reservations on a train? It is one rail pass, a saver for 5 people.
Thank you

"deepest discounted tickets ... are ... generally not refundable or changeable."

In Germany, Sparpreis and Europa-Spezial tickets have limited refundability but are not completely non-refundable. Up until the day before travel, you can return these tickets for a refund less €15. From the day of travel forward, they are non-refundable. Compare that to p-p tickets purchased from RailEurope. RailEurope tickets are only refundable at 78% of the ticket price less the reservation fee, which is completely non-refundable, and then only if the ticket is returned to RE before the day of travel or stamped "not used" at the station where the travel would have started.

I have a page on my website where I compare a railpass (German Rail Twin) to using point-point and Länder tickets. We started in Stuttgart, went to Rothenburg odT, then Berchtesgaden, the Oberallgäu with a day trip to Lindau, then to Sigmaringen by way of Ulm. The last leg was back to Stuttgart using local transit district tickets. I would not have used a day of a railpass for that part, regardless.

My wife and I actually made this trip in 2002, but I have updated it to prices as of 2008. At the time (2008), a DB Twin pass would have been $480 for both of us. We actually did the trip, using a combination of a Baden-Württemburg, a Schönes-Wochenende, and 4 Bayern-Tickets, for $272, almost a 50% savings.

The whole landscape of rail travel in Europe has changed significantly over the past few years, making passes less valuable on the whole. You really have to do significant research to figure out whether a pass is worth it for you, which is a shame, because it used to be so simple -- passes were relatively cheap, convenient, and valid on practically all trains, with minimum charges for seat reservations. Not so today.

The last time I got a pass was for a visit to the UK about four years ago, and that proved not to be such a good idea. This was after British Rail was dissolved into a bunch of confusing private rail companies, all of which have different policies about accepting the pass. Like, there might be two ways to get from Point A to Point B, from different stations in London, but you could only use one of those railroads because the other railroad didn't accept the pass in that case.

It's really unfortunate, and I believe short-sighted, that the railroads are starting to limit the number of reservations available to passholders, plus making it hard to make reservations. This sort of thing makes passes, most of which are already too expensive, less valuable.

I agree with Steve's last post. We bought a Scanrail pass, just the 4 day one, right at $300 a piece. Train travel in Scandinavia can be expensive, and the point to point would have cost us much more. The savings on the ferry and boats, however, were the real selling point for us.

Railpasses CAN be a good value but people have to do their homework to find out. I've found them to be usefull if you are traveling longer distances and can either travel a lot in the timeframe or use each day of a flexi-pass. Seat reservations are not all that expensive with a pass and I never found a train full or "out of pass reservations."

For shorter trips, especially in southern Europe, it can be cheaper getting individual tickets.

Charity:

Several things to remember. Even though your passes are first class, you are free to use Second Class as well.

The reservations with tight restrictions are really only on the premium trains, and even then, if there is space, they will generally honor the pass.

If a premium train is unavailable, there is nearly always a slower intercity or regional train going the same place, just that the schedule may be more infrequent or at an odder time.

Need to also keep in mind that rail passes are only good on trains where space is available. No available space means the rail pass will not get you on the train. This was common at the end of April due to the ash cloud combined with French and German train strikes while the northern European airports were closed.

Edwin

Another posting appeared today (5/16) from yet someone else who bought a railpass and is wondering how to get reservations.

Yeah. looking back I guess we overpaid by about 20%, maybe worth skipping the hassle of buying locally, but let me mention some other aspects.

Yes, it was nice having the pass in hand when going up to the Amsterdam Schiphol Airport Train window to get it activated. The first person was scornful and not helpful, but the second was in a better mood, I guess. Wanted to go to Brugge (they seem to prefer that to "Bruges") through Antwerp, but the train platform was confusing and then a train came on time but didn't load passengers. They had made an overhead announcement (impossible to hear with other trains coming) that there was a problem, and we had scramble up to find another route, then back down to the platform to go through Utrecht. Eventually got there, but first class was mediocre, the WC miserable, and getting a full suitcase up and down the narrow stairs and through the glass door was crazy! The only amenity was a bit of privacy, but we were travelling mid-days on workdays.

Topping

P2P tickets in Belgium (NMBS, not Thalys) are some of the cheapest in Western Europe, and the Netherlands isn't that much more expensive. What routes are you taking?

Just adding my two cents here, to balance things a little. I recently purchased a pair of one-month Eurail Global Saver passes. I did my research in advance, comparing P2P tickets via the various rail company websites.

My wife and I are traveling for 36 days, 28 of which will be covered by the pass. We expect to use the Eurail passes for 13 days of travel between 14 cities (7 countries).

1st Class P2P tickets at their cheapest prices would have totaled $1544 per person. That is assuming that I could actually buy all the tickets I needed (it's very difficult to purchase for Italy using an American credit card). I would also have to buy tickets through several different rail companies and take possession of said tickets through various means.

By buying my Eurail pass through Eurail.com, I purchased the saver passes for $896 per person. My reservation fees for trains will be approximately $546, so my combined cost for pass plus reservations is $1442. This is an apples to apples comparison.

Yes, I do not have the reservations in hand yet. But, on the other hand, I am currently not restricted to the days I can travel. I can opt for specific trains and get the reservations in advance (with Euraide's assistance) or I can wait until I get to Europe and get them. If I used Euraide, then the cost of buying the pass and getting reservations will be almost exactly equal to buying all the P2P tickets in advance from the various rail company websites. But I don't have to watch the clock now to ensure that I have gotten the best deal (as I would if I were trying to get the advance fare deals that are talked about so much).

My point in writing this is to show an example where one did not lose anything by buying the pass. What I have gained is simplicity (ordered one pass instead of many tickets).

Marshall...that's providing there are still reservations open for rail pass holders when you get there.....
There's no doubt that, in some cases, the rail pass is more effective, especially if taking trains that do not require reservations/supplements, and don't require overnight sleeping accommodations. But I think the point is that most people seem to rush out and purchase a pass before exploring the options, and adding in the extra costs they will pay.

"1st Class P2P tickets at their cheapest prices would have totaled $1544 per person" If you wanted 1st Class, then I guess the pass made sense in your case. But I'm curious, what would the P2P price be for 2nd Class tickets on all of your routes?

At least on DB, NS and NMBS, 1st class seems like a complete waste of money. On NS and NMBS, the only difference is that the seats are a little larger and more comfortable. On DB, from what I could see, 1st class compartments have one less seat per row (with a small table where the seat would be), complementary newspapers and steward service from the cafe car. But that's about it.

Tom, I completely agree with you about 1st vs 2nd class. Rick calls it forced luxury. I would say more forced than luxury. Totally unnecessary! For people who are concerned about not spending too much in Europe, it's the first place they ought to cut.

My first time in Europe, the company paid for all my rail transportation and made most of the reservations, all in 1st class. Second trip, a vacation on my dime, I went for a 2nd class German Rail pass (16 days, $160, great deal). I was absolutely amazed that 2nd class was completely adequate. The next trip, again paid for by the company, I went strictly 2nd class even though they would have paid for 1st class. I couldn't bring myself to waste the extra money.

2nd Class P2P tickets (for the day trains) would have been about $300 cheaper. I'm not including the two night trains because it's my choice to get the Gran Class double berth sleeper, and it's expensive whether I have a pass or buy the tickets in advance P2P.'

Just for the record, the countries that we are traveling by train in are: France, Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, Austria, Switzerland, and Italy.

But in all honesty, I doubt that I would go to the trouble of purchasing all my tickets in advance for 2nd class. If I were going to ride second class the whole time, I'd just get a pass and not make a single reservation, except where it was required. Maybe for a couple of trips (purchased in advance), but not all of them. Just me, I guess.

Since you've asked, here are the P2P prices (incl. advanced purchase) I found (first class first, second class second). I've converted the € price to $ at a rough exchange of $1.25. Many are based on the time of day I would like to depart (there are always cheaper and/or slower options).

1. Brugge/Amsterdam - $49 / $36 (Thalys)
2. Ams/Paris - $99 / $44 (Thalys)
3. Paris/Interlaken Ost - $188 / $115 (TGV/
4. Interlaken Ost/Fussen - $148
5. Fussen/Salzburg - $99
6. Salzburg/Hallstat - $8 / $5 (bus)
7. Hallstatt/Vienna - $104 / $60
8. Vienna/Florence - $199 night train
9. Florence/Roma - $78 / $55 (EsA)
10. Rome/Pisa/Monterosso - $83
11. Monterosso/Venice - $97
12. Venice/Barcelona - $230 (Ellipsos Gran Classe)
13. Barcelona/Madrid - $86

Total $1456 for 1st class.

Note that I had to go back a recheck a couple and found that I was miscalculating my Paris/Interlaken Ost trip (originally I'd mis-priced a TVG ticket to Basel and a separate Swiss ticket from that point - you can get a single ticket from Paris from scnf). This demonstrates the difficulty that a lot of travelers have trying to calculate and buy the P2P tickets correctly from all the different train companies.

And again, if I want these low prices, I would have had to fix the dates and times that I would travel for every trip. With the pass, I've got time to make that decision.

I am not trying to say the pass is superior - just that it's not as evil as it seems a lot of people make it out to be.

Thanks for all the tips, information, and help that you all provide. Priceless!

Well I just bought two Global Savers, two months, from Rick Steve's cause i thought it would be best for two sons travelling; i think they might go more places if they are not concerned with buying tickets; they are frugal like me. We shall see! Available seats may determine their itinerary.

When I set up this thread, it was not to discuss the virtue of rail passes, but to warn people that it is often impossible or expensive to get reservations to use with your railpass. Before purchasing a pass, determine how you are going to get those reservations. Don't jump for a railpass and then come whining on this board that you can't find reservations.

However, as some people have pointed out, rail passes are often not cost effective. You have to do the math yourself, figuring out an itinerary and calculating prices for point-point. And, it helps to know how to find the best point-point prices.

I used a rail pass in 2000. After I came home, I compared the point-point cost of trains I actually took and concluded I had just broken even with a pass. However, I could have saved money with other choices. For my last 7 trips I have compared beforehand, and I have always saved money without a pass.

Last Aug/Sept I traveled around Bavaria, Austria, and into Italy for 15 days. For 9 of those days my travel expenses were so little (<€10/day) that it wouldn't have been worth is to have used a pass. For the other six days, my rail expenses were €141 ($176 at $1.25/€). A six day, German-Austria rail pass costs $318. I saved $142!

It really depends on your itinerary or desire to travel without one :-). Railpasses can be great for some trips. Some folks might also consider a combination of both passes and advance point-to-point tickets for some trips.

I found that it was less expensive to buy an advance overnight second class sleeper ticket with berth reservation from London to Edinburgh directly from Scotrail ($87) (they have a site that allows overseas credit card purchases) than to buy the sleeper reservation at $90 (which you MUST have) (in addition to using two days of a rail pass). That's the kind of trip I would plan in advance, whether I had a pass or not, so it is definitely worth it to buy the point-to-point ticket directly from the train company. Here is their web address, in case anyone else is also planning that trip:

http://www.scotrail.co.uk/buytickets/index.html

They will show you all times, fares, and ticket types between any two cities.

As it turns out, I'm not taking many train trips, but I plan to buy my tickets from the website in advance, since I know when I will be traveling. It's unbelievable how cheap it is. For anyone else traveling in Scotland (and maybe the rest of the UK), you can buy an "advance" ticket (fixed date, time, and train) as late as 6 PM the evening before you travel. Not quite "hop on any train" convenient, but close.

I had thought to buy a railpass, but ended up planning my trip more closely and deciding to do a combination of flying and a few point-to-point tickets. YMMV.

Just for clarification, we have our passes bought and I have also bought some seat reservations, but when it says "Tariff Aboard" is this another charge beyond what we have already paid? We have the 5 country pass.. Thx, Steve

German Rail does not sell tickets online for connections completely outside of Germany. They show the schedule for connections all over Europe, but only show fares for in-Germany connections. "Tariff abroad" just means that that's a connection which they don't sell online because it is outside of Germany. There might (Thalys, Italian Eurostar, TGV) or might not be additional surcharges for passholders on the route.

Bump

My disclaimer before I start is that I didn't have time to read through both pages of posts before adding my own. However, having read through most of the first page, it seems to me that those who have animosity toward the RailPass system are only looking at travel through their own personality and by putting cost above all other considerations.

I'm traveling in Germany and Austria this summer. For the German part of my travel, I will be on my own and I will only be on trains for 3 trips. Given that 5 days is the minimum RailPass term, I saved A LOT of money buying point-to-point tickets. However, the second portion of my trip, I will be with my wife (using a saver pass) and we will be using all six days on the RailPass that we bought. In that case, we do save money - because we are using all six days. That is really where the RailPasses get you. But the other advantage to the Pass is the convenience of not having to be at the train station at specific point in time. Yes I know this is the same way that you do things with airline tickets. But I give myself at least 2 hours of wait time for those too, because I don't want to accidentally miss my flight. With a pass, I don't have to make sure to get to the station at a certain time, and I also don't have to keep up with multiple train tickets for a month long trip. There is something to be said for convenience.

Bottom line - there are a LOT of situations where RailPasses do make sense and do save money. There are a LOT where they don't. We shouldn't paint with too big a brush in either direction.

Cary, saying you are too lazy to read previous post to learn what we are really saying here is pretty pathetic.

If you had, you would have known that I opened this thread by saying that it was not a judgment on rail passes per se, but a warning to know what you are getting. We are constantly getting posts on this site from people who bought rail passes naively believing that the would be the best deal and are now finding that they can't get reservations to use with their rail passes.

ALL I AM SAYING IS TO EXPLORE THE SITUATION, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO FIND RESERVATIONS, BEFORE YOU SPRING FOR AN EXPENSIVE PASS?

But, saying that, I will also say that, in my experience, rail passes are generally not a good deal. Every situation is different, and you have to do the math, add up the cost of the rail pass and all of the reservations and surcharges you need (if you can find them) and compare them with the cost of point-point tickets, including special discount tickets and regional passes.

I have done this for seven trips to Germany in the last 10 years, and never found that a rail pass would be cost effective.

I have added up the cost after the trip and know that a rail pass would not have paid.

Saying that I "have animosity toward the RailPass system are only looking at travel through their own personality" is unfair. I have objectively studied travel in Germany for almost a decade. I defy you to demonstrate that you have a better knowledge of German Rail travel than I do. To conclude that, because my experience does not coincide with yours, that I have an animosity toward the rail pass system, is self serving.