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UK Citizen by Descent Without a UK Passport

Hello All!

Thank You for taking this question.

I am an American Citizen and a UK Citizen by Descent (Parents are from Glasgow). I have been to Scotland many times through my life but never to live only to visit. This time, I am planning to stay and start a life. I have my American Passport but have not applied for a UK Passport yet. I would rather not go through the hassle of applying and waiting for a UK Passport and I am wondering if anyone knows what my options are for proving my UK citizenship without a UK Passport upon arrival in Scotland?

Thank You!

Craig from California/Oregon

Posted by
8889 posts

I suggest you get your British passport BEFORE you make this trip, and enter the UK using this passport.

A passport is the proof you are a citizen. The requirements to get the passport are the same as you would need to prove your citizenship, and once you have got a passport no further proof is needed. You should then be able to get a job without restriction, and you first employer should be able to apply for a "National Insurance Number" in your name.
Without an EU passport, no employer will want know you.

Posted by
60 posts

Much depends on where and when you were born. If you were born before 1983, you can apply (costs ££ to do so), born after is trickier.
There is a detailed application form to fill out here https://www.gov.uk/register-british-citizen/british-nationals you don't just show up at the border and the magic happens.

Right to work is something else again - you may be able to live there and still not be eligible to work legally.

Posted by
5292 posts

Unfortunately Craig you are not a British citizen, your parents may be British but you, presumably, were born in the US, have an American passport and therefore are an American citizen.

I am of Polish and Irish descent but I've never considered myself a citizen of either, nor can I claim to be.

You state that you want to know how to prove your UK citizenship upon arrival in Scotland. You can't because you do not have UK citizenship. Informing immigration officers that your parents are British is irrelevant, it will have no bearing on the decision to grant you entry. Your only option is to enter as a tourist and with all the restrictions that that entails. In order to remain, work, live as a British citizen you will have to apply for citizenship. I have no experience of the process so I cannot offer any advice in that respect.

Posted by
5333 posts

Apply for the UK Passport first. It will in the end be much less rather more hassle to do it this way. You do need to submit your American passport as part of the application process, as well as appropriate birth certificates etc. These days there are a number of times when you need to prove your right to live in the UK (eg to rent property or work).

Posted by
8293 posts

For a definitive answer to your question, call or visit the Visa Section of the nearest British Consulate, or the British Embassy in DC.

Posted by
32905 posts

Marco and Zeeba are right on. I've seen it first hand and that's how it goes. That date in 1983 is really critical. One side of the line is a fairly long somewhat expensive but fairly predictable positive outcome; the other side almost - but not completely - impossible.

It is true that you are not a UK by descent or by other way until the UK government says so and issues you a British passport. The process is laborious and it is true that you do not have your US passport either during the procedure, so timing is critical.

You remain liable for your US taxes on worldwide income for the rest of your life.

Posted by
10234 posts

Where were you born? If in the States, did your parents register your birth with the British Embassy? That could make a difference.
Here's the expat forum: http://www.expatforum.com/

Posted by
5333 posts

British citizenship is extremely complicated because of the number of changes over the years, in some cases to 'pick up' people who fell between the cracks in past legislation as well as to equalise treatment of fathers and mothers etc.

However, presuming the OP really does have citizenship by descent then he doesn't have to actually apply for this status as such as he will be considered already to have it qualified for it automatically by the appropriate circumstances. That is why he can move straight to applying for a passport, with the appropriate documentation to prove it.

Prior registration in such circumstances can be helpful as it is a document that does not expire but is not a requirement - a passport could also have been applied for at birth. It isn't clear whether the OP has never had a British passport at some time.

Posted by
14 posts

I was born in the U.S. in 1987 and I have never had a British Passport. My parents did not register my birth with the UK Goverment either.

Posted by
14 posts

The only reason I thought that I am already a UK Citizen without the need to register is because the UK.GOV website said that it was highly likely after I took their quiz to see if I was a British Citizen...

"You might be a British citizen:

In most cases you’ll be a British citizen ‘by descent’. You don’t need to register or naturalise. You can live in the UK and get a British passport.

You’re a citizen ‘by descent’ if all the following apply:

you were born outside of the UK
one or both of your parents were British citizens at the time of your birth
Your children won’t automatically become British citizens.

When you’re not a British citizen:

You won’t be a British citizen ‘by descent’ through your father if all the following apply:

you were born before 1 July 2006
your parents weren’t married when you were born and haven’t married since
the country your father considered his permanent home when you were born distinguished between children of married and unmarried parents - check with the country
In this case, you might still be able to register as a British citizen."

https://www.gov.uk/check-british-citizen

Posted by
380 posts

Nevertheless, this is a forum for tourists to plan trips to Europe. We're probably not the right people to pose questions about citizenship status and immigration.

Why don't you just look up the British Consulate nearest where you're living and talk with them? They are probably the best source to get you started.

Good luck!

Posted by
14 posts

Just for future reference for others in the same position who may visit this forum:

I called the San Francisco Consulate a few months ago and was directed to the UK.GOV website for general information regarding passports and told to call the Passport Office with more specific questions. I have not done so as it is an overseas phone number and I am on a tight budget.

Thank you everyone for your insight.

Posted by
1814 posts

If you have a computer or smartphone there are inexpensive ways (google voice, skype, etc) to make international phone calls. For basic landlines you can find calling cards in stores like Walmart.

Posted by
5333 posts

As I said above, maybe not clearly enough, registration is not a requirement for those qualifying for citizenship by descent. The only reason for doing so voluntarily is to have a non-expiring bit of paper that documents the qualification, prior to a passport application. The time when that might have been useful is long gone.

You can submit an online passport application from the USA (fairly new service); the only difficulty here presuming you have all the documentation already is if you are called for an interview. You could also apply in the UK on a visit but this takes 6 weeks or more.

Posted by
10234 posts

Marco, Don't you think the key documents to prove descent will be copies of both his parents' birth certificates?
We found those easy to obtain.

Posted by
14 posts

Thank You Marco. You did indeed clarify this in your first post. My apologies I was confused by the last paragraph. And Thank You for confirming my hopes that I can take care of my UK status without too much trouble after arrival in Scotland!

Posted by
14 posts

Bets,
The online application asked for my parents UK Passport Numbers and their places of birth. The only supporting documents they requested that I send in by mail were photocopies of any current Passports of mine and 2 photographs of myself.

Posted by
5333 posts

You need to look through this document.

You are in section 2 of the first page "First British Passport", row 2 - Born or adopted 1 January 1983 to 30 June 2006.

So that is 2 recent photographs, a full colour copy of any other uncancelled passports relating to you (ie every page), Full birth certificate. Then you need to go to table B - easiest is to supply your mother's birth certificate, alternatively your father's and marriage certificate.

Six weeks is the usual processing time for anyone for a first British passport. As I said you can do it whilst in the UK as a visitor, but there is no method of expediting how long it may take (eg no in-person application) and you risk it being rejected if you have filled something out in error. The online application fortunately is less prone to this, but it could even be something as simple as the photos failing. One benefit of being in the UK though is if you are called for interview.

Posted by
3148 posts

I reiterate what others have said, and that is that the UK is extremely expensive to live in; so if you are leery about making long distance calls here, you might have a bit of a shock if you go to live there.
That said, good luck!

Posted by
14 posts

Marco,
Thank You so much. I originally got side tracked from checking this document in the search for the materials needed to simply fill out the online portion of the application. So thank you for bringing it to my attention as it satisfies all of my curiosities as to what I need whether I apply from overseas or in the UK. Do you have any idea what the purpose of the potential interview would be?
Thanks Again

Posted by
14 posts

I plan to WWOOF for the first few months to a year before I look for paid work. If you don't know what WWOOF'ing is you can find out here: http://www.wwoof.org.uk/. There also happens to be a shortage of seasonal agricultural workers in Scotland due to Brexit.

The unemployment rate in Scotland is actually almost the exact same as where I currently live (Oregon), 3.8% vs 3.7%. Furthermore the town where I live, Eugene Oregon, is currently experiencing a housing crisis (not to mention a heat wave) and many employed people who can afford first and last month's rent as well as a security deposit are unable to secure a roof over their head. Might I add that homelessness is ILLEGAL and hardly remediated in the U.S. Not everyone is naive, lazy, and ill-informed. Some are just without other options. Each person carries a different weight on their shoulders with different luck (karma).

I have a savings and qualify for FREE University as a Citizen in Scotland if I so desire to finish my higher education. My skills include being able to bare the worst that this dehumanized and toxic economy has to throw at me understanding that it is my own karma that landed me as a member of this decaying humanoid race who through fornication has been parasitized by a swath of devils, myself included. I hope to one day make a dent in the horrid food system that is plaguing the world. God willing I will also be fortunate enough to one day help our African and Arab brothers and sisters who are suffering the unspeakable.

Regarding overseas phone rates, in true form to my Scottish ancestors, I'm a penny pinchah. My definition of "afford" is much different from the non-Scottish individual.

Lastly, carrying an expressed MC1R Gene and having the delightful fate of being born and raised in the stolen equatorial land that is Southern California, I have learned to heed my skin's pleas for salvation. 30 years of being a fish out of water physiologically and culturally is enough encouragement for me to repatriate!

As for the gingerist delinquents that would seek to slash a red-headed yank such as myself, I say what will be will be.

I LOVE THE RAIN AND THE RIGHT TO ROAM ;) I HOPE TO NEVER SEE THE SUN AGAIN!

Posted by
8889 posts

Do you have any idea what the purpose of the potential interview would be?

johnstanistan, all first time UK passport applications for people over 18 require an interview. This includes applications made in the UK. It has been this way for a few years.
The object is to ascertain that you are who you say you are.
The official government website page on this is here: https://www.gov.uk/apply-first-adult-passport/your-passport-interview

Since anybody can get a copy of a birth certificate, there were cases of visitors applying in the name people born in the UK who had never applied for a passport, and then staying in the UK using that ID. Or people already in the UK doing the same but using the photo of a relative outside the UK, and sending the passports so obtained to the relative so they could enter the UK.

I imagine first time applications outside the UK would have an even more stringent interview to prove you really are who you claim to be and the child of British citizens.

Since most UK citizens have already had passports since they were children, they don't need an interview.
Most UK citizens living outside the UK who have children register their birth with embassy as soon as they are born, and get a passport immediately. It appears your parents neglected to do this.

Posted by
14 posts

Chris F,
Thank You! This actually means that I probably wouldn't be granted a passport prior to border entry even if I did apply through the mail before my flight! I understand it would probably save some time waiting once I'm there though.

Yes my parents did neglect to do this probably because they never wanted to see any of their children return to their place of origin to live LOL.

They hate the rain! Even still, after years of silence, they have expressed that sometimes they wish that they had stayed in Scotland. My mother has never been right emotionally as the guilt of leaving her parents and their eventual passing has haunted her since they left. Let's hope I don't suffer the same fate if I do make it over there LOL.

Posted by
23330 posts

Keeping in mind that WWoofing is work and a work permit is required even if no pay is paid. If you don't obtain a proper work permit then you are just illegal immigrant working under the table.

Posted by
14 posts

The UK Home Office ‘Immigration Rules’ state:

'Volunteering

A visitor may undertake incidental volunteering (i.e. the main purpose of the visit is not to volunteer), provided it lasts no more than 30 days in total and is for a charity that is registered with either the Charity Commission for England and Wales; the Charity Commission for Northern Ireland; or the Office of the Scottish Charity Regulator.'

This text is from:

Immigration Rules Appendix V: visitor rules. Immigration Rules for visitors’
in the section called

VISITORS APPENDIX 3. PERMITTED ACTIVITIES FOR ALL VISITORS (EXCEPT TRANSIT VISITORS)’

WWOOF UK is a charity registered in England and Wales 1126220 and in Scotland SC045524.

Posted by
5292 posts

My skills include being able to bare the worst that this dehumanized and toxic economy has to throw at me understanding that it is my own karma that landed me as a member of this decaying humanoid race who through fornication has been parasitized by a swath of devils, myself included. I hope to one day make a dent in the horrid food system that is plaguing the world. God willing I will also be fortunate enough to one day help our African and Arab brothers and sisters who are suffering the unspeakable.

I'd recommend toning down such rhetoric at any potential interview and down the pub!

Posted by
5333 posts

I have a savings and qualify for FREE University as a Citizen in Scotland if I so desire to finish my higher education

Only after you have lived in Scotland for 3 years.

There are a few things that people qualify for by being 'ordinarily resident', ie no history. An example of this is the NHS. Other things require differing periods to show that you are 'habitually resident', ie have a history. As you have none having never been resident in the UK at any stage in your life, (visiting doesn't count) this will take time to establish.

As to the interview it may be pretty inevitable in your case, although in law not completely obligatory. Having no UK footprint will make it difficult for checks, although having another passport with visitor immigration history is one small support. That is why applying from the USA and coming as a visitor for the interview seems the least inconvenient way (there are some interviews held outside the UK too).

Posted by
14 posts

JC,
You're right, I cannae afford a Glasgow Kiss! Such a statement was only a response to those who would suggest that my intentions were impulsive. I know its a challenge to live there but what was missed is that its more of a challenge to live here! Also, its difficult to research the ins and outs of the bureaucratic hoops that exist, takes experience. That's why I've posted here (I know that this is a tourist forum I just didn't know where else to go, I do now thank you Bets ;D) I've gained so much knowledge from this forum and I am very thankful.

Posted by
14 posts

Marco,
You're amazing. Thank You again! Well college will have to wait then. Probably when I have a better idea of what careers wont become automated. Looks like Inverness has an unemployment rate of 2.1% so I may survive after all. Anyone know what the rainiest areas of Scotland would be? I've heard Dundee and Aberdeen are the sunniest.

Posted by
5292 posts

The western side of Scotland is the wettest, the driest are those on the eastern side. The islands, particularly Shetland, Outer Hebrides and Orkney suffer the worst weather.

Posted by
3391 posts

A friend at work just went through the process to become a UK citizen based on her mother's UK citizenship. She was born here just after 1987. She followed the correct procedures, filled out the paperwork, and made the appointment for her interview. Once there, they didn't believe that her mom was actually her mom - the really do look NOTHING alike! So they made her prove that she was by producing photos documenting her life with her mom from birth all the way up to the present. Anyone can fill out paperwork and submit it - the purpose of the interview is to verify you are who you say you are and make sure that what you have declared is accurate. There is a lot of questioning and repeat questioning to insure you are truthful. After going through all that she finally got here UK passport and citizenship! It took a while and there is bureaucracy involved but the process it fairly straightforward.

Posted by
11613 posts

So you can WWoof for a month, but you plan on doing this for several months to a year - a good way to get a big red "X" on your passport application if you are found out.

Posted by
631 posts

You probably are a Citizen by Descent and would be OK. Except your parents have given you a huge problem. They could have registered you as a child and that would have been simple. But now you have effectively got to prove THEIR status because yours depends upon that. So you will need their birth certificates etc. and that won't be easy if they are in the USA and you are trying to convince people in Scotland. Get this sorted out with a UK Consulate in USA before you travel because it will be a nightmare to do over here.

The 1981 "Nationality Act" was a dreadful piece of law and actually stripped many people of citizenship. The famous (in UK and AUS at least) Spike Milligan had held a UK Passport for decades and during WW2 had been drafted into the British army and almost killed twice. When his passport needed renewing a few years after the Act came into force he sent it off as normal and it was refused. His crime? His parents were born in Ireland when it was part of the UK. They were UK civil servants posted to India when he was born. But their home ceased to be UK in 1922 so their rights were deleted by the Act. So he was classed as being born to Irish parents in India. And India became independent in 1947. So he was Indian of Irish descent according to the Act - and the fact he had almost died for the UK twice carried no weight! Happily for him Ireland gave him a passport without arguing.

As for the US Tax question. It may possible to renounce US citizenship through birth and avoid tax liablity. Ex Mayor of London and now comedic Foreign Minister Boris Johnson did it a while back! https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/boris-Johnson-renounces-us-citizenship-tax-bill-mayor-london/385554/

Posted by
10234 posts

I wouldn't worry about taxes as most of us don't make enough to pay in both countries. In 2016, the exclusion was over $100,00.

It shouldn't be difficult to get copies of the birth certificates, unless there was a fire. We obtained my in-laws' certificates from Europe in only a week, and they were born in the 1920s and lived through WWII in an occupied country.

I agree you should do it sooner, not later. What if Scotland votes to leave Great Britian but stay in the EU? Just get it done and don't give up your first citizenship. You can't have too many.