Two Month Itinerary Questions

This guy would say that you are trying to cover a lot of territory in a short period of time. Some of these cities are mor than a day apart even going on the fastest train. It might be a good idea to get a copy or Frommer's Europe By Rail, or Europe by Eurail, 2012 to get some idea of how large the territory you are proposing to see is. I think you would have to forego sleep to move this fast.

The longest train rides I could find in this itinerary were Lauterbrunnen-Paris and Munich-Venice, both around 8 hours. We would probably reserve a sleeper car in a night train for the Munich-Venice trip. I'm more concerned about being able to see enough of each city in the 2-3.5 days in each. Imagine that, a fellow Idahoan commenting on my post! Thank you for your input!

I'm not a train guy, but I sure don't see anything that's 'more than a day apart'. Some days you're going to not see daylight except on the train. Most travel days are going to be spent traveling - - door to door, even on the shorter legs, you're going to burn most of a day. The result is that you'll have one less day, enssentially, at every stop than you have listed. If you can live with that, go for it. If you need more days somewhere, you can easily rob them out of Brugge. Nice would not have made my list.

I should have been more specific about the days. Example: We will be in Berlin by the evening of the 13th. We would have a full day on the 14th, 15th, and 16th. We would then take the train to Prague (4hr40min) in the afternoon or evening of the 17th. Then, we would arrive and check in to our hotel or hostel that evening. We would have all of the 18th, 19th, and 20th in Prague, then leave that afternoon or evening. It would come out to having more than 3 days in each place, unless I'm missing something crucial. I've never been to Europe, though, so I could be way off. I'm more worried about needing more time or less time in some of these cities. I am just looking for some fine tuning advice, I guess. Suggestions about cutting a day off of some cities and adding a day to others. ALL input is appreciated, though. Also, I made a mistake on Bruges. We would only be spending 2 days there. I'll edit the original post a bit. Thanks!

Matthew, That's a fairly "ambitious" Itinerary but it's certainly feasible. There are a couple of important points to keep in mind. To begin with, as you're travelling in July it will probably be hot and crowded in many of the cities. Pre-booking accommodations would be a really good idea. When travelling with a Railpass, remember these DO NOT include the reservation fees that are compulsory on the "premium" trains such as the TGV in France. You'll need to pay separately for those. Especially in Italy, you DON'T want to be caught without a valid reservation on a train where this is required, as you could be fined on the spot and it won't be cheap! IMO, the time allotted for Berlin, Prague, Vienna / Salzburg (I'd suggest Salzburg), Munich, Lauterbrunnen, Rome and Paris is good. However, I'd drop one day in Venice, Bruges and Amsterdam, in order to provide a bit more time for travel between locations. What are you planning to do & see in Nice? If you want to use it for a "home base" to visit Monaco / Monte Carlo, Villefranche, Eze or other places in the area, you might want to add a day there. If you just want to see a bit of Nice and perhaps visit some of the Museums, then two days should be fine. Most of your travel times will be reasonable, but there are a few exceptions. For example: > Berlin / Prague - 4H:41M > Prague / Salzburg - 6H:33M > Salzburg / Munich - 2H:02M > Munich / Venice - 6H:39M (day train) > Venice / Rome - 3H:43M > Rome / Nice - 8H:35M > Nice / Lauterbrunnen - ~10H:00M with 3/4 changes (Interlaken Ost used as destination) > Interlaken Ost / Paris - 5H:07M > Paris / Bruges - ~2H:45M > Bruges / Amsterdam - ~3H:30M Happy travels!

I'm traveling with my wife, her sister, and my sister. The sisters want to go to Nice, I imagine just to hang out on the beach. If it were up to me, we would spend the entire two months in Germany, Switzerland, and Austria. My wife and I have spent a few summers touring around the US, doing 5-8 hour bus rides at night while we slept in uncomfortable chairs and had a blast. We have been to all of the mainland states doing that, so we are not strangers to that kind of travel. Train rides don't seem like they could be as bad as a bus... I will look at cutting a day off Venice and Amsterdam. I was kind of considering that anyway. Where would you add a day or two, besides Nice?

Also, if anyone has a good suggestion for a good beach to hit in place of Nice that would fit better with this schedule, I would love to hear it! Nice seems so far out of the way for us, but the others in my group really want to go. It seems like they just want to go because they think it has "pretty beaches", though.

Two beach options that might save you a detour into Nice- the North Sea coast of Belgium and the Baltic coast of Germany. Both have lovely, wide sandy beaches and they are usually (although not always) warm enough for bathing in July. They would be an easy side- trip from Brugge or Berlin. Nobody said it yet, so I'll mention it... rail passes rarely save you any money these days. You need to price the individual legs of the trips (considering advanced purchase discounts), and compare the cost to the rail pass you want (plus all the extra fees they tack on). At a minimum, including Belgium and the Netherlands on a rail pass is usually a money loser, as the costs for domestic tickets is usually pretty cheap.

This is all very good input. I will rework some of this schedule. Poland is not high on the priority list with any of us at this point. Right now, I'm thinking maybe the following: Berlin-4 days Prague-3 days Vienna or Salzburg- 4 days Munich- 4 days Venice- 3 days Rome- 4 days Nice- 1 day Lauterbrunnen- 4 days Paris- 4 days Bruges- 1 day
Amsterdam- 3 days This would leave 5 days to put in other cities or add a smaller town or two. Any suggestions for those? I would also love some suggestions for some Mediterranean beaches that would be convenient on this route to possibly replace Nice, because it is so far out of the way. Also, should I eliminate Prague altogether? I feel like I should try to go there, but aside from Nice, it is the city to which I am least committed to visiting on this list. Also also, Vienna, Salzburg, or both with two days each? Lots of questions, I know. Thanks in advance!

Hi Matthew,
First, I like that you have allowed 4 days for your cities and I appreciate how difficult it is to fit everyone's choices into a good itinerary. Your question about burnout because you are moving too fast is valid. I always think big cities need at least one 'extra' day than we think because they are more tiring and take longer to explore than smaller towns. With the exception of Nice, you have all big cities in your itinerary. Since this is a very long trip (with the inclusion of your Northern stops), I would suggest you (somehow-ha ha) take out at least one of the cities and fit in some slow down veg-out time. Now, only you can decide if your group needs to fit in some slower paced stops. But I have taken a couple of 2 month European loop vacations and the first one didn't factor in the benefits of pacing. The second one, last summer with my 15 year old daughter, had a great pace of lazy villages to off set the stimulus overload of the cities. You live in a quiet area- you may need some 'down time' too! I have been to Nice 3 times and think it is a perfect slow-down stop for your group. I can suggest other places if you are interested. Enjoy and have a great trip!

I think 4 days in Prague is one too many. And to spend two days in Brugge is one too many (go to Ghent). Any possiblity of adding in Poland? I loved Krakow.

Two thoughts come to mind: 1. As you are subtracting days from other places (many here have given you good advice), I'd add a day to Rome. In my opinion you should devote at least three full days to that city and I wouldn't count "two halves" as being part of that. My experience in all European travels is that two halves of days rarely equal one whole day of site seeing. 2. Regarding Rail Passes, it is true that they are not the value they once were. However, if you can determine that the majority of your trips are covered AND the expense is equal or not too much more than point-to-point, you might find the ease of a pass to be worth it. You're moving at a quick pace with several people and perhaps avoiding all the stops at ticket windows would add up to some real time saved in the end. Happy travels, from another Matthew.

Thank you for the advice, Matt! I just did some serious number-crunching and found that the price to rent a car in Berlin and return it in Amsterdam for just a little over $2000 including insurance. I plugged the route in to Google Maps and took the average gas price of each country and the gas mileage of the vehicle that would be rented. The total gas cost was about $495 without any side trips. That would cost about $625 per person. Obviously, we would end up spending more on gas for side trips... Do you guys think it would be worth it to rent a car? I have no problem with driving long distances, I generally drive 5-8 hours a day for my job. The idea of driving through the Swiss Alps is exciting, as well. The convenience factor of not needing to worry about travel days on a pass, train reservations, or making the train on time make me think this would be the way to go. Are there serious inconvenience factors, such as parking or theft that I'm forgetting?

How old are the two sisters? Can they split off to Nice while you go travel direct to Lauterbrunnen from Rome and then you meet up in Paris? This has worked for me in the past, when trying to fit different priorities. Otherwise, I would not give Nice only one day, even though it is not on your wish list. It is a fun and pretty area and Eze is a nice day trip to explore. Two nights minimum. As to crossing Prague off the list, we had to do that ourselves last summer. It was too far out of the way. But if you drop Prague, then Vienna becomes 'out of the way' to a certain extent. As to choosing between Vienna and Salzburg, everyone will have a favorite. We were going to skip Vienna because we don't really know anything about Mozart, but we were traveling from Budapest to Melk and we wanted to see Shoenbrunn Palace near Vienna so we stayed 2 nights and enjoyed the city. It is easy to navigate. If you like the things the Salzburg area has to offer more than Vienna, then you can't go wrong with that choice either. This is a list of the 'quiet' villages/small cities we stayed at to gather our energy for the big cities: Melk, Austria: between Vienna and Salzburg. You can tour Melk Abbey and get some bikes from your hotel to ride along the Danube to Durnstein Castle. St. Goar, Germany: outside of Frankfurt on the Rhine river. Again lots of castles only on the Rhine and very low stress. Cinque Terre, Italy: nothing to do here except a little hike. If it is hot enough, you can swim in the sea or sun bathe. Perfect for relaxing. Florence, Italy: not small like the others, but you don't list it and it is really very easy to enjoy. Everything is very central. Nice and Eze: again, easy and a nice change of pace and scenery. Arles, France: sleepy little town in Provence from which you can take day trips into Avignon and other towns. A good contrast to Paris.

Matthew, Actually, the fact that that you're not too enthusiastic about Nice will probably improve your Itinerary. If your group is looking for beach time, the beach in Nice is somewhat on the "rocky" side, so not the most comfortable. One idea you might consider would be to substitute the Cinque Terre for Nice. If you stay in Monterosso, there's a really nice sandy beach. A portion of the beach is on a "pay per use" basis, with lounge chairs and umbrellas, while other parts are free. There are smaller swimming locations in some of the other villages. The Cinque Terre is a good "intermediate point" between Rome and Lauterbrunnen. There's a direct train from Roma Termini to La Spezia Centrale with a travel time of ~3H:30M. The trip from Monterosso to Interlaken Ost is as short as 6H:52M (with 4 changes). Regarding a stop in Prague, I'd suggest leaving it on the list if at all possible. One stop in eastern Europe would be nice. If your budget allows, your group might enjoy a Segway tour of Prague. They're a lot of fun! Cheers!

Matthew - about the car rental. For the driver, 5-6 hours a day isn't bad, but for the passengers, it can get pretty cramped unless the car is large. Also the view from the back seat tends to be much more limited than in the front. I'm also thinking about how much luggage you'll have to pack in. With a large car, you are quite likely to have parking issues.

Yeah, I'm not going by car any more. Railpass all the way. I've managed to eliminate Nice and add Cingue Terre. My schedule should look like this so far: Berlin- 4 days Prague- 3 days Vienna- 3 days Salzburg- 2 days Munich- 4 days Venice- 3 days Rome- 4 days Cinque Terre- 2 days Berner Oberland- 4 days Paris- 4 days Bruges- 2 days Cologne- 2 days
Amsterdam- 3 days I added Cologne and Cinque Terre, eliminated Nice, and shaved a day off of some of the other cities that people have said take only a few days to see.

I want to go with you. I loved your first itinerary too. Don't short change Bruges. I recently spent 5 nights there, for our second trip to Belgium, and still never got bored. I am glad you up'ed your days there back to 2.

I like Cologne, but I think I would cut a day down there and add it to Berlin. There is so much to see this city that I bet you will wish you had more time there. Or cut a day off of Munich and use the extra time to travel along the Rhine. If you were planning on visiting a Concentration Camp while in Germany, then you could go to Sachsehnhausen near Berlin rather than Dachau. It has many of the original buildings as the camp was used by the communists after the war. Sadly, Rick barely mentions it in his guide book, only touching on it due to the fact that many of the tour companies in Berlin offer tours there, but it is really worth visiting.

Matthew, Regarding the suggestion from Jo, if you want to visit at least one Concentration Camp, either Dachau or Sachsenhausen would be good. Which one to choose will likely depend on your other touring plans in Munich and Berlin. If you decide to visit Sachsenhausen, I'd highly recommend taking a day tour with Original Berlin Walks. I did that tour in September and found it to be very interesting and moving. The Guide was outstanding! One point to note is that it's a bit of a walk from the rail station in Orienenburg to the Camp, but it's all level and not difficult at all.

I am thinking about eliminating Cologne altogether. I wanted to go there to see the cathedral, but I feel like I will see so many cathedrals and too few castles in this itinerary. What do you think about spending those two days in Cochem to see the Reichsburg Cochem and Burg Eltz?