trip timeline

All of your train scheduling questions can be answered with a little work at bahn.de. Second, this site works little better when you have specific questions. The space allowed for responses is limited. We cannot serve as a travel planner for you. Most of Europe is well serviced by trains - just a matter of the number of connections.

This is too much for 26 days because these destinations are not next door to each other. Also I think that while you can have a really athletic run of sightseeing WITHIN a 26-day trip (2 nights, 2 nights, 1 night, 2 nights), it's not sustainable or satisfying for the whole 26 days. So plan to vary the pace a bit. You and your family need to set some priorities. I suggest ing ONE alpine destination and ONE riviera, and figuring out a plan where your only two rural stops are not back to back (don't go from alps to riviera, in other words). If it were me, I'd just split the time between France and Italy, maybe with a stop in Gimmelwald. You really don't have time for much else.

You have listed fourteen places for a 26 day trip, without considering travel time between places. I would start by looking at a map and determining how far things are from each other. Once you have it plotted on a map, you can see which things might be out of the way from everything else. You will also want to think about how long you wish to stay in each place. Two days for Paris? Three? What about Rome? Germany, Netherlands, and Belgium are whole countries. What cities were you hoping to see there? When you start looking at train schedules, you will probably see that certain things just aren't going to fit, and will need to be eliminated in order to have any actual, off the train, sightseeing time. You are going to end up trimming your original list by a lot just to allow for travel time. And don't forget the time it takes to pack, wait for the train, orient yourself in the next place and find lodging, unpack, eat. etc.

Thank you Nancy - I do think you are right - I think I am mostly unsure of everything I have listed before Rome. I am wondering if you have traveled this area by train and know if the route is connected by fairly major trains. And approximately what the time frame is say from Paris to Colmar to Gimmelwald to Chamonix To Nice by train. And if you have an opionion on the minimum time I need for this. I appreciate your comments very much. :)

Sorry, I haven't traveled by train there recently enough to do you any good. But there are lots of knowledgable people here who will, no doubt, chime in. In recent years, I have had a rental car, or been traveling with European friends in their car.

Just wondering why you want to go from Colmar to Gimmelwald then back to Chamonix? Apart from being an awkward route, two Alpine destinations back to back doesn't make much sense on a very tight trip. I would pick one Alpine area (any area, not just considering the few that Mr. Steves highlights) that makes the most sense with the overall flow of your trip and stay there for at least three nights.

Alisa, Take a look at Rick Steves' tour "Best of Europe in 21 Days". Look at the trip map. It covers most of your locations you mentioned, and gives you a real taste of many different places. It begins in Amsterdam and ends in Paris, so you could spend a day or two before the tour in Amsterdam, and a couple of days after the tour in Paris. http://tours.ricksteves.com/tours/best-europe/europe-21-days This is one way to cover a lot of ground; to go on a RS tour, where transportation is already lined up, and you can move quickly from one location to another. Otherwise, as Adam said, it's too much for one trip.

This is one of the multiple copies of the same question, with answers spread about among them. That can be quite confusing for the people trying to help...

Thank you everyone for your reply. After working on the schedule I have cut my list down and come up with: Paris(2), Colmar(2), Gimmelwald(3), Cinque Terre(1), Rome(3), Florence(1), Venice(2), Rothenburg(1), Tirol/Bavaria(2), Rhine(2), Amsterdam(2), Brussels(2) to London(2). = 21 day Railpass. Hope you all agree the days in the places are sufficient. And I hope the train routes work. I'm wondering about making the correct train reservations. Any input appreciated. Thanks

Alisa, I'd suggest spending time with Deutsche Bahn website to get transit times. They don't seem to be reflected in your day count. Assume that even a relatively short train trip (eg, I seem to remember that Paris to Colmar is less than 3 hours) will occupy more than a half day: You need to check out, find the station and right track, travel, and find your new hotel and check in). For longer trips, assume most of your day will be shot. That eliminates most or all of your sightseeing time for your 1-night stays. I'd suggest dropping the 1-night stops, plus adding a little more time to major cities, such as Paris. Colmar is wonderful; 1 full day would allow a quick visit, although it would also be nice to have enough time for a stop off for the Strasbourg cathedral. My preference would be to cut destinations by at least one-half, but only you know whether you'll enjoy a hit-and-run trip.
And if you look at the agenda for a packaged RS tour, please keep in mind that all logistics are planned; it will take you a lot longer to do it on your own: time waiting for taxis, trains, etc; time spent looking for your hotel and various tourist sites and so on.

Even with your new agenda you will be on trains as much as you will be sightseeing. Remember that 2 nights in a location is equal to one full day. You have mostly 2 nighters, with even less time in a few places. I'm exhausted just thinking about constantly checking in and out of wherever you are staying, going to and from train stations, etc. Have you and your daughter already been to every place you are planning to visit?

Hi - Thanks for responding - My daughter and I have been to Paris, Cinque Terre, Rome, Florence, Venice and Munich. We know they are biggies but want to show my son a few of the sights in these places. I was just trying to fit in a couple of night trains and possibly cutting out Cinque Terre. I would love to see the Mediterranean but I know the Alps will be spectacular. We definitely do not want to travel too much -but want to find some back door experiences if possible. I'm mostly diving into this now to get the plane tickets locked down. Thinking of flying in and out of London as we can stay up to 26 days. Thank you so much for helping.

Also for your planning considerations- consider the Alps as a big speed bump, for transportation purposes. Even taking express trains and driving on the highways, it takes far longer to traverse within and through the mountains than the straight-line distances on a map would suggest. Also, traveling from one peripheral destination to another (for example, Colmar to Gimmelwald to Cinque Terre) chews up far more transit time than traveling between major cities. You generally have to change from a high-speed intercity train to a much slower regional train or bus. It often can involve a fair amount of back-tracking as well. Finally... if you're really looking for a "back door" experience... every destination, museum, restaurant, monument, city walk, hotel, pension, gasthaus, hike, and cycling route mentioned by Mr. Steves has been heavily visited, and at times even over-run by his many loyal North American fans. Because it looks like your wish-list relies primarily on his recommendations, if you really want to get away from the herds and the infrastructure that caters to them, you need to supplement your research with some additional sources.

I have done whirlwind trips before, but even for me this is a bit too much, especially without a car. It takes a lot less time to hop in the car and go to a new destination than it does to get to the train, wait for the train,etc. Plus, with the car that is where a lot of the 'backdoor destinations' come in, when you just get off the freeway at a little known town and hang out. I also suggest that cutting it down, if you stay with the train would be a good idea. The other thing I might mention is that while it is really fun to take someone to places you have already been with your daughter, it can also be a bit like trying to revisit a previous trip. I think it might be more fun to see mostly all new destinations and have all new experiences with both your kids. There is nothing like that first time.

Thank you. I am starting to really agree with all of your advice. Being the planner that I am I forget that the time spent in the place is the best - the novelty of the train gets old. I fight against wanting my son to see the biggies like my daughter and I did. But you are right the new experience for all of us will bond us together. I think some more research is needed on my part and working with my kids to see what we really want to experience. I appreciate your advice.

Alisa, Just to help you get a start. Here is more or less what my family did last year (23 days); I used an Aug 2012 calendar here for you for frame of reference: This is NOT telling you what to do; but to give you a frame work for writing out locations; travel times; etc. Aug 4: Fly to Rome Aug 5: Arrive mid morning Rome; explore Rome PM. Aug 6: Rome Aug 7: Pick up rental car AM. Drive to Isernia area (4-5 hours with stops); stops along the way. Arrive in agritourismo for dinner. Aug 8, 9: Isernia area. Aug 10: Drive to Assisi AM (3-4 hours with stops); pm explore Assisi. Aug 11: Assisi. Aug 12: Drive to Venice AM (5 hours); drop off car; explore Venice PM. Aug 13, 14: Venice. Night train to Munich. Aug 15: Arrive Munich AM. Explore Munich. Aug 16, 17: Munich Aug 18: Pick up rental car. Drive to Rothenburg. Arrive afternoon; explore. Aug 19: Rothburg Aug 20: Drive to Strasburg, France. Arrive early afternoon. Overnight in Strasburg. Aug 21: Drive to Larochette, Luxembourg; stops on the way. Aug 22: Explore Larochette area. Aug 23: AM drive to Paris; drop of car. Explore Paris PM. Aug 24, 25: Paris.
Aug 26: Fly home.

Hi Thanks so much. Your plan does help me see that I can step off of RS's plans. I will look at your itinerary as ideas of other places to go and see your time frame. I have decided to put London, Paris, and Rome in the plan and then research other possible back door locations to stay a while in. Having about a month to spend I'm hoping I can do all the places justice and enjoy our experience. Thank you again.

No. Your son will beat the both of you with a day-old baguette ;-) First of all, definitely fly open jaws (aka 'multi-city'), such as into London and out of Rome. It should cost exactly 1/2 of what a round trip to London and Rome would cost. Europe is waay too large to backtrack across it simply to make an airplane connection. Time is money. Secondly, in your 7/15 posting, some of your city connections aren't realistically possible (Gimmelwald>CT? 10-15+ hours and a zillion bus/train changes) and others are literally eating dinner only once you get there (Venice>Rothenburg odT for one night=11-16 hours and 3-5 changes). I don't think that's what you have in mind for your son ;-) (cont.)

(cont.) How invested is your son in this trip? Is he doing any research of his own? Let me tell ya, the absolutely worst thing is to kill yourself planning a trip for others, take them to this really cool 'whatever thingy place,' only to hear them say 10 minutes later 'I'm ready to go now'...(Are.You.Freakin.Kidding.Me??? I spent 2 weeks working this out!!! And you're 'Ready To Go'???) Is your daughter invested in this trip? You may not need/want a railpass; that depends on your final itinerary. Don't try to force a vacation into a 21-day mold. There are some great group train tickets in Germany, cheap train tickets in Italy and France IF you purchase in advance (usually 3 months in advance), many railpass supplement fees are more expensive than simply buying a regular ticket, etc. So definitely read "Europe Through the Back Door", watch the RS travel videos with (preferably) or without your kids (click on "Rick on TV" at the blue tabs at the top of the page), and check the Helpline regularly for tricks and tidbits to help you plan your trip. Check other travel sites if you have time. Alisa, a big thanks for taking all of our suggestions with such grace; many don't :-( We'll be waiting for your further posts!

If you really want back door experiences, I'd strongly suggest looking at guidebooks that are more comprehensive than RS. Some of the driving tour books touch on interesting small towns along the routes. The Blue Guides are quite comprehensive for art/architecture/history in even relatively small towns. I haven't used the Green Guides for years; they used to be fairly comprehensive. Another approach is to read non-travel books about the areas and see what interests you about the areas. And many places that are by no means back door are still lovely: from your list, Assisi, Colmar, Venice, etc.

Hi, Even with 26 days, I would suggest that you have too much on the itinerary. Either drop Holland and Belgium or some of the places in Italy. To get to eastern France from Paris, take the Paris-Strasbourg TGV, where you can change to Colmar. Do you plan getting into Venice from Munich? The night connection will save you a day. Are you flying back from London? That takes two extra days, the last night in London before taking the EuroStar, and a night in Paris, unless you intend on pushing it from northern Italy or Munich all in one day to Paris and catching the EuroStar that very night. I would not recommend that.

"I would like to find a way for them to take on researching what they are interested in. It is hard without experience." Easy! - (1) click on the blue tab at the top of this page: "Rick on TV" to see all of his European travel programs. They're like travel porn for a lot of us ;-) That'll get your travel juices flowing! (2) Guidebooks: For general travel skills info - "ETBD". That's a must for a European traveler, in my opinion. Also, individual country guidebooks. You can buy them, or get them from the library. A $12 investment will save you waaay more money and time! The RS books are great, and are heavy on the nuts-and-bolts of travel - as in, not merely lists of hotels, restaurants, and sights. He spells it out for the reader clearly and concisely - what you need to know. (3) If they are interested in a particular subject - 11th-century cathedrals, craft beers, impressionist paintings/artists, sculpture, mystery novels set in European locales, street graffiti, hiking, rollerblading, photography - it's there. They can do their own online research for places where they can imbibe, partake, gawk, and experience their hobby in a new environment. From what I've seen - anything under $1000 is looking great :-( As Vanessa stated above, click the 'multi-city'/'multiple destinations' button (next to 'one-way'/round-trip'). Then, search for LAX-London on May 5, and FCO (Rome)-LAX on June 1, for example. I couldn't replicate your search, because every airline I tried (including using Travelocity) wouldn't allow me to book beyond early June...BUT compared to this year, and for booking in June/July, again anything under $1000 isn't bad. Unfortunately.

Hello - I am very pleased with the help on this helpline - I have noticed that some of you have spoken of flying openjaw. I would like to investigate this. Do you have advice on how to find the lowest fares doing this. Whenever I check the price seems so much more than flying in and out of LAX to London - $973. But we don't want to burn out and spend all our time on the train. I think also I will write out the countries, places and things to do in each and see where my son and daughter are mostly interested in. I do not think renting a car is for us. I absolutely loved Cinque Terre. I would like to find different places like that. My daughter would like to spend time in french villages I believe, and my son loves art but will get burned out quick in too many museums. I would like to find a way for them to take on researching what they are interested in. It is hard without experience. I thank you all for your thoughts and help. Your involvement is truely very nice.

One strategy I use in trying to figure out where I want to go and how much time I have is this - Print out a calendar that covers the time you have for your trip. Get those post-it tabs that you can move around. Make sure they are big enough to write each destination on it. Use the tabs to write out each destination. Example: If you think you might spend 4 nights in Paris, write Paris on 4 tabs. Get out a map that covers the entire area you want to cover. Individual maps don't work as well because the distance between places is less apparent. Look at the logical path to travel that avoids backtracking. Take your labeled tabs and start playing around with the calendar until you find the trip that works the best. Be prepared to lessen time in a location, or even eliminate an entire location, to make your trip work. It is impossible to see it all. Consider travel time between locations. You say you don't want to drive, so places like Italian Hill towns may be more difficult for you. Fly into your first destination and home from your last. Check multi-city flights (open jaw). I like to actually book my flight directly from the airline. If you fly round trip to London you might pay less, but then you have the expense and the extra time to get to and from the other places you want to go. Not worth it in my opinion. Enjoy the planning of the trip and get the kids involved so you can all be invested in where you go and what you see. Be prepared to sacrifice things/places to make your trip more pleasurable for all.

Andrea makes some good points. From what you say, you are the one doing the planning - its your son and daughter's trip too and they must be involved in the planning. Don't shortchange your son just because you and your daughter have been to places before. I'd suggest you buy a large laminated map of Europe and erasable marker pens and begin drawing in your various itineraries. You can wipe clean as your plans change. Everyone should be reading guidebooks to get an idea of what they want to see and producing their own itineraries. Forget northern Europe (Belgum, Germany ,Netherlands, Britain) - think about visiting Provence - you say your son is interested in art but not Museums - so take him to the area where Van Gogh did much of his painting. In Paris visit Monet's home. He will see scenes he will recognize from the paintings....... You could fly into Paris, spend some days there and head to Provence and then to the coast and along to the CT. From CT head to Florence and or Siena - base yourself there for a 4 or 5 days and visit hill towns (which ones - Orvieto, Assisi for sure) on day trips then over to Venice and finally down to Rome for flight home. Assume that you will all be returning to Europe at some point and allow yourself time to enjoy it - to take a day off every so often and relax on a beach, or at a small cafe with a coffee or a glass of wine without worry about missing a train or not visiting yet another museum. Avoid the "If its Tuesday it must be Belgium" syndrome. You say you want a ETBD experience - relaxing and enjoying the moment is one way to get that experience!

Alisa;
You asked about how to research "open jaw" flights. You'll have to selct "multi-city" in order to do your research. You'll be able to one city to fly into and then a different city to fly out off. I don't know of any way to find the lowest fares except to run multiple searches with a combination of different cities. Have a great trip!

For open-jaw flights - If you are flying in and out of LAX, you will probably end up with a US carrier if you want non-stop flights. If you are willing to include one-stop flights, you will also be able to include some European carriers. Start with the multiple destinations option at a couple of general travel websites, like expedia or travelocity. That will give you the airlines that fly the routes you are considering. For instance, if you plan to fly LAX-London and Rome-LAX, you might find a better deal with British Air, flying back from Rome with a plane change in LHR. Then go to each airline's website - often you get as good or better pricing or more flexibility directly from the airline. Multiple short-term destinations - How much luggage are you going to take? Are you going light - just carry-ons? Then you are probably going to be washing out clothes almost every evening and with one or two night stays, are your things gong to dry in time to pack them? If you are taking a lot of clothing, you are going to need to allow time for a laundromat stop every week or so. That's easily a couple of hours. And you will have a lot of weight to lug around from town to town. And the more stuff you have with you, the longer it takes to unpack and repack. You wrote - "It is my daughter and my second trip like this so just need minimum days in places for my son to see a few highlights" - is it really worth the price of the train and a hotel for 3 persons to show your son a few highlights? Wouldn't that time be better spent with the 3 of you enjoying new places? He's 19 - he has a lifetime ahead of him to see the places you've already seen.

Alisa,
It looks like you got a lot of good advice here. Just remember, take the time to write it out. Figure out how much time you will want in each place; research travel times in between. Literally lay it out on the kitchen table, figure in "down time" as well. Do more 2-3 nights in a single location rather than a series of one-nighters in a variety of locations. That's a good way to get run down. And then you won't find it that enjoyable. One of the best times we had was spending an entire day at the beach on Korcula Island, Croatia. Just swimming and laying out--very relaxing. Another time, we had torrential rains in Salzburg, so we spent the afternoon watching soccer in the local pub and chatting with the locals. Those are the things you remember.

Thank you - the posts that speak of slowing down to enjoy the moment are the ones that choke me up because I know that is where the memories are made. I am very detail oriented so that part will be easy for me. Making decisions on best places is what overwhelms me. But I'm sure I'm making it harder. It can be in the simple times. Comments on where to go really help me. So thank you. Your advice is very good. We are starting to lean toward into Rome and out of Paris and to find all new places in between. :) And just to give you a story - my daughter and I were pick pocketed at Versaille - our claim ticket for our backpacks. - 2nd day into 21 days! We cried and laughed. And made the train to Florence two hours later with only our moneybelts and camera. That story connected us to each other, other people and adventures throughout the trip. Wouldn't trade the memories. :)