Trip Planning Nightmare

It doesn't sound like you really want a post-golf trip, so just be honest and perhaps negotiate with your wife to do this "other" trip as a stand-alone (at another time) and in a way that makes sense. Sometimes you just have to say "no" to a loved one when an itinerary just doesn't make sense or sound appealing. I don't think even 100% accommodation from you would make for a good trip if the underlying fundamentals don't make sense. I personally wouldn't even try to piece together a 2-week trip with all these various places (some of which aren't even cities, but a mix of countries/cities). Alternatively, if this trip needs to happen, then enlist your wife in helping to plan it so you're not shouldering all the stress. Once she sees the nuts and bolts herself, she may realize that her list is too disparate. Good luck to you, I know this can be tricky.

"couple of weeks" - is that 2 or is it more?

Well, it's her idea. Ask her to specify what days you will spend in what city. Get it down to

Day 1: Edinburgh - tour castle, tour countryside
Day 2:
Day 3: Paris - x, y
Day 4: Paris - Z, A

I think clarity of the trip and specificity of objective might be a good approach. Sometimes people say "I want to go to Germany" or something. Well, it's a big country, with lots of places to go. What is she interested in specifically?

The word you need to focus on here is "prioritize."

You said she has a list of places, including (but apparently not limited to) "several more days in the UK, Paris, Switzerland, Germany and Austria". The answer to your dilemma is actually pretty easy (although how you execute the plan may require diplomatic and other skills). Still, the process ain't complicated...it will be a lot easier to sell her on the results if you can get her to participate.

1. Get her list. Have her sit with you and go over her list. Get it in writing (literally).
2. Have her stack-rank the places in priority - which is the most important to her, which is the least. Get 'em numbered.
3. Agree on how many days you have to use. Get a specific number. Have a calendar handy, but don't start writing in places on it.
4. Get out a map of Europe, preferably one you can draw on (download and print one from the internet).
5. Using your prioritized list, mark a dot or other symbol on each of her locations. Make the dots larger/smaller depending on priority - the biggest dot for priority #1, smallest dot for lowest priority. It doesn't need to look pretty, just be understandable at a glance.
6. Put a number next to each dot for how many nights you plan to stay there.
7. Then, figure out what is a reasonable itinerary, connecting the dots in some rational, mostly-linear fashion. You will need to work through this, weighing priority versus ability to connect the dots. Some connections might be by rail, others by flights.

Do this process together with your wife there as an active participant. It should soon become evident to both of you if your plan is realistic or hellish. Most likely, it will quickly become obvious that you can't do it all (not enough time, too many stops). Drop off the lowest priority locations or add more days.

Repeat the steps above until you have something that you think might be OK. Then do some research into how long it really takes to get from Point A to Point B, and how much time that would leave you in each place to actually enjoy being there. Then go through the process again.

Good luck.

David's step-by-step plan should be added to Rick's website. He hits the high points that I often make, but in a clearer and more systematic manner. Good job, David. The only thing that needs to be added is the time to travel between the dot locations, but possibly that is the second round, once the main decisions have been made.

David’s detailed methodical plan is excellent! We need a Like button on this forum.

OP referred to this as a "trip planning nightmare" but it certainly doesn't have to be one. I actually enjoy this process (I know, some people hate it).

To me it's an interesting and enjoyable exercise in planning. You can actually make it into a game or puzzle of sorts, if you enjoy that kind of thing. I find myself doing it occasionally even for trips that I have no immediate intention of taking. For example, if I'm just musing about what future trips I might want to take if I had X number of days. Get out a map (I love maps, and have lots of them handy), go through the exercise...lets say I had X days and wanted to do a trip to Iberia, or Scandinavia, or Japan, or Mexico... It's more enjoyable with a good map and a good glass of wine.

My idea of fun. Yeah, I know, not exactly everyone's idea of a rockin' good time. Vive la difference.

David's steps are methodical and very well-laid out, but still crafted as if for a solo traveler. I don't see anywhere in those steps where the OP's own preferences (or "list") are considered, and where the couples' consensus between the "two lists" takes place.

Where does the OP himself want to go after the nine-day golfing trip? Does his wish list overlap with the wife's list, and where does it differ?

Adding my 2 cents to the already stellar responses... i’d make Switzerland, Germany and Austria a stand-alone trip. For your 2 wk post golf trip, i’d focus your 2 wks on the UK and Paris - flying home from Paris.

@Agnes - oh, I never meant to suggest that there wasn't more to it. I left out some details because (reaching consensus, negotiating different preferences, knowing where you actually want to go and why, getting accurate info about how to get from one place to another, other details) makes some people tune out and TLDR it.

I assume most folks would either have those things figured out at the start, or would do that as they went through the process. It's also an iterative process to some degree - go through it for a rough, first pass, then do reality checks on details, come back and make adjustments as needed. But for me, it's a useful framework to start from...other stuff becomes implementation details. For sure, everyone needs to provide their input and be part of the process to ensure their own needs are being met - which is why I suggest having She To Whom All Things Must Be Justified as an active participant (also makes it much easier to sell the results that way when she was part of the process).

FWIW, OP sounded like he had essentially thrown up his hands and was just trying to keep the wife happy ("The only reason I'm going back is to play golf.") Keeping everyone happy (to the extent that's possible) is a wise strategy.

As a golfer myself, I ask, what are you going to do with your clubs during this post 2 week trip?

Jim,

Regarding the list that your wife provided, how many cities does she want to visit in each of the five countries on the list? From a straight "numbers" perspective, getting to five countries in 14 days allows for ~2.8 days in each country, with no allowances for travel time between them. It would be prudent to point out the reality of that situation to your wife, and point out that you'll be spending an inordinate length of time on planes and trains, and won't really have much time to see anything in those five countries. The aspect of travel time, checking in & out of hotels, getting to and from airports & stations shouldn't be underestimated. That sounds like a recipe for exhaustion and a not-so-pleasant holiday. The most logical solution would be to either pare the list down or increase the time allotment.

Although you hadn't planned on another holiday after your buddy golf trip, you could consider the trip with your wife as a separate holiday, kind of a "two-in-one" trip where you only have to pay for one air fare. To me this seems similar to being on a tour and then embarking on a separate post-tour trip. There's a "period of adjustment" between the two experiences, but it all works out. Of course in this scenario, open-jaw flights would be the best idea.

UPDATED WITH AN EDIT:

You (meaning the two of you) might be able to find a river cruise that would hit some of the highlights of what she might like to enjoy. Check Tauck's web site, as it seems I recall an itinerary that included Germany, Austria and Switzerland. The visit to York could be front-end or after the river journey. And, I agree, might be best for you to travel to York and meet her there, unless there is more you two might want to see/do in and around Edinburgh.

Logistics alone may help to focus on do-able locations....or add a week, if time/budget allows.

Edit: Jim, I just looked on Tauck's web site, and I do not see a river cruise that takes in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. I do see one that takes in Germany, Switzerland, and the Netherlands, though. Maybe other river cruise providers may have an itinerary (longer) that takes in more of your wife's desired countries. I mention a river cruise only because very little planning would be needed re: transportation,overnights, touring, etc. Easy/relaxing..

The reason it's a "trip planning nightmare" is her unrealistic plan to see 5 countries in 2 weeks. David's planning guide is awesome.

Since Jim has already had a 9 day trip to do what he wants-golf-it seems only fair to me that his wife have most of the say-so for the post-golf part of the trip. If total trip is 23 days (9+ 14) and 2 days are travel days, 1/2 of 21 days is 10.5 days each and 8 of his are golfing.

Hey cala, I'm not married. But his wife is joining him after the golf portion of the trip. So wouldn't her "say so" be for just the remaining days when they're both traveling?

Or perhaps I'm a poor judge of how the rules work. Well, that's probably true, regardless.

CWSocial, yes that's how the rules work. Someone posting earlier said planning for the post-golf trip also needed to include the husband's choices-I think he gets 2.5 days maximum of the two weeks they're traveling together.

Wow, cala - I never realized the math could work that way! I always figured I'd just get 50% of the "traveling together time" say-so. Silly me.

My take on this is the planner gets to choose ... an incentive for one's partner to do some of the heavy lifting. (Spoiler alert -- it doesn't work.) Or maybe the chooser has to work out all the hotel, train, plane reservations. (Also doesn't work ... but to be fair, he DOES carry the bags up and down stairs.)

Most important, do the wife trip before golf. That way you will be over jet lag before trying to play golf.

Maggie has a good idea-- a river cruise. These typically come in 7-8, 10, & 15 day itineraries. We have done river cruises with 5-6 different operators, but never Tauk, which I think is greatly over priced. Our specialist river cruise travel agent who has never steered us wrong, says Scenic is the best.

Basic advantages of river cruise: 1] your room travels with you-- no packing-unpacking; 2] all inclusive-- room, sight seeing, wine with meals, some tips; 3] high quality food. Once you pick a cruise, all you have to do is plan your limited "free time". Add up what's included, & prices are more than decent and .

What's the best itinerary? If you must go to greatly over rated Paris, Paris- Luxemburg-- Prague. For nearly 500 years, Prague was the #2 city of the Austrian Empire, so a visit to Prague is a visit to Austria (Mozart conducted the premier of Cossi fan Tutti in Prague and the theatre is presenting operas). Spend any extra days in Prague, one of the world's top tourist destinations (unlike Paris and any city in Switzerland).

Re: the "rules": There are a lot of things written in invisible ink on any marriage contract that do not appear until years later. For example, I will dispose of a dead mouse, but my husband has to deal with both half of a mouse and a half-dead mouse.

We've never been on a cruise, but it does sound like it has some of the same advantages that we enjoy by staying any place for at least a week. Packing and unpacking repeatedly sucks and so does having your trip eaten up by dealing with frequent and lengthy transportation of any kind.

I plan with a method similar to David's, with a slight deviation. I use Rick's Europe planning map and those little sticky post it flags. I place a flag on each potential location, then look how logical the routing would be. I always end up removing some flags if I'm being overly ambitious. Then I label each flag with a destination. On a blank calendar I start with the arrival date and city, then figure out how many nights in each location, placing a flag on each locations arrival day. Inevitably I end up eliminating/changing things until I have the final plan. I like the post it flags because they are easy to move around instead of permanently marking up a map or calendar.

“Greatly over-rated Paris”... “Prague, one of the world's top tourist destinations (unlike Paris and any city in Switzerland).”

Millions would disagree with that.
Paris is the #1 tourist destination... for good reason.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Tourism_rankings#Most_visited_destinations_by_international_tourist_arrivals

Prague isn’t even in the top 10. Everyone is different and it’s ok not to like Paris. One less tourist in my way there is a good thing!

It would help to have more information from Jim, and his thoughts on the suggestions so far.

For example, what does she actually want to see in Germany, Austria, and Switzerland? One town or city in each country? If the point is simply to set foot in each of the three countries, you could have a fairly compact trip visiting Munich, Salzburg, and Luzern. These could be combined with Paris ( where you meet). Perhaps include Strasbourg or Colmar on your way from Paris to Switzerland.

But maybe she is picturing Berlin, Zermatt ( not a good choice in May!) and Vienna. These are spread far apart and would be more difficult to include.

And how important is it to stop in York to see your friends? That adds a layer of complexity and additional cost.

Maybe start by pricing the flights---open jaw into Edinburgh and home from Munich, versus RT Paris or open-jaw into Paris and out from Munich. And do think about those golf clubs.

My thanks to all of you who responded to my post. Really great ideas, and in particular I share several others thoughts about David's comments and especially his organization. We really should have a way to add this kind of info to the site. I sat down with my wife today and ask what specifically did she want to see/do in those countries. As I expected she had none. From watching Rick's programs she had developed an interest in going to them sometime and since I'm in Scotland why not then. I think we have narrowed it down to meeting in either Amsterdam or Vienna (flying into one and out of the other) and traveling between the two by train and car, and possibly to consider a Danube river cruise in the middle. Among the places to go are Salzburg, Hallstatt, Melk. Cologne, Munich, and Rothenberg, to name a few. This is phase one of our discussions, but since I need to make my reservations for Edinburgh I want to do a multi-city itinerary with my carrier, United. Tomorrow we're going to read through all of your responses together and than should help her focus on details a little more. As someone suggested, I've had my nine day trip and the rest should be her. I don't totally agree because I should enjoy phase 2 as much as she does...but most will be her wishes. Thank you all.

Jim
Ji

Susan wrote: “Greatly over-rated Paris”... “Prague, one of the world's top tourist destinations (unlike Paris and any city in Switzerland).”
Millions would disagree with that.
Paris is the #1 tourist destination... for good reason."

Following the largest herd of Lemmings over the cliff is not necessarily a good idea. Don't be victimized by the problem of celebrity sights, "celebrity" being defined as being well known for being well known. How do you persuade a first time visitor to EU, don't go to Paris, go to Prague (or Vienna, Rome, London, or Barcelona)? And if you go to London, don't waste your time going to the Changing of the Guard, possibly the biggest waste of time in Christendom.

I base my advice on having spent over 600 days as an EU tourist (over nearly 50 years). Been to Paris, several times. It is a cold, sterile, unappealing city filled with fine museums, but I don't think much of going to EU to spend time trudging through museums. You want to see a museum? They are all over America. You want to see the Abby Church at Melk, the world's greatest work of art? Got to go to Melk. Paris used to have good food. Now it has Pizza Hut.

We have given Paris more than a fair chance-- 21 days, regretting every one except 4 days at the Versailles Palace.

At least 500 of the 600+ days we have spent traveling in Europe were by car. Also 6-8 river cruises. I suggest this for Amsterdam to Vienna. Rhine river cruise from Amsterdam. If you can't find a cruise that ends at Strasbourg or Breisach (sp?), get off there and don't go to boring Basel. Rent a car. Spend 2-3 nights in Alsace. Train to Salzburg (2 nights is enough) Rent a car. Drive through the Salzkammergut The Michelin Guide to driving in Austria recommends 5 days excluding Salzburg. That's a rushed trip. Drive to Linz. Skip Linz, see Wilhering, Mathausen, St Florian. On to Maria Taferl ( a must see before Melk), Melk, Krems, Wachau to Vienna. 

I haven't logged as many European travel miles as kb1942, but I agree with him on Paris - so far it's the least favorite place of mine in Europe. Love France - but Paris - not so much.