Train advice for family of 6 traveling through Europe for 6 weeks. HELP PLEASE!!!

I recommend you start a spreadsheet. List out each location, number of nights, and then you can add a column for the train ticket price between each place. Add the lot up and see if a pass would be cheaper.

First, read the "Man in seat 61" website: www.seat61.com This is the ultimate website for how to do trains.
Look up the price for each trip on the website of each national railway company (Italy = www.trenitalia.com Austria = www.oebb.at etc.)

Try to get your kids involved in this will help. Group travel on a train can be fun. Bring food to eat, drinks, and try not to annoy everybody else (low volume) and you will have a great time. The older kids can take responsibility for some things (counting everybody on and off the train, keeping track of where the train is, going to fetch coffees and drinks for everybody). The young ones can nap. And enjoy.

I have tried to keep this posting short, so not too much details, just encouragement. Just ask when you want to know more.

P.S. Milan is the one place in your list I would skip, others may disagree. You do not want it too high brow cultural, just in your face "wow" places.

Rome2Rio is not your go to website for prices. Best to go to the official train company websites. Remember that train prices are unlike airline prices. For some countries, such as Switzerland, the prices don't change. You can buy the tickets now or on the day of travel and you'll pay the same amount. For other countries, the seats go on sale 90-120days in advance and once the cheap seats are gone, they're gone. If you buy your train tickets early for these countries, you can save a backload of money. Tickets are already on sale for the Basel-Paris route (www.capitainetrain.com or sncf-voyages.com (for the latter use Antartica as your country to avoid being pushed to Rail Europe website). They're also on sale for your Italy trains (www. trenitalia.com). Use these websites to find the prices of your tickets.

Eurail passes are rarely recommended. They aren't valid in the UK as I understand it. Furtehr, the French and Italian trains require reservations. These reservations are included if you buy tickets but if you don't, you have to purchase a reservation which is often more costly that a ticket. Further, many trains in France have limits on the number of passes that can be used at a time. That means that one a certain number of Eurail passes have been used, you can't use it. You have to either buy a ticket or choose a different train. In Switzerland, a swiss pass may be useful depending on where you plan to travel. You'd need to run the numbers. It would give you a discount on mountain transportation whereas the Eurail may not.

You may want to reconsider the number of countries you're stopping in. It seems to be about 3days per country and that doesn't take the actual transportation into account. You lose at least a half day for each move. Certainly seems like a lot of changing hotels and train stations.

HTH

Just a quick word about the rome2rio website. It's a great tool to find the distance between two places and the various options for traveling between two places, but DO NOT use their train ticket cost to calculate your 'real' costs. After checking on rome2rio go to the actual websites for the trains you plan to take, then input your dates (if you have them) or try a dummy date if you're not sure of your dates. You'll find that the tickets will be much cheaper there, especially if purchased ahead of time. The rome2rio website lists prices for 1st class tickets purchased at the last minute (the highest possible cost for the tickets) and you're most likely going to be buying 2nd class tickets either months, weeks, or days in advance and thus at lower cost.

Definitely go to the seat61.com website and do some research there also. Take Chris' advice and plot a spreadsheet to get a more accurate approximation of your true train costs before springing for a pass that won't cover everyplace you want to go and will likely involve add'l costs for reservations on certain trains. It's possible that some combination of pass and/or point2point tickets will work best for you.

Thank you so much Nancy and Chris! I will create the spreadsheet tonight and price out the point to point tickets to get a more accurate price. I may have more questions for you two once I have completed it. Thank you again for your time and encouragement.

You have listed 10 planned train travel days above, and the Eurail Global Flexipass for 10 days of travel within 2 months is the closest match to that at roughly $625 for yourself, the same price for one older child, $588 for a younger child, and up to two kids aged 4 - 11 will travel free (but still pay for any required seat reservations). Younger kids traveling for free and older kids getting a 1st-class discount are both new features this year.

The 1st-class passes are cheaper than full-fare 2nd class tickets. Point-to-point tickets do offer discounts for booking ahead, and some free or discounted kid travel, but may not be the most convenient choice for this many trips.

Most daytime trains in Germany, Czech Rep, Austria, and Switzerland do not require reservations. The trains on your route that require seat reservations are those to/from/within Italy and from Switzerland to Paris. Rail passes work fine in Italy, as long as you pay $15 per person for a seat reservation on faster trains; book at any time before the departure of the train. Venice to Rome is good value day to use the rail pass (vs. full fare of about $110 2nd class); Rome to Florence is a lesser value (vs. about $55 full fare 2nd class), but 10 days is the minimum selection on the pass.

The more important seat reservation is for a TGV train direct from Switzerland (such as departing Basel), which costs $40 per person in 2nd class or $80 in first. You can get a cheaper, $11 seat reservation by making one additional connection and catching a TGV at Strasbourg, instead. Another option is to buy a separate, advance-discount TGV ticket from Basel to Paris (reserved 3-4 months in advance for best price), but if you use your pass for the train from Lauterbrunnen to Basel, that would not save a rail pass travel day.

If you have not used all 10 days of the pass, you could use one for a same-day roundtrip from Paris to Bayeux. However, I would not save one if you're not sure of the plan. A same-day roundtrip is also rushed; you'd want to leave early and meet up with a local tour in Normandy.

Laura's prices for the 10-day global pass add up to $1838 but she included only four children, not five. According to the Railpass section on this website, the price for a 10-day global pass for this family (1 adult, 3 youths, and two children who are free) is $2470. To this you must add the compulsory reservation fees for France and Italy. I am not sure what those are but close to $15? And must be applied to each seat, including the two children who travel for free. So each time they must pay the reservation fee it will cost $90. Looks like there are five such days, so an extra $450 ( approximately).

There are generous discounts for families traveling with children on p2p tickets. In Italy, for example, the "bambini gratis" offer allows free travel for children under 15 traveling with at least one adult. So four of the kids would go for free, and there is no extra cost for the seat reservation---it is included. This offer must be booked in advance and is limited in number, but worth looking into. If the offer is not available on your travel day, maybe you could still get super economy tickets for €19 each. That is still way cheaper than using a "travel day" on the pass ( which averages around $55 a day if the reservation fee is included).

I am not familiar with trains in Austria or France but I'll bet similar discounts are available. Europe is generally pretty kind to families with children when it comes to travel pricing.

Yes you do sacrifice some convenience and you have to study up and act at the right time to get the discounts. But before plunking down $2470 for a pass and budgeting the extra $400-450 for mandatory fees, I would look into the actual price of p2p tickets using the favorable discounts.

Cross-border trains ( Salzburg to Venice, Milan into Switzerland! and Switzerland to Paris often have a discount price for advance purchase as well. For example, one time when we went to Europe we saved 124 CHF per person on tickets from Zurich to Milan and back (a month later) by buying in advance on SBB.ch. For our family of four that was a savings of 496 CHF, at that time around $500. Just for doing a little homework and spending 5 minutes on the computer at the right time, two times.

Also, trains in Germany and Austria have discounts for group travel (2 or more together) on point-to-point purchases made in advance.

Summer is rapidly approaching. Do you have air and lodging reservations ? If you read on this forum you may find others asking about lodging availability for larger family groups -- not as easy to do on-the-fly as finding space for one or two.

What a wonderful plan! (And you're a braver woman than I am.)

You may want to resequence your Italy phase: I think Venice, Florence, Rome, Milan will involve less time on the train than the sequence outlined above.

Also, you have a lot of stops, but only you know your children's travel skills/patience. Within Italy, you might want to drop Florence (which I love, but doesn't offer a lot for kids unless they particularly enjoy art or architecture) and Milan (which I also really like). If art/architecture aren't of particular interest, I think Florence and Milan won't offer them anything unique... they'll have opportunities to experience medieval and Renaissance streets and wonderful cathedrals at other stops.

Wow, you guys are the best! All of your information has been so helpful. I love the seat61 website and I have started getting a more accurate price estimate using the sights you suggested. Are the family discounts automatically applied on the websites? I have only price checked a few routes, but it is looking like p2p tickets might be the best route for me to take. The information about seat reservations in Italy and France was enlightening.

Yes, I did book our lodging starting back in November knowing it would be difficult finding lodging for 6 within my budget of $200 a night. I booked everything on Airbnb and was able to stay under budget, with the exception of Switzerland. We are going to camp there for two nights in a Eurocamp because everything else was too expensive. Thought I would mix it up a bit for the kids so they can experience different types of lodging etc. and have the opportunity to meet European families also on vacation.

I was so intimidated by all of the train information and logistics that I was paralyzed in the decision making process. I was getting stressed out knowing the cheaper tickets go on sale 90 days out, so I am very grateful for everyone's help. I might have more questions after my night of research, so hopefully it won't bug you all if I have a few more questions in the morning. THANK YOU!

I'm not sure if its been mentioned, tickets from Basel to Paris and those in Italy are already on sale. If you know your dates you might want to get those asap (especially the Basel to Paris leg as that's probably your most expensive).

Here is the latest. I am discovering I have too many kids because most of the train sights will only allow me to input 5 passengers :) Given the great info you have all given me, I decided my Basel to Paris tickets should be my number one purchasing priority. I found them the cheapest on the sight Joanne recommended, Capitaintrain.com for 309 Euros, but it only allows me to input 5 passengers. Do any of you know a way around this? Additionally, does anyone have any thoughts or input regarding the Swiss family card? I am nervous about getting from the Lauterbrunnen Valley to Basel and making all of the connections, so I am opting for an afternoon train.

The p2p tickets are ending up cheaper than the passes. Not as much flexibility, but I am a planner and I think it will be better for the kids to have a schedule and know what to expect. Luckily, I got blessed with really great kids. They are great travelers with good manners. Originally, I was not planning on going to Milan, but then I found out the EXPO is being held there this year I thought that might be a neat experience. Do you think it is worth it? I already booked our apartment in Florence for three nights, so if you feel like it might be a bit boring for my kids are there any side trips you would recommend? Perhaps, Pisa?

Thank you again for everyone's help, I appreciate it so much. I wish I had swallowed my pride sooner and asked for help months ago.

girl+5,

You've received lots of good advice so far, and I have a few thoughts to add.....

To begin with, compliments on doing this trip on your own with five kids. I'm not sure I'd be able to do that. One thought that occurs to me is that as you'll be travelling as a single parent, you may have to pack along a notarized letter that indicates you have permission to take the kids out of the country.

As this is your first trip to Europe, I'd highly recommend reading Europe Through The Back Door prior to your trip, as that has a lot of great information on "how" to travel in Europe. Use the country guidebooks to plan sightseeing, in-city transportation, etc. Many museums, etc. are closed one day a week, and it's important to know when those days are. Also, there are "short cuts" one can take to minimize queues (ie: the Paris Museum Pass) and for summer travel you'll need to know that. It would be a good idea for many in your group to consider wearing Money Belts. Losing a Passport during your trip will not be a pleasant holiday experience!

When you format the spreadsheet for train costs, be sure to include the costs for pre-purchased trains in Italy, which can be very cheap if purchased up to 120 days in advance. However (and this is important), the fast trains in Italy have compulsory reservations and these are specific to train, date and departure time, and can only be used on the one train listed on the ticket. If you board the wrong train, you'll face hefty fines of about €50 PP which will be collected on the spot! The same fines apply to those travelling on Regionale trains (which don't have compulsory reservations), Buses or Metro with unvalidated tickets. It's important to know the rules when using public transit in Italy! I'm not as familiar with the trains in Germany and the other countries, but there do seem to be Saver Fares offered for pre-purchase. You'll have to crunch the numbers and try to figure out which method will work best in your situation. A combination of Rail pass and P-P may be best?

When you arrive in Hallstatt, you'll have to take Stefanie across the lake to the town. The fare is only ~€2 PP, so not a huge expense. You'll have changes at Attnang-Pucheim on the trips to and from Hallstatt.

It appears that you've already booked accommodations, so this is just a suggestion for future reference. Given that you'll be travelling only by public transit, I would have suggested choosing accommodations within easy walking distance to rail stations. With a group of that size, you could have also looked at staying in Hostels, as they're very cost effective. Your group would be perfect for a six-person Dorm room in a Hostel (many these days include an ensuite). That would also provide some company for your older kids to chat with. HI Hostels are well managed and clean, and good for families, but there are also some good independent Hostels. For example, one that I use in Rome has six-bed Dorm rooms (with WC) for €30 per night, per person. I don't know how that compares with the places you've found, but that's a good rate for a bed in Rome! It's close to Termini station so very convenient for getting around, lots of restaurants in the area and there's a Laundromat just around the corner.

Maybe I missed it, but one thing that's not clear from your post is how you're getting from the U.K. to Berlin? Most of your rail journeys are fairly straight forward. One other thing to keep in mind is that most cities have more than one rail station (ie: Paris has about six), so it's important to know which station you'll be using when you buy tickets, and that's also something to keep in mind when choosing accommodations.

I'd also suggest skipping Milan. I've never attended the Expo there, but you may find that there's not much there to interest your kids. It's likely going to be dreadfully crowded, and not a pleasant place to visit with five kids.

Thanks Ken for the information and thoughtful ideas. If I have sole physical custody of my kids how important do you think a notarized letter would be? Their father isn't involved much and they live with me 100% of the time. I agree I need to read the book you suggested. I got two money belts one for me and my older son to wear. Pickpockets are a big concern of mine, especially since I will be traveling alone. I have also scanned copies of our passports, reservations and other important documents into my google drive in case anything is stolen. I'll cross my fingers that with a healthy dose of common sense and some luck we won't have anything stolen. When booking our apartments, location to train station was my number one criteria after cleanliness! Most of our apartments are a 5 or 10 minute walk from the train station. However, it is good to note that there are several train stations in each city so I can make sure I have it all mapped out before I start purchasing my rail tickets. My children thank you in advance for not having to walk extraordinary amounts with their packs on!

We are taking a cheap flight from Scotland to Berlin. When I priced out the trains and the time involved a flight seemed like the best solution. Ken, I do have some questions regarding the Paris Museum pass. I see that children get into a lot of museums for free. I am wondering if I purchase a museum pass for me and my older children can the younger children skip the lines with us? I am also interested to learn more about Hallstatt. That is actually the only night I have yet to book accommodations for. My friend went there last summer and LOVED it and said that there are a fair amount of pensions in town that I could probably find a room for the night. I am a little nervous about this because, I don't want my kids to suffer for my lack of preparation. What are your thoughts? Do you think I could find six beds at the same place? Finally, I am little freaked out now about buying advanced tickets in Italy. My fear is what if we misunderstand something and accidentally jump on the wrong train? I would probably tell my kids to jump to avoid paying the 50 euro charge per person :) However, I don't really see any way around it because if with a pass it looks like I have to reserve seats, right?

I love all of the advice and input. If anyone else has any other ideas or thoughts please let me know. Thanks

Good day trips from Florence would be Pisa (for the obvious reason), and Lucca (intact city wall for walking or biking). These can be done on a day single trip. Assisi is also possible by train, but it would be a long day. It's a wonderfully preserved medieval town that they might enjoy exploring. Right outside of Florence, they may enjoy exploring Fiesole.

Edit: when I was in Florence with a preteen, he particularly liked the P Davanzati, a late medieval merchant's house. I also enjoyed it. He was most fascinated by the bathrooms on upper floors. He also enjoyed the science Museum, which I skipped.

And of the major art museums, he most enjoyed the Bargello. It's an interesting fortress type of building, and it's the collection of statuary. It's a wonderful museum that's never crowded. He particularly commented on some of the portrait busts, animal carvings, and Donatello's effeminate David.

Hi,

Your six week trip with the kids is comparable to taking a school group to Europe. When I travel in Europe for 6 weeks, I definitely use a rail Pass but do not advise that with your itinerary. You don't need that, not enough zig zag traveling for one reason. There are other reasons for getting a Pass or not aside from financial savings, depends upon you which is more important. You have a group with you and have to make sure they keep track of their "stuff"

In Germany, Austria, CR on the day trains you don't need reservations and the regional trains don't accept reservations. You just board, sit in a seat that has over it," nicht reserviert, " or " bahn.de " or place tags that don't apply to you, or nothing

On days with morning departures the kids have to, if not hurry, certainly not dilly-dally.. You have to be on that platform 10-15 mins prior arrival of the train so that you know where to position yourself to board the exact coach if you have reserved seats. In Germany you look at the "Wagenstandanzeiger" (in Austria they use "Wagenreihung"), in France "composition des trains" to see how the coaches line up and pull into the station.

girl+5,

Regarding the legal issues of one parent traveling with children, we might have a few Lawyers on the forum and they may be able to provide more information. You might have a look at the DHS website which has a short section covering that and as I recall the U.S. State Dept. website also has info. Some countries may require the permission note to be notarized.

I'm pleased that your children won't have to walk a long distance from the station to your hotels, as they'll be doing a lot of other walking anyway. That could be tiring for the younger members of the group, so be sure to plan frequent "rest breaks". In Italy you can time those to coincide with the nearest Gelato shops!!

Which cheap flight are you using from Scotland to Berlin? Have you worked out how you'll get to and from the airports in each case? With budget airlines, be sure that you're clear on the luggage rules.

Regarding the Paris Museum Pass, THEIR website states that "Most museums and monuments are free for the under 18s and EU residents under 26s. They are usually closed on Monday or Tuesday, 1st January and 1st May." A few points to note are.....

• The Museum Pass only eliminates the queue to buy tickets. There may still be queues to enter each site.
• The Museum Pass does not cover the Eiffel Tower. You can pre-book a time online to visit that. The elevator to the top is extra cost.
• When entering the date on the Museum Pass, BE SURE to use the European format (DD/MM/YYYY as I recall).
• The "meter" starts running as soon as a Museum Pass is activated, so plan your touring carefully to get maximum benefit from it.

Hopefully some of the others on the Forum will be able to add a few comments.

About Hallstatt - if you're only planning to spend one night there, you'll have to plan your touring very efficiently. You'll probably arrive early-to-mid afternoon and will just have that afternoon to look around. You'll be leaving the next day so that won't allow much time. The main site to see there is the Salt Mine tour. You'll take a Funicular up the mountain and then a short hike to the Mine. One of the most fun parts is sliding down the banisters inside the mine (they clock the speed and I doubt you'll be faster than the guide). If you have time after the tour, stop at Rudolfsturm which is the Castle which used to house the soldiers guarding the mine. Have a "cool one" and enjoy the magnificent views for a few minutes. You could always leave Hallstatt in the afternoon, allowing some time in the morning to look around. I'm sure your hotel would store your luggage for a few hours after you check-out.

I'm not sure how easy it will be to find a room in Hallstatt for a group of six in the middle of summer. Getting something booked soon would be a good idea. Check the guidebook or Trip Advisor for suggestions.

You can easily buy tickets in Italy when you arrive there. Tickets for the fast trains will come with the same requirements for compulsory reservations, and buying shortly before travel means you'll likely pay "Base Fare", which is the highest price tier. One of the things you'll need to be clear on is the aspect of changing trains. Changes often involve going from one platform down to a tunnel (sottopassagio) and then up to the platform where your next train is departing from. There are electronic boards on each platform that show the details as well as large paper Partenze (departure) and Arrivi (arrivals) charts. The electronic boards are a better source. You may find it helpful to have a look at THIS website and also THIS video.

I'll send you my usual "boilerplate" on public transit in Italy via a PM.

You asked about a Swiss Family Card. This would be an excellent value for your family. It allows your children age 15 and under to travel for free with you IF you purchase some type of Swiss Travel System pass for yourself. Since you are only traveling to and from Lauterbrunnen, a Transfer Ticket might be a good choice. However, if you have plans to take the high mountain railway, such as the Jungfrau trip, the Half Fare Card is a better choice as it will discount your ticket by 50% on this expensive trip---and the kids under 16 are still free.

You request the free Family Card when you buy your chosen Swiss pass. When you arrive in Switzerland, you see the station agent to validate your pass and fill out the Family Card with each eligible child's name and passport number---they will need to be present with you.

Note that the Family Card is only valid for free travel with a parent who has a Swiss Travel System pass, not a ticket. There has been some confusion over this as the Swiss Travel System (STS) website says the family's card is valid with any STS product and sometimes uses the word "ticket" in English. This does not mean a regular p2p ticket sold by SBB, the Swiss rail website. The Swiss Travel System is a separate website for visitors to Switzerland and it only sells passes, not p2p tickets. So even if you see the word "ticket" on the STS website, it means one of the passes they sell.

Now about traveling with your children as a single parent. You should carry either a note from the father giving permission, or a copy of the court decree awarding you custody. Here is the advice page from DHS:

http://www.dhs.gov/how-do-i/travel-overseas

You may never be asked to show it (I never was when I traveled to Canada with my children) but you should carry it just in case.

Dear Special Mom,

One thing puzzles me. Since I was helping navigate on our family road trips at about 16 (granted only in the United States), I was wondering why yours couldn't do it? Unless of course he can't read maps at all or they confuse him. Or maybe he doesn't want to be that sort of help to you. Or thinks he doesn't which could amount to the same thing. Or course, it helps if the navigator knows exactly where we are going. I once didn't know that (with friends not family) and my name was somewhat muddy for a while.

Of course there is the possibility that since there will be no help with the driving you are smart to not drive in the first place.

I do know from experience that if kids help with the planning that usually helps with the enthusiasm for the trip. Even if all that is said is I want to see/do (whatever interests them at the moment).

I hope you all enjoy your trip.

Hello girlonthego+5. This is not an answer to the question that you asked, but an issue that I suggest you think about is : your trip at Europe may be more enjoyable for you and your five children if you will travel to less destinations. You said you intend to travel in trains, long distances, a total of ten days (after you leave Great Britain, and before you will be at France). The younger children might not like being on a seat in a train, for a long time, in each of ten days. And for most people, I think many days of travelling in trains causes a person to suffer from fatigue. If you are willing to go to less destinations, I suggest : eliminate Berlin and Prague and Vienna from the itinerary. I suggest : fly from Scotland to Munich. And ride in a train from Munich to Salzburg (2 hours). And I think children are not likely to enjoy being in the big cities Berlin and Prague and Vienna.

Thank you Lola for the information regarding the Swiss Family Card and the legal documents. I have requested the notarized letter, better to be safe than sorry. Sharon, my kids are super helpful and would be willing to navigate, but I guess I worry more about me and the stress involved especially with so many large cities on our itinerary. Each time we vacation somewhere my kids each have a job assigned to them for the trip, photographer, accountant, navigator, translator, activities director, culinary chief, etc. My kids are pretty amazing and really take responsibility for what they are in charge of. I imagine with this trip, we will switch up the jobs several times. Additionally, they are each in charge of two cities. They have and are doing research to become the city expert for our family. In those cities the assigned child will be the chief and they are in charge of setting the itinerary for the day. I reserve veto power one time a day, after all I am footing the bill :) I have been blessed with kids who know how to work hard, so I am lucky.

Ron, yes fewer destinations would probably make for a more relaxing trip. You are a smart man!!! We started planning this trip about two years ago and at the time I allowed each child to pick two destinations (should have thought about that before I did it)! Last summer we toured the East Coast for 3.5 weeks and when we returned home I thought 6 weeks is too long and we have too many destinations! We had a family meeting and I presented a new idea, but I was out voted 5-1! No one was willing to give up one of their destinations. Berlin wouldn't be on my itinerary but my 12 year old is fascinated by the Berlin Wall and is intrigued but the Velvet Revolution which occurred in Prague. All my children play the piano and four play string instruments, so Vienna was a must. How do I discourage that? One kid loves soccer, three are huge art history lovers, one has dreamed of Paris since she was a tiny girl, etc. It sounds crazy as I am writing this that I allowed my kids to convince to move around Europe every three days (with the exception of 11 days in GB and 8 for Paris) but that is exactly what I did. I probably should change my tag name to crazygirl+5. I guess I feel like my kids have certain aspects of their lives for which they have no control. I try to allow them control over the parts that I can. Yes, it will be hectic! I am under no false illusions about the level of exhaustion I will feel. I vacillate between feeling completely overwhelmed by the idea and task that lays before me and completely excited by the adventure. For me the idea of 6 weeks alone with my kids without the distraction of friends, electronics, sports practice, music lessons, volunteer jobs, paying jobs, and school is priceless. I figure I only get one chance to be their mom and so I am going to do it the best I can while they are still living at home! Plus we always make the best memories when we are all together.

After our trip last summer, where we went full throttle every day from 7 a.m. until 10 p.m., I have learned to change my expectations. My motto now is low expectation, high satisfaction. My goal is not to see everything in every city or have my children be able to recite European history facts about every city we visit. I hope to give them a view into a world that is different from their own. I hope they can learn things from the people we meet and the places we visit and realize that the world is a pretty amazing playground. I feel like if each kid can say at the end of each day that they made a happy memory, they helped someone else out and they brushed their teeth than I will consider our trip a success! (But we both know I will probably be secretly crying some nights that I didn't pull the plug on a few cities :) Thanks again everyone for all of your thoughts and ideas, it has been so helpful!

You have very eloquently stated your reasons for picking your itinerary and all I can say is wow! what a good and thoughtful mom. I was a single mom to two boys and we had such a great time together traveling in those years ( for us it was camping and road trips in the US; Europe came later when they were in college and as adults). Five would be a bit more of a challenge, but it sounds like you all take care of each other. I don't see anything wrong with moving along every three days---especially since you do not plan to "see it all" in each place you visit. One memorable experience, be it as small as a nice conversation with a local, or as big as a learning explosion from visiting one museum, is a worthy goal.

Once my boys were grown, I remarried and had the opportunity to raise two girls as stepmom -- not as bad as it sounds. Now with more free time and money, we took them to Europe several times, usually with a "3 nights here and move on" itinerary. Of course I had another adult along to help, but I don't think that makes much difference in the success of the trip. It sounds to me like you have done the research, have included the kids in the planning, and in every way have done well. You are going to have a great time, one you and they will never forget.

It sounds like a wonderful trip and traveling with kids (and teens) who understand the work involved is really helpful. I have done of the same types of travel with my grandkids, and while it can be a whirlwind... it will make lasting impressions and memories of a lifetime. Just one thought... but you probably already have them do this, but just in case... I have made journals for the grandkids and I make them fill it out each night. It is a trip log with a lot of fill in the ,blank stuff... favorite meal, amazing sites, surprises, hotel info, etc. With a two week trip kids forget what they did, let alone 6 weeks. You are going to have an amazing, life changing experience with your children. When they are old, they can slow down and visit their favorite cities for a longer period of time, but for now let them experience all they can.

girl+5,

You've got a great attitude and it sounds like your kids do as well. All trips have a few bumps from time-to-time, but with your attitude and enthusiasm I imagine you'll sail right over them. I was a single dad to three boys, and I would have loved an opportunity to take a trip with them like the one you're planning.

Dear Special Mom,

I knew that was a good name for you!

Just a thought. If you tell your kids that the first complaint will mean that each will have to forgo one of their places and then stick to it. You are the adult. Which means you have veto power. This could be one time to use it.

A statement like that will either forestall the complaints or cause them all to look at what they really want. I agree that if they are all musicians Vienna is probably a must. And possibly Salzburg. But they need to be reminded that Europe is not going anywhere. What they want to see will still be there in a few years.

Terry Kathryn that is a brilliant idea to do a fill in the blank journal. I had purchased journals for each of my kids for this trip, yet I was struggling for a meaningful way for them to capture their thoughts and feelings. I like the idea of the fill in the blank, especially for my younger two who get tired writing a lot. It also ensures they write about specific things from each day. Sharon, I like your idea for complaint control, should work beautifully :)

After pricing out all of the trains and fairs, etc. The global rail pass ends up being about $100 more not including seat reservations than p2p tickets. So I guess now I need to decide if the added convenience and insurance that I could catch another train if I miss mine is worth the extra $450. Any thoughts on that?

Thank you again for all of the kind words, research, advice and encouragement. Wish I could bring you all along with me for our little adventure.

That's $450 (US Dollars?) before all the charges for reservations?

Girl+5, don't forget the mandatory seat reservations for trains in Italy and France. In France specifically their trains put a cap on the number of passes that can be used on any given train so even if the train is half empty, you may not be able to get the train you wish. Also, at times reservations cost more than the price of a ticket purchased early. You won't get on the wrong train. Look at the platform board (like arrivals and departures at airports) for the correct platform for you train. Go there and again you'll see the desitintation for your train on the electronic board near the platform. If in doubt, ask someone before you board. I travelled a lot with my three kids on my own in Switzerland. Once you get there you'll find out its easier than you expected.

We've used the Paris Museum pass often. We've never purchased it for the kids. They skip the line with us. Only exception is Arc de Triomphe where you skip the line, side step into the office and tell them you need passes for kids. They'll just hand them to you and you use them (free) along with your museum pass to enter the Arc.

If you wish to go up the Eiffel Tower, you may want to book in advance. We always have, on the day the reservations open, so you skip the lines there. If tix are sold out online, you can line up on the day of or you can book a behind the scenes tour which includes access to the second floor.

Your children will travel free in Swtizerland with a family card. Its free if you purchase a pass. You can also buy it for $30 as an annual fee if you don't have a pass. I'm not sure if that price is per child but it would still be less expensive than paying for tix for each child if you're doing any travelling at all in the country.

One more idea... if all the kids have cameras make sure they each take images that could be added to a slideshow/book when you return. One of the older kids could put it together using the website www.blurb.com... you can do a hard or soft cover book, and once you purchase one you can make it an e-book and download it to your devices...nice memory. Also there are lots of slideshow programs out there. A nice keepsake for everyone to have.

I haven't read the whole post, but some points:

It's usually cheaper for a family to rent a car and drive then buy all those train tickets. However, a car trip is a different trip involving staying on the fringes of cities or visiting the many worthwhile rural attractions, rather than city center to city center like a train trip. One-way fees to pick up a car in one country then drop in another country can be huge though (over $1000 to take a car out of Italy, for example) so you would have to start and end at the same place, and free credit card car collision insurance is not valid in Italy. There will be tolls in some countries, and although gas is much more you aren't really buying that many tankfuls. The other huge savings on using a car is the continuity: the peace off mind knowing where all the children are and not having to chase down forgotten jackets/backpacks/shopping bags/water bottles etc at EVERY rail station waiting room, train compartment, taxi, etc. A car trip is definitely a valid European experience as well.

You are actually late to buying rail tickets, since they are cheaper when buying early. You will have to check out each national rail website for the terms of discounts, and the terms of the children. The Austrian train system allows all children under 14 to travel free with an adult, in Italy it varies by train, children 14 and under are half price on the fast trains, regional trains have a different policy. Note that the policies are different depending on where the ticket is bought for the same train. For example, on the train from Munich to Venice, buy tickets on the Austrian website and the children under 14 are free, buy on the Italian website and their policy of children half price governs.

As to Europe being family friendly: not really. Accommodation for 6 in one room is going to be difficult to find so you will usually end up getting multiple rooms. If you go with multiple rooms, do you have a child to be "parent" for the other room(s)?

Sorry, reading now I see that you are renting at least some apartments which is the way to go with 5 children. Many hotels would require that you get 3 rooms for 6 people.

You really have your work cut out for you with all those train reservations, purchasing some tickets in advance, and then dealing with all the peculiarities of paying deposits on private lodging: paypal, wiring money, sometimes using a credit card, some owners with limited English, and then always having to have enough cash on arrival to pay the balance. The only way I could handle it would be to keep to say 8 lodgings and 7 trains total for the whole trip and work from there, extending the stays to fill up the time and adding day trips as needed. But maybe you are super-organized and can keep track of so many transitions. I keep a two pocket folder with all the receipts and maps and public transit directions I need for a week and then discard them as I go. You might need 8 folders of details, maps, and receipts for such a big trip.

"The 1st-class passes are cheaper than full-fare 2nd class tickets."

You can't say that. Rail Passes are sold by the day; full fare tickets are sold by the distance. It depends on how much traveling you do each day. In my experience in Germany in the last 15 years (10 trips), 2nd class tickets have always been less expensive than a 2nd class pass, let alone a 1st class pass. I use a lot of Länder-Tickets (regional passes), which are just as flexible as a rail pass.

In a country like France, where you have to reserve your train well in advance, so they don't run out of passholder "reservations", a rail pass is no more flexible, sometimes less so, than discounted tickets.

If a person is smart, they will reserve all of their accommodations in advance, so they will not be flexible as to the day of travel. Then it is just a matter of which train that day to take. Often, particularly if you are traveling some distance, there are only one or two trains that day that won't have you leaving too early or arriving too late, so there's not much flexibility even with a rail pass.