Tour or Independent?

$100 per person per day .... now there's a challenge !!
Travelling comfortably as a couple I very much doubt you could do hotel and meals for less than AU$150pp per day. (As a note for others AU$1.00 = US$0.72 currently)
When you consider an organised tour covers transport, accommodation, some meals, sightseeing entrances, as well as a guide I think a tour can offer good value, even up to AU$250 pp per day. Then you also have the stress removed and new friends added as a bonus.

I would definitely look at a mix of both tours (for Morocco and Greece) and independent for the rest.

Going with Intrepid, for example, with all guaranteed departures ...

Morocco - 24 Apr 2016 to 6 May 2016
http://www.intrepidtravel.com/au/morocco/morocco-uncovered-93094
Casablanca to Marrakech
$1669 for 12 nights ($139 per day)

France & Spain - 7 May 2016 to 4 Jun 2016
http://www.intrepidtravel.com/au/spain/france-spain-94083
Paris to Barcelona
$6655 for 28 nights ($237 per day)

4 weeks for independent travel
Barcelona >> Provence >> Cote d'Azur >> Italy >> Athens

Greece - 2 Jul 2016 to 9 Jul 2016
http://www.intrepidtravel.com/au/greece/sail-greece-santorini-mykonos-95958
Santorini to Mykonos
$1548 for 7 nights ($221 per day)

However, the most cost effective option for a 10 week trip could be ...

Fly to Casablanca for one week organised tour in Morocco.
Then to book hostels for a week each in 8 key locations from which to explore. Pre book trains between.
1) Seville
2) Madrid
3) Barcelona
4) Provence/Cote d'Azur
5) Paris
(fly to Venice)
6) Venice/Padova
7) Florence
8) Rome
Fly to Athens for one week organised tour in Greece.

A well reasearched trip can be significantly cheaper than an organized tour. But it is also easy to over spend if you do not have time to plan, to know what you want to see and do, to find good lodging options and deals. An organized trip handles all of that for you. I like to read the brochures to see what they consider the best spots, then look up the details of what intrigues me.

My opinion.

As Beth says.. a well researched trip can be much cheaper then a tour. My nephew did a contiki tour.. and picked them because of the cheap up front price.. DON'T be fooled as he was.. he said he was constantly nickel and dimed..

Another point.. is on a long trip you mix and match destinations.. spending more time in less expensive places .. and a bit less in more expensive ones.
For example.. we are doing 28 days this upcoming May.. our budget is not as tight as yours of course.. but still..
We struggled to keep our hotels below 100 euros a night ( so 50 euros each) in cities like Amsterdam, Paris and London.. however.. places I am looking at on Greek islands CHEAP!! Now.. we are not going to visit Santorini.. very touristy and pricey.. but I have several great hotel choices for less then 50 euros per night on the island of Naxos.. ( so 25 euros each!) and we are not even looking at the cheapest places.. so you could do better I bet.

Spain also has some great cheap places.. but we found them in smaller towns..

Food is easy to go cheap on in all the places ( I mean all the places I have been, which include all on your list except Morroco and Turkey) .. my friends love Morroco and find it cheap though.. We eat street food, visit bakeries etc for stuff.. I can easily spend less then 20 euros a day in PAris for food.. but I will then splurge on a special meal, an option perhaps not available to you.. but you can eat fine without eating fancy sit down meals .. bakeries, delis, grocery stores,, and as I said street kiosks.

I think you could mix and match some touring with mostly independent travel , depends on your comfort level.

BTW.. keep in mind everytime you move to another destination , it costs money.. so try not to plan some trip on 2 night stays.. try and find hubs to stay in and daytrip from them..

We are committed to self-planned trips, whether 3 nights or 30. We average Euro 200/day for the two of us for lodging and food, but if I were more rigorous (cooking more, other lodging choices) I could easily cut that to 150-175 for two in Italy & France. (Have not been to the other countries yet.)

Our budget for transportation and site entrances, and the occasional splurge for a guide, run about Euro 100.00 per day for the two of us. This includes all trains to-from a city, passes, buses & Metros, guide fees, museum entrances, etc.

So I would estimate Euro 300.00 for two people per day in Italy or France, with the possibility of cutting that to 250.00 (or less) if you are rigorous about budget lodging, picnics, cooking on occasion, and don't drink a lot of alcohol.

As to tours, I would be careful about the budget ones. Read the reviews. Verify where they eat and sleep. Are they places you would choose yourself? Does the tour move at a pace you would enjoy? How many people are on the bus? What is the average age of the group? I think if the average age is 55-70, you two might be a little frustrated....

Laurel's 250 euro per day is about AU$400 for 2 people, or $200 pp per day.
What is your target budget? AU$150 pp per day (accomm, transport, meals, sightseeing) may be possible but you will definitely be in hostel territory then.

Needlessly spending money is one thing, having enough to enjoy your stay another. Your AU$ 100 is at the moment some EUR 65. That won't bring you far in western Europe. A decent, far from luxurious dinner with a glass of beer or wine will cost you some EUR 20. A museum EUR 10. A city bus ticket EUR 1,50. A train ticket from Amsterdam to Berlin EUR 40, provided you bought it well in advance. A hotel room in a provincial town might be found at EUR 50, but in Rome and Paris prices start at EUR 100, unless you are prepared to stay far out of the centre. AU$ 150 seems also to me a reasonable minimum, provided you are able to compensate higher costs in western Europe with cheaper travelling outside, and possibly be content with a hostel.
Morocco and Greece are a lot cheaper, as are eastern European countries, such as Poland.
I should say your decision should not primarily be the costs, but how you want to travel. Do you want to be able to follow your own preferences on where to stay, when and how long, and what to do there, or to be dependent on the choices some tour operator has made for you?

A few times we have considered a tour, I found that we could cover the same territory for 1/3 to 1/2 less, so we've almost always traveled independently. I consider planning part of the fun.

The one exception was a trip to Turkey. I was intimidated by the language and my general unfamiliarity with everything. There were definitely some plusses to the tour; but, in the end, it put me off tours until such time as we become too feeble to manage independent travel. Reasons? I vastly prefer to choose where I''ll go and how long I'll stay. I can't emphasize too much how important this came to be to me.
I also think I could have ferreted out better accommodations in some of the towns than were provided. One hotel in particular was downright awful and a couple, rather mediocre. (We're not folks who expect the Ritz or Four Seasons.)

Many people your age find hostels to be a great, inexpensive option; and they like the opportunities for impromptu socializing they afford. There are also very cheap hotel chains in some of the countries you're targeting. Check out the other parts of this forum for ways to save on food and other expenses.

I've been on one tour. It was the British Isles and I was a last minute replacement for my mom's friend. I personally won't do one again.

The moment that killed me was when the bus stopped at Gretna Green for about three hours. As far as I was concerned it was a giant tourist trap (but obviously well known by people who were around in WWII). After Gretna Green our next stop was Jedburgh Abbey (the only abbey ruin on the itinerary). We arrived at the abbey and were told we only had time to hop off the bus and take a photo from the parking lot.

I know what I want to see and do, guided tours focus on tourist traps (that generate kickbacks for the guide) rather than on significant historical sights that aren't selling things.

I think independent travel is cheaper, primarily because I don't need "American" style hotels with large rooms and en suite bathrooms. I also don't like lugging a lot of luggage around, so there's no value to having my bags handled for me by a tour.

I really appreciate everyone’s opinions on this, I know travel styles can be very personal and this has been extremely helpful!

Hey Pat (Canada) what do you mean by he was nickel and dimed?
I guess I would be aiming for AU$150 pp per day, that would be the limit of what we would be able to save in the time frame.

If we did not purchase a tour from Australia i.e. through contiki, would there be options for us to join tours in destinations once we arrived? And would these be the cheaper or the same or more expensive if I booked something comparable from Australia?

For example if I booked a short tour from Athens that went to Corinth, Olympus, Meteora and Delphi for 4 days for $800 AUD (Including Accom and 80% of meals) would there be similar options cheaper available from Athens that we could do once we arrived? But the same in any of the destinations, I am just wondering the level of pre-booking that would be needed.

Also whilst talking to Travel agents they have told me that doing some type of Island Hopper tour with Contiki or similar is the only way to guarantee getting the ferry trips from island to island otherwise they book out and you will get stuck, now I don’t know if this is true or not, how late can we get a ferry say from Athens to Santorini or Paros or Mykonos and in-between and back? And price wise is it better to pre-book?

I'm not a particularly spontaneous person, as in I'm not likely to just go over there and see what happens and I'm not likely to change my plans half way through. My one major problem with doing tours is that they just don't spend enough time in those cities you feel deserve a little more and that's where i feel like independent would be better. On the other hand they take you to places further out or in between two larger cities that you would never have thought to go and I'm not adverse to pleasant surprises!

I've often looked at the price of tours and concluded that I could do it far less expensively on my own, so that's what I end up doing.

Several things affect this difference.
1. I stay in far less expensive accommodations. I don't need 24 hr room service, so why pay for it?
2. I use public transportation,
3. The things that interest me tend to be outside big cities, so I stay in them only about 15% of the time.

Your mileage may vary, but, for the most part, I would be hard pressed to spend on my own what big tours charge.

On my tablet so will be brief.

Travel agent lieing about ferries and Greek islands...foot passengers do not have a problem, may be different for this eneeding space for a car.

Travel agents get paid a commission for you buying a tour.

Nickel and dining ,the constant small extra charges that come on the tour. Description may say " see such and such" ...wel. You may see it , or you may actually visit it, but visit is " optional" so you will pay..same with" folk nights" offered , promoted as fun with the group, but extra fee. Extra activities promoted , perhaps admittance is included, but aha, tour guide extrà..

Then do not forget tips , you are absolutely expected to tip the driver and the guide on Contiki tours( not on RS tours, bit RS are alot more expensive)

Tips can add a few hundred dollars

I have taken 13 RS tours in 14 years each after penciling out the cost of doing what is included in his tours with doing it on our own and have always decided on a RS tour not only for just cost but for not having to do any last minute problem solving. Some one posted that tours are very expensive and you always have to deal with extra costs. I have never found that true with a RS tour and his tours do not stay in places that have 24 hour room service. Another thing I really like about RS tours is that he uses 52-54 seat busses for the 24-26 tour members so everyone can have their own 2 seats if they chose so.

If I were going to take a tour, I would take an RS one. I think he offers a good deal for a tour.

However, one of his tours for an area I might be interested in costs over $4600, 13 nights, single occupancy (and not including all meals). Based on my historical data, I can do the ground portion of that trip, single occupancy, ALL meals, for about 900€ (just over $1000 at todays exch. rate). It isn't even close!

BTW, one way tours make the cost appear less is by adding phantom days. That is, the first day usually starts at dinner and the last day ends just after breakfast, so those two days don't really add up to a full day, but they count them as two days. It's better to count nights. Another trick I've seen is to offer a limousine pick up the day you leave home so they can add that day (which ends on the airplane going over).

Re: which is cheaper a tour or independent travel? If I omit the price of the plane ticket, I would say absolutely independent travel, as it pertains to me. Independent travel means you control the spending and you alone . The finance factor is a big part for me too but it's not the driving force behind planning a trip such as what you have in mind...2.5 months, ca 10 weeks. If I had that time span 2.5 mos (30+30+ 15 = say 75-76 days), I could do a trip by myself covering 5-6 countries. Absolutely great to have that time span and the flexibility.

Your main concern is the big bucks, then I would ask what are you willing to sacrifice (given your youthful age) in depriving yourselves of comfort and luxury by cutting corners, scrimp when you have to, limit the partying, stay in spartan places, hostels/university dorms, eat at train stations from time to time, and a host of other steps to keep the expenses down, some of which you may reject out of hand. All of this is tied in with your travel style, what you can or are willing to cope with, put up with, are you high maintenance or the opposite?

Because you are 25 you qualify for Youth Rail Pass, 2nd class..whether it's worth it depends on the itinerary, whether one aspect holds more importance than another., etc.

I loved the one RS tour I took, and while price was very high, it was good value. I was also midsleage and travelling with a child, and I also talked on 12 days pre and post tour independently... Overall was not a cheap vacation, my priorities have changed over the decades( and my ability to afford them)

However these girls are going and on a budget, with a long visit, I do not think a RS tour is a good choice for them at all!

I did three months in Europe with a friend when I was 23 and we were on a very tight budget.

I managed to come back with a few hundred bucks!

Luxury and comfort were not our considerations.
Clean , safe and fun, that's all that we cared about.

Never had fancy meals( more then once had a package of crackers and cheese in the room for dinners) but we we had so much fun, we did hit the main sites, but honestly we also hit nightclubs and bars too!!!

Pat, your tour at 23 sounds like mine at 19: seven weeks in Europe with a Eurail Pass, a good friend, and the willingness to eat lots at the free breakfast then skimp on most meals. That was Europe-on-5-Dollars (US)-a-Day. The desire of the OP today is Europe-on-AUS $150-a-Day, at least that is what the OP is seeking.

SazMcG, You have received lots of good advice here. If you are a fair hand with Excel, plot out a spreadsheet and start researching. A travel agent cannot do this for you. You have to do it.

• Average cost-per-night of a hostel or budget B&B in each place you want to visit

• Average you are likely to spend on meals by city/country. Really look up what other travelers/travel guides say. Rick Steves is excellent at providing this info.

  • Exact cost of tickets to sights you want to see
  • Cost of trains, planes and buses you expect to take
  • Add a bit for unknowns and fluctuations in the exchange rates. I always gave myself 10% "just in case" but never used it. It is nice to come home knowing you did not spend the entire budget!

Yes i know, i feel very blessed for everyone's amazing input!
I feel very inspired now to go and plan my dream holiday knowing it can be possible. $150 pp per day is the limit we can save and i was losing hope it was possible to make it.
Watch my username for more destination specific questions!

And the Internet makes it possible to check absolutely everything: up-to-date ticket prices for museums, some menus for prices, certainly hostels and B&Bs. Guidebooks are essential, too, but invariably something will have different hours or pricing than a guidebook says, so doing your own additional research is helpful to avoid surprises.

I'm not likely to just go over there and see what happens
You don't have to when travelling on your own. As noted above, almost everything can be found on the internet: from train schedules to the opening hours of museums. (The only thing which often needs some patience is finding regional bus schedules.) I always make plans. It's half the fun. And, being dependent on public transport, I have all the hotels booked, and the tickets for flights and longer rail journeys bought in advance.
they just don't spend enough time in those cities you feel deserve a little more
That's one of the many good reasons to do it yourself. Another good reason is that doing it yourself and using the same transport as the locals, makes you much more participate in the countries you're visiting than following the guide and being isolated in a bus, only having contact with the people in the group and never with some other people somewhere on a station platform waiting for the same train.
they take you to places ... that you would never have thought to go
That's an issue of good preparation. There is hardly any city or region in Europe which isn't covered by dozens of guide books. And don't forget: tours very much limit themselves to the usual suspects. People who go on tours, always tell me they have seen so much. That might be true, but they've always seen a lot of things I'm not interested in, and I've always seen things they have not because they are not on the beaten path.

Saz, Pay particular attention to Pat's and similar posts as she/they are right on. Today $150.00 AU is $108.00 US (I need this comparison to relate). I think you can easily do this for less than $100.00 US PP per day, excluding airfare. Your accommodations won't be glamorous, but they will be safe and mostly clean. As an example: a few years ago, I stayed at a small hotel in Amsterdam proper on a canal that had a million dollar view for PP $35.00 US; bed clean, bathroom clean, but wore shoes when walking on the rug. There are many such opportunities. I once stayed in Edinburgh at a Juries Inn for less than a hostel in York, so you just need to hunt thoroughly. When we are older and have access to more money we do get softer (LOL, in many ways) and make more demands of our accommodations, mainly for me a really good mattress... Figure out what you want for your daily hotel budget and your daily spending budget and keep track of all your spending in a journal. Watch your averages, as you might spend more one day and compensate the next. Hostels are also an option, but with two I often find hotels less expensive. Independent travel will allow you to adjust to your budget and see what you want to see. You'll have a great time. Wray

When we were young we travelled on our own by various means and on various levels of budgeting.
That's how we fostered our joy in travel. Sometimes we had challenging experiences but mostly we enjoyed our forays into unknown places...and I think that 's how travel should be done when you are young.

Now that age has caught up with us (big time) we are still travelling independently but we also go on tours - sometimes it's a treat to let others take control of your vacation and we are willing to,pay for that privilege.

We've taken 4 RS tours and found them good value for money . We've also noted that the tour members are mostly heading into the World of Elderdom! So, if I was in my 20s I would not hesitate to strike out on my own and explore even with a limited amount of money...save the tours for when you
are older, less adventuresome, short on time but fuller of wallet.

Do it independently! You don't have to spend a lot of money on hotels. There are many options. Try hostels. When you stay in a hostel you meet lots of other young people, who will happily give you advice! Or look for specials in hotels. We (family of 4) stayed in Travelodges and Premier Inns for 30 pounds a night (for all 4 of us) a number of times this past summer. You will have much more flexibility looking for only 2. You don't have to eat in restaurants either. Picnic for your lunches and you will save a bundle of money. Shopping in local markets for lunch is fun too! You have options for dinners too. Sure, you can spend 20 euros for a dinner, but you don't have to. There are many expensive things to do in Europe but there are all the usual fun, cheap things to do too -- hiking is cheap. Make sure you have enough to see the things you want to see, but I see no reason why you couldn't do in on the budget you mention.

You'll need to do some planning, but the internet is such a great resource!

Ok so book flights and long train journeys beforehand, what about those Greek ferries, would people recommend booking those before we leave? Or website suggested contacting a local travel agent in Athens to book and hold them but I don’t know about that.

I have looked at BnB accommodation, is that a trustworthy site? Or otherwise a website like hotels.com would that be the best to book accom?

I booked rail tickets ahead of time for big discounts - locks you into particular day/time so does eliminate some flexibility but savings made up for it, for me anyway. I found most of my budget hotels on booking.com. I found many nice 1-2 star hotels/b&b's/small family run inns, etc in central locations at quite low rates and most of those were cancelable up until the day before at no fee so some flexibility there. My expenses for last year's 5 week trip (including transport between stops, accommodations, food, and sightseeing came to about $140/day US$, but that was for a solo - you'll be able to do better per/person sharing the cost of hotels and picnic meal fixings so I think your budget will work just fine. You could save even more by staying in hostels in the more expensive cities but that's only if you want to go that route, it's not necessary.

There is no advantage to booking Greek ferries ahead of time and little chance a ferry will be completely booked (unless you're transporting a car, which I don't think you're doing).

Buy tickets for your first ferry in Athens. And then purchase the others on each island, the day before you leave for the next one. This gives you the flexibility to spend more time on an island, if you really love it, or to leave earlier, if you don't.

I have looked at BnB accommodation, is that a trustworthy site? Or otherwise a website like hotels.com would that be the best to book accom?

I like to use Booking.com as it puts the availability of many properties at many price ranges in one place for my consideraton. All of the reviews on the site are by people who have actually stayed in the facility, and many reservations are cancellable, which I find handy if I change my mind while doing further research. I will sometimes book a room that appeals to me, then as I do more research if I find one more appealing, I simply book that and cancel the other one.

That said, i also check the websites of properties directly to see what they have to offer, especially if they are sold out on Booking.com as Booking.com only had some of the inventory at hotels and B&Bs they represent. They do not necessarily have everything.

If I am not finding anything that appeals or think the prices are nuts, I will simply Google "B&B in Amsterdam" for example, and then I sometimes find local properties that are not on the big booking sites. I found a room for my son last year in Amsterdam doing such a search. It was central and only Euro 115 per night, and the property consisted of only one room and one apartment for rent. Everything else I looked at was Euro 140 or higher, or rather distant from the center. I also did such a search to find a a 2-bedrooms apartment in a mountain resort town for only Euro 100 per night in July. There are treasures out there, but the research takes time....

I use booking.com a lot; if you need flexibility, you can check their site the day you decide to move on, or sign up for bargain alerts for last-minute deals (check the map carefully for locations).

I have always traveled on my own, never taken a tour. Many cities have reasonably priced guided tours, or major sights have good tour guides on site. My travel budget now is 100 euro per day, much less in smaller towns (I look for places that include breakfast, and occasionally dinner is a cup of yogurt from the grocery store). I like being able to vary the level of service (simpler in big cities where more money goes for sights, almost luxurious in smaller cities).