tips for total novice travellers

Get the Rick Steves Book, EUROPE THROUGH THE BACK DOOR - we go to Europe a couple times a year and still skim the book each time - it will teach you things like how to get out Euros, how to use a CC, how to take trains, so many things. You can get it on this site, although sometimes it is cheaper on Amazon.

Also, on this site, under TRAVEL TIPS - read them all - esp the ones about money - you will learn so much.

The RS GuideBooks are also amazing.

Our list is long -- too long! The big ones include Croatia (family roots and relatives), Italy (food and wine!), England/UK (family roots), and Scandinavia (roots). We realize wanting to see all that would likely require two trips across several years.....
We don't mind visiting the big cities, but we are much more interested in spending most time soaking up the natural beauty of mountains/streams/lakes/rivers/oceans, etc, taking in the countryside, and maybe seeing some castles or doing agritourismo.

Good to see you realize your wish list is more than a single 12-18 day trip. Recognizing the problem makes solving it much easier. I suspect many would say your wish list is more than 2 trips.

For planning think of how many nights you will be there.

Pick one of the countries you want to visit and list out where/what you want to do. You can use google maps or rome2rio to get an idea of what transportation modes are available and an idea of how long it takes to get from place to place. That should help you determine just what is feasible in whatever your time frame is.
12 nights or 18 nights is a significant difference

Happy planning

Start with passports.which now usually only takes a.couple of months. Then buy his Europe.book. it is going to save you lots of money and stress. When you narrow down tentative countries come back for advice before you commit to anything. Nothing is more discouraging than a novice traveler booking and paying for airfare that does not make sense. Also remember no question you ask is not necessary. We were all novices and even with that said we surely don't know all the ins and outs of traveling. welcome to the forum!!! An afterthought but you said children are soon to be adults. If they are not eighteen wait if you can to get passports. Under eighteen they are only good for five years I seem to remember and eighteen and over good for ten years. You can get pictures at most CVS I think or AAA and then apply at a post office that processes them.with an appointment.

I hope you go for the full 18 so you'll feel less rushed and you'll get the most time in Europe for the unpleasant transatlantic flights. They're to be endured but they're over in a matter of hours. (Of course if you can afford first class that's another story!)

Europe Through the Back Door is a great "how to" guide. You might want to look at some country-specific guidebooks in your local library to help you decide where to go. I might suggest starting with England/UK since you have family roots and they speak (more or less) our language. You could spend all your time there, or add one of the other countries you mentioned -- maybe a Scandinavian country if it's summer, or Italy or Croatia if it's a colder season. There are cheap flights all over Europe, so you could go almost anywhere. But don't spread yourselves too thin in the time you have -- every time you change cities you're losing at least half a day, maybe a whole day, just getting yourselves to a new place.

The RS website you're visiting has tons of good information about sights to see, the planning process, and specific topics like money, staying in touch, getting around, communicating with locals, etc. You're wise not to want to plan every minute, but it's good to have an itinerary as long as you can be flexible when something unexpected happens. The best use of this forum, I think, is to get answers to specific questions, or suggestions about specific places or activities. Many of us enjoy planning trips almost as much as taking them. Happy hunting.

Thank you SO Much everyone!!! I will for sure do more reading through the forum and look into my library's copy of Rick's general Europe book until we are closer to the actual travel dates - did not realize that book was out there. Thanks again and I'll be back!

I’d recommend getting some travel credit cards so you can fly almost free and use booking.com for your hotels-look for hotels early with cancellation date close to your visit and you can adjust anytime up to then at no charge…read the travel forum each day as I do for great ideas about your destinations.

”The big ones include Croatia (family roots and relatives), Italy (food and wine!), England/UK (family roots), and Scandinavia (roots).”. Those are all wonderful! They could easily be four separate full-itinerary trips.

One portion of this travel forum that’s very helpful when you’re just starting to think about which countries to visit is to browse through the “Trip Reports” category under the “Tips & Trip Reports” main category. It will give you a good idea of how much someone covers in two weeks or three.

One comment since we lived near the Seattle area for thirty years, and I see you live in Washington. When you’re beginning to decide which locations to include, I see that you’re outdoor enthusiasts. Since you have been anticipating this for awhile, and it will be a special trip, think about each nature site. “Could this be nearly duplicated in the Pacific Northwest or British Columbia in Canada?” You really want special sites that are memorably, distinctively European. As examples, the Dolomites in northern Italy will have a distinct look, along with their charming village architecture; Plitvice Lakes National Park in Croatia is uniquely amazing.

You might want to look up some YouTube videos of the countries on your list. There’s a lot of people with short videos that can help you begin to make your list of possible spots to see. It’s a fun process! I’ve been to each of your areas, and the UK and Croatia will be the easiest for speaking English.

By the way, I wouldn’t buy a passport until you’re within a year of traveling. I would pick one of your countries and buy the Rick Steves guidebook of it. Read every page and mark it up; there’s so much in them to answer questions we didn’t even know to ask when we first started traveling.

https://www.skyscanner.net/ is a very good site for finding flights. Put in your start airport and destination country as this could well trow up flights that are not just to the capital city. Select whole month as some flights are only on certain days/seasons. Click on a price and it will tell you the airline. Always book direct from the airline site.

Low cost airlines such as Easyjet and Ryan Air in Europe come in with cheap flights but have add ons for baggage / seat selection etc.

Many people in Europe travel by train but for wandering country areas, car hire is best.
https://www.seat61.com will tell you everything you need to know about train travel.

When asking about accommodation on this forum, be sure to state whether you are using public transport or have hired a car. (If using public transport, you need accommodation that is near stations but if hiring a car, your priority will be having free parking at hotel). Always look on Google Maps and then street view at any planned accommodation. Also look at the roads. Are they super highways or country lanes where you might have to drive backwards to a passing place if someone is coming the other way?

For accommodation, state on a forum like this whether you are looking for 5*, cheapo or something in between?

I don’t know why you want to delay for 2 or 3 years? Perhaps you are over thinking this because you have never left north America?

Someone has suggested you start with the UK as everyone speaks English - although English is widely spoken in most countries. Note that in the UK, you drive on the left so for a first trip, consider using public transport if going to this country - unless going to more remote areas.

You might enjoy these walking tours on YouTube :>https://www.youtube.com/c/bookinghuntertv/about

It's great that you're beginning early to plan such a momentous trip. Planning a trip so far out with adult kids involved adds an extra twist as schedules can be a little more difficult to mesh once the kids are out of high school.

We travelled to Ukraine to visit relatives when our kids were 13, 10 and 7. We had a day stopover in UK each way and decided we needed to get back to the UK with our kids. As it turned out, we became very involved with the local children's theatre and ice hockey, and we didn't get down to planning that trip---until just as our oldest was finishing up his junior year of high school. Late spring we looked at each other and said "oh, no, we need to do this before he graduates." I believe we were able to use Alaska Airlines airmiles for a few of the tickets, even at that late date. We went in August. It would be a lot more difficult to pull off a trip in such short notice, now. We stayed predominantly in Rick Steves recommended bnbs. His book was our bible---my kids got tired of me saying.."Rick Steves says..." We've come a long way in our confidence for planning trips now, but we still refer to his books, especially as a starting point. (Our 33 yr old daughter and her partner travelled with us this fall...she was insistent with him that they needed to get their own copies of RS's Scotland and England books, LOL).

Maybe you'll start planning and decide to travel sooner.

Dick's suggestion to begin with the UK is a very good one (although visiting living relatives gives some weight to Croatia).

I heartily endorse having some personal connection to at least one piece of your trip. Every trip we've had to the UK, we've added some family history to it---looking for gravestones in Cornwall, visiting birthplace villages of my grandmother, great-grandmother and many more Just this October we visited SW Scotland to see the village of my gggrandmother. Our 3 week trip in 2018 was at least 2/3s focused on my ancestral towns and villages in Yorkshire, Essex, Cambridgeshire and Suffolk. My husband has driven over 5000 miles between the UK and Ireland. Our 2001 trip was mostly by train, although we did get a car for Cornwall. That was his first experience driving over there.

In 2022, our family (kids 38, 35, 32 + 1 partner) visited Luxembourg (where my husband and kids "reclaimed" my husband's gggrandfather's Luxembourg citizenship), as well as his German ancestral villages which he and I visited in 2018, We also usually do some "touristy" stuff---we visited Paris before and after Luxembourg.

Please feel free to contact me by PM if you want to toss ideas around or if I can be of any help. BTW, I'm in WA, too...

Cheryl

Another thought, get your kids input and involvement early. Have each kid do some research and add to the potential locations/activities list. Let them take a turn at leading the day's activities. When we were in York, our 17 year-old had the best sense of direction to get us back to our bnb late one night. It was great for us to value his contribution, and for him to gain some confidence--even though there were some wrong twists and turns, he led the way.

You have received so much good advice so far from getting RS books to waiting until a year before you travel to get your passport.

This may sound a bit odd or old fashioned, but when my husband and I started to travel again, we had very different ideas as to where we would go. We literally put the choices in a hat and chose one. It ended up Spain-one of his choices-one I hadn’t even come close to thinking of. It was a fabulous trip and I’m so happy we went.

I think the ideal length for a trip to Europe is about 2.5 to 3 weeks. Shorter than 2 weeks, and you are not getting a good value for your airfare costs (the cost for this particular component probably does not change enough to notice whether your trip is 3 days or 3 months). There's plenty to see and do (more than you can possibly accomplish) so try to aim for a longer trip, you'll get more out of it. Longer than 3 weeks and it eventually starts to wear you down, you start to miss sleeping in your own bed, and other things.

Don't try to squeeze in too many places. We all have to fight this urge to see everything (or add "one more place"). First-time travelers make this mistake often, and then their trip becomes a blurry deathmarch, years of therapy ensue (well, maybe).

Avoid one-night stands to the extent that you can. A few of those scattered in a 2-3 week trip is fine, but don't change locations every day, that'll kill you'll - you spend all your time on moving from place to place, and the mundane logistics of survival (taking care of life's basic requirements of food, shelter, gelato, wine, etc. takes time, like it or not), and if you're always en route to somewhere, you never actually get to BE anywhere and enjoy it.

It's possible to "pair" different places, but beware...not everything "goes together"...

The big ones include Croatia (family roots and relatives), Italy (food
and wine!), England/UK (family roots), and Scandinavia

None of those pair well for a first-time traveling family.

That's 3-5 trips right there: Croatia is fairly compact, but it's dense with great stuff. 2.5 to 3 weeks there and you will only hit the highlights.

"Italy" is a surprisingly large, diverse country, and you simply can not see everything from the Alps to Sicily in 2.5 to 3 weeks, even if you're experienced travelers and efficient (and you won't be either of those things).

"Scandinavia isn't a single country, it's a region, and a big one. Break Scandinavia down into it's components and consider each separately.

For your first time in Europe, the United Kingdom makes an excellent choice. Less of a language barrier (mostly just an accent barrier) and cultural familiarity will make it easy and accessible. Plenty to see there, too. Don't try to squeeze Ireland in as part of that, it needs 2.5 weeks by itself.

Finally, in addition to the good advice you've already received, here are some timeless axioms to remember:

1. Be sure to allow time for getting form Point A to Point B. Too many first-timers naively assume that they will somehow be transported instantly from London to Edinburgh, from Milan to Naples. No you won't, you'll spend most of a day just getting yourself there EACH TIME YOU MOVE. Face that reality early, before you set your heart on 14 places in two weeks.

2. Any group only moves as fast as the speed of it's slowest, crankiest, least-enthusiastic member.

3. Bring more money (well, available credit card credit) and less clothes than you think you'll need.

4. Expect to make mistakes. You will. You will get lost (maybe often), you will get confused, frustrated, discouraged. That's OK, everyone does. You'll get better at all this with experience, so don't beat yourself up for making a mistake. Mistakes = accumulated wisdom.

And don't forget to have fun - every day. This is a grand adventure. Magic is gonna happen. Pay attention when it does and savor the experiences.

Use Google maps when you get lost. Accept that it will cost you in data fees. It will be worth it for the peace of mind.

Try to plan for a longer stay (4 - 5 nights) sometime around the middle of the trip and stay in an appartment. That will help you wind down because you can fill the refrigerator with your favorite breakfast food (or the closest local alternative), watch tv during breakfast, buy Take-away or TV dinners and just chill. Also select one with a washing machine, so you don't have to sink wash quite so much.

We have used http://www.Booking.com and http://www.VRBO.com to find appartments, but I am sure http://www.Hotels.com or other sites can help you as well.

Since you have 2-3 years until your trip, you have time to become an expert....(LOL)

I'm going to reiterate what others have noted and add a few..

Start learning about travel to Europe. Rick Steve's Europe through the Back Door is a good start as are youtube videos and official travel websites to the place you wish to visit. This website also has sections with travel tips.

Don't limit yourself to just Rick Steves. There are numerous other guidebooks that will have things that RS does not.

The first step is to pinpoint where you want to go and for how long. There is even a section on this website to help with this:

https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-tips/trip-planning

It's too early to book flights but I prefer Google Flights to search for flights. Think about flying "open jaw" which means into one city and out from another. You do this by using the "multi-city" option rather than round trip or one way.

The Man in Seat 61 will teach you all about train travel.

You've been told to book hotels using third party booking sites. I believe in booking direct. Use Trip Advisor and Booking.com to research hotels but see if it is more beneficial to book directly with the hotel. (With third party sites, if there is a problem, you have to deal with the site and not necessarily the hotel.) I'm in hotels 365 days a year and I can count on one hand the number of times I've used Booking.com and I've never used any of the others.

Make sure you have credit cards that have no foreign transaction fees.

Look into travel insurance. You need to book this as soon as you start booking your trip to get the best benefits. (Check your own insurance policies to see if they offer anything related to travel and international health.)

If you are traveling to two regions in one trip for example, get multi-city flights where you arrive in one city on day of arrival and then depart from another city to go home so that you are not backtracking. Usually this is on a drop down menu below the round trip option. For example if you were going to combine the London/UK portion and Scandinavia in one trip fly in to London and fly home from Stockholm or wherever you might be. This is also a good idea if you go to a large country like Italy where you may wish to fly in to Venice and fly home from Milan or Rome. We also use trains within countries and do not rent a car, and use the tube or metro within cities. Starting in London/UK was a good suggestion because of the ease of a familiar language. Possibly save Croatia for your last trip since that is a larger area to navigate.

Kathy,
1) I love planning our overseas trip. It is best to research where you want to go prior to travel. When you arrive you should already have your lodgings booked as well as a good idea what you will do each day. When going from point to point, plan your transport and how much time that takes.
2) You mentioned several countries and areas of Europe that can't be done in one trip. Example, if going to Italy, initially stick with Venice, Florence and Rome. That will take you 10-14 days. Use the high speed train between those cities. A city like Rome deserves 5-7 days. Try to visit places close together. Croatia and Italy would be great for 3 weeks. We have done four weeks just renting a car and driving in Great Britain (Wales and England), not even visiting London.
3) Always carry backup cash, buying your Euros or other currency using ATM Bank machines when you arrive. Buy Euros in the USA you get a poor exchange rate. Use your credit cards as much as possible and don't chose the option of paying in US dollars. Pay in local currency. Pickpockets can be bad in places like Barcelona, Paris, Rome and Naples area. Wear a money belt or carry a pacsafe purse.
4) Visiting Croatia, don't miss Dubrovnik and Split.
5) Most cellphone plans in the USA don't work in Europe. I don't pay for the European coverage, since you can still use you phone when you have wifi.
6) Try not to overpack. You should manage with one suitcase and a small carry on. I keep my itinerary on a document that I printed prior to the trip. It should contain all your reservations, addresses and contact numbers. Let you family back home know where you will be each night and give them an emergency contact number.

Best tip i think is to take the factual advice you find here. That is how to get from point A to point B sort of stuff when presented by someone who actually did it. Also enjoy the trip reports but remember we are all different and just because Karen enjoyed the hell out of spending 16 weeks in some remote Tuscan village, you dont have to feel the same way. Then ignore the rest. Or at least treat is with skepticism and research it and take nothing at face value.

Here are some thoughts:

1. If you don't have your passports go ahead and apply for them now.
2. After you receive the passports, go ahead and apply for for Global Entry which gives you TSA Pre-Check after approval.
3. Credit cards; no foreign transaction fees. We carry three separate cards at three different institutions. If we have a problem traveling, we switch cards. Nothing like having an issue several thousand miles away from home and trying to deal with it from afar.
4. Two separate ATM cards on two different institutions for cash you may need to obtain along the way. You want ones that reimburse any foreign fees.
5. Packing; one bag or more, carryon or checked. You will get an overwhelming amount of advice on this forum on this subject.

I agree with other posters that you plan a trip to the London and the UK earlier if time and finances allow. If for no other reason than you can some confidence on how you want to travel internationally. Things like transportation, walking around, figuring out where things are, etc. take on a whole new perspective when traveling internationally. Remember your travel skills and approach will evolve as you travel. Have fun and enjoy.

I’d recommend getting some travel credit cards so you can fly almost free and use booking.com for your hotels-look for hotels early with cancellation date close to your visit and you can adjust anytime up to then at no charge.

I'm with Frank II on this one. I only book directly with the hotel or B&B. It gives me peace of mind knowing that if any problems arrive, they will be the ones to take care of it, and I also like knowing that usually the cost will be less booking direct. There are exceptions of course. You can certainly use sites like booking.com to search for available hotels, but try to book at the hotel website if possible.

You can also come here for hotel advice. I find many of my accommodations here on this forum, based on recommendations from other members. I'm heading to England in early spring and probably half of my lodgings are based on info from this forum. Use the search function on the RS forum: on a laptop, it's at the top of the page on the left, and on a phone or device, click on the menu bar in the upper left corner (the one with multiple horizontal lines) and the search feature will appear. Once it's opened, you can filter your search to get more recent reviews.

And if you don't see it, ask. Post a question asking if anyone has any recommendations for a hotel at your destination. We all love to give advice. 🤣

After you receive the passports, go ahead and apply for for Global Entry which gives you TSA Pre-Check after approval.

I would hold off on that. Unless you are planning to make overseas travel a yearly event, it doesn't make any sense to spend the money and time to get Global Entry. TSA, yes, because you can use that on domestic flights. But Global Entry is only when you return to the US for customs, and while you do save time, it's not worth having if you only take one international flight every 3-5 years.

I also agree that England or the UK would be a good first trip for a novice overseas traveler. England was the first place I went to in Europe back in the mid-90's and not having to worry about the language barrier made it so much easier. I fell in love with it when I was there, went back again in 1999 and now I'm heading there for 5 weeks in late March through April.

But to reiterate, keep checking back here, especially before you book your flights. There's nothing worse than someone coming here who has already booked a round-trip flight to and from Paris but wants to end the trip in Naples, Italy. Members would have shown the OP (original poster) how to book a multi-city flight so that you fly into one destination and out of another. It's usually no more expensive to do so, and can save you a lot of time and money in transportation. We can also tell you airports to avoid for layovers (I'm looking at you, JFK and CDG).

It is great that you're starting early! As the others have said, read guidebooks. There are also some great YouTube videos out there dealing with travel. Some things to be aware of when you are choosing a destination are things like this:

• Interests: it sounds like you love the outdoors, along with castles and farmlands. You will find that in the UK, France, Germany and many other places. Look at the various guidebooks, vie photos, and make many, many lists! 😊
• Time of year: If it's summer, maybe head for northern climates (keeping in mind that summer is very popular with tourists). Many people here travel in the shoulder season (April/May and Sept/Oct) but even those can get crowded, depending on the location.
• Cost: As an example, England is more expensive than Italy, but not as expensive as Scandinavia.
• Language: Obviously the UK speaks English for the most part. Almost everyone in the Netherlands and Scandinavia speak English. Most people in Germany speak England, although there are outlying areas where you will find those who do not. Most people in the more traveled areas of Italy speak England.

Wow, you all are amazing.

So many great tips here already. I will save this entire discussion. For my fellow northwesterners - I 'm in central Washington, but would fly out of Seattle.

We want to wait a few years bc:
1) we like to save up so we can avoid debt/pay cash,
2) we like to learn as much as possible so we can avoid/minimize mistakes, and
3) we are not sure we will take the kids with us or not. We are leaning towards this just being a trip for the two of us - something we have never done. Kids could take care of the house/pets, etc. while we are gone. Lastly, being very green travelers - and I know this probably sounds silly given that I am a fully-functioning adult (I swear!) - I need to psychologically prepare for this being the furtherest/longest air travel experience, and longest time away from home.

Thank you for the idea on the train site - I will for sure check out The Man in Seat 61. Train travel in Europe seems very appealing/enjoyable and less stressful than driving (esp. on the opposite side of the road).

Flying into London and exploring London/surrounding region (like within 1-2 hours's drive, eg, Cambridge, Highclere Castle, etc) is appealing for all the reasons everyone has pointed out - English-speaking, less culture shock, etc.

Unfortunately flying first-class is probably beyond our price-point, but given my flying anxiety, it sure would be a nice splurge. But yeah, I assume it would be wayyyy too expensive.

As for lodging, we would be in the mid-price point range. I was planning to book direct based on RS's advice. I am hoping to stay at a castle somewhere too :) We would prefer our own bathroom and airconditoning, but otherwise we are flexible. As of right now, this trip would likely occur in Sept/Oct or May/June.

The point about ensuring the natural sites are not overly similar to our current surrounds in the beautiful Pacific Northwest is well taken. This makes me lean into the idea of focusing 1 week on London, then 2 weeks on the Adriatric coast - maybe just the Croatian side this first trip? Don't throw rotten fruit at me, but we have no desire to see Rome, Florence, or Milan - at least not for our first time in the region.

I do realize Scandinavia is a region ;) And that will likely be a stand-alone trip someday, possibly with my sister instead of my husband. We have lots of family history there, specifically in Norway/Denmark.

I will start with continued study on this site, and get the 2024 edition of Europe through the Back Door. Thanks again everyone!

You will find these 2 chains to offer value for money accommodation in the UK:>
https://www.premierinn.com/gb/en/home.html
https://www.travelodge.co.uk

Note that some are located in city centres and others near highways where a car would be needed.

Kathy, my husband and I love the UK (and Ireland) and have more than a lifetime worth of trips just waiting there for us--not to mention all the return & new places on the continent. That being said, I think you're wise to add a trip to connect with relatives in Croatia, particularly if they are middle age and older and have knowledge of ancestral locations. Extra effort if there are relatives you have never met. Time waits for no one...

How exciting!! You'll have a great time planning and travelling!

Four general suggestions:

As some have noted above, always book directly with hotels. It's ok to use other sites for research, but if something goes amiss, it's much easier to deal directly with the hotel.

Always pack half of your stuff in his bag, and half of his stuff in your bag. Makes no difference if checking or carrying on. Even carry on bags get gate checked. If a bag goes on it's on vacation, at least you'll have enough to get by until it catches up.

Many will say wait until in Europe to get local currency. That's certainly their choice. We feel more comfortable having one or two hundred of the local money in hand when arriving. ATMs do malfunction from time to time.

Some banks and credit cards say it is not necessary to notify them of travel plans. Others say notify them. And some (depending on who you ask) will give you both answers. Be sure you know what the deal is with your banks and credit cards. If in doubt, notify them anyway.

Do you actually know where in the UK your family roots are, and are you looking to visit those locations/that location? Do you know all about those ancestors, or are you looking to delve deeper into that history, maybe through archive centres, while you are here?

I hate to have to admit it here, but I don't look at RS "Europe through the Back Door" as some sort of amazing resource. You have time to read it for yourself and then decide.

When you get down to the details of planning your trip this forum can be a great deal of help or a bit of a pain. It depends a great deal on how you ask for help and how much information you give. The more information and the more targeted your question, the better help you will get. Questions such as "where should I go" , "is (fill in the blank) worth it", and "is (fill in the blank) safe" don't get great answers because they are not great questions. Questions such as, "I am going to be in (fill in the blank) for two days. I am looking for accommodation suggestions and what was your favorite activity when you were there." should get some pretty good responses.

I find that You Tube has some great resources. If I want to know how to get the central part of a city from the airport or what the train station looks like, I always look it up on you tube. I suppose I am a bit of a visual learner but I really enjoy "seeing" a place in advance.

Your library is also a good source. Travel books can be checked out and enjoyed at no cost. Always double check any key information such as opening hours, prices on the internet to make sure you have the up to date info.

Apps: This is definitely the digital age for travel as well.

Tripit: I like this app for trip planning. It keeps track of all your reservations and itinerary. It is especially helpful for me as I often have 4-5 trip plans going at once.
Airline: Make sure you have your airline's apps downloaded and working
Transport: City Mapper will get you around almost any major city.
Local transport apps are also good to have.
Polarsteps: I post and document my trip and only those I've given access to can see it.

Finally, I vote for a trip for just the two of you. This is a special time in life and deserves a special treat.

Another thing to think about is what kind of trip do you want to have?

My husband and I traveled to Europe several times before having kids and went to multiple countries each time and always by train. And the UK was not among them. I figured it would be easier and better for when we were “older”. We didn’t pick up travel again until our children were grown. Now we go to one country and sometimes rent a car. We have loved both ways but something to think about in terms of preference.

If you do take your children, I would think about the cost of the places you are going more carefully. We have made a couple trips with adult children and frankly I enjoy it more when spending less!

Unless you have compelling reasons to delay this trip for two to three years, that would not be my advice. You have a good deal of good, pertinent , practical advice here.

I would suggest too that you start the trip by going to the UK mainly for linguistic and culture reasons, getting oriented, adjusted, etc. My first trip over at 21 of 12 weeks and solo began with landing in London on a charter flight from OAK, (good that I did as it was the first time away from CA), spent a few nights there, then proceeded to spend more than half the 12 weeks traveling only in (west) Germany. This was in 1971.

As pointed out, read and consult various guide books, Rough Guide and Lonely Planet, etc, along with the internet, determine your priorities, (this can be hard to very hard), be realistic as to what can do done logistically and energy-wise, ( I call it "pacing yourself"), be flexible, factor in "down time" and tailor your schedule and plans accordingly.

You know yourself and your travel style, your level of comfort, etc. Deciding in the final analysis can be taxing given your group's possible desires. For me that was relatively easy as I was alone in deciding on the top priority places to visit, the so-called "must sees"....London, Vienna, (west) Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, Bonn, Lüneburg,

Another point of view: Our first overseas trip (we were 52 and 54) was to Italy. We've made 20 trips since then and have yet to visit any place in the UK. We are glad we delved directly into a place that was so different from the U.S.

”Don't throw rotten fruit at me, but we have no desire to see Rome, Florence, or Milan - at least not for our first time in the region.”

Kathy, I love your sense of humor! Since you live in central Washington, if you get the chance, we have a local group of travelers with lots of different traveling styles who frequent this travel forum. We meet up at Coeur d’Alene on the first Saturday of each month at the Woops French Bakery on 4th at 10am. There’s a lot of knowledge within the group, and we have lots of fun sharing recent ideas or new hints, asking questions, etc. New travelers are always welcome! I usually post the next meet up in this forum, too.

And yes, there are no “must sees”. It’s your trip! : )

I agree with others that you should not limit yourself to Rick Steves guides. Although it is our first go to for a quick overview (and was the 'bible' a couple of decades ago, we also get the Rough guide and Lonely Planet books from the library (and Fodors and any others that happen to be there). We are not afraid to drop $ at the local Barnes & Noble for additional books and maps for planning. When you're spending $$$ on a trip, it makes sense to have as many tools in hand.

Once you decide on your location, be sure to check city and town websites for information on events and the local take on tourist sites and nature offerings.

Where to go: Where ever most interests you. If you have any doubts then do two very dissimilar location on the same trip.

How to travel: Settle into one location for an extended stay or do a quick 1 or 2 night per stop sampler tour.

How to get there: Fewer changes of planes is easier and more certain. Layovers of 2 to 4 hours work in most airports (LHR or CGD add an hour); otherwise all airlines are at least “okay” so pick the cheapest that meets your criteria. The trip over and the trip back should each be on one ticket to avoid getting stranded. Any flights while there can be on as many tickets as works for you.

What to carry: Avoid extremes until you have traveled a bit. Nothing wrong with a carry on and a checked bag. You can choose to join the super light club some day if that lights your fire.

Moving within Europe: Experience at least one short train, maybe an overnight train and a discount airline. Then decide what works best for you in the future. No wrong answer here.

Hotel: If on a budget do a 3 star. But sometime the hotel can be part of the tour; like a castle hotel or a mountain resort like the Kempinski High Tatras or a historic building like the Budapest Four Seasons. Again, no wrong answer. But do try and be close to the center of the tourism, or easily accessible to it, to save on transportation time.
Rental Car: You can, but I think you have enough “new” going on and public transportation is generally easy and cheap.

Phone: yes, with international service. I like TMobile but there are other choices. But you should have it.

Rick Steves: There are better guide books for a lot of Europe. I like the Eyewitness Guides. Guide books heavily laden with hotel and restaurant recommendations are less useful than internet searches.

Language: don’t sweat it. They speak English.

We did an Italy-Croatia trip a few years back. I will share a few key takeaways, and let others talk about the more general aspects or very specific hotel or food info. At the time we lived in Munich and did it all with our car, but obviously you can pick up a car at any point or make other arrangements. But first, a few general tips:

--Location of your hotel matters. A LOT.
--Look into local festivals and events to see if any look appealing
--Consider things like weather and peak tourist season
--Do some reading beforehand on each of your destinations--look at things like TripAdvisor, but also try googling things like "reasons to visit X" or looking at the odd travel blog. Guidebooks are also better than you might think. You can skim, take a few notes on sites, then do some digging. You will find lots of ideas for places that appeal specifically to YOU.
--Google Maps and the like are your friend. You can click on any interesting icon or named place and see if something pops out as a must-see or as underwhelming or an off-the-main-track attraction. You can also find places to stay on Google Maps.

We started in Venice. Our key takeaways here were that Venice is overly crowded and full of tourists and that the best way to see Venice would have been to stay on the island and going out more early and late. We liked Venice, but it was probably our least favourite part of the trip.

From there we drove to San Marino. I cannot say enough good things about this little country, and of course driving there from Venice was an experience. And if you can go during Medieval Days, it is even better--we didn't plan it that way, but it made for a truly special experience when our timing ended up perfect. So for planning purposes, consider this.

From there we drove to Florence. Here our key takeaway here is one we have experienced often--location of hotel is far more important than anything else. We also did a day trip to Pisa--fun, better if you do some reading beforehand, and if you do it by car, you have the added bonus of driving around Tuscany and maybe stopping at a random village for lunch or visiting a Medici villa or . . . . (yes, we did this).

We drove on to Rome, and here are two CRITICAL takeaways: 1) Sundays are super quiet and great if you DO have to drive. Everyone is at church / mass. Also, plan accordingly when visiting any churches, etc. 2) It gets hot. A central location means you can go out early, see things, have a nice lunch, go back and nap through the hot part of the day, and go out and see more and get another meal in the evening. Other good day activities would be indoor or underground (catacombs, for example). Central location and/or plan for afternoon breaks at cafes with cool drinks.

From there we drove to Bari since we had already been to Naples. We did a trip to Castel del Monte, a UNESCO site worth a visit and off most people's radar; it was surprisingly empty and quite enjoyable. We are sorry we missed the Basilica di San Nicola, where St. Nicholas of Myra (yes, the basis of Santa) is buried. We left Rome early in the day, visited the UNESCO site, and then went over to the ferry terminal in the late afternoon. We had several hours there between our check in and our departure, and this was a fascinating experience for us! A parking lot full of cars from all over Europe of people traveling for all reasons, almost no food options (thank goodness we had stopped at a grocery store), locals selling cheap junk and even fishing illegally behind the check in area, and the anticipatory energy of the place was amazing.

We spent the night on the ferry over to Dubrovnik, which we very much enjoyed--night time on the Adriatic with fellow travelers (including lots of Italians and Croatians and very few American tourists) was amazing, and paying for the room was worth it!

More in the next post on Croatia, which will probably most appeal to your style of travel.

Our mistake in Dubrovnik was not booking in the old town. Here again the city was crowded during the day, and doing more in the early and late parts of the day would have been advantageous. Furthermore, we did go swimming below the city walls, and having a hotel with a better location would have allowed us to shower afterwards before dinner. But yes, go swimming. Wander early. Wander late. Swim in the middle of the day.

We did not go to, say, Split. We didn't have the time. But we would have loved to have seen more cities in Croatia. All of them are small cities, so they would likely work for you. And so would many places that people don't consider; for example, who has heard of Podgora? But aside from being smaller, it has most of what places like Split do in terms of architecture.

We did head over to the Plitvice Lakes, and I cannot say enough good things about this, especially for what sounds like your style of travel. Furthermore, this is perhaps the only place in the world where we would recommend a specific place to stay. House Izvor is HANDS DOWN one of the coolest places to blend tourism and local experiences. The owner, Tomislav, is just a neat guy, and he built the place. He said he used to drive by construction sites and think to himself, "if drunk Bosnians can build a house, so can I." So he did. If you want a beer, wander into the woods with him and get a cold one out of the spring, where he chills the cans. He also catches fish and puts them in there; if you have him cook you a meal (and we recommend this!) and order fish, he walks back into the woods with a net, gets the fish out of the spring, and cooks it for you on the outdoor grill. If you can stay in the little cabin instead of the main house, do so. He was out running an errand when we arrived, so we sat the on the little swing overlooking the woods and read a book in the sunshine. He has bikes you can rent and complained about the wild pigs coming through and rooting up the gardens. You can tour the lakes or go hiking or . . . .

Anyway, tons out there about more general--booking flights, changing money, etc.--and more specific information--opening times of certain museums--but there you have our highs and a few takeaways from our Italy/Croatia trip.

Pre planning - in addition to what others have said:

Pinterest boards
Dropped pins in Google Maps

These will get you an idea of what you want to do and how to maybe avoid sitting on a train to go see one thing, for example.

Technology:

Start thinking about phones, are you with a carrier that gives you free or cheap service (T mobile, ty), or is your phone(s) unlocked so you can get a SIM in the EU? or do you want to be entirely off grid (not recommended, but ymmv).

I'm sure I'm forgetting other things but have fun!

In my later years, when no longer traveling with child, I took an entirely different approach to ordering my list of places. Because we don't know, particularly health-wise, what the future will bring, I ordered my priority list based on difficulty. I suggest doing the most difficult locations first, based on difficulty once there or difficulty getting to the place. The older you get, often the less one can do.

I'd also spend the next two years upping your mileage because 2-6 miles per day is pretty low in the scheme of travel. IMO Yes, overtime, your mileage might become less, so start high!

Kathy, the suggestion to get Rick's "Europe through the Back Door" is an excellent one; it's a great place to start, especially since you are starting to plan so early.

Do be sure you have the recent edition, though; we bought a copy years ago and loved it, but the newer version is much more relevant to today's travel. I mention this because a library might have an older version. The current edition (2022) is on sale now on this website, but it looks like there's a new edition coming out in a couple of months! I'd wait, if I were you. Here's the info:

https://store.ricksteves.com/shop/p/europe-through-the-back-door

Hi Kathy, welcome to the forum. Plenty of wise advise given already, just a few thoughts from me. Definitely get your passport process going now - you'll need original birth certificates, so if you don't have those you will need to order certified copies that meet the US State Department criteria (that info is on the webpage). Once you get that done, have photos taken, fill out the forms, then you can make an in-person appointment at your local passport acceptance location. My post office only schedules appointments up to 4 weeks out, and they're booked up pretty fast.

I admire that you want to specifically save up for your trip. I'd suggest setting up a separate savings account for your travel fun money so you can watch it grow. I've done this to stash my credit card's cash back rewards - it doesn't seem like much at first but suddenly there's a good chunk of money in there. It also makes it less tempting to raid the account when you know it's for a stated purpose.

I have also traveled to places with family roots, but not my first overseas trip (it was my seventh). I had not done much work ahead of time other than to find the names of towns my family came from. In hindsight, I wish I had done the research so I could have accessed church records or actually contacted distant family members. But I was able to drive through some pretty rural areas and see a cemetery with a lot of people with my unusual last name, however they weren't exactly talking :)

As a fellow PNW-er, I also agree with an earlier comments about visiting places that offer uniqueness from home. I remember my Texas tourmates on a RS tour of Ireland overwhelmed by all the green...which wasn't particularly impressive to me (though many other things were). For me, the richness of historic buildings, busy cities, stunning artwork, and unique food experiences are things I seek out that I can't find at home. And often I do return and immediately head out to get my nature and forest fix - lucky to have that option.

And last, the people in this forum are quite helpful, especially when you ask questions that have enough details. Less "where should I go in Croatia?" and more "here's our specific draft itinerary for 7 days, 6 nights in Croatia, with a focus on our interests of natural areas and hiking..." People won't be shy about asking follow up questions, but the more information you can provide up front the better advice we can give.

The dreaming and planning are a lot of fun. And just know, you will make mistakes, and that will be part of the learning and growing - there is no one right way to travel. I have been a lot of places but still learning something new every trip. Don't put too much pressure on yourself to do it perfectly the first time, it's all part of the journey. Good luck!

So much good advice above! And a lot to take in all at once.

I started with the idea of suggesting you limit yourself to 2 of your chosen countries for this “first” trip (implying that there will be others). But I see that by this point you have come to that conclusion yourself. With your preferred time frame of May-June or September-October, London plus Croatia is a good choice—-you don’t want to deal with the heat and crowds in Croatia at mid-summer. And May and September are our favorite times in London, a place we include almost every trip (easy to do because we fly British Airways with miles).

We have not been to Croatia (we are too much in love with Switzerland, Italy, and the UK to explore there), but friends and family members have, and loved it. Our son and his wife honeymooned there in May 2008, and found it very uncrowded at that time. I am sure that aspect has changed. Everyone we know recommends renting a car for Croatia. But for the UK, I recommend sticking with trains and, where necessary, local buses. We found driving on the left so stressful in New Zealand that we swore it off for good.

Since you express a wishful thought of flying in First Class, and someone above suggested getting a “travel card” (credit card that earns frequent flyer miles or other points), I will address that. We have flown internationally in both First and Business Class, and find very little increased benefit for First, and a lot of extra cost. But Business Class is great.

Business Class planes on most airlines have lay-flat seats, which is the main goal for us. The nicer food, more space, and quieter cabin are additional perks, especially appreciated on the eastbound overnight flight. As I mentioned above, we fly British Airways with our miles, booking nearly a year in advance to get the highly-coveted Business Class seats (BA releases 2-4 award seats in that class on every flight, and at high season they are usually booked up the day of release).

In order to earn enough miles and use them, you must learn to “game the system”. This is true of every frequent flyer program, and I hope other people will step up with the ins and outs of others airline programs, but I will describe how we manage to get one and sometimes two Europe trips a year with our British Airways miles.

For starters, I will caution that the BA award seats are not “free”; they carry fairly high supplemental charges that put many people off this airline. I would never recommend using them for travel in Economy for this reason. But at our age (l70’s) and with my husband’s back issues, those lay-flat seats are pretty much essential to keep the flight from becoming an ordeal. And we arrive refreshed, rather than tired and jet-lagged, so we are ready to hit the ground running on arrival. So we feel it is worth it to pay what is essentially the cost of Economy seats to fly in Business Class.

A brief summary on how to get the miles: join the mileage program and apply for their Visa credit card (a Chase card). You will get a bonus of 75,000 Avios (their word for points) if you spend $5000 on the card in the first 3 months. Together with the 5000 or more Avios you will earn with that spend, that is at least 80,000 miles. Keep using the card for major expenses, and if your spending reaches $30,000 in 12 months you get a 2-4-1 Companion Voucher that enables you to book 2 round-trip tickets in Business Class for the Avios cost of one trip. (The $$$ cost is not halved). Together with the 30,000 Avios you will earn with that spend, that is 110,000 miles—-almost the 130,000 Avios needed to book an off-peak RT to London, with $2100 in supplemental fees (we just did this so I know exactly what it takes). I did warn you it is not free, but $2100 is not bad for 2 people to fly RT to London in Business Class.

I will stop here and let others describe their own tips and tricks for getting Business Class to Europe.

Lola, we recently booked May tickets with BA, doing exactly as you mention here. I think we paid 990 each plus miles for Business Class. Unfortunately, the seats weren't available for the return flight, so we're in premium economy.

The only thing about the points game is to choose a carrier that best serves your travel interests. Oh, and I guess have a lifestyle that is consistent with $30k in credit card purchases a year. But great advice. Would love to hear how to get the most benefit out of Delta's program. Thank you.

"Always pack half of your stuff in his bag, and half of his stuff in your bag... Many will say wait until in Europe to get local currency...We feel more comfortable having one or two hundred of the local money in hand when arriving. ATMs do malfunction from time to time."

These are fantastic ideas. Thank you @TC !

My first UK-based relative was apparently from Surrey and came across the Atlantic in the pre-colonial days settling in Massachusetts, but no, no specific plans to do hardcore genealogy research on these trips. Just more of the idea that we will be in the same areas as our ancestors. And in the case of Croatia, our living relative(s) will be a great connection (technically she is my husband’s second cousin, or something like that).

I discovered the RS Podcast too, so that's a wealth of information I'll include in my research methods.

@CL - yes, thanks for those tips - living in central WA, where we have a much more dry/arid/desert-ish surround - I do still appreciate some greenery, but excellent points! And thankfully we are rather disciplined money managers, hence why we can plan on paying cash for a big trip like this. We're not uber perfectionist about most things in life. But we are big planners for all things. Our typically approach is research and plan A LOT, then maintain a much more flexible execution of the plan.

Everyone who gave tips about the credit card/mileage plans - thank you! We currently only have the Costco Visa and Alaska Airlines miles card, but have not yet looked into airlines focusing more on flights to Europe. Will for sure do that.

@Jean, very kind of you to invite me to your travel group in Coeur d’Alene - what a great resource!

@CanAmCherie I agree and plan to invest in various travel research resources. I’m a bit of a book fiend, so easy for me to do that :)

@HowllinMad - The Plitvice Lakes area is on our “must see” list, but we’ll likely skip Dubrovnik this first trip and save that as part of a future southern Italy/Croatia trip. This first trip we are leaning towards staying in the northern half of Croatia - our cousin lives outside Zagreb and there is family stuff (e.g., old homestead, family burial plots, etc) in Split and Ledenice.

@skunklet1771 - thanks for the cell phone advice. Had not really given that much thought yet but we will for sure confirm our cell phone plan will work for communication during our trip.

@Wray - thanks, we will certainly give that some consideration. My partner has a bigger training-hill-to-climb than I do, so we will need to see how ready he is for more than 6 miles of walking a day when we get closer to the actual trip. Recently our family did 3 days at Disneyland which added up to 11-12 miles on Day 1, 7 miles on Day 2, and 5 miles on Day 3. and we all did fine, but that was just a 3 day trip, not 3 weeks. We will certainly sprinkle in light days on trains/busses/ferries mixed in with heavier walking days.

@Jane - yes, we are pre-ordering the 2024 edition of Europe through the Back Door!

@Lola - yes we will consider getting more miles-specific credits cards, as we currently buy most things on a card when able and pay the balances monthly to avoid interest charges. We’ve done this for many years. Switzerland does look amazing and it's on our “someday” list for sure. I think with our work schedules and the weather here at home and over there, etc, we are leaning towards making this a May/June trip when the days are longer and the flowers are out. Thinking initially of starting in London, then train to northern Italy/Croatia, then home, but maybe a spring trip would lend itself to do things in the reverse. Start in Croatia in May, end in London-area in June. But we’ll see!

I need to do more studying regarding airline miles, seat class categories and features, train schedules, and a ton of other stuff. I’m so glad to have found all of you and look forward to more exchanges in the coming months/years. Happy Holidays!

We want to wait a few years bc:
1) we like to save up so we can avoid debt/pay cash,
2) we like to learn as much as possible so we can avoid/minimize mistakes, and
3) we are not sure we will take the kids with us or not. We are leaning towards this just being a trip for the two of us - something we have never done. Kids could take care of the house/pets, etc. while we are gone. Lastly, being very green travelers - and I know this probably sounds silly given that I am a fully-functioning adult (I swear!) - I need to psychologically prepare for this being the furtherest/longest air travel experience, and longest time away from home.

You're definitely not alone in finding the whole concept a lot to process!!! The first time we traveled overseas, we went to England and Scotland...and it was daunting before. But so, so awesome while we were there and after! I felt like taking the leap out of our home country was so scary, especially the long flight. I was pleasantly surprised that is was 1000 times easier than anticipated. The flight was like a longer version of across the US...and nope, I still don't like flying but getting to go some truly fantastic places makes it worth the anxiety. The excitement of actually going to Europe was enough to push through those last minute doubts. Yup, we got lost....and made a ton of mistakes...picked up a car in central London and accidentally got into a bus only section while trying to figure out driving on the "wrong side" in a stick shift (but you can rent automatics if you decide to go the rental car route...no worries!)...stayed in a truly awful hostel one night...ended up on a one lane forest track in Wales in the snow...and had the best time. It really is okay. It's not nearly as complicated as we had feared. We still laugh about some of the crazy memories...especially trying to figure out driving in central London. :-)

We've since gone back a couple of times, once with the kids. It is great to travel with them! And I also find it a bit more stressful because I feel so responsible for their welfare and safety that I'm always a bit more on guard. We're currently planning a couple...or more trips where we'll take them but I'm definitely more careful about having solid housing, back-up plans. Our kids are still school age and we live in teeny-tiny town, Midwest so that makes a difference because they're not used to cities etc. My point...traveling with and without the kids are both awesome and you may plan very differently based on that.

My family has liked the Rough Guides. We've only used the older versions (early 2000s) and I've heard the newer ones have more pictures/less information. We didn't especially use them for food or housing but loved the tips on off-the-beaten-path sites. Stone circles and ruins that were just out in the country-side. This may have changed but we had a great time driving around just exploring these free-type sites and then wandering in some towns that were suggested. We're using the RS guides and the forum to find housing (because...kids...must have plans...). YMMV. We just ordered old versions of the Rough Guides for Greece and Italy for about $5 each. It kept our budget low doing mostly "free" sightseeing and we don't feel like we missed out by skipping a lot of the major "must-see" sights.

Enjoy the planning and dreams!!!!

As you are thinking of going from London to Italy and Croatia by train, here is how to do it-

London to Italy (in a day)- https://www.seat61.com/Italy.htm

Italy to Croatia (scroll down, includes London to Croatia direct)-
https://www.seat61.com/international-trains/trains-from-Zagreb.htm#Zagreb-Venice
https://www.seat61.com/Croatia.htm

The direct route from Paris to Italy is closed to (hopefully) Summer 2024 by a landslide. So the all rail route currently is via Switzerland, which only adds around 90 minutes to the journey times.

I can't tell from your questions and responses whether or not you've visited the online resources right here on the RS website or not. If so, great! If not, and beyond what others have mentioned or linked, I'm linking them below.

Travel Tips. Here you'll find info on the most important aspects of planning any trip to Europe. Each section is important for the information it provides, the links to other sources that are there and for helping y'all to recognize things you didn't know you needed to know: https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-tips.

Explore Europe. This is the section on various countries and what to see in them. A lot of the same mechanics apply here: https://www.ricksteves.com/europe.

Sometimes new travelers go right to the Destinations specific forums to select a country and miss some of the other ones related to the other aspects of European travel. Those are under Tips & Trip Reports. There you can select categories both similar to and different from those under Travel Tips.

You're very smart to start your planning early. And I think you're very lucky to probably be flying from and back to Seattle. I've done that many times. I much prefer the nonstop flight path between Seattle and Europe to any other.

Developing a workable itinerary makes or breaks a trip. Maybe our experience will be helpful. Once we've selected a country to visit, we borrow from our library all the different guide books for that country. Each family member reads/scans through the books and makes a list of specific destinations that seem interesting. After everyone's list is completed, we compare lists. It helps to have the internet to look at maps and travel times between possible destinations. Fortunately, we all agree that we'd rather invest time and really learn about and enjoy a destination than do quick visits. Typically some proposed stops are crossed off lists as too inconvenient or of interest to only one person. Soon, we see sites that seem to cluster together and would make a good home base for two or more nights. Next we put those home bases into some sort of logical order based on transportation. Driving times are almost always longer than maps suggest. If using public transportation, we check train schedules. We keep in mind which cities have air travel to and from the US. We always end our itinerary in a location that allows easy access to our flight home (and we never spend our last night staying in an airport hotel). At that point we almost have an itinerary. We research holidays and special events at our proposed destinations and check air fares. Finally, even though at this point we are very experienced travelers, we still like to get feedback on our itinerary from people who have recently visited that country.

Happy Christmas/Holidays all,

@isn31c thanks so much, those train links are great. We are VERY interested in train travel and avoiding driving ourselves anywhere while we're in Europe.

@Lo - yes, I have been doing some reading on RS tips, watching the shows, listening to his podcast, and some other travel podcasts. So much to learn! I have also checked out numerous travel guidebooks from my local library and already realized what I like and don't like in a guidebook - e.g., the RS Best of Europe is already over my head, so I'll look for a more entry-level book for the start. But I love his book on London and the Fromer's on England. I'm planning to buy the RS Europe through the Backdoor when it's released at the end of Jan 2024. And having never flown farther than Hawaii from Seattle, I'll have to take your word for it on the SEA flights to Europe being good ones. I'm hoping so!

@Anita - yes I will for sure get some input on the itinerary planning, thanks for that idea!

Cheers.