Thoughts--recline or not?

Absolutely my right to recline (I do try and be polite about it though),

If the seats recline, yep I have that right and so does the person in front of me.

I'm not sure I consider it a "right", but on a long flight, if my seat reclines, I'm going to recline at least a little bit.

I can see putting it up during meals. I'd put it up temporarily to help out the passenger behind me - but only temporarily.

I never recline my seat. I don't ever sleep, so this is fine with me.

I would say it would make a difference if you're on a 2 hour domestic flight during the middle of the day, versus a 12+ hours overnight flight at night. IMHO, in the first situation it is thoughtless of you to exercise your right to recline your seat to the max. In the second situation it is reasonable to do so since attempts at sleep are expected.

Kent, what about when you have 1 long haul plus 1 or 2 short hauls to get to your final destination? I would never consider it "thoughtless", but like I said - I do try and be polite about it. There have definitely been and will be times when I am completely exhausted on a short haul. I have also seen many people use their laptops etc. successfully with the person in front of them reclined.

I have two comments. Why even start this question? It will go nowhere. But more importantly should not some of this discussion be directed to the airlines who have allowed this situation to develop by constantly removing the space between the seats. Recently read an article that a new airline seat has been developed and awaiting approval for FAA. The seat is reported to be more comfortable, better in a crash and a couple inches thinner. Terrific I thought. We might get more more but then I read the comments from the airline executive being interviewed who was excited about the new seat between he get more passengers in the same space.

I can remember a time (most of you probably cannot) when the person sitting in the window seat could slide out if the other two passengers turned their legs slightly to the side. And when the reclining seat actually reclined to a comfortable angle. And we are partly responsible since we continue to demand that cheap ticket.

The air lines will continue to want to pack more people in a given space with little concern for comfort other than the bottom line.

I am coming to the position that the FAA ought to certified a max passenger load or min passenger space for each model of plane. That would take away the incentive for air lines to add passengers and put all air lines on equal footing when comes to passenger loads.

I was asked a question above: my answer is to attempt to apply the Golden Rule to your actions.

I recline. I put seat up at meal times.

On flights less them 3 hours I don't think it !matters as a much.

"the FAA ought to certified a ... min passenger space for each model of plane."

I understand that the European version of the FAA is considering exactly that, and that it will apply to any airline's planes flying into European airports as well as intra-Europe flights.

The flight safety card shows people in the crash position, with there head down, something you can't do today with the seat spacing. I'd laugh if it weren't so pathetic.

I agree completely with Brad in Gainesville.

I wish flight attendants would make an announcement about returning one's seat to an upright position during meal service, in the same way they make the announcement about closing the window shade.

And, yeah, I laugh at the video that shows passengers putting their heads down for an emergency landing. I always wonder just how in the heck I'm supposed to do that without dislocating my neck first.

Well, I hope I don't wind up behind the guy that wrote THIS article! He's taking it seriously, and will expect compensation if asked to not recline. As I read Kent's first comment it occurred to me that it may be up to all of us to work with each other-this means being considerate-since the airlines are behind the curve on this. We have, of course demanded "this" by insisting on cheaper everything.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/28/upshot/dont-want-me-to-recline-my-airline-seat-you-can-pay-me.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpSumSmallMedia&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0&abt=0002&abg=1

This is a tough one and I think under certain circumstances it's fine to recline. But I have a special circumstance because my husband is 6'6" and he literally cannot sit in his seat if the person in front of him reclines. He usually says something to the person in front of him before takeoff, asking them not to recline. We're can't afford first class and even to upgrade to an exit or bulkhead row now costs more. One time he asked if he could sit in the exit row since there was an empty seat and the flight attendant said no, because people paid extra for it.

Well, except for one, interesting replies. I can't sleep on planes, so I am a non-recliner. I'm a fairly big guy, but still have room between my knees and the seat....when the recline happens, that room disappears. I usually tolerate it pretty well except when I was in the back row, had minimal room anyway and couldn't recline.... wouldn't you know the guy in front of me reclined the second he could and never moved forward. Interesting to see if airlines or legislation will do anything about this issue. As I said when posting, in some of the articles about the aforementioned incident there were "how rude to not let the person recline" people and those who replied "great, glad the guy stuck up for his meager space" people. In the blurb I saw on TV the reporter and weatherman discussed it a bit... the reporter was clearly in the "OK to recline" camp while the weatherman was in the "reclining is evil" group. ps: funny article about the guy who wants to be paid to not recline.

I always recline. The seats are too uncomfortable to tolerate otherwise. I am not sure I would fly an airline with seats that did not recline. I am very sorry for the person behind me, but if it bothers them that much, they are to free to purchase a 1st class ticket.

Survey after survey has shown that tall people get paid more than short people. Why not spend some of this extra money for a seat you can fit in without inconveniencing those around you? We expect a heavy person, who doesn't get paid more, to spend money for two seats or for 1st class. Why should tall people be any different.

Don't blame the consumer to purchasing the lowest fare; blame the airlines for cramping the passengers, cutting corners, adding hidden extras, all to get a perceived price advantage over their competitors. Let's go back to regulation. Fares were higher then, but seats were more comfortable, we got meals, bags were included, etc.

In interest of full disclosure -- Lee is short !!

Lee said is well...if you are tall maybe you should pay for premium economy or exit seat. The person in front of you has the option to recline and should not feel bad about doing it. I don't think fares are cheaper in this decade than the last....but that's another story.

Funny topic. I pretty much always recline. And I expect the same of the other person in front of me.

I don't think it is necessary to bring seat up during meals. It is still possible to eat...and some people would be sleeping (many on long flights). I prefer the announcement to be kept to a minimum...even if I don't sleep much or at all on some flights.
I'm not super confortable on most 11-12 hours or more flights...but I've learned to live with it...and won't spend money on anything else than economy class....rather keep my money other things. All about priorities.

IMO on an overnight flight, such as to Europe, you should expect that the passenger in front will recline for sleeping or relaxation during the "sleeping hours."

I don't think it is necessary to bring seat up during meals.

We have recently been on planes where the tray table could not be lowered if the seat was reclined. I wish there was someplace to get information on the declining space between seats. Would be interesting to see it a chart over time.

@Frank You should share with us on what flight/airline/type of plane you could not lower your tray if the seat in front was reclined. Thanks.

"In interest of full disclosure -- Lee is short !!"

No, I am efficiently sized for air travel. It's others that are taller. If everyone was my height, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Of course the airlines are run for the benefit of shareholders. Every company is. If they don't make enough money, they go out of business. How many of you have sold a mutual fund because it wasn't performing well, or complained when the return on your 401(k) wasn't as good as you would like? Most people dislike poor investment performance, and that's why companies try to make money. The smart ones realize they can do it by treating their customers well. But I have some sympathy with the airlines. The majority of people do everything they can to buy the cheapest ticket they can find. I can't think of any other product where people go to such great lengths to get the cheapest price. When you do this, you're telling the airlines that the main or only thing you care about is price. So don't expect them to focus on service or food or roominess.

No I don't work for an airline. And I complain about flying all the time - it's very unpleasant. The way they price their flights is crazy. But I understand why they cram in as many people as they can.

Lee,
Now we all know why you can travel with such small, efficient luggage :)

I pay for the extra 4-6 inches (or exit row) anytime I can on the over-the-ocean flights. And, I absolutely HATE it when someone reclines during meals (or before the meal trays are collected), especially when they do it with a sudden wham!!!

If someone squashes my legs when reclining...or if they are so far back that it is impossible to get up to leave for the restroom, I will kindly wake them or tell them very kindly that my knees are totally squashed. I have usually had someone kindly correct the situation, but I'm sure it is a matter of time before I encounter the total jerk.

The WORST offense is when someone (often overweight) decides to grab the back of my seat (which is not reclined) to hoist themselves up out of their seat, then lets it go with a big fling. I then give the kind stare.....with the kind what-the-heck look. If I am lucky they then don't repeat the offense.

If I wasn't so frugal, oh how I would love to fly business class all the time....at least on the overseas sections!!!!

@Lee and @Teresa - your comments about the safety brochures cracked me up! I think about that too - how much leg room the cartoon people have, and how big their seats are! They must be in first class...

I recline my seat maybe halfway, always after the evening meal, during transatlantic flights and never on domestic flights. I'm only 5 feet tall but the distance between the seats is so small now that it's giving even me trouble. Part of the problem is only being able to sit in one position. You can't cross your legs or sit on one ankle; the only position change is standing up.

@Margaret - I hate it when the person behind me grabs my seatback to stand up and pulls my hair! I hold the back of the seat in front of me, but I'm careful where I put my hands.

The seats of now definitely do not match up with the planes of old. My son (3.5 years old) was so excited to be in a window seat on our recent flight to Vermont. He was then highly disappointed when he could not even look out of his window because it no longer lined up with the seat because of the seats being moved to fit more in. He was very confused as to why the seats did not match up with the windows. I hope my answer of the airlines having moved the seats in the interest of the bottom line (of course in a developmentally appropriate language) was the correct one since that was the only reason I could think of.

My husband was at DIA on his way home from Fargo to SFO. He was actually at the gate when the inbound flight with the above incident (now from Chicago) arrived as it was heading to SFO. He said there were a handful of TSA people there to interview passengers that witnessed the "incident".

The issue of "seat reclining" is always a source of minor annoyance for me, especially on the long flights to Europe. I often seem to get an "it's my right to recline" passenger in front of me that slams the seat back with the speed of an ejection seat in a fighter jet. Thankfully they usually agree to put the seat up at meal times, so that I can use my tray. I tend to recline my seat only about half way when I want to sleep, and do it slowly in case the person behind is using the tray.

After the meal is served and the lights are turned down, I often get up for a walk and visit with the F.A.'s and other passengers in the galley. That provides a bit of a respite from sitting in a cramped seat. I don't mind paying for "Premium Economy" where it's available, which provides a bit more room. Some of the budget airlines I've used in Europe have non-reclining seats, and I don't find that to be too much of an inconvenience for short flights.

I never recline my seat. I can sleep anywhere, in any seat. I pay for economy comfort any time I can get it and prefer bulkhead if available, although on one flight it took three of us to figure out how to raise the media screen (one was a flight attendant).

Years ago I got asked not to recline by the passenger behind me as "I am tall" I was not happy and when I got up to go the restroom and saw he was happily shoved all the way back, I did the same thing. He tapped my seat and said "I asked you not to recline" I smiled and said "since you did I thought it was OK too do so" and left my seat back LOL!

After that I decided that I would recline. Sorry but my height is not relevant, nor is your height really a relevant issue for anyone but you.

Now on domestic and daylight flights I rarely bother to recline all the way back, I just don't need to. After dinner on an overnight, yes it goes back.

In all the comments about reclining or not on this board--not just this thread--not much is said about how much reclining is appropriate.

It seems to me that reclining just the width of the seat back would leave the person behind you with enough room to use the tray if they want/need to use it. It's possible some more reclining would also not bother the person behind too much.

I do agree that it's the correct thing to do to return to upright for meal service. Even if you aren't going to have it. The person behind you might.

And at no time should reclining be done without at least mentioning it to the person behind. Although the width of the seat amount could be safe without it. Mostly. But kindness to fellow passengers helps make the travel experience good for both of you.

Having a physical problem (back pain or something that makes sitting upright extremely painful) should always be explained to the person behind.

The extreme narrowness of the space between rows does make it more difficult for us "short stuffs" (it takes inch and a half heels to bring me to the five foot level).

@Margeret,

I'm only 5% shorter than the average American adult male (4% taller than the average female). Although a little overweight, I'm not obese, which saves on clothes weight more than does height and certainly makes airline seats roomier.

Packing light is more the number of articles of clothing taken rather than the size.

For my own preference and the convenience of others, I don't recline my seat until the meal service is finished and the person behind me is often already reclined. Luckily, legroom is not my issue.

Hi,

Given the choice as you put it to recline or not on a 10.5 hr transatlantic flight, I recline once I've taken off, am airborne and the flight is underway. I don't ask for permission, only recline somewhat, never the max. (that's why I don't ask for persmission since reclining is my right too) but just enough so that it helps me to fall asleep quickly after the meal. I've been in a few times where the guy in front reclines all the way, ie, no consideration. True, it cramps me a bit and is basically unpleasant but then I count on my ability to fall asleep faster and stay asleep which passes the time faster until about an hour before reaching the destination.

The airlines created the problem by cramming additional seats into space that was not designed to accommodate them. They can help fix the problem, or at least reduce it, by reducing the amount of slope when seats lean back

So you fix the problem of a few people not being able to see their computer screens easily by making it uncomfortable for everyone.

Lee, are you referring to the laptop screen or the monitor on the back of the seat? The real fix would be for the airlines to take out some of the seats they added, but that ain't gonna happen.

So, which camp are you in...... yes, it is my right to recline or no, I don't have much room anyway.

I'm in the "No, I don't have much room anyway" camp.

I'm in the "if you want more room, pay for a seat with more room, don't take it from me" camp.

And, Roy, as I said earlier, it's the laptop screen. With the seat reclined and the tray forward, the angle between the seat back and the horizontal tray does not allow room to completely open the laptop. That situation happens in either economy or economy plus. It's a function of the seat, not the leg room.

The real fix would be honesty in advertising. Make the airlines give, in addition to the final price, the price divided by the inches of seat pitch, like grocery stores show $/lb. Then consumers could see what they are really getting for their money.

I've never had a seat that reclined very far back. When I fly within the US I pretty much use Southwest and their seats barely recline at all. I've flown mostly on AA and BA to Europe and have never felt like the reclining seat in front of me was intrusive. I would expect everyone to want to recline on a long haul flight.

Nowhere else are you allowed to make modifications to the plane. You can't disable the smoke detector in the lavatory. You can't open a window. "Excuse me, I'd like to take some aluminum panels off the wing to save weight". "Terrorism? No, I just thought we needed a little fresh air, so I blew a whole in the side of the plane".

I don't recline much because I cannot sleep on the plane anyway. Most of the time, I'm sitting upright reading or listening to music. If I want to recline an inch or two, I'll do it, then in a few minutes, recline a couple of more inches.
Yes, I have the right to recline as much as I want to. I paid for my ticket, and that space behind me is mine to use. But I also am responsible for making sure that I don't act like a jerk while doing so.

If the person sitting behind me is reclined, I have no qualms about reclining too.

Why can't we all get along?
No one is comfortable, even when reclined.
So why make the person behind more uncomfortable?
Just go part-way you get some relief, they are not squeezed.

Reminds me of a horrible flight a couple years back. Person in front of me was, well, overweight, not only fully reclined (after meal service, of course) for the long crossing (PHL-Zurich) but also flounced all over her seat. And was deaf to all protests. Me, I could not drop even a little in consideration for the person behind me, who was up against the bulkhead and could not move their seat at all. We were still fairly new at this so it did not occur to me to ask the FA for assistance.

If the guy in front has slammed his chair into max recline position obviously cutting into my space and stays that way throughout the flight, then I have no compunctions in disturbing him, such as pulling on his chair when I get up, etc. like acting like a bull in a china shop.

So, if the seat in front of you is fully reclined, how do you get up without touching that seat? Especially if the person next to you has hogged the armrest? I have tried slithering out but it doesn't work very well. That's why I pay for economy comfort. Still dreading the next flight.

Fred, my wife and I were all over her seatback every time we moved. She was oblivious, never said a word or looked back.

Had similar last month on Lufthansa. Guy in front of my wife dropped his seat into her lap, she asked him, he "politely" advised her that "this is the way it's designed" and that was that. As my wife tried to reason with him, HE got the FA and made her look like the villain. FA was completely intimidated by him and did nothing. So the "Ugly American" strikes at Americans, too.

I recline the minimal amount to make my seat more comfortable and only after the meal is served and trash collected. It is just too uncomfortable to sit bolt upright for an 8 or so hour flight. I do check behind me before I recline.

Crazy situation involving a Miami to Paris flight.

www.sfgate.com/news/texas/article/Trans-Atlantic-flight-directed-to-Boston-5718170.php

Are there imaginary airplanes out there or ones that I've never seen?

Tables and seats move independently of each other. A reclined seat would only hinder somebody from doing something like bending over to tie his shoe.

I've been behind people several times who recline their seat at the first opportunity, then sit upright (not against their seatback) for a good portion of the flight. Strange, but it's their seat. If they want to play with the overhead light switch, too, then fine - just don't hijack the plane and we'll all get off at our destination.

Being not so tall some airlines have those horribly uncomfortable seat backs that are contoured forward at the top - hits me so I sit with my chin down to chest. :( I frequently recline a bit in those and then sit up without my head resting on the seat back.

For domestic flights I always book the premium seats - I can't usually book the exit rows or bulkheads which totally alleviates the recline issue because I almost always have my cat with me. Unfortunately not all FA's will get involved although I have seen some who have no problem requesting a passenger stop reclining so the person behind them can eat.

Our last European trip we cruised over and flew back - I was able to score 1st class seats home with saver miles - I am now broken - not sure if I can ever fly across in coach again!

If you have the time - cruising one or both directions is a fabulously relaxing way to go!

We do all have to get along! Being on a plane together is even more serious than being in the same boat. I've been in some unpleasant situations during flights. After I make a polite request, whatever the result I let it go. I have considered this knee saver thing and have concluded that using knee savers is wrong. We are not renting office space so we can use our laptops. We are renting a seat and should be allowed to be comfortable. The seats should be set to recline only a couple of inches. Also, everyone should respect everyone else on the flight......and in the world. That should settle everything!

@ Larry. Got it. Haven't we all been in that situation where the person in front is not only totally obvious but also resistant displaying a total lack of consideration? I only get up on the average during a 10-11 hr transatlantic flight twice. When I do faced with this yoyo in front not willing to cooperate, I pull on his seat (first of all, you can't help it to get out regardless of efforts to slither your way out). It's not my problem if I jostle him out of his sleep.

I thought this would be in reference to Economy Premium seating. After doing some research this is my conclusion.

When airplanes set up Economy Premium class, fliers were given 4 - 5 inches of extra foot room & extra reclining space.
Doesn't the extra reclining room negate the extra foot room for tall people sitting behind a full recliner? (Did I get it right?)

My travel agent books Economy class for the group tours I go on. The problem I had on my last flight was the computer on the back of my headrest was not responding to "touch" & the flier behind me was constantly punching the screen. I brought it to the attention of the FA who rebooted that computer.

As to the poll I try to abide by the Golden Rule. I will recline to the extent it does not interfere with the person behind me. I ask before how far & check after to be sure they are comfortable.

My 2-cents worth.

A lot of very interesting answers. The one that gets me though is the pulling on the seat back... I never do that. I use my arms to push myself up using the armrests. I think it's unbelievably rude to use the seat back in front of me. That to me, is far worse than reclining your seat all the way.

I recline my seat, with consideration.

People pulling on the back of seats to get up are doing it just to be jerks ! Where is the seat back to pull up on when they get out of chairs are home? Maybe hand holds need to be installed along with the lights. Why is it some difficult to just slide out of the seat. Isn't like you can stand up and crawl over your seat mates. They have to move for you to get out.

Does anyone else here feel claustrophobic after reading this thread? Those Queen Mary 2 crossings NY to England and back are very tempting! There's a crossing from New York to Hamburg also.

I can slither across to the aisle, but if the aisle seat in front of me is reclined to the max, and if the armrest on the aisle does not go up out of the way, with my bad knees it is practically impossible for me to get out into the aisle without steadying myself somehow because of the angle I have to assume to get under the reclined seat and over the armrest. There is very little room for my legs to fit between the back of the reclined seat and the front edge of the seat and armrest. I do my best, but sometimes I have to use the back of the reclined seat to keep from falling. If the aisle armrest goes up, I can turn my body toward the aisle and get out without any problem.

I almost never recline my seat because it is far more uncomfortable on my back and knees than it is to keep it straight up. I guess I must be a few sigmas off the mean. I recently rode in a plane that had new seats without a lot of padding but with a lot of good support, especially for the lumbar region of my back. It was much more comfortable than the old, broken down, not-so-well-padded-anymore seats on most planes. I have never liked soft chairs or sofas or car seats. They simply are not comfortable to me.

Without all that extra padding, there was also much more space between my seat and the back of the seat in front of me. However, I'm not naive enough to think that will last. I'm sure some clever "suit" will insure that more seats will be added by smushing up that space in the future.

Does anyone else here feel claustrophobic after reading this thread?

We're flying in a few days, this is the dread thread! But everything will be fine once we are there. In France. Eating. Drinking. Sleeping. Repeat.

And here are some more interesting takes on what the NY Times is calling the new Culture War. Here's a link to the economic solution....And the link to the responses. And one more on the Defense of the Knee Defender.

Pam

As Frank said in another thread (and I agree with)... "you cannot impose your seat "standards" on someone else. The seats were designed to recline for a reason and you should not be made to feel guilty if you use the feature."

If someone needs more room for whatever reason, it is up to them to buy a seat that will accommodate them. It is not the responsibility of the stranger sitting in front of you.

Interesting array of responses. I've been clobbered in the head by more than one reclining seat on various flights as I was reaching under the seat in front of me. My husband is one of those tall, long legged travelers who can not understand why the person in front of him insists on knee-capping the person behind them. While I understand the need to lower the seat to get some sleep on longer flights (I like to too), it's not a person's absolute right to do so if there is a long legged person behind them. Sorry... physics is at work here. There are only so many seats on an aircraft that allow for the extra leg room, and not everyone has access to them. There's no easy answer here - and clearly a massive difference in opinion by many.

"There are only so many seats on an aircraft that allow for the extra leg room, and not everyone has access to them. "

I've never heard of anyone being denied access to (purchasing) a 1st class seat.

Many people here are admitting that they don't fit into a coach seat unless the person in front is denied their right to be comfortable. That's not their fault, but it's not my fault either, and I shouldn't be penalized because they weren't willing to buy a seat that fits them.

Maybe someday, the airlines will have a "seat sizing" rig, like luggage sizing boxes, simulating the space available in coach with the seat in front reclined, and passengers will have to show that they can fit in the space available or upgrade.

Susan.. actually it is someones right to recline a seat that they have purchased.

When people buy a seat they are entitled to use all the features that function and are included in that seat. The tray table. The sound and entertainment system. The recline function.

My ex hubby was 6'4.. he understood it was his problem. We started buying prem economy seats.. or booking exit row or bulk head seats so that he didn't get squished.
Its not everyone elses problem if one cannot you can't afford the extra 50 plus dollars ( we know it can literally vary from an extra 50 dollar charge to choose a bulk head or exit row seat in the economy section.. to hundreds more for a prem economy seat or thousands more for first class)

Consideration is fine.. but you expect other people to let themselves be uncomfortable for 8=10 hours sitting straight upright so you can be comfy? I agree that during meal time seats should be up.. but after that ..

People will have to book a seat that is comfortable for them, put up with being cramped.

I would be ALOT comfier in first class.. but I can't afford it.. that's my problem.

Interesting - so what now appears to be the rule here is that when you purchase a seat you purchase not only the rights to the space in front of it but the space behind it also. Or does your seat purchase only guarantee you the space behind it?

Larry,, yes.. you purchase a seat and ALL that the seat provides. Airlines often promote that specifically in prem economy .. detailing the seats features.. although we know they don't promote details of how crappy their economy seats are.. ( they lie and say they are comfortable sometimes.. lol ) the fact is.. yes.. buy a seat that reclines and you have the right to recline. Not reclining or putting seat up for meals etc is NICE.. but poster said was it a "right" and yes.. it is I think as any fa would tell you ( remember in the original incident the fa told the male passenger to remove the knee defender to allow the recline) . Defending the knees was not a right. ( and that's pretty clear since they design the seats to be too close together for most peoples comfort)

I purchased a car that is designed to drive at 120 mph. Why am I to be denied the right to do so whenever it pleases me? This is an extreme comparison, but it is the identical logic to the seats are designed to recline.

You seem to have missed the point, Pat. Both you and the occupant behind you cannot both have purchased that same space behind your seat and in the space of the person behind. The issue is not the knee defender, it's everyone's fair use of the same space.

Meanwhile,Ii am amazed when I see comments such as "If someone needs more room for whatever reason, it is up to them to buy a seat that will accommodate them. It is not the responsibility of the stranger sitting in front of you." How is it that this does not cut both ways? If someone needs to be reclined for the flight, then why isn't it up to them to buy the bed-like seats at the front that do so without taking anyone else's space?

Maybe it involves a different demographic, but I never hear about seat-space issues on buses or trains, and some of those people-movers have tight spaces, too.

Larry,, not a good comparision. A car designed to do 120.. feel free to do so.. on roads that it is legal to do so.
A seat that reclines.. feel free to do so.. when it is permitted ( ie not during take off or landing) .

A person who is very very big girth wise is required to find a seat that fits him or her.. so why does a tall person not have to do the same thing? They do not make exceptions for those who are too big because of health issues.. so no exceptions for height either.

The real culprit is the airlines for designing seats that are too close together.

If I recline and the person in front of me reclines. .our nose to back of chair ratio of space is not altered. If they choose not to recline I get more space,, if I do not recline.. then I get less space. My problem.. not theirs.

Good point Cyn,, but experience on trains in Europe is even the economy seats have enough room between them, but more importantly, it is much easier to get up and walk around , stretch your legs etc.

Bus travel.. well if one has to take a long bus trip.. they basically know its going to suck. lol

Interesting responses regarding tall and overweight people. I believe that these have only become topics since the airlines have literally started packing us in like sardines. Or anchovies, even. I am only 5'10" and I can tell you that many airlines have my knees into the seat in front of me. There should be a standard height and weight (which is not 4'11" and 98lbs) that the airlines should be mandated to accommodate. So I am aforementioned height and slim by American standards. Am I to understand that I should be charged extra for that? Someone ignorantly commented that tall people make more, so should be expected to pay more. Wow. Are we charging a random, ambiguous fee for those that we arbitrarily choose to pay more? ( and ps, I may have even paid twice as much as others have paid for the ticket, depending on where and how I bought it. How do these crazy airline fares play into this stupid argument?) How about if we revolt and tell the airlines to give us back what we had 10-20 years ago. You know, those seats where we can actually sit, and maybe even catch a nap while crossing the pond. There should be a standard seat size, where if you are small, it's a bonus. Pretty sure the people not complaining about these smaller seats are in the minority here.

I am tall and do not recline my seat. I just returned from Budapest and my lower back and knees were screaming after 11 hours, but I figure that's just the way it is. If I ever reach a point in life that I can afford first class I'm going for it. If the person in front of me reclines theirs I just deal with it, but they certainly do get one heck of a jostling when I try to escape from the window seat to use the bathroom--something I try to limit to perhaps 2-3 times and to coincide with my seat-mate getting up.

The amount of passive aggressive behavior expressed in some postings is a little scary. And the idea that their behavior should be acceptable is unbelievable.

True. What about peeps who're very overweight & make your level of comfort less comfortable. A person has no choice but to sacrifice some of their tiny space because the other person needs more width room? Not fair. There should be a common sense limit to self-entitlement.

"Meanwhile,Ii am amazed when I see comments such as "If someone needs more room for whatever reason, it is up to them to buy a seat that will accommodate them. It is not the responsibility of the stranger sitting in front of you." How is it that this does not cut both ways? If someone needs to be reclined for the flight, then why isn't it up to them to buy the bed-like seats at the front that do so without taking anyone else's space? "

What a ridiculous and specious argument.

Someone doesn't need to buy the "bed-like" seats up front if the reclining seat is good enough for them. No, the space where the seat reclines is not the space of the person behind the reclining seat. The space between the back of a fully reclined seat and the back of your seat fully reclined is your space.

I'm amazed you're amazed. So a total stranger is supposed to sit uncomfortably upright for a 10 hr flight because you didn't buy a seat with enough space for yourself? What if that stranger in front of you is sitting upright to accommodate you and the person in front of them is fully reclined? Then they have less space than you do.

You actually expect that from a total stranger? Really? They bought and paid for their seat, and if it reclines, they can recline. If you need more space, you need to buy a seat that has more space.

You pay for something. You're entitled to use it.

You may be noble and not use it. You may also be noble and give away your pretzels.

Don't think your frigging nobility is going to get you any of my peanuts.

Interesting...
I am a bit claustrophobic... Is that a reason enough to ask the person in front of me not to recline?? :)

I recline slowly when I feel the need to rest or sleep....

Spirit airlines is a domestic airline isn't it, longest flights are probably no more them 5-6 hours?

The ONLY reason Spirit and Allegiant took away the "recline" was to fit more seats so they can make more money. They couldn't care less about economy class "space." Nice spin Baldanza.

I think the end result of all the bickering, and now 3 flights diverted over "reclining", will be that all airlines will take the recline function out. And cram in even more seats. Flying to Europe in economy will be even more uncomfortable than it is now, especially from the west coast.

Add phone calls to cramped seating. Oh boy!

As I said earlier, they should have thought of this and reduced the max incline angle when they reduced the space between seats. They really should have foreseen the consequences of their actions. Airlines and flyers are approaching a breaking point over this issue. Sooner or later, someone is going to file and win a lawsuit for damages. Or a consumer group will select one of the worst offenders and organize a successful boycott against the airline.

I recline. And I don't get upset if someone else reclines, or kicks my seat, or pulls on the back of my chair when he/she stands up, or accidentally falls asleep leaning against me. I know it is going to be uncomfortable. I am just trying to get comfortable and so is everyone else. As long as people are polite, I am willing to drop my annoyance threshold for the duration of the flight.

As others pointed out, this is the fault of the airlines, not the other passengers. No need to get upset at someone for attempting to perform a basic function (like standing up) in a teeny tiny space.

EDIT: And as far as height/weight- in general, I do not think it is fair to expect someone to pay more because of his or her size. Yes, someone who is very overweight and clearly needs two seats is one thing. But what about someone who is 6 ft? What about someone who is fit but is an athlete and has broad shoulders? Their torso or knees may be interfering with some of your personal space but trust me, they are way more uncomfortable than you are. Anyone can guarantee more space on their flights by paying for an upgraded seat. The shorter/smaller people don't have more of a right to the smaller seats than the bigger/taller people.

As I said, I don't recline personally and have just a bit of knee room when someone in front of me reclines. Like others here, I feel like "That's the way it is" and do my best to tolerate it. Personally, I never found a few inches of reclining did anything for me..... so I'd be okay if all airlines went to non-reclining seats. In looking around the net, it seems (perhaps I am wrong) about 2/3 like reclining and about 1/4-1/3 don't. So, I doubt if airlines will alienate the larger part of their customer base by installing non-reclining seats. Several airlines are now trying to fit even more seats into the body of the aircraft so this issue will get worse. BTW, some interesting articles posted here about the "Culture War" of reclining.

Thought I would edit this and post a link to one side of the "Knee Defender" story: The Users Side of the Story

We're probably not far from airlines charging for reclinable seats as an amenity, and they'll want $5 bucks from Ed if he wants their pretzels or peanuts.

"In looking around the net, it seems (perhaps I am wrong) about 2/3 like reclining and about 1/4-1/3 don't. So, I doubt if airlines will alienate the larger part of their customer base by installing non-reclining seats."

Since when have the airlines cared a hoot about how many of their customers cared about something before making changes. If the change benefits their bottom line, they'll do it. If not, they probably won't.

I'm on the side of: sometimes I recline, sometimes I don't. If the person in front of me reclines I usually do also, so by default I may irritate the person behind me but so be it. As long as the seats are made to recline and it's allowed by the airline, then if I need to do it I will. I also have some difficulty getting up out of the seat if the person in front of me is reclined so I have no choice but to disturb them by using their seat back (sorry people, that's the way it is). Personally, I'm usually so happy to be going to Europe I wouldn't care if they strapped me to the floor for 10 hours, I can tolerate a little discomfort for the reward at the end.

A couple of things confuse me about these recent issues. We've been jammed into the tighter seats for a couple of years now so why, all of sudden, are people reacting this way? And why are people becoming so nasty in these situations that airlines are diverting their planes (at high cost no doubt and a real inconvenience to the other passengers) to land and dump these people off - wow, I never knew I could demand that the pilot land the plane and let me off, that's a new one on me (most recent event in Florida on Delta). I don't think the blame for this can be placed totally on the airlines for jamming so many seats in. The idiots who react with violence to any annoyance or perceived insult/injury need to shoulder the blame also.

Good points/post Nancy.. yes, seats have been tight for years now.. whats with people going ballistic so easily now! ?

Not speaking for myself, but issues build and build to the point that people reach a breaking point. That appears to be happening with this issue. I don't think people have suddenly turned mean over it, but people sometimes get mad as hell and decide they are not going to take it anymore. A lot of folks who suffered these little indignities when airfares were low get fed up with paying a lot more for a lot less, and, feeling powerless against the air cartel, they are taking it out on each other.

On the other hand, some people, like the first guy in these stories, are just jerks.

" issues build and build to the point that people reach a breaking point. "

Oh, yeah, right - reaching a 'breaking point' over an airline seat?! To me this just says a lot about what's wrong with the society we live in today. If you're reaching the breaking point because of another airline passenger encroaching on your space, then baby you got issues!

I recline, mainly to sleep. But I have to recline because the 500 lb person last time decided he was going to practically sleep on top of me!

If you're that heavy and tall, save up and go to business class, please.

I shouldn't have to pay for your overrating and lack of exercise!

No one asks my permission ever, before reclining. I usually check to see who is behind...small person, child, someone sleeping and reclining? Then I recline. I was told by a rude person that she had the right to recline. She put her seat all the way into our space. We pay for extra leg room though, but still those heavy folks seems to stress tje

I recline, mainly to sleep. But I have to recline because the 500 lb person last time decided he was going to practically sleep on top of me!

If you're that heavy and tall, save up and go to business class, please.

I shouldn't have to pay for your overrating and lack of exercise!

No one asks my permission ever, before reclining. I usually check to see who is behind...small person, child, someone sleeping and reclining? Then I recline. I was told by a rude person that she had the right to recline. She put her seat all the way into our space. We pay for extra leg room though, but still those heavy folks seems to stress their seats.

I think I have a solution. Some living room recliners move the seat bed forward instead of the seat back back (so they can be put against the wall). If they did that with aircraft seats, then when you reclined, it would be your own knee space that got reduced.

Of course, reclining your seat would actually give the person behind more knee space, so the people now saying you can't recline would be demanding that you do.

After reading some responses, I thought I'd clarify that if the person in front of me has reclined all the way into my space, I give them quite a jostling ONLY because from the window seat that's just about the only way to get out if seats are reclined--between seatmates leaving stuff on the seat when they move for me, audio cords plugged in to arm rests, purses and shoes on the floor, trying to climb out takes all the maneuvering power I can muster, especially since I am 5'8 and can't stand up.

On the United flight over they fed us a snack an hour before landing that included, for me, a bad piece of melon. Within 5 minutes I was aware I might be sick and boy, you'd better believe everyone moved quickly to let me out! Much as I like to huddle in my corner by the window, next trip I think I'll do an aisle seat.

Nancy, I think airlines "care" about their customers in the "recline or not" debate because, as you said, I don't think it makes a difference to them.... so why alienate a larger group of their customers and make seats non-recliners. If lots of people wanted non-recliners, I think they might do that (a simple lock would be easy to install.) I agree with you, if there was any advantage to them one way or the other they wouldn't care one little bit and do whatever they wanted. Also, as to why now..... because seat width and leg room continue to shrink....I would argue past the point where tall or obese people were the only passengers affected. Some airlines are working on plane to go from 9 seats across to 10..... and I'll bet leg room soon shrinks from 31 to 30 inches. We'll see. Also, I must note as Ginger wrote, no one has ever asked or even glanced backward toward me when they wanted to recline..... asking would be so refreshing!

Re: " Issues build and build to the point that people reach a breaking point. "
Please note the plural. The recline issue is just the latest symptom of a larger problem with airline travel in which people are paying a lot more for a lot less than they were a few years ago. There really is a lot of anger out there.

"It's my right to recline my seat max"...............playing devils advocate here..........why ? because there is a poster size print out of passenger rights in the gate area with the statement that it is our right to recline maximally?
I work at a hospital, in every room there is a poster stating what the patients rights are. I have never seen such publication in an airline gate stating we had any rights. If there isn't publication of our rights, should we assume that we have rights to begin with?
I have recently been on airplanes that STILL had an ashtray. Does that mean we have the right to smoke because there is an ashtray? Not really. Since there is a button to recline seat, do we really have "the right" to recline?

I am too poor to travel first class overseas, but not poor enough to not travel. I try to purchase economy comfort when I can. I have never had issue with seat busting up my knees (5'4). I've never had issues getting up to go to bathroom because of full recline. I've never had tray slam in my lap because I had someone recline. I'm never comfortable in either upright or reclined position. I just keep my mouth shut and hope 9 hours goes by fast. I only hope for a quiet ride without the seat grabber behind me pulling at my seat. If someone asked me to not recline so far, it would not bother me.

So in all, I am not team "it's my right" to recline because I firmly believe it's not a right unless stated in a written document. If we have long leg issues, it should be brought up to the flight attendants who could help shuffle the people around.
It is my right to suffer for 8-9 hours on a plane as I elect to travel. You have to sacrifice somewhere. If large people have been bullied to purchase two seats then maybe extra tall people need to cough up a bit more dough for exit row, economy comfort, business class, etc.......?
At the end of the day, no one is happy....ever. We just aren't a one size fits all society.

Yes, I recline my seat. After all I paid for it. I also pay for the 'extra' room in coach whenever It is available on flights more than about four hours.

The real culprits are the airlines for squeezing in to many seats, often more than the designers planned for (note the 787 in that respect). The other culprits are the customers who want the cheapest seats imaginable.. I am amused by people who will book flights to out of the way airports, grind up their precious vacation time with extra travel requirements, pay extra ground transportation costs, pay for extra meals on the road, and even pay for an extra night's lodgings in order to save less than $100 on airfare.

FOr what it's worth, I would gladly give up the modern electronic amusement center that comes with many seats for an extra 3 inches of room.

Well, the Big Announcement today has certainly made this discussion moot. I mean, the announcement (by an un-named airline) that they plan to get rid of most economy seats and have passengers stand, while strapped to vertical racks. We are told this will save fuel, because more passenger can be transported and that reduces fuel cost per "pax".

If other airlines follow suit (and they usually do) then soon they're won't be anything to recline to the max into the face of the human (oh, I mean "pax" behind you).

Those who still want to Recline To The Max will be able to pay the "seat premium" to sit in "Enhanced Economy", in which case you will actually have a seat to recline, you'll just have to pay for the privilege.

Airline stocks have sky-rocketed since the announcement. Buy your shares now, so you'll be able to afford to sit and Recline To The Max.

Kent, as long as my head is strapped in, I might actually be able to sleep standing. I have never slept more than 20 minutes on transatlantic flight.

Kelly, yes--this was actually one of the justifications offered by The Airlines in today's announcement: they had a doctor testify that having us "pax" stand (we are all "pax", not people) would reduce use of ambien (a known habit-forming drug) because you won't be able to sleep standing up even if you take 1 and 1/2 ambien; and also they said there would be fewer leg blood clots, since we all know that sitting for 12 - 20 hours is medically dangerous for "pax" over 50.

You see, the airlines ARE thinking of us.

Kent, I believe that was Ryan Air, the same company that has proposed putting pay toilets on airplanes.

"I have recently been on airplanes that STILL had an ashtray."

@Kelly it's a matter of economics. The airline was too cheap to replace seats installed before the smoking ban. I doubt that they paid for seats with ashtrays since the smoking ban. But even brand new airplanes, or recently "re-seated" ones, have reclining seats. Why do airlines pay extra to install reclining seats now if they don't want you to use them?

Maybe the presence of reclinable seats is intended to keep all of us focusing on seats, space, and courtesy, so no one's paying attention to on-time performance ?

Why do airlines pay extra to install reclining seats now if they don't want you to use them?

I think the intent was to avoid paying extra to redesign the seats. They probably don't care one way or the other whether people recline. Airline executives, who make these decisions, would never dare to travel in coach; they probably take the train, anyway.

In response to the "Why now?" question, I don't think it's really only about reclining seats or entitlement or bad manners. Think about the headlines of the past two weeks: ramping up terrorist, military and paramilitary violence; fatal disease spreading. Even if these events take place in parts of the world not on our itineraries, it creates or enhances the feelings of anxiety and uncertainty that are normal reactions to being "far from home". So any invasion of "my space" becomes a perceived threat to "my person".

@Zoe - I fully understand your reasoning. We all live in this crazy violent world and suffer these 'invasions' of our personal space but we don't all react with violent behavior (whether verbal or physical) and it doesn't make it ok if some do. My issue is with the boneheads who are allowed to get away with such behavior even though it inconveniences the rest of us. If we have to sit in the same cramped seats as they do, at least we deserve a little peace and quiet while we're doing it. And when someone reacts with violence, then yes, they to are to blame. And as for my question of why now, we've been living with these scares and worries for quite some time, and also with these petty annoyances and perceived insults etc, so I'm not sure that explains it.

I'm sure that the lower cost of non-reclining seats would pay for the redesign in short order. That's not the reason that new seats aren't non-reclining.

I'm not so sure that this whole situation isn't a ploy by the airlines. Most of the offenders weren't arrested. Why? Maybe they were in the employ of the airlines. A week ago, if the airlines had eliminated the more costly reclining seats, a lot of fliers would have been incensed, but now they can eliminate the seats and say they are doing it to eliminate strife between passengers (they're only thinking of us) - and save money in the process.

Wasn't offering an excuse, just an opinion that there may be a correlation of when these types of behaviors occur with other factors. Yes, we've been living with these stresses for a long time, but it seems to me that a spike in bad behavior is possibly accompsnied by a higher degree of perceived public danger.

Nowhere have I seen mentioned here the safety factor of additional seating installed without the increase in the number of emergency exits, width of aisles to accommodate the added number of bodies. So to me the question of recline to not to recline becomes secondary.....

FARs (somewhere around Part 25) prescribe the exit/seat ratio.

Adding a few seats did not bust the number or it wouldn't have happened.

How do you get to an additional 110? There are not a 110 rows on a 777.

According to Wall Street Journal article this week, the three incidents that hit the news this week, were all in seating that was "economy plus" or whatever the particular airline calls their extra leg-room seats. Just mentioning to help fule the discussion.

The 300 Trip7 is a stretch version by thirty or forty feet.

Additionally pax seats are in the former cockpit area and the pilots wear goggles and are strapped into top-mounted saddles. Also, the sole bathroom is now a hole in the floor.

"I wouldn't complain if airlines charged customers based on weight"

A 777 has a maximum takeoff weight of 660,000 lb and, in single class (all economy) configuration, has 550 seats. That is 1200 lb per seat. No wonder the airlines don't care about the individual passenger's weight. The difference between a 250 lb man and a 60 lb child is insignificant in terms of total airline weight, but they each take one seat.

I'm probably going to jinx myself, but I want to thank everyone who showers or whatever before they fly. In all my years of flying, I have never sat in an area of odor. For my usual 2-3 hr flights, I am normally stuffed in a middle seat. I can put up with all kinds of discomfort - feel free to recline that seat suddenly, grab my seat/hair, drop your tray table with the full force of gravity and kick away - for a few hours. Just thanks for keeping it clean.

The future of flying. (2nd cartoon)

Enjoy the comfort now. Airbus is applying for a patent for a new seat design. Reclining is not even a consideration if you eliminate the seat back. Don't fall asleep.

http://www.latimes.com/business/travel/la-fi-airbus-seeks-patent-for-bicyclelike-airline-seat-20140711-story.html

I think it should have foot pedals and then we can exercise our way to Europe.☺

I once chose the last aisle seat in the last row of the plane thinking I was lucky. Instead I got a seat that didn't recline, and no sleep on my 6 hour flight. As such, I will always recline! That being said, at 5'11", I've yet to find a plane seat where the person in front of me reclines and comes even close to my knees. Perhaps if your 6'5" or such, you'll have an issue, but most of us should be just fine, and complain only because we want to cross our legs or use a laptop on the meal try without hurting our neck. as many have said, you get what you pay for, so if you have that need, business class is your ticket! Don't expect me to be uncomfortable for you!

I have a feeling that this thread is never going to go away.

To follow up on what jlucca shared: I was once in the seat directly in front of the last row of non-reclining seats. Felt terrible for the ladies as they were completely caught off guard that their seat did not recline. We agreed to not recline our seats to give them some space. It all worked out, and I don't recall that flight being any different than other flights where I did recline. As I stated previously, I do not have a strong need to recline (the few inches make no difference to me for some reason), so it all worked out. There should be some warning, or discount, for those seats!

So how about this . . . carry the airplane scenario outside of a jet (in line for a movie, at the supermarket, waiting at Immigration/Customs after you land), and while waiting, lean back and extend one leg. The person behind you can do the same, and the person behind them can do likewise, and you'll have a line of people all looking like the "Keep on Truckin'" guy from the R. Crumb cartoons from the 1960's (unless the last person in line is up against a wall and can't lean back).

Maryann that was very kind of you .. I don't know if I could sit upright for 10 or 12 hours. .. was it a long flight or a shorter one?

Lee, loved your cartoons!

To Pat: What would have been kind would have been to switch seats, but then I got worried that they would fully recline, so opted to just let them know that we'd not recline. Thankfully, the people in front of us did not recline all the way, but just a bit, so we were not too cramped either. We were returning from CDG to IAD, so it was not an overnight trip and about eight hours, which also tremendously helped. I think I sat and watched three movies in a row in the same position as I would on my sofa with of course some walking and trips to the restroom to break things up and stretch those legs (the bathroom was right there behind those ladies' seats, so rather convenient). I think my dad did ask halfway if he could recline a bit, and they were okay with it at that point. I think the initial shock had worn off!

I also did not switch seats with them because it felt claustrophobic not to have that open space behind, recline or not! And, even if I don't recline, my seat still gives a little. Those seats did not! It just looked pretty awful.

If it's ones "right" to recline, why are we withholding those rights from a certain group of unlucky people, and why aren't the folks who feel it is their "right" standing up for these poor souls!

Maryam, that was very considerate of you to not recline. I had the misfortune of sitting in the furthest back seats coming home from Chicago years ago. I was with my sister and my 2 daughters. The youngest was 12 months old and on my lap. The man in front of me wasted no time slamming his seat back as far as it would go. I very nicely asked him if he could not recline it so far, since it didn't leave any room for us. He told me he could recline it as far as he liked and it wasn't his problem if I didn't have any room. I considered making the baby cry to annoy him, but didn't knowing it would annoy everyone else. I ended up standing in the galley most of the trip. This was pre-9/11.

I have back issues and it would be difficult for me to sit totally upright for an extended period of time. I've taken plenty of short trips that I didn't recline. But on a long trip, my seat is going back at least a little. I shouldn't have to arrive at my destination barely able to walk so the person behind me can have full access to their laptop.

I'm not surprised this problem occurred on United Airlines...they are the worst for space and customer service. Their trans Atlantic flights are cruel and unusual punishment.
The airlines promote ill will between passengers by reducing the space to cram in more seats for profit. We should be fighting the airlines, not fellow passengers.
The FAA should have a decent minimum space rule for flights to/from Europe. ( For me it's at least a 10 hour flight.) This is not just for comfort, but for health reasons. In the last 4 flights to Europe, I've gotten sick each time. This did not occur back when seat distances were more reasonable.

I just returned from Europe this week, flying from Vienna to the U.S. The first leg of the trip was on Tyrolean Air (Austria Air). The seating space was more than adequate. Then I transferred to a cattle car that is United Airlines, it was so cramped I couldn't pull out my bag stored under the seat in front. The space difference between the two airlines was remarkable. I'm on antibiotics again, swearing off ever flying United again!
We need to make an appeal to the FAA that requires decent spacing between seats, especially on those long trans Atlantic flights.

I flew United into London yesterday from San Francisco. For the first time we flew economy plus. Even though the person in front of me almost immediately reclined their seat, I never felt crowded and I had plenty of leg room. I didn't recline at all until after lunch was served. At that time I did recline in order to try to get some rest. The person behind me didn't complain.

I agree.. there should be a discount for those last row seats.. in fact I rather assumed there was.. who would choose them!! The bathrooms usually right behind them so doors opening and shutting all night..possibly smelly, people standing right beside your seats waiting for washrooms,, and no seat recline.. ugh..

I think that, by default, one has a right to recline if the seats allows it so.

This being said, having a right to do something doesn't mean it is always in good manners to do so. I'll usually wait end of meal service to recline, and often don't recline on daytime flights unless the person in front of me also reclined. I will not stop reclining my seat because someone says he/she wants to use a laptop (happened twice), but I'll consider reclining less if a particularly tall person is sit behind me.

Something I noticed on the latest seat models is that they don't encroach as much as before on the passenger behind you because they slide your own seat forward to provide a wider angle between seat and backseat. So if you recline fully, you are also getting closer to the seat in front, so there are some proper incentives there.

As for airlines always cramming more people into tighter and narrower seats, I think costumers have just spoken with their wallets at a time when jet fuel, once just one of many expenses of an airline, has become responsible for 40-50% of costs of a typical international carrier.

Costumers will flock to the cheapest fare, and induce a race to the bottom or, better say, a race to the closest possible spacing.

"Costumers will flock to the cheapest fare"

That's what consumers are supposed to do in the Free Market system. So suppliers, in order to compete, are supposed to get more efficient. Unfortunately, they try to get a competitive advantage instead by cheapening the product without our knowing it.

We should at least make them post the size (width and pitch) of the seats they are selling.

@Pat - more in the (long) list of disadvantages of being in the very last row of seats: you're likely the last ones off the plane, and some the overhead bins are devoted to the staff's use, so you might have to search around for a place to stash your carry-on items.

@Lee - since you mention seat width, maybe someone will be coming up with a new device (to join the Knee Defender) -- the Butt Defender ?!?

"the Butt Defender"

Maybe something similar to the knee defender that prevents the armrest from being raised.

Or, how about spikes on the side of your pants - ala porcupines.

BTW, maybe we should consider reclined as the normal position of the seat. The airline just provides upright to expedite egress for emergency or deplaning.

@Lee- regarding the normal position - I've heard similar suggestions about toilet seats, that is, perhaps "up" is the normal position and it's only lowered for the convience of some people ;-)

Spikes on the side of pants...LOL

Just don't wear them inside-out :-)

"perhaps "up" is the normal position and it's only lowered for the convience of some people "

Years ago I did Ride the Rockies, an organized week-long bicycle ride across Colorado. They had rest stops including porta-potties, with both a seat, with a lid, over the tank and a urinal on the side. When I just wanted to use the urinal, I didn't want to see into the tank or have the chance that my helmet, gloves, or dark glasses would fall in the hole when I laid them on the bench. I discovered that whenever a female preceded me in the porta-potty, the lid would be left open, and I would have to close it. So it goes both ways. Men don't put the seat down; women don't put the lid down.

Guilty as charged regarding leaving toilet seat lid up...
Still stuck on the idea of those "porcupine pants" - pending trademark or patent "Poke-U-Pants"...

Or you could have so many piercings that you are a porcupine man:

Man refused entry to Dubai

I bet no one reclined into his space.

Grocery stores do the same thing as the airlines. While on the surface the package of "deli meat" (noticed this past weekend) is still $5.99, the package now weights 7 ounces, last year it weight 8 ounces, and 5 years ago probably weighed 12 oz or more. Noticed the same thing on dog food. We used to buy a 40 lb bag for $35.00, but today the bag (same kind, same brand) only weighs 30 lbs and cost $42.00. On the surface, just looks like a little inflation, but combined with weight difference means is a hefty price increase. Not only cost, I have to get to the pet food store every two weeks, instead of every 3 weeks, so probably a marketing ploy also.

So not only do we get less square inches of personal space, airfares are much higher than 10 years ago.

@Karen- venturing off-topic a bit again, I imagine, too, that spiky pants are more expensive than when they were a big deal with Heavy Metal bands in the 1980's. And they'd probably seem smaller now if the rocker tried to put them on again.

@Dave- despite some of the drawbacks with the porcelain hole-in-the-floor with raised foot blocks on either side that I've used in Asia and Europe (what a bunch of us have taken to calling an "Elephant Stand"), that at least eliminates having to make lid and seat decisions.

Also heard on RAGBRAI, the annual bike ride across Iowa, don't ever accept any blue money. You know that some previous rider dropped it down the port-a-john and fished it out . . . and it got stained by the disinfectant fluid. :p

OK, back on topic, check out:
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140917-how-to-trick-terrible-travellers

airfares are much higher than 10 years ago.

I doubt if you can support that statement.

Flights are less expensive now not more expensive!

I flew from Vancouver BC to Paris France in 1985 , we flew out in high season ( july) and returned in shoulder season ( Oct) , which was at that time how you could price a cheap ticket out.

I found the original receipt a few years ago.

1004. Dollars...in 1985!

We also paid 385 to fly from Paris to Athens in October! Nowadays you could pay less then 100 euro's if you catch a sale!

I don't remember my flight costs 10 years ago, but I do remember my first two trips to Europe (because they were my first) 17 years ago. My round trip MSP to LHR in mid-May 1997 was $800, round trip MSP to FRA in late Aug 1997 was $690. In today's dollars they would be $1250 and $1013 respectively. That's a bit less than what I paid for my last two flights although I can't compare them exactly because my last two trips were from DEN and PDX (rather than MSP) but it seems to me they would be pretty comparable to today's prices. I know this is anecdotal (one person's experience) but for me it seems the fares are about the same as they were 17 years ago.

In 2001 I flew round trip from Austin to London for 515.00 - it was in February, but just sayin.

Frank, in 2001, I flew one stop RT from Denver to Frankfurt in the summer for just under $400. The part from the US to Germany was on Lufthansa. Three years later, I flew non-stop RT on Lufthansa, to Frankfurt in March, for just under $300. The lowest fare I can find today for mid November is $1100 on United; Lufthansa is almost $1400.

For domestic flights, basic fares might be down a little, but bags are no longer included in advertised fares, so REAL fares are probably up. A few years ago, airlines were losing money. Today they are making money, and I don't think their costs have gone down, so the extra money must have come from fares.

With seats being jammed together, you certainly are not getting as much for the basic fare as you did 10 years ago. You should really compare the economy fares 10 years ago with economy plus fares today.

In 2001 we flew r/t SFO-CDG non-stop for $850 (left June, returned Sept). Every trip since has been significantly higher.

In November 2007, flew non-stop to London for $500. And in April 2009, flew non-stop to Paris for $620. In October 2009, to Rome for $800. On our most recent trips, could not find anything below $1000.

I would never consider reclining on a flight lasting less than 3 hours and I would expect my neighbors to do the same unless they had unique circumstances that required it.

The issue here is one of courtesy. I may have the right to recline, but if it infringes on my neighbor's space I can choose to set my "right" aside out of consideration for others. This is basic to having a healthy society. I need to care about my neighbor.

The longer flights get trickier. I do recline, but I would definitely give a little warning to the person behind and try to move slowly.

These same courtesy thoughts would go a long ways toward the other complaints in this post (kicking kids, overweight people, smelly people). I turn and ask the parent of the child nicely if they could keep the child from kicking the seat. 80% of the time that works. Overweight people can't shed weight overnight just because they need to fly somewhere. If they could, they would. You have no way of knowing what the person's story or situation is. It's time for a little empathy and kindness here. Finally, I keep a small bottle of scented hand sanitizer in my purse and find that frequent use helps take care of unpleasant odors.

If all of these solutions don't work and you find your situation unbearable, talk to the flight attendant in a kind voice and suggest a positive solution to the problem.

Cripes!

Since this thread started I've taken at least ten flights, maybe twelve -- and about half have been either transoceanic or transcontinental.

It not one single case did it matter if the person in front of me reclined or not. With the seat in front pushed full back, the only way I could get my head to it was to undo my seatbelt. Backs move independently of trays -- you can still prop up a tablet and watch something. Unless you're a real porker, you can scoot across however many to get to the aisle once the people in between stand up.

What in the blue blazes is the discussion about?

"I keep a small bottle of scented hand sanitizer in my purse and find that frequent use helps take care of unpleasant odors."

Carol, I would kindly ask you not to use your scented hand sanitizer. Perfumed scents make me very sick and if I were sitting near you it would be extremely unpleasant for me. Thoughtfulness and consideration are somewhat subjective. You see nothing wrong with using your scented hand sanitizer, not realizing it can make some people very sick.

Lee, I know what you mean about losing things into porta potties. years ago I lost an expensive pair of sunglasses in one. Needless to say, I now buy the cheapies! Not that I use porta potties often.