Please sign in to post.

The Schengen Mess (or woe is Schengen)

I have applied for a long-term visa, but the odds of getting it are somewhat dubious. So, I decided to sit down and start figuring out a method to the Schengen madness.

Before this year is out, I will have made 4 trips into the Schengen zone. Without a lot of long-range planning, I have found myself spending countless hours behind a Schengen calculator. The result is a realization that I’ve been winging the Schengen limits for too long and needed to try and figure out three long trip windiws in a 12-month period that can be repetitive year after year.

The best I have come up with is 43 days (six weeks or 1.4 months) in Schengen and 78 days (11 weeks or 2.6 months) out. A 43-day window the way I am looking at it. This will repeat year after year.

The system, according to the calculator, keeps you 44 days in Schengen on the first trip and 88 days in Schengen thereafter.

Yes, that’s a bit tight but if the schedule says start 1 January, I depart the U.S. on 1 January and the Schengen doesn’t start until the next day when I go through passport control, so each trip, if I used the full window subtracts a day on from the 88 days.

These, for me, are just windows of opportunity. Leave a few days later or return a few days earlier but try and stay in the window and that will pick up days for an emergency or something special. And I often go outside Schengen for some period each trip. Of course, my last trip to Romania was 5 days for which Schengen gives me 3 days of credit. So, it takes a lot of time outside Schengen to put a dent in the math.

Posted by
11830 posts

The solution is Professor Plum in the kitchen with the lead pipe.

Posted by
4228 posts

Sorry Mr. E but you lost me on paragraph 3. Hope you get your visa to make your life, trips, and future posts easier.

Posted by
7891 posts

There have been so many stories about regular people who miscalculate, or have an unforeseen circumstance that keeps them just over the regular 90 day limit, and they’re screwed.

So in reverse, what happens if you have to leave just before you stay for 90 days? Do the authorities make you stay, and you can’t go home, because you unintentionally violated the long-term visa? So they want tourists to visit the Schengen countries quickly, then scram. But they want long-term stays to really be long, then repeatedly repeated?

Does it help if you use a Visa card for spending, while you’re staying on a visa?

Posted by
16171 posts

So they want tourists to visit the Schengen countries quickly, then scram.

This reminds me of a recent conversation I had with a Border Force agent in the UK:

She: How long will you be in the UK?

Me: One week

She: Purpose of your visit?

Me: See the sights, spend some money, go home.

She (smiling): And we appreciate it.

Senor E: The whole concept of a long term visa is for those who want to stay longer than 90 days. Not go in and out. Rather than a regular long term Visa, does Hungary have any special visa for "retired" persons where you can live in the country but can't work? They are usually easier to get especially since you own property. Any thoughts of hiring an immigration attorney in Hungary?

Posted by
10593 posts

The 90-day timeline is the same throughout the Schengen zone, just as it is with visitors to the US. However, the length of time to obtain the one-year visitor's visa varies. It's about a week after the interview for France, not 50 days as you say for Hungary. That would be inconvenient. Otherwise, I got lost in your post.

Posted by
4228 posts

Isn’t the point of getting a visa so you don’t have to count the days in the zone? Can’t you stay for the entire year, coming and going as you please?

Posted by
559 posts

I've spent quite a while in the US. I could also come up with many terms to describe the topic of residence, visas, etc. :-) :-) Nothing different then in the Schengen area.

Posted by
19955 posts

Senor E: The whole concept of a long term visa is for those who want to stay longer than 90 days. Not go in and out. Rather than a regular long term Visa, does Hungary have any special visa for "retired" persons where you can live in the country but can't work? They are usually easier to get especially since you own property. Any thoughts of hiring an immigration attorney in Hungary?

Attorney. Did.
Retirement Visa. Nope.
We wait and see on the residency I did apply for. But it's a 50/50 chance.
The math was just to make life easier if no visa. Now I have some windows to work in and stay out of trouble.

It's all good.

Posted by
2267 posts

Is there even such a thing as a “Schengen Visa”? I had understood that you could get long-stay visas for specific countries within Schengen, but are still held to the 90-day rule if you travel within the zone outside of that country. I understand OP has a base in Hungary, but it would still be worth keeping in mind.

Even then, residency rules tied to visas may only allow a certain amount of time out of the country to be eligible for renewal. (Traveling within Schengen may not be tracked against your passport, but, if challenged, is technically applicable as time outside.)

Posted by
4589 posts

Mr. E, I thought you owned property in Budapest. So that doesn't make a difference?

Posted by
2267 posts

I would stay as long as I liked and then hope for the best upon departing.

That kinda worked 20+ years ago, when passport inspections were strictly manuals and US passports didn't really get scrutinized. Now, with passports scanned into databases, it's a recipe to spend one's future travels exploring continents other than Europe.

Posted by
27903 posts

And get fined substantially. And quite possibly miss the outbound flight on the day you're caught while you have an unpleasant discussion with the authorities. Not part of my trip plan.

Posted by
19955 posts

Cala, nope.

I only printed the exercise because there might be someone looking to maximize time in Europe each year. I guess the real message is that its tough to max out the 90 in 180 rule if you plan on doing it every year and on multiple trips.

Posted by
7988 posts

I think to regularly hit 180 days out of 360 in the Schengen zone for the year, over an extended period of cycles, is a bit like playing with fire. If a delay or illness were to occur, they really do not care "why" you are over, just that you went over, it is on you. It may not be all bad if you have a few days of buffer as you go.

Posted by
2267 posts

its tough to max out the 90 in 180 rule if you plan on doing it every year and on multiple trips

Loads of Brits with holiday homes on the Spanish coasts manage to do this without too much hassle. (Prior to Brexit they just had to manage 183 out of Spain to avoid tax residency. The time in the country could be all consecutive.)

Posted by
2465 posts

I think that the problem isn' so much Schengen, but that the OP wants to spend a lot of time in one country and has trouble getting a residence permit.
Given the restrictive immigration policies of most European countries that is not a surprise, but it actually has little to do with Schengen.

Posted by
1945 posts

My zwei phennig, "tourists" who stay in any given place for months and months and months aren't doing the outsized spending particular to shorter term tourists. And even in quite passive ways, they begin to consume public resources without paying substantial taxes. One can understand why countries set up limits for time spent touristing.

Canada is pretty generous to US residents -- 180 days per calendar year or there abouts we can tourist in Canada. And still, as a US citizen this limit has impeded me from choosing to buy a second home north of the border. I kind of can't blame them. I'd be squatting on some pretty lake somewhere, smashing as many potholes into the roads as any other joker blasting around in a big truck but not paying anything to have them filled.

I suppose as such I'm not driving up the price of real estate for work a day Canadians just looking to buy one house in their own country ...

Posted by
1034 posts

So OP, to clarify a few things:
- The Schengen Agreement is purely for the purpose of tourism nothing else.
- There are no long term Schengen Visas
- Individual states have their own rules when it comes to issuing resident permits
- If you are issued a resident permit for a member state you must reside in that state and are allowed to pay short visits to other member states.
- If you do as you described above you will almost certainly fall foul of the income tax laws as well. The commonly quote rule of 180 days is not the only rule used to determine tax residency.

Posted by
4737 posts

Somewhere I found a spreadsheet some nice person created to share. All I have to do is enter some basic information and it reliably tells me how many days I have left, after a particular trip, and what date I can enter again (yes, I have tracked it for a couple of years and counted days on my fingers to be sure before trusting it). I do have to enter my entry and departure dates correctly and be sure I can understand the results. It helps since my trips are never uniform.

Kind of like the spreadsheet calculation DQ shared here at some point that tells me how many days left till I leave!

Posted by
19955 posts

Thank you for the comments, but don't worry about the residency. I hired professional assistance. we will see what happens.

I had someone ask me the other day what days I would be there in Oct and I couldn't answer. Got to run the Schengen program first. Not for Oct, but I do want to be there at Christmas too and the Oct trip impacts that, and what about March then? Before you know it you are having to plan a big chunk of the year. So I thought, maybe easier for me and some others if I set up some continuously reoccurring windows. Just an academic exercise and I thought maybe one other might be interested in.

We are quick to scold a new poster that says they want to spend 90 days in Europe, but in doing so I have never heard anyone point out that today's 90 day trip may affect future plans they may have.

As for the social impact comment. Okay, a valid concern. We can PM a discussion any time. We both might learn something.

Posted by
8312 posts

Partial reasons for the Schengen Agreement:

Countries don't want to have people come in and use their healthcare system while not paying into their tax system.

Countries don't want outsiders moving in mass to their country and driving up the cost of housing. Not that home prices in Europe aren't already overly expensive.

Posted by
1006 posts

Crazy stuff there. A lot of figuring and hand wringing.
There is a plethora of other places to see in the world. Not in the Schengen area.
Widen your world.

Posted by
4737 posts

Lol, treemoss2. I see lots of crazy figuring that is WAY over my head but no hand wringing. Ha! As I am able now to travel more and longer but am not really interested in many places not Europe (although some outside Schengen), I find myself in need of a way to calculate that is better than my fingers for every 180 day period. Hence my borrowed spreadsheet with calculations I could never set up. Many may not be in that position - but some are.

If you check out Mister E’s profile, you’ll probably see a pretty wide world that has evolved into a more narrow focus.🤣