The Knee Defender?

I don't think the knee defender is new. I heard about it a few years ago. I do agree you would have to have a very "entitled" attitude to use it and that people should behave as grownups. I hope I never encounter one of these devices:)

The most telling part of the story is that the FA asked him to remove it and he refused. You gotta do what they say, or handle it more diplomatically. They're the bosses up there. If you don't like it, complain when you get back on the ground.

I'm guessing that his parents never followed through with the "Don't make me turn this car around" threats.

On that note, whenever i recline my seat, or un-recline(ok I made up that word) it I check with the person behind me to make certain they are prepared. It is just common courtesy to not drop your set into recline and risk spilling their red wine all over their white travel pants.

There was a thread started yesterday asking whether "economy plus" seats were worth the extra cost.
After a dozen or so replies, the consensus was yes.

It would be unfortunate to pay an extra fee, as these people apparently did, and not be able to recline your seat.

Had I been the lady in question, I would not have directly confronted the knee defender user.

Best to let the flight attendants handle it.

All of the major US airlines do not allow the use of this device - United banned it over 10 years ago. Of course some solve the problem by making all the seats non-reclinable.

A radio story on the way to work this morning included a quote from the inventor of the Knee Defender. He said he'd invented it 11 years ago, and the intention was never "to screw the guy in front," and that it was not to be used to infringe on another passenger's space or use of their seat. Unfortunately, it's tough to employ something that affects the seat in front without affecting the passenger in front. I guess that's what Business and First classes are for?

On a flight from Washington Dulles to Vienna a few years ago, on Austrian Air, my seat was broken in that it would not recline at all. So, when the person in front of me eventually reclined his seat, I had about 6 inches of room in front of my face. I asked the flight attendant if she could ask the person to please move his seat forward a little because mine was broken and she replied that she "couldn't do it" and that there were no vacant seats for me to move to. Ah, the typical friendly skies of Austrian Air where the economy customer always comes last. Thus, I had a very uncomfortable trans-Atlantic flight. I would have loved to have had a knee defender - or at minimum a sympathetic flight attendant!

Apparently TSA didn't arrest anyone, considering it a "customer service issue". Don't they tell us before every flight takes off that it is illegal to interfere with the flight crew's instructions? So if I refuse to put up my seat back, it's just a customer service issue?

Two airlines now have non-reclining seats. All others (at least in the US) have banned the device, but Amazon still sells it.

Maybe the airlines that still have reclineable seats will start charging for that feature - - - tray tables, too! Maybe "Flight Attendant/Customer Service Intervention Specialists" can be hired on a per-incident basis.

Is getting frustrated with someone who employs a Knee Defender a Knee-Jerk reaction?

It seems like a little communication could have gone a long way here. Planes are too much like elevators, everyone jealously defending their personal space while actively ignoring everyone else. As our personal space shrinks with smaller seats more tightly packed onto the plane, we defend the little we have left even more jealously.

I had never heard of the knee defender and wouldn't use one anyway, but I do try to glance back to see if the person behind me is eating before I recline my seat.

Years ago I was on a transatlantic flight (overnight) with my 9 year old son. I had spoken to him as we got on the plane about not pulling on the seat in front or kicking it. I showed him (he had aisle seat) how to get out of the seat without pulling in front. Then through the night an older gentleman behind him pulled on his seat everytime he was trying to get comfortable. I finally asked him not to do that because he was waking my son up. His reply was "what does he think it is, a sofa?" which made me unhappy. I told him it was a seat and it was my sons, not his. So I showed him how to raise the armrests to get comfortable and that he didn't need to pull on my sons seat. Problem solved.

Just goes to show how some people who are probably perfectly nice people, turn into not so nice ones on an airplane.

Flight attendants word should be law.

Which airlines have non-reclining seats?

A little communication? The man already demonstrated that he thought that he was more important the everyone else on the plane by using such a device. After telling the flight attendant "no" to taking it off, he is the only one who should have been tossed off the flight. Having water thrown at him by the person he was "abusing" is trivial. On top of that, the total disrespect of authority, meaning the flight attendant. It's not the device, it's the "I'm more important" attitude that's a problem.

"Which airlines have non-reclining seats?"

According to one article, Allegiant and Spirit have non-reclining seats. Spirit was already on my don't fly list.

And I don't believe either of those airlines flies transatlantic, anyway. True, the man should not have refused to remove the device. But aside from that, doesn't he have just as much right to be able to use his table as she does to recline?

..."doesn't he have just as much right to be able to use his table and she does to recline?" I didn't realize his tray was inoperable if the seat in front is in the recline position.

Does anyone else think that TSA has diminished the Flight Attendants' authority by not at least fining this person? I hope United bans him.

Pam

The sears in this particular case were on premw economy, I am sure there is enough room in that section that !an was not that cramped, he was just being greedy.

Second , he did not listen to a direct order from a fa, seems to me that should be a charable offence.

Lady should not have thrown water,staff should have informed man that failure to comply with order would mean a consequence from airline( fine, banning , charges etc)

I don't think one NEEDS to recline for a short flight, but when a flight is o er 5-6 hours my back would seize up I'd forces upright that long.

I always recline, after any meal service.

I

Supposedly, it wasn't the leg room, it was because the seat back angle when reclined to the horizontal tray doesn't give room to fully open the top of the laptop. I noticed this last month while flying in normal economy; when the person in front of me reclined their seat, I could not open my netbook fully. All I had to do was slide the tray towards me, and I could open it fully, but then it was close enough to me to make typing a little difficult (but then I didn't have the extra four inches of Economy Plus. I also didn't have a full size laptop. So apparently the issue was being able to use a big laptop efficiently at the expense of the passenger in front's comfort.

The man bought the device, took it on board and used it so HE could be comfortable at another passengers expense. Yes, the woman may have overreacted, but after hearing him tell the Flight Attendant that he would not take it off, well... He may has well told the woman he could care less if she is uncomfortable, he is all important. Yes, she paid for the seat, but he would not allow her to use it as designed. He should be banned from flights on all airlines. The airline should have stepped up and backed the flight attendant by fining or banning him.

Wow, people here give a lot of authority to those who don't have it.

The airline can't "fine" anyone. All they can do is ban people from flying their airline.

TSA has taken no authority away from anyone. They too can't fine anyone. They are not a law enforcement organization. If they feel someone needs to be arrested at a checkpoint, they have to call a law enforcement officer. Once you are on the airplane, TSA's job is done.

If something goes on in the skies, it is up to the airline to call in law enforcement personnel. They decided in this situation that it was easier to just remove the two people from the flight.

Disregarding or disobeying the orders of a flight attendant is a federal offense. However, again, it is up to the airline to decide if they want to press charges.

Seems if someone HAS to get some work done on a flight, they could either pick a conducive section to sit in (and maybe pay for that suitability), or communicate their desires and see if a trade could be worked out. Once he got tossed off in Chicago, at least the guy probably had a lot of space for himself and his laptop. And the woman had to go find some more water. Wonder if and how they each got to Denver?

This is clearly a case of "pre-meditated denial of reclination". The guy boarded the plane with the device and the intent of stopping the passenger in front of him from reclining.

The sad part is the airline really should have pressed charges against the man for refusing to follow a flight attendant's request. That undermines the authority of all F/A's.

Instead of being civil and respectful, he chose to use a device and then ignore the FA. Imagine IF he actually talked to the woman and expressed his particular needs and maybe they could work something agreeable to both out. Why bother, I guess.

IMO on an overnight flight, such as to Europe, you should expect that the passenger in front will fully recline for sleeping or relaxation during the "sleeping hours."

It is easy to get out of a seat with or without foot problems. Put up all the arm rests up, slide from one seat to the next. Hit the end, turn 90 degrees and stand up. Never touch a single seat back - reclined or not. I think people who may be control freaks (of varying degrees) may be the ones most objecting to the reclining seat. At 6-2, I don't like the seat in my face or no knee room, but so what. I can live with it. I think you have right to be comfortable and if that includes reclining the seat, then do it. If your are comfortable with the upright seat, then don't recline. But you cannot impose your seat "standards" on someone else. The seats were designed to recline for a reason and you should not be made to feel guilty if you use the feature.

Those economy plus seats are roomy enough. I cannot imagine the need for such a device. As others have suggested, it probably met some kind of emotional need rather than a purely physical one.
When reading the article, all I could think about were the poor folks sitting next to these two. I think in economy plus, there is only one other person next to you, so maybe not as traumatic (although if I was next to him, I would have had a hard time not saying something to him). Couldn't they have moved some seats around until they landed and booted this guy out. If I was sitting near by, I would have switched with the lady until he was off. I rarely recline unless trying to sleep on a red eye as I find the angle rather uncomfortable.
I guess an equivalent would be when people put their purse/bag on the bus/train seat next to them, and begrudgingly move it for others to sit.

"Apparently TSA didn't arrest anyone, considering it a "customer service issue". Don't they tell us before every flight takes off that it is illegal to interfere with the flight crew's instructions? So if I refuse to put up my seat back, it's just a customer service issue?"

Let's start with a few basics here.

1. The TSA is not in charge of what goes on IN the skies. Not sure why they even showed up here. Or why they get to make a statement
2. The TSA can't arrest folks. They aren'l really law enforcement. That's why at EVERY airport they have REAL police to actually deal with real issues. So why they are discussing "arrest" seems more like a "look I can appear on camera" moment LOL!

If the only people who met the plane to deal with this were truly TSA then someone blew it big time on several counts.

1. The TSA was "expanding" it's control with no legal authority.
   
2. United should have had REAL law enforcment to arrest the folks who failed to comply with the instructions of the crew

I expect the true authority on the issue, the FAA, will get involved with United on how they handled this.

It is common courtesy to recline gently, at least. I was reading a hardback novel on a flight when the person in front of me abruptly fully reclined. My book was upright, resting on my thighs, and the seatback crammed it into my leg. It hurt! I was upset, but refrained from pouring water on his head, because I am an adult. I later discovered a large rectangular bruise. On a short flight, I would never recline. On an overnight, I would be very careful to take it slowly.

It happened again! Another fight over reclining seats:

http://www.businessinsider.com/flight-diverted-reclining-seats-2014-8

Perhaps excitable people should not be allowed to fly. (alert! That was tongue in cheek.)

At least this time the outcome was what it should be if you interfere with the flight crew. You get to meet REAL law enforcement not "pretend cops"

@Edmund Alexandre, of Paris, was arrested and charged with interfering with a flight crew * . . . after allegedly grabbing a crew member's arm . . "

This man made physical contact with the FA which made the situation worse for him. ( not done)

@ Thomas . . . "Edmund Alexandre, of Paris, was arrested and charged with interfering with a flight crew * . . . after allegedly grabbing a crew member's arm* . . . "

This man made physical contact with the FA which made the situation worse for him. The man on the flight that stopped in Chicago did not make physical contact although he did ignore a FA's request.

@Paul . . . Whether it was TSA, United Airlines, or the local authorities, I believe the FA's authority was diminished. If anything I wonder if other customers on airlines will refuse to go by what they are told by an FA figuring if one can get away with it, so can they.

Chicago police (usually there are several assigned to the airport) should have been waiting at the gate to arrest both people -- the man for noncompliance of an FA's request; the woman for unruly conduct. Their skirmish put the safety of the passengers on the airline at risk which is why I think the plane was landed at Chicago & the two were put off the plane.

@Frank . . . You must be in good shape to be able to rise from the end-of-row seat with no additional assistance. & I commend you for that. My husband is a recent double below-the-knee amputee with prostheses. He will have the daunting task of getting out of his seat on a transatlantic flight next spring. I am sure he will need to stabilize himself with seat backs, hopefully just the end one on our row.

When airplanes set up Economy Premium class fliers were given 4 - 5 inches of extra foot room & extra reclining space.
Doesn't the extra reclining room negate the extra foot room for tall people sitting behind a full recliner? (Did I get it right?)

My 2-cents worth.

They both disobeyed the law. Law enforcement on the ground should have done something to reinforce the airline policy. The knee defender falls into "illegal device" category as they are not allowed. The guy broke the law. The lady's behavior broke the law.

Two immature adults who do not know what common courtesy means.
Does our law enforcement have time for such immaturity, no. But it will happen again as the law wasn't effectively enforced. This was a lose-lose for all of us that fly.

I agree with every word Frank said... especially... "you cannot impose your seat "standards" on someone else. The seats were designed to recline for a reason and you should not be made to feel guilty if you use the feature. "