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The European city that was your greatest disappointment

Some cities in Europe such as Paris, London and Istanbul will always be perennial favorites with the odd bad experience not tarnishing their reputations. However are there any big European cities that you have "given up on", and for whatever reason(s) vow never to revisit?
Mine is Vienna. We first visited in 1978 as part of a young under 35s travel group. It was Sunday and everything appeared to be closed so, being bored, we left a day earlier than scheduled and took off to Italy.
Fast forward to 2014 where we were on a river cruise having already stopped at Budapest and Bratislava. Despite the rain we thoroughly enjoyed both cities.
We had an open mind about Vienna thinking that in 1978 we must just have been young and naive, especially as many of our current friends like Vienna. Prior to visiting I rewatched one of my favorite movies "The Third Man" to pique my interest. When we arrived in Vienna the rain was incessant, the crowds were unpleasant, the abysmal (ie. non-existent) service at a restaurant added to our woes.
For old times sake we headed to the iconic Riesenrad (ferris wheel) to relive our "3rd man experience". Getting there involved negotiating an obstacle course as there were many closed-off walkways with double-backs required. The entry price was 9E instead of the 8E as advertised that morning on their website. Despite small crowds, the attendant packed 20 people into one carriage so that everyone was jostling for position inside with no-one really happy and external views being forgettable.
We left Vienna that day vowing never to return. There is an abundance of other cities in Europe to visit that eclipse Vienna.

Posted by
85 posts

I've been told that Vienna is very expensive, and has bad service in restaurants, etc. You have apparently experienced this. If anyone here has had a good time there, I'd like to know.

Posted by
11613 posts

I was in Vienna for three nights a few years ago, plan to go back next year. I have never met a big city I didn't like.

True, restaurant service can be terrible, but I used to live on South Beach when every server was an aspiring model, so...

Posted by
1419 posts

I guess we're not big city people (although I live outside Denver, and LOVE London!) We really don't care for Paris. We've been twice and enjoyed seeing the main sights, but were not impressed with the city. I felt like everywhere we went smelled like urine. I didn't feel safe, and it just felt dirty and crowded.

Really didn't enjoy Rome either and will probably never return. I'm glad we went and was awed by some of the sights, but felt like 3 days was more than enough. I think what got to us were the crowds, the pickpockets (that we saw in action) and the immigrants / gypsies constantly putting things in our face to sell, and putting things in our son's hands and expecting us to pay! It became very frustrating!

Posted by
2613 posts

It's funny how personal and varied responses such as these are. For me - Brussels. And Vienna was okay but I was lost constantly and the street names were so long that by the time I found a street sign and then looked down at my map to try to find the street name I had forgotten what the street name was. Over and over again, which was funny, but definitely had an impact on my reaction to the city. I suppose it would be easier now as I travel with GPS on my phone and use data freely but I've never felt the need to go back.

Posted by
36 posts

"Paris............... I felt like everywhere we went smelled like urine".

LOL. ...You must have walked along that covered section of walkway following the Seine on the opposite side to Notre Dame. That smell was one of my rare but enduring unpleasant memories of Paris.

"For me, Brussels".

I agree, not Europe's most interesting city. Le Grand Place and a few other sights can easily be covered in less than 1 day. Then it's time to jump on the train to Bruges!

Posted by
7129 posts

i really enjoyed Vienna when I was there as part of a 4H People-to-People trip right after high school - the classical music environment and elegant buildings. I was disappointed with our experience in Vienna during the RS tour in 2007 because we were there on a Sunday, plus I felt terrible that evening with a stomach bug. Two years ago we returned for 4 days and thoroughly enjoyed it once again. We were thrilled to be upgraded at the Stephansplatz Hotel to a huge room on the top floor with a balcony across the street from St. Stephans - what a special surprise! We enjoyed walking around the center, walking the grounds of the Schonnbrunn and going to a ballet at the opera house. We loved the chance to leisurely enjoy the beauty of Vienna, a special city.

Posted by
1419 posts

cbyrne1953 ... It was all over the place! Or at least that's how I remember it:)

Posted by
7129 posts

The greatest disappointment for me would have to be Florence. The art museums are amazing, but the crowds in the city have changed the feeling of the town.

Posted by
7010 posts

I've been to Vienna twice and would go again in a heartbeat. I love it. The city itself is very beautiful; I love the architecture and the coffee shop culture, and the museums are amazing. I have visited other cities that just did not excite me and some where I had some less than pleasant experiences and some where the weather made enjoying them a challenge, but none that I vowed never to return to. Several are at the bottom of my list of places that I would return to, or not on the list at all, but if someone I was traveling with wanted to go there, I would certainly go along and find something to enjoy there.

I have found in my travels that the cities I have enjoyed the most are ones that I went to without any high expectations. Most notable for me is Budapest. Of course I had heard and read about it but I really had no specific idea of what I wanted to see and do there and I was very pleasantly surprised. I was glad that I planned an extended visit (6 days) so I had lots of time to explore and get off the tourist beaten track - the best way, in my opinion, to experience a new city.

I have found too that I am much more likely to enjoy a city and find unexpected and enjoyable experiences there if I plan to spend at least 3 or more days there, rather than just visiting for a day. If you only go for a day and bad experiences and/or bad weather sour that day, it's more likely that you will develop a bad feeling about that city.

It's good that you decided to be open minded and give the city another chance. The fact that you still aren't thrilled with Vienna is okay. You can't expect to, and probably won't, love every place you go. Every city isn't for every traveler, we all have our favorites and those that just didn't live up, for whatever reason. Just keep traveling.

Posted by
3551 posts

I have been to Rome many times but I find it difficult to warm up to.
Also Ghent, I have read so many great reviews but once there I was disappointed.

Posted by
14482 posts

I first went to Vienna the first week in Sept 1971, the last major city of a 12 week trip. Coming from Germany where I had spent seven weeks visiting cites from Lübeck and Hamburg to Munich, I thought Vienna was depressing, very interesting but depressing, the heat was more oppressive than what I had experienced in Germany, even south of Frankfurt. Numerous buildings, churches, such as the Kunsthistorisches Museum, etc were still black, unlike now, I had to stay in two hostels since there was a max number of days one could stay consecutively...tedious tracking the second one down. After this first visit, I still wanted to return, did that on the 3rd trip (skipped it on the 2nd trip) in Sept 1977. Impressions were still the same...depressing, gloomy place.

It would not be until 2009 that saw me come back to Vienna, the trips in between focused on France, Germany, and Poland. Since 2009 I have been going back every trip. The next trip, summer of 2018, will obviously include Vienna

Given its history and culture, you can see why it is depressing, morose, which I don't find so much anymore, It is a very captivating, historically, linguistically, culturally interesting place, not only in the Ring area, the tourist frequented sites but in the so-called working class districts. Using the combination of the U-Bahn and trams, I go all over in Vienna. There was no U-Bahn during my 1971 and '77. visits. I saw the Riesenrad for the first time a few years ago.

For accommodations and restaurants I don't find Vienna expensive, cheaper than Paris and London, in terms of value.

The one city/town in all I've been to on 23 trips in 46 years I don't care for (vow never to return is too definite, can't commit like that) is Lyon, went there twice, 1997 (didn't like then) and, went back in 1999, both times it was a turn-off, bad vibes, etc. Would I now see it again...just depends.

Posted by
36 posts

"Also Ghent, I have read so many great reviews but once there I was disappointed".

Interesting. I have visited Bruges twice and loved it both times ("just like a fairytale" LOL) and, although I have never visited Ghent, I think of it as a poor-man's Bruges, "Bruges-lite" so to speak. Maybe that's unfair, maybe not.

"Rome, Florence ...crowds/pickpockets/gypsies"
I haven't been to those places since 1978 but sadly these blights seem to be increasing throughout Europe, Paris included. Although it won't stop me from returning.

Posted by
11056 posts

When I read the title of this post, my first thought was Vienna. I am glad I saw it but have no interest in returning.

Posted by
32171 posts

I can't think of any city that I disliked enough not to ever return. I've only been to Vienna once but had a great time, really enjoyed my time there, and would definitely return (although it wouldn't be at the top of my list).

I've always been somewhat ambivalent about Venice and it wouldn't be high on my list of "return visits". I know there are some people that absolutely love Venice, but I'm not one of them. It's a very unique location and should be seen at least once, but I won't be back there for awhile. OTOH, I've really enjoyed my visits to Florence, Rome and other parts of Italy and would return to those whenever possible.

Posted by
11507 posts

Isn't it funny we can all visit a place and yet al have complelty different takes on it .

Fred my then 18 year old daughter and I visited Lyon for the first time three years ago and loved it so much ! Felt perfectly safe and we wandered around at night too ! I remember thinking this is like a much smaller cleaner Paris lol

The only city that turned me off enough that while I would transit through it I don't think I would bother to spend any more time it is Athens ! Gritty big dirty city , of course the ruins are interesting , but that was it for me .

And Barcelona , it was not a bad place , but it just didn't click for us , but we loved a few other places in Spain so I imagine we will pass through Barcelona again someday .

Posted by
868 posts

Really didn't enjoy Rome either and will probably never return. I'm
glad we went and was awed by some of the sights, but felt like 3 days
was more than enough. I think what got to us were the crowds, the
pickpockets (that we saw in action) and the immigrants / gypsies.

I spend at least a week there every year, and if you just visit the three or four sites everyone visits, i.e. Vatican, Colosseum, Spanish Steps, Trevi Fountain, I would agree with you. These places are indeed horrible, especially the Vatican, where you have to slalom around immigrants/gypsies. And the crowds are so horrible that the Vatican museums were the worst part of Rome for me... and I LOVE museums. And waiting for more than one hour to get inside the Vatican cathedral? WTF?
But the great thing about Rome is that the old town is HUGE, and everything there breathes history. You just need a good travel guide (DK Eyewitness Travel Guide is great), ignore the sites mentioned before, and Rome will be a paradise for everyone who likes history and architecture. There are so many interesting sites almost without tourists, you sometimes actually forget that you are in Rome. The highlights for me are usually the less known sites that surprise me, like San Crisogono in Trastevere for example. Antique columns, cosmatesque floor, and the first church from the 8th century below the present building. Or Palazzo Colonna. Only open on Saturdays, very expensive, but will blow you away.

Posted by
2393 posts

We love, love Vienna - such a beautiful city!!!We are returning for a week this trip. It seemed to be a slower, gentler vibe than Paris or London or other large cities - we never had a bad restaurant experience there.

Ghent is a "working" city - not a touristy place but with great medieval sights which we enjoyed.

I don't think I've been to a city I would say I didn't like although Salzburg was kind of meh for us.

Posted by
791 posts

Bruges, without a doubt. When I first got to Europe everybody kept telling me I HAD to go to Bruges, it's the most beautiful little city, it's a hidden gem, etc., etc. So I was staying a friend in Brussels and one of her friends was from Bruges so he took a group of us on a tour there and I was completely underwhelmed. It was nice enough but I didn't think it was as great as everyone says. I probably wouldn't put it in my top 20.

Posted by
6113 posts

I have been the most disappointed in Brussels. I went for a 3 day long weekend by train from London, but could have easily covered what I wanted to see in far less time.

Another lesser disappointment was Venice. Yes, the place is interesting and it is unique, but you can have too many religious paintings and frescoes in one trip, having seen many similar things in other parts of Europe. Some of the people there have a bit of an attitude towards visitors and the food was poor compared to other parts of Italy. Having spent a week there, I am in no rush to return.

Athens in the summer is hideous.

Places that I have enjoyed more than I thought I would include Berlin - great modern history, good transport links and friendly people, Lisbon - a compact city with a rich heritage and Budapest, although best during weekdays even in December, as too many weekend visitors at the main sites.

Vienna was on my list for this December's 6/7 night city break, but I may now revisit this notion!

Posted by
8094 posts

Put me on the list for Athens. Other than the ruins, it's 4 story concrete apartment buildings all the way to the horizon in every direction.
We find Paris to be incredibly beautiful in the center city, but the people work hard to be disagreeable. Gard du Nord information booth was staffed with 3 twenty something people that wouldn't speak English. The more you smile, the people will be friendlier--but we shouldn't have to resort to that. And the pickpockets in Paris are an accepted profession.
We always stay in Vienna at a great B&B, and love the place. It's the Music City of Europe and just has so many great historical sights and museums. One of my greatest travel nights was in one of the wine gardens out in the Vienna Woods in 1970.
We find Bratislava a great place to rest up after spending a very busy few days in either Budapest or Vienna. It's just 39 miles from Vienna, but we didn't hear a word of German spoken there. And they have a great mall with a long row of outside restaurants overlooking the river.

Posted by
2700 posts

For me, Dublin was very disappointing. I loved Trinity Library, but the rest of the city was pretty blah. On the other hand, I just loved Brussels.

Posted by
433 posts

Interesting question. Good discussion.

Like Ken, I have not visited a city that I would never return to. However, the two cities that did not meet expectations were Vienna and Rome.

I just did not find Vienna notably special or special enough, and I was ready to leave for Salzburg (which I loved).

My reaction to Rome may be in part the result of circumstances--it was the end of our trip, we were tired, I was not feeling especially well, and a tour of the ancient sites was cancelled because of flooding in the Coliseum before our arrival. I also found Rome difficult to navigate--I have a good sense of direction, but frequently got lost in Rome.

I would consider trying Rome again, though on a trip much more structured than I normally do.

And in Rome, I had extraordinary pasta cacio e pepe, which does count.

Posted by
1541 posts

For me it was Prague, for a few reasons. I felt quite threatened by the drunk British stag groups, which were numerous. This also meant that I saw more sex workers than I ever had before (at least to that point in my life). One of the stag groups even lashed out verbally at DH but luckily quickly determined we supported the correct soccer team and backed off. Another reason was overcrowding. This was back in 2004 only a few weeks after they joined the EU. Cannot imagine it now. Lastly we enjoy joining walking tours but found the guide quality very poor overall. That i am sure has improved since then, but back in 2004 it sermed if you spoke English, you could be a guide. I felt bad for this one young woman giving us a tour. She was trying her best with a prepared script but was woefully short of knowledge to answer questions.

Nevertheless I would give Prague another chance if we found ourselves traveling near enough to consider a second visit, but wouldn't plan on one specifically.

Interesting reading other responses; we love Vienna but are only at "ok" with Paris. We were in Paris during an unusually cold February and that coloured the experience for sure.

Posted by
3940 posts

It took me a minute to come up with a place, but upon thinking, hubby and I stayed a few nights in Milan and that was enough. The Duomo was amazing, but otherwise...meh.

Munich didn't do a lot for us, but probably because we only spent a partial day there in a very busy trip, so I'll most likely give it a redo.

I was prepared to love Amsterdam. I liked it. I think my biggest issue was we stayed 5 nights, and of the 4 days, three of them we did day trips, and the day we stayed in Ams itself, it was raining. plus, the weather was cool and I got a really sore throat and wasn't feeling my best. I'm def prepared to return when it is a bit warmer, and spend more time in the city proper instead of daytripping. I think I need to see it on a nice warm late fall evening, with the canals lit up and that'll do it for me. I think that was part of my problem tho - I had high expectations. I had absolutely no expectations for Belgium and I really was pleasantly surprised.

We enjoyed Rome. It was our very first European city. I'm surprised we weren't more overwhelmed - especially after the crazy shuttle ride from the airport, and the sheer 'Rome-ness' of it all. But we had 5 nights, which gave us time to relax. We especially enjoyed our trip to Appia Antica. We returned to Rome for another 5 nights in 2014. And I can def see returning.

Posted by
3514 posts

I guess it is just what you expect that determines if you are disappointed. So far, I have not been in any European city that was a total disappointment.

Sure, there have been museums that were highly praised and when I visited them left with a feeling of "OK, what was the hype all about". There have been restaurants where the service was nearly non existent. There have been cities where it rained so hard and so long my waterproof jacket had rain running down the inside. It is all part of the experience. And as far as Vienna goes, I can't wait to get back there again. But I do hate vienna sausages. Hate. Hate. hate. If I was Vienna, I would sue Hormel (and others) to have the name of my city removed from that nasty canned meat product! ;-)

Posted by
1172 posts

Munich for me. The city was just depressing to me and the people just were rude and cold. No desire to go ever again.

I always find these posts so interesting.... and this is why I love people and travelling and realize that people/locals have such a huge impact on how I react to places ... I just fell in love with Dublin/Ireland overall... The Irish have so much to do with that.

I really like London as a city but my experience with Londoners is very close to my experience with people from Munich and it makes it such that a return is not very high on my list..

I am a native French speaker so my experience in Paris/France tends to be very different than what others share with me.

Love these posts!

Posted by
11247 posts

Vienna was OK for us, but not planning to return, whereas (so far) we could return endlessly to Paris, London, Venezia, Roma.

Small-town wise (Zoe, don't freak out) we thought that two nights in Paestum were two too many. What a boring place beyond the two hours spent in the ruins!

Posted by
8293 posts

The Baltic capitals, Vilnius, Tallin and Riga were boring.

Posted by
1419 posts

Great articles staynsavor! Martin - you almost make me want to give Rome a second chance:)

It is interesting how we all have different perspectives of cities after traveling there! One of the things my husband and I have discovered about ourselves and our travelling style is that we REALLY enjoy small towns / villages much more than cities. We're doing our 2nd bicycle tour next year which really allows you to experience an area in a different way, and is focused on small towns.

Posted by
8934 posts

Paris and Munich were just ok. I'd go visit them again, but don't have an urge to do so. The urine smell everywhere in Paris was so disgusting, even in the entrances to the churches and their stairwells. Munich felt way more rebuilt than Frankfurt and the people are rather snobby.

That said, I quite enjoy other big cities like Milan and Brussels, cause I like walking in their residential neighborhoods, seeing their parks, coming across an ancient church. Rome, I loved and would return in a heartbeat. Someone mentioned Brugge being not as special as expected. Again, it is nice, but I don't have to return, though have been there 3 times due to it being close to Ostend where we were staying for a seminar. For a canal town with ancient houses, Colmar wins my vote rather than Brugge.

Posted by
13809 posts

I really detested Paris after visits in the 70's but in 2014 went there on an RS tour where the tour guide said I will make you love Paris if you've been before and hated it. Well, bless Dimitri because I fell in love and have been back every year and will go twice this year, lol!!

Now, as to disappointment? Amsterdam. This city has some really interesting sights but it just does not work for me. Venice is the runner-up. So I must not like canal cities? Maybe it's the way they are laid out or the crowdedness or....something??

Good thread! Interesting to see people's likes and dislikes!

Posted by
6590 posts

Biggest disappointment: Paris (in part due to my overly-elevated expectations, in part due to the pee and the traffic. Return trips have not changed my impression.)
Biggest nice surprise: Athens (much more fun today than its gaggingly smoggy self of 40 years ago!)

Posted by
3586 posts

To quote a wise friend of mine, "Everyone is different." A good thing, too. Every time I hear someone bash a favorite place of mine, I think, "good, one less person crowding into it."

Among those so far mentioned, we loved Vienna so much, we returned the next year for another week. We thought Brussels was charming. Rome can be a bit abrasive; but it is one of the epic constructions of human history. Venice, true, is unreal and getting more so; but it's truly magical to me.*
Milan doesn't much move me. I'd only go again if I had a next morning flight out. Same for Stockholm. I had the most negative reaction to Naples of any city in Europe.
*.We never travel to Europe in the summer, so we avoid some of the downsides mentioned.

Posted by
14482 posts

@ Pat...It is all so subjective, isn't it, when it comes to one's likes and dislikes on cities. Lyon is compared all the places in 10 countries I have visited struck a negative chord. I have encountered the urine situation in Paris, more on recent trips, (yes, I did run into the pee smell on this last trip at Gare de l'Est) but not very often and not as pervasive as some would lead you to believe, . It's just a matter of luck/bad luck if you meet with the pee smell.

Still, that's hardly a reason for me to drop Paris from a top priority return. C'est ça Paris ! I totally agree that if you are a fluent or near fluent French speaker it makes a big difference visiting Paris.

Posted by
4761 posts

I've been to Vienna 3 times, and really enjoyed the time we spent there. Perhaps we've been lucky, but I don't recall any service issues. I DO recall that I felt much more relaxed getting around the city than in a lot of other places.

Absolutely HATED Rome on my first visit, and swore I'd never return. It felt too hot, dirty and crowded - especially crowded. Later I found out that the city had been inundated by pilgrims to the Vatican, because the Pope was canonizing 3 new saints that week. Traffic was practically gridlocked. Fast forward a few years and DH and I were back (at his insistance). And it was a night and day difference. We had an incredible time - and have been back a couple more times since.

The only city that I really don't want to return to is Naples. After only 1 day, I couldn't get out of there fast enough.

Posted by
17639 posts

The one and only place we have ever been and wanted to leave early was .................... VIENNA.

BUT, this is a ridiculously subjective question. Other's love it and there isn't a right or wrong.

Posted by
3940 posts

I can't recall ever smelling urine enough in 4 visits Paris that it left an impression...now, the vomit on the metro car was another thing entirely, not to mention the broken alcohol bottles littering the steps of Sacre Coeur.

Also, I've seen many say that marijuana smoke wasn't noticeable in Amsterdam, but I most certainly did smell it, on multiple occasions when we were in the city to wander (along with noticing it in Haarlem, and this was not just as we were passing the smoke shops), and I am of the feeling that it (and the everyday cigarette smoke) is what contributed to my sore aching throat, because as soon as we left Amsterdam and moved to Dordrecht, it cleared right up.

Posted by
1419 posts

James - "How often do you have to smell urine while on vacation for it to leave an impression?" that made me laugh! I'm not sure I know the answer. I know that this is a global problem. I think here in the states it's more associated with the homeless population. I was recently in upscale Palo Alto with my grandsons, and the caltrain station there was pretty rancid! So I know this is a global problem, but I tell you it REALLY left an impression on me in Paris! I don't know if it was the pee smell, but the whole city seemed very dirty. My first visit there I had just spent quite a bit of time in London, and London seemed immaculate compared to Paris.

Posted by
2599 posts

Vienna is a big favorite of mine, visited in 2014 and this past April and both stays were fantastic--the first time was all about The Third Man and art, the second time just a refresher and to see a couple of exhibits and museums I'd missed. Both times I rode the Riesenrad at mid-afternoon on a weekday and had maybe 5 others in the cabin with me. I think, as with most tourist attractions, it's a matter of timing and luck. I ate in restaurants and never had a bad meal or poor service. It's a beautiful city that really appeals to me on many levels and thus I will return many more times.

I can't think of any city I've visited thus far that I wouldn't want to return to, seems I've made only good choices so far over my past 7 trips. Prague was a bit overwhelming with the crowds but it's so spectacularly beautiful and interesting that I will certainly not hesitate to return at some point.

Posted by
17639 posts

Jill, the worst i ever experienced was the subway system in Moscow a few winters back. Urine, vomit, drunks, homeless, desperate old soldiers in tattered old uniforms; we saw it all. You couldn't walk without stepping in something. I was embarrassed that my wife had to experience it. Even the Bolshoi stunk of human sweat as did many of the shops. I remember one near Lenin's tomb we had to get out of before we vomited from the stench.

Posted by
709 posts

I'm not quite fluent in French but I still immensely enjoyed my time in Paris in October 2016. I think my smile and my attempts at French solicited sympathy. In many cases Parisians would take the time to coach me in how to proceed in the conversations. I know my experiences were due in part to being a talkative cheerful type of guy, but I was really impressed with the widespread goodwill I experienced when I attempted speaking French first. Maybe there's hope for me in Italy or Germany?

Posted by
483 posts

We loved Vienna. My wife describes herself as someone who wants to see beautiful things. I say we're museum-niks as I enjoy expressions of culture, old and modern. And we are both food and pastry folks, so we had a wonder of things to see and do in Vienna. And we were there on Austria Day, when everything was closed (had to get coffee at Starbucks), and had a grand day, including the Prater. Different strokes for different folks.

Prague was, for us, a comedy of difficulty. Tram tickets, huge crowds, scam artists, odd schedules, and a big ticket on our last day. And the food was uneven and uninteresting, aside from some good croissants. I'm sure others unlocked it better, but I won't return.

Sedlec and Kutna Hora were experienced as a day trip, and had such a fight with my wife there that I thought we were gonna have an instant divorce. We didn't, but I don't wanna risk it, so never back there again.

Posted by
3218 posts

What an interesting topic! Personally I loved Vienna and would love to go back. I finally started liking Paris when we stayed in the 10th Arr away from the major tourist sites and urine smells. My greatest disappointment in Europe was the Cinque Terre. My expectations were too high, I guess. I was expecting magic and got the crowds of Yosemite Valley on a Saturday afternoon instead.

Posted by
235 posts

In 2011, on a 30-day trip to Spain, we spent five nights in Barcelona, mostly because a friend was going to join us there and that was his Dream City. Wifey and I already had low expectations of Barcelona, but not even those were met. Easily could have made it a 2-day, 3-night trip. We are game to visit just about anywhere in Spain (sans the resorts), but Barcelona won't be making it onto any of our itineraries this century.

Posted by
235 posts

Fred, we've been to Paris twice, for a total of 11 days. No recall of the urine smells. But your hometown of S.F., wow, I thought maybe people were splashing it on themselves as a cologne. Brutal. Or maybe those were just the Giants fans.

Posted by
85 posts

Good discussion. When I first went to Europe almost 20 yr ago (BOE tour), I thought I'd like Italy best, but have not been back there since. I guess action (or inaction) speaks louder than words. I did love Paris , and went back I think four times, and could speak good "tourist French." But on the last trip I woke up one morning and hit a mental wall...I had just had enough of it, did not want to communicate in French anymore, and decided I was done with it. I spent the last few days enjoying the wine and eating from the Chinese take away. I haven't been back since and don't intend to go back to France. But I don't regret any of it...and don't recall any urine odors.

Posted by
433 posts

In an earlier response, I said that I had not been to a city in Europe that I would not return to. That statement was wrong.

There is a city that I would not return to--and that has not been named yet. St. Petersburg. Yes, it has incredible sites. I am not sorry, for several reasons, that I went once. But I didn't care for the people, though my exposure to them was relatively limited, and I simply found the city and country very depressing. The trip would have to be nearly free for me to return Russia.

Posted by
503 posts

What an interesting thread! When I first visited Paris, in 1978, I loved it. I loved it again in 1980. But, in the 90's, when I went back three times, I was so sad because it had changed so much. It got dirtier, felt unsafe and of course, the crowds ( and I realize that I, as a tourist contribute to that). I haven't been back since and that is sad.
Rome, Florence and London, love them all, but are so crowded now that I really would think twice about returning.
Biggest disappointment though for a first time visit? Brussels. I don't know what I expected, but I sure didn't like it.

Posted by
11507 posts

David's :

"the more you smile the people would be friendlier , but we shouldn't have to resort to that "

Really ? Why not ?

Posted by
7010 posts

Agree with Pat. I never thought of a friendly smile when greeting people (friends and strangers alike) was something I had to 'resort to', just seems to come naturally to me. And people generally respond in kind.

Posted by
14811 posts

I've learned I like smaller cities/towns/villages over cities so unless I have never been there, and except for London, I don't have plans to go back to any city other than to change planes or trains.

I believe that to really experience a country, I need to get away from the tourist areas of big cities

I've also learned, I no longer like crowds.

Posted by
3586 posts

I can't resist coming back to add more. I think many people are disappointed in a city because they've heard it's "must-see, " and they haven't looked any deeper. More than once, for example, I've read questions here on the general lines of, "I'm going to Florence, and I'm not interested in art. What should I see?" While there's more to Florence than art, such a person would probably do themselves and the world a favor by going elsewhere.
If you are on a tour, of course, you have no choice about some cities; however, if you are traveling independently, it seems only sensible to do some research to find out what's on offer in the places you are considering.
As far as the less pleasant aspects of urban existence go, again I think you have to focus on why you chose that destination. The first time we visited Paris, in the early '90's, the problems mentioned above were evident along with a LOT of dog excrement on the sidewalks. (I thinks that has improved.). I was thrilled by the vast array of art, the majestic and historic buildings, the profusion of wonderful patisseries,. I was just careful where I put my feet down.

Posted by
17639 posts

mlhuff73, i think he meant the "Man of Fire" mural. Too often those that disdain the typical, have seen all of the typical. Sort of, do as i say, not as i did?

Posted by
36 posts

Crowds are annoying in many cities but I must defend Prague. Agree, the mid-afternoon crowds when we arrived were ghastly and very uncomfortable, especially in front of the astronomical clock and on the Charles Bridge where one could barely move.
So, for the next 3 mornings I woke up before sunrise and walked the deserted streets. I had no hassles at all (although it is easy to get lost) and took some amazing crowd-free photos. On one day we took a good long walk away from the city centre and up the hill to the beautiful Strahov Monastery. Again, crowds were low. Another outing involved a 45 minute train trip to Karstejn Castle where, after a 20 minute walk in the woods, we found a charming eatery with Czech beer.
So, IMO, if you can adapt to the conditions you can overcome most obstacles and enjoy most cities....................but I will not revisit Vienna!

Posted by
380 posts

Just got back from Vienna and I adored it. As a New Yorker, I had no problems with the restaurant service. Quickly realized you need to figure out what you're ordering and be ready to order. If you need anything else, be ready to flag someone down. But I hate it when servers in restaurants hover. It could be a big-city thing.

I found Dublin to be quite sad and depressing--definitely a postcolonial aftereffect. I liked Berlin for a lot of reasons, but it's not pretty or charming at all. But that's to be expected with its history.

I was afraid I'd be disappointed with Paris but I loved it as well.

I definitely recommend traveling at non-peak times. I hate being in a pack of tourists and will never take a tour or go on a cruise for this reason.

Posted by
4637 posts

I don't remember if I was ever disappointed by a city in Europe or anywhere else. I divide cities and towns into three categories: Exceed my expectation, meet my expectation, don't meet expectation. I build my expectation by studying many sources and then when visit compare reality and expectation. So that means that city which did not meet expectation (because it was too high) could still be more beautiful than the city which exceeded expectation (because it was low). Most cities met my expectation. The cities which exceeded it: the winner is Gdansk. Then Warsaw, Budapest, Venice. From small towns despite having high expectation I would name Hallstatt and Cesky Krumlov. Did not meet expectation: Berlin and Munich are crossing my mind. They are still world class cities but hype was bigger than reality (IMHO). From small towns Rothenburg crosses my mind. Expectation was too high.

Posted by
36 posts

I felt like everywhere we went smelled like urine.
http://inbedwiththefrench.com/2015/04/20/the-french-art-of-peeing-in-public-a-popular-parisian-pastime/
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/02/world/europe/paris-turns-to-flower-growing-toilet-to-fight-public-urination.html

This is an issue in many cities but the article suggests that in Paris it has become a challenge and badge of honour for offenders to find the most clever and creative way of so doing. So why just a piss-weak (sorry, couldn't resist) 35E fine? Here in Sydney the fine is $500 AUD for "offensive conduct" which hopefully deters repeat offences.

Posted by
7049 posts

"Greatest" disappointment? Meaning one of several?

I'm fortunate to say I've never been disappointed with any city I've visited in Europe, including Vienna. I would say that, on this forum, most people seem disappointed in Naples (I loved Naples too, warts and all). I guess the key to not being disappointed is not to have outsized expectations and to realize that the cities are living cities that suffer from the same ills as any other of similar size...I find it hard to believe that an entire city has nothing to offer but merely disappointment. If I had to name some disappointments, it would be seeing (an abundance of) trash and lack of care for the people, animals, and the environment that one sees in poorer countries/cities (largely outside of Western Europe, but includes southern Europe). It does also make me bummed out to see huge homeless colonies.

Posted by
915 posts

Munich - been there twice and found the place has a strange vibe about it.
Dublin - great library, friendly people but overall a bit dull. But perhaps if I'd had a guided tour of the town I would appreciate it more.

I was in Vienna September 11th, and we had to stay an extra week because we were unable to enter the U.S. People were very kind and we went to places not originally on the itinerary to fill our days (including the English language cinema). I'll always have a soft spot in my heart for Vienna.

And visit Paris in the winter for fewer smells! :)

Posted by
17639 posts

Rachel, you hit on an important reality. It's about the people. There are a couple of destinations that will always remain among our favorites because of someone or many someones we met. The rest of what the location had to offer failed to be important at that moment. Then there are a few, that while spectacular only bring to memory some nasty situation; and it sours any thought of return. I try to filter those sorts of things out of my thinking when i comment on a place. Otherwise Rome would be at the bottom of my list and an unheard of place called Trigrad would be at the top. If i were going to give advice to someone I would say the first trip to Europe should be: London, Paris and Rome. The Second; Jerusalem, Istanbul and Sofia (okay not all in Europe). Then with that education they can plan their time for their interests much more easily.

Posted by
36 posts

Very true about the people. Turkey generally, and Istanbul in particular, will always be special to me. Although historically, aesthetically and gastronomically the place is awesome the Turks are one of the friendliest people on earth. Despite the recent terrorist issues I would be happy to revisit Turkey a 3rd time. It's no coincidence that Istanbul has never been mentioned adversely in this thread.

Posted by
4637 posts

I agree with James on the selection of cities for first timers in Europe: London, Paris, Rome and also on the second tier: Istanbul, Jerusalem (part in Europe and not in Europe) but it's mystery how Sofia made it there. Before Sofia I would include many, many other cities of Europe. What about Prague, Budapest, St. Petersburg, Vienna, Venice, Ljubljana, Luzern, Krakow, Gdansk, Florence etc, etc. And Plovdiv (also in Bulgaria) I would rate before Sofia.

Posted by
17639 posts

cbyrne1953; I never got comfortable in Istanbul. I doubt I would make any great effort to return. But my experience is just my experience and how a person responds to Istanbul I think will say a lot about what else they may enjoy so I think it ought to be high on a person's list.

Posted by
3940 posts

As for revisiting places...well, we absolutely loved Cinque Terre when we went in 2008, so much we returned in 2012 after the flooding to 'do our part' and spend some tourist money. Well, if 08 had been like 2012, we'd never have returned. I can say I've not been disappointed more with a return visit. I'm not even sure I'd recommend CT now to someone unless they were going early or late shoulder season. We were there almost the exact same days in September. Every time I go back to Venice, I love it even more. CT...most likely never again (unless in April or something like that).

Posted by
4256 posts

Dublin, Brussels-haven't been to Vienna

Posted by
17639 posts

Ilja, London and Paris and Rome because they are the centers of Western culture. I chose Sofia because it is so endemic of what you can find in a lot of the old Soviet East, and Jerusalem and Istanbul because they are significant and unique cultures when compared to Europe. I was trying to put together a sampling menu so i wanted to find extremes.

Posted by
483 posts

So why just a piss-weak (sorry, couldn't resist) 35E fine? Here in Sydney the fine is $500 AUD for "offensive conduct" which hopefully deters repeat offences.

Hah. In many parts of the US, they hit you with a public indecency charge that makes you a class three sexual offender for what might be the rest of your life. Sucks to be the pisser who gets caught.

Posted by
3039 posts

I've been to London several times, and each time, vow to never return. Very crowded, the most expensive city I have ever visited. It does have the British Museum, one of the great houses of stolen stuff on the planet. Why go to Greece, when the most important parts of Greece are in the BM? I love Paris, vienna, Budapest, Zagreb, Beograd, Bucharest, and would return to any of those (and probably will return again next year). But not London.

Posted by
14482 posts

So very true, Tim, on the pee smell in parts of SF. That is/was compounded by the drought. That has been declared over. No doubt that SF has that urine smell in public places.

Posted by
368 posts

Disliked Naples, but am (gasp) not a fan of Italy in general. Been twice and probably won't go back. The city that surprised me was Paris. I fell in love one my first trip and am headed back for my third visit in December.

I worked in San Francisco so have become nose blind to stink.😝😝😝

Posted by
14482 posts

"...nose blind to stink (in SF)." How true, how eloquent!

Posted by
9404 posts

My disappointed list:
Amsterdam (graffitti everywhere, 100s of cigarette butts around trees, garbage floating in canals), Munich, Rouen, Honfleur, Caen, Siena and Capri.

I love Paris... can never get enough.

Posted by
589 posts

Geneva, but that was my fault for being young and not doing the research before choosing to go there.
Munich, been there 3 times and find it boring (just my taste).

Posted by
483 posts

If you do real research, and have really thought deeply about the place you're going, can you really be disappointed? I suppose. Considering how tired wife and I were by the time we got to Venice, and the not very bright travelers we were then, maybe Venice was my most disappointing. I think I wasn't really expecting the hoards, the lines, and the lost ness. If you are prone to mild anxiety, even the thought that you're on an island isn't that reassuring, as you might focus on the confusion of streets, your lack of language, and your inability to even describe your hotel, much less find it.

We're much smarter now. And so we're going back. And instead of it being days 9-12 on a 14 day vacation, it's days 1-4. With a better list of things to do, see and enjoy. And mo' money.

OP: Maybe Vienna isn't for you. As I said upthread, I loved it, and we did Riesenrad on a national holiday, and yes, when we were stopped near the top, I read the speech off my phone, and imagined snuffing those dots for ten thousand euros a piece. And we were there on the national holiday. But, as Bad Santa said, "They can't all be winners, kid."

Posted by
5239 posts

It does have the British Museum, one of the great houses of stolen stuff on the planet.

A great deal of the exhibits in the museum either wouldn't exist now or would be in the hands of private owners.

One can argue infinitely about whether the Elgin Marbles were stolen or given but without their removal it is unlikely that they would be here today.

Posted by
5239 posts

I can understand why some people felt that Munich was boring but personally I loved my time there but that's because I was there for a long weekend with mates and we spent every evening enjoying various beer gardens and the days either swimming in nearby lakes, visiting Salzburg or just generally soaking up the atmosphere in the city centre. It lacks the variety of sights that other cities have so it all depends on what type of visit you have in mind.

Posted by
5239 posts

I can understand why some people felt that Munich was boring but personally I loved my time there but that's because I was there for a long weekend with mates and we spent every evening enjoying various beer gardens and the days either swimming in nearby lakes, visiting Salzburg or just generally soaking up the atmosphere in the city centre. It lacks the variety of sights that other cities have so it all depends on what type of visit you have in mind.

Posted by
483 posts

With JC on Munich. Wife and I enjoyed it, did not spend a lot of time drinking. We did spend a really glorious day on the Zugspitze, sledding, drinking, enjoying the wonderment of a tall mountain like neither of us had ever been on (previous high for me was Mount Marcy in NY). Some interesting sites, like the Asam Church... some biggers ones, like the Residenz (though I could see that being disappointing if you'd already seen some of the better castles around) , the Alte Pinakothek, couple of real churches worth visiting, and a pleasant ambiance, post Oktoberfest. We really enjoyed 4 nights there.

Posted by
17 posts

This thread is futile.Everybody has different tastes.Millions of people visit and love Paris etc.However,some people hate Paris.Rome doesnt charm me like Paris.Its personal preference. Why would you not visit Rome with its history and museums?Ditto for Paris,Florence,Venice etc..Dont base your travels on other people's personal opinions.You have to see these places for yourself.Thats how you learn.

Posted by
12172 posts

Disappointments:

Biggest - Madrid. I like history so I'm drawn to the medieval core of a city. I think most European visitors also find their favorite sights in the old center of cities. Madrid doesn't have one. It's about the same age as Baltimore because the King at the time moved the capitol from Toledo. Madrid has the Prado, one of the great Art galleries, and some nice parks. Without the old center, however, it's not for me (I really like Toledo though).

Frankfurt. German cities had to decide how to rebuild after WWII. Frankfurt decided to go modern while most cities replaced what was there before. It became known as the Manhattan of Germany. Again I like old centers so Frankfurt wasn't for me. I understand they've rebuilt some of their old center since I visited in '01, maybe because they were getting similar feedback from other visitors?

Dublin. My favorite things in Ireland are friendly people, traditional music and small town pubs. Dublin is like most cities, it has some of the best sights. Like most big cities however, it lacks the friendliness found in the country. The Temple Bar area was my least favorite place because it's filled with big, noisy, meat-market bars that you can find in any large city anywhere in the world. I could understand someone visiting only Dublin and deciding they really didn't like Ireland.

Posted by
14482 posts

I have not visited Rome ...not yet. I had/have other pressing priorities...Paris, Vienna, Gdansk, Budapest and a host of other places big and small in Germany, Poland, Austria, CR, France.

Posted by
32519 posts

Very few have I ever disliked.

Edinburgh let me down by always raining every day I went, but not as much as Ft William which was even wetter. But not even the Scots - who rule most everything - can control the weather.

Posted by
672 posts

@cbyrne1953 and @Scott: Sorry you are sour on Vienna. My collective experience was totally different and much broader, having lived in Vienna for one year in the early 1990s . Vienna is a fantastic and very safe city, with the best public transportation system of any European city I have ever visited. And the new Hauptbanhof is a great improvement over the old Sudbanhof. I have returned there many times since, as recently as 2015, and will visit again in October. Vienna is rich in history, and has great food (pastries!), coffee, and cafes, as well as world class music as the home of many of great Classical composers. The many museums, palaces, and churches, as well as the Central Cemetery, are worth visiting. I recall many wonderful walks in the enchanting Vienna Woods, easily reachable by bus or tram, and several visits to the Spanish Riding School to watch the Lipizzaners perform. Also remember pushing the baby stroller around the Augarten many times. The wine was 'meh', but the experience of spending an entire evening with family and friends at a heuriger (NOT in Grinzing) enjoying dinner was one of the truly great pleasures of life. Our only bad experiences involved a particularly unfriendly (to 'Auslanders' only) cashier at the local Meinl (grocery store), a post office shortchanger (we were warned), and the police (I had to get a visa for my newborn daughter at the 9th Bezirk Police Station - at that time, filled with refugees from the Bosnian War). The issue wasn't that I acted like an 'ugly American'; the people were just not friendly and/or cranky. But these negative experiences were very few and far between. Lastly, since @cbyrne mentioned 'The Third Man', I don't know if you were aware that Vienna is also home to the only museum dedicated to a motion picture -- The Third Man Museum. You will be amazed by what Gerhard and Karin have collected and have on display. I also never get tired of watching that great film! Oh, and for a city that disappointed.....Venice hands down. Disneyland on the lagoon. One day there was more than enough for me, and I have no desire to ever go back there. But I know many readers of this Forum love Venice, and obviously some despise Vienna, so to each his/her own.

Posted by
262 posts

I guess I would have to go with Milan, first off I was pretty shocked by the lack of English speaking people there including our cabdriver who took us from the train station to our hotel. Not to come off as an ugly American but I was thinking that Milan was such an international city considering it's the fashion capital of Europe and the economic capital of Italy. The meals we had a couple of restaurants there were average at best and that we did enjoy some of the scenery including the Duomo and the galleria I really wasn't blown away by anything. We will be giving it another try next year as we will spend one day in Milan before heading home from Lake Como. Maybe I will look into other parts of town that might be more interesting

Posted by
3428 posts

Paris- when we visited it was dirty, and the people were rude. I just could not 'connect' with any part of it.

San Francisco- same as above, but add tacky.
London, on the other hand, has always thrilled me. So much to discover and I instantly connected with the 'vibe' of the city. All of Scotland - the same. We have visited London more than 40 times and Scotland almost as much. I'd go back today if I could.

Posted by
85 posts

Yes Toni, I understand Paris has gone downhill. I wouldn't know as I was last there in 2004. However, I have a friend who was recently there and cut her stay short after seeing all the mattresses and garbage in the streets. I would agree with you as to SF; if you want urine smell go there. I'm sure that Silicone Valley could easily come up with a billion to fix up this mess, but I guess that's just for chumps (i.e. Taxpayers)