Tell me about marrying a European?

First of all, you need to change your title. Marrying a French woman is nothing like marrying a German woman or a Spanish woman or an Italian woman, etc. This is your first stumbling block, thinking that they are all the same.
Join some expat forums like from The Local, or Internations.

If you want her to get US Resident status, then you can either get married first and apply for residence afterward or you can use the fiancée visa application and then get married within three months of your fiancée's arrival to the US with that visa. Each process uses a different set of paperwork and might take 6 months or more. See links and instructions at https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/immigrate/family/fiance.html. I understand that you don't want to get married and then be blocked from seeing each other easily. The fiancée visa avoids that uncertainty, because you would get her all cleared first. If you want to live in France, then their consulate would require a similar procedure. If you're good at filling out forms and writing letters, then you should not need a lawyer (at least for the US part), though some people do use them.

Without the correct paperwork, she or you could not work in the other country, nor stay more than 90 days as a tourist. See also:

https://travel.state.gov/content/visas/en/visit/visa-waiver-program.html for her

https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/go/schengen-fact-sheet.html for you

Meeting family is certainly a recommended step, and a good time to take a lot of photos to document your relationship.

First and foremost, congratulations and happiness to both of you.
I have no idea how long and what hurdles you will have to go through to get French citizenship, that is a question of French nationality law about which I know nothing.
But, once you are married to an EU citizen (and of course France is part of the EU so all French citizens are also EU citizens), you both will have the legal right under EU law which she already has; to travel, live, work and start a business anywhere in the EU+Norway+Switzerland.
Whether she (with you) has a right to live and work in the USA is a question of US immigration law, about which I am equally clueless.

Your big decision, where do you two want to spend the rest of your lives together?

One thing about living in a new country, it will be different. Not better, not worse, just different ways of doing things. Enjoy.

Brad,

This is a BIG decision.

No one can really tell you what it's like to be married to a European.
You will have to decide if this is the right person for you, and as you well know, it takes time to REALLY get to know someone.

Long distance relationships are very challenging...

So... Take your time getting to know each other before making any serious commitments.

Best wishes to you!

Seriously - if you haven't gotten around to learning any French, it would be wise to do so. You'll be a crashing bore to everyone around you if you have to rely on your spouse or someone else to speak French for you.

Brad, your US congressperson probably has an immigration specialist on staff. This will be helpful when/if you want your spouse to have residential status in the US; the congressperson can provide a letter in your behalf, and the interview may be a lot easier.

1) watch the (un)reality show "90 Day Fiance" to see the effects of cultural differences. And families of US persons being sure the fiance is "only doing it for the green card."
2) as far as I know, you as the spouse of a EU citizen could get a renewable permit to live and work in the EU. Annual (?) certification required that you are still married.
And the IRS still expects to get its tax on your worldwide income.
Having done a late-in-life remarriage, I would counsel getting a prenuptial agreement so everything is out in the open -- and so the kids all know where they stand. Attorneys can also advise on inheritance laws regarding non-citizen beneficiaries (both countries.)

Brad,
First, I'm so happy for you that you two have found each other. But, yes.......take the time to REALLY get to know one another. I don't want to sound like your Aunt Gladys, but this sounds "all so sudden."

Whether marrying someone overseas or someone next door, I usually give the advice of: Be sure to travel internationally with each other BEFORE getting married. And, the more delays, cancelled flights, bad weather, etc. that happen on the trip the BETTER. Why? Because then you will likely see one another in a very stressful situation, which likely (not always, as you might be just putting on your good-behavior faces) will bring out the worst of someone. Since it is a long-distance romance, I might add: travel back and forth WITH each other a few times.

But, with the average divorce rate (I think it is still) over 50%, really getting to know anyone/anywhere/at any age is wise............and with families on two different continents, that will only add to the stress (which will likely increase over time).

If it is meant to be, and if you both truly love each other, there is no reason to rush. Have you had a major disagreement (or fight) through which you have had to work out issues/compromise.....(and not where you will live, etc.)....I mean something more irritating.

MIght not be the advice you are looking for, but it could avoid a posting a year or three down the road asking about divorcing internationally.

On the happy side, travel the world together.....build some more shared memories.....find out more about each other's past and each other's dreams for the future. Make a list of what drives you absolutely mad about her. Warning: If you see her as absolutely perfect with no major flaws, you don't know her well enough yet.

And, yes, it would help to speak fluent French, if you don't already. Likely she speaks beautiful English.

Keep us posted. A Forum Romance adds a new spark that we will all want to follow, especially now that Downton Abbey is no longer.

Thanks for bringing us into your (on-line) inner circle :)

We know a few American/European couples. The Europeans are two French woman, one Italian man, two British men, one British woman. Four of these couples live in the U.S. We also know a German/British couple living in Britian. They look like everyone else's marriages to me with one exception, children. There is tension in a few of these marriages about how much the children should be raised as duel citizens. I don't mean legal citizenship, I mean identity. I'd talk about that before marrying if you intend to have children together.

Laura is spot on about documenting your relationship if you will want her to become a US resident so you can stay here together without counting days. Proof of your relationship goes hand in hand with all the other paperwork and is a requirement for the process. And it never hurts to have more pictures of your loved ones!

Congratulations!

I cannot offer practical advice just good wishes for many happy adventures!

I remember your post about meeting your French friend. I'm so glad you found each other and both realized you could have something special.

One thing to check on, if you haven't already, is how the non-native will handle medical insurance when living in the other's country. I know Medicare will generally not cover you in France. Beyond that, I have no clue.

Bravo! I know of several Americans (white, Asian-American, ) who married European women (Polish, Austrian, German, French), all lived here, one couple chose to live in Austria. Attending a French wedding is nice, a great cultural experience.

Enjoy your new found happiness! My husband is European (Croatian) and we only had a few cultural difficulties because of, and don't laugh, food. Me being of Irish descent we never even used pepper, never mind all strange foods they ate such as squid, octopus, polenta, and especially garlic, ugh. But I learned to love it all, except for the garlic. he does all the exotic cooking, I stick with my stews, meat and potatoes.

But do try to learn the language. Chexbres is correct. I am not fluent by any means but can find my way around. When we are talking to another couple I can follow the conversation but in a group I am lost. The younger members of the family can speak English but not the older ones, like 40 and above. I haven't given up on getting better.

All in all, the differences are what make our marriage so much fun. That is why we love to travel and see new places and meet new people. If we were all the same, how boring would the world be! Even after 42 years together, 35 married, we joke about "that's the European in him" when he does something strange. Believe me some things he will never Americanize, like his love of soccer and wearing his speedo.

Good luck and much happiness.

1. Does she want to immigrate to and become a resident of the US? See https://www.uscis.gov/family/family-us-citizens/spouse/bringing-spouses-live-united-states-permanent-residents

2. Do you want to immigrate to and become a resident of France? See: http://www.frenchlaw.com/Immigration_Visas.htm

3. There may be tax issues depending upon where the both of you choose to reside. Consult a tax expert.

4. What are your respective financial and family circumstances? Consider a pre-nuptial agreement. Consult a lawyer.

My only suggestion--hire immigration attorneys on both ends.

You might be able to do all the paperwork yourself but a good immigration attorney knows the tricks to get it done quicker. Just check them out ahead of time to make sure they don't have a reputation of trying to get sham visas.

I don't believe there is a need for lawyers for immigration. I know things have changed since we got married in 1981, but we were only 24 and figured it out on our own, no help from anyone, remember no internet then. We got married in city hall in NYC, left for Yugloslavia 3 days later, by ship, and registered our marriage there. Stayed for 6 months. Upon our return, we filed our paperwork at Federal Plaza and he had his green card appointment about 10 months later. It was probably more complicated then because it was still the old Yugoslavia but I don't remember any problems. Just like planning a trip on your own, do the research and you should be able to figure it out.

Of course, if you need lawyers because of property, IRA accounts, stock, etc. that is a different story. At 24 all we owned were our clothes, didn't even have a car. Oh to be so unburdened with adult responsibilities again.....

Be prepared for odd things to become important. How and when will you celebrate Christmas? The 24th or the 25th? What is the correct thing to have for Christmas dinner? How will you celebrate birthdays? Can you buy ingredients for a proper Thanksgiving? What is the best way to celebrate NYE? Do the extended families like both of you? Do you take off your shoes when you come home or not? How to do laundry? How to wash dishes? Where to go on vacation when families live overseas. Will you spend every vacation just visiting family? What to do about elder parents? How was school and education different and why was yours or hers better?

I was so surprised by these differences when I moved to Germany to marry a German man. I wasn't expecting them. Patience and understanding and finally learning enough German to talk about everything are the most important things. Having a group of expats to commiserate with once in a while, is vital. Laughter and a good sense of humor will get you through anything.

You don't need immigration lawyers to get your residency visa. Just follow the rules as listed on the French embassy website. As already suggested, make use of expat forums.
http://www.thelocal.fr/

If you want to join Internations, send me a message and I will invite you as it is an invitation only website/forum. Invaluable to anyone who lives overseas no matter where in the world or from what country. You get the ins and outs of where you will be living.

I forgot to mention that you should begin immersing yourself in French culture, as well as learning the language. France is a "whole 'nother country" - and living here is not the same as you might imagine.

Divorce can be complicated in France. Why not look into a civil union, which is easier to dissolve, should you want to: pacte civil de solidarité (Pacs)

If you're certain you want to marry, since you have property, kids, and are still working (?), I'd strongly advise hiring an international immigration attorney along with an international tax attorney. Things are complicated when it comes to successions in France, and you'd want to have everything in order. I wouldn't try to go it alone - you'll need legal help.

You won't be allowed to work in France unless you qualify for a work visa and can find a job. If you continue to work from the US, you will have to adhere to FATCA regulations and must declare all revenue income which will be taxed in both France and the US - frankly, this will leave you with not much money.

Purchasing property can be expensive, though the two property taxes are probably less than you pay now. You might think about renting for awhile before deciding to purchase property.

Re: learning a language: falling in love with someone who speaks it is the best way!

Thanks for the comments so far. The fiance visa may be perfect for now. I'll have to check it out.

I think the biggest worry is the time limits, at least before we're married. She has friends who have been denied entry because they came too often, even though they were under the time limit.

Some additional info:

1. She has income that doesn't require her to work in the US, but she does need to be back in France - sometimes to work, sometimes for medical care. Apparently she needs to keep an address there, pay her taxes there and live there at least some of the time to keep her status the way she wants it.

2. Her parents are still on their own, but in their 80's, so she can't completely forget about them. Her son is done with med school and an intern now, so on his own. I think she'd like to have a place near him when he starts having children. She has a big home in Normandie that she wants to sell, then get something small to keep. She wants to shop for something with me, which means we'll travel quite a bit, to see different areas of the country, before choosing. For the time being she can live on a family home in Provence (it has multiple houses on one property).

3. I'm still working and have two adult children and my 85 year old mother living in my home. My mom has Alzheimers so I don't expect to make major changes until she can't stay with me anymore and my last two kids have left the nest - maybe three years. Whether we'll marry before that depends on circumstances but we're not planning to get married for probably another year or more at the earliest - again circumstances will dictate a lot - and there's always the question of whether it all works out. I'm optimistic about that, which is why I'm asking.

4. I think we both hope to spend part of the year in the US and part in France, to keep in touch with family and travel in both countries. Eventually I want a sailboat more than I want a place in the US. We may just rent when we're here and have only a small permanent home somewhere in France.

Anything in there that might run into a "can't do that" law? It's a first for me.

Jo,

Funny, I met a French man who I now keep in touch with. He said something similar, "First lesson, French women are crazy." :-)

Supposedly I'm about half way there on French language. I can follow a conversation but can't really form a proper sentence, in a timely manner, to carry on a conversation.

In Miami, I met a group of French people. I've got some work to do.

But, once you are married to an EU citizen (and of course France is
part of the EU so all French citizens are also EU citizens), you both
will have the legal right under EU law which she already has; to
travel, live, work and start a business anywhere in the
EU+Norway+Switzerland.

Sorry but this is not the case. If you marry an EU citizen they are entitled to apply for a reunification visa, in most cases this will be accepted, but many people in the UK and some in Switzerland have been rejected. Furthermore, the non-EU citizen's rights are fully dependant on the EU citizen, meaning for instance you can not work outside the country granting the visa unless your EU partner moves with you. Nor can you travel for longer periods within the Schengen area unaccompanied etc..

Your situation is really more complicated than a travel forum can handle.
In fact, it's more complicated than an expat forum can handle.
You need an immigration lawyer as well as an international tax attorney.

It might make you feel good to air your thoughts here, but you won't receive any concrete information - and will probably be misled by some well-meaning folks who have not been in your precise situation.

Perhaps you should not bother with visas for the time being, just come and go for 89 days within a 6 month period as permitted under the Schengen agreement, and see what happens.
Or, you could apply at your Embassy in the US for a one-year visa - with no marital strings attached - and stay a year. Proof of self-support, insurance, and a place to live is basically all you need, then just a quick medical exam when you arrive. Might be the easiest way to go about things, for now.

Taxes on "secondary homes" - which many people own - have reached astronomical levels. Most people are trying to sell them, rather than pay the taxes. Depending on where the property is located, it might not be easy.

I don't know what you meant by "She has friends who have been denied entry because they came too often, even though they were under the time limit."

I suspect that there was some miscalculation involved in the permitted Schengen time-line. Perhaps this took place before 2009, when things were a little more fluid. But then passports had mandatory microchips installed and were scanned at airports and border crossings. Before 2009, nobody was too clear about the regulations, but it's clear now if you go to the government websites and avoid outdated blogs, etc.

My advice - get thee to a lawyer, for innumerable reasons...

I believe the "she has friends who were denied entry because they came too often" may refer to French friends who were denied entry into the US. Too-frequent visits can trigger a red flag because the immigration officer suspects the person may be working, not simply visiting as a tourist.

Yes, what Lola said. My girlfriend referred to people who came several times in a short period of time. I think she said three trips within three or four months, even though they hadn't exceeded the number of days they were technically allowed to visit.

She's worried that if she pushes her time limit, she'll be denied entry (which apparently doesn't happen until you have already flown here).

I've sent you a private message.

Brad, the immigration agents upon arrival retain full authority to deny entry to any visitor, even when within the standard period allowed for the Visa Waiver program, and even with another type of visa in hand, such as a fiancée visa or work or student visa. That's why she would want to apply for Permanent Residence in the US.

If you use the fiancée visa process, then she arrives with the visa, then you get married, then you fill out further paperwork to apply for her (Conditional) Permanent Residence. There's a period during which she cannot leave the US without permission from USCIS, so that's something to check, given her work situation. After two years of marriage, she can apply to have the conditions removed and after three years of marriage, she can apply for US citizenship. I guess one reason that I chose this avenue was that my fiancé could not enter the US under the Visa Waiver program as European citizens can.

Lots to work through. I can fill out paperwork but I'm not sure I can navigate the maze of rules associated with getting our status where we want.

Neither of us is interested in changing our citizenship nor working in the other country (I might take an American DOD or NATO civilian job in Europe to complete my career). We just want to see each other and travel on our own schedule.

Apparently, France is easier than the US. I don't think I have to do much if we're married in France. The US side seems to have a lot more rules and timetables that must be met. The rules work out nicely for American immigration lawyers.

Brad,

It's wonderful that you've found someone and that you're both serious about the relationship. I'm sure you're finding that the bureaucratic complexities of that situation are daunting and will undoubtedly take some time to work through.

Regarding something that Laura mentioned.....

"There's a period during which she cannot leave the US without permission from USCIS"

That's going to be the case if you decide to reside in the U.S. (one of my relatives went through that process when obtaining U.S. citizenship). As you mentioned, I've heard that the process is less complicated in France, so residing there for awhile might be the easier option. Regardless of whether you work for DOD or whatever, I suspect you'll still be dealing with the IRS as they will want their "cut".

Congratulations and best of luck in navigating the bureaucratic maze!

I am not a tax accountant--or any other type of accountant--but I believe there is a line on the US income tax form called, "Foreign Taxes Paid", which can be treated as a credit against the amount you would otherwise owe Uncle Sam. In other words, I don't think Americans who work overseas get taxed twice on their foreign income. So do some checking before worrying unduly that if you choose to work you'll lose nearly your entire paycheck to taxes.

Can't she as a wife reside in the US without applying for citizenship? I think it is called Lawful Permanent Resident status or something like that. I can understand why neither of you would not want to give up your citizenship of birth. I know several couples with one American citizen spouse Nd the other legally living here, but not interested in applying for citizenship, so it must be possible.

The US, the only country in the world (except for 1 small African nation) that makes its' citizens file their taxes when they live overseas. It is a burden and we get nothing for it. We have no representation in Congress. If we did, we would certainly have that FATCA law repealed.

That said, you don't have to pay any taxes to the IRS unless your income is greater than a certain amount. Something like 80,000$ a year. Don't quote me on the amount. I know I will never earn anything close to that sum, so haven't paid much attention to the exact figure. It could even be 85,000$.

So, there is no double taxation unless you have a higher income than the average person.

I don't profess to be an expert on U.S. citizenship laws but based on experience of family members, I believe one has to at least get a Green Card if staying longer than allowed for tourists or temporary visitors.

https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-through-family/green-card-immediate-relative-us-citizen

As I understand it, the Green Card allows non-U.S. citizens to reside in and seek employment in the U.S., even though they're not citizens. It sounds very similar to Permanent Resident Status in Canada.

You my retain Resident Alien status in the US as long as you comply with certain regulations. Citizenship is not necessary for residency.

I think it would be well worth your time and money to have a brief, focused, consultation with an immigration lawyer who has expertise in this area---namely marriage with resident status but not a citizenship path or a work visa. The rules are very technical, and change often enough that it is difficult to stay current unless one is actually working in the field. You do not need help in filling out the paperwork; you do need guidance on the proper steps to take to achieve the result you want, which if I understand correctly, is the freedom for both of you to travel freely in both directions, and stay in either country as long (or as little) as you like.

There should be no problem doing this, but the consequences of a misstep can be severe---from delay and frustration to heart-wrenching denial of entry to the US. ( Fortunately the chance of the latter is very slight in your case, as your fiancée is not intending to work in the US. That is usually the start of all the trouble. But the immigration officers are always on the lookout for "sham" marriages and you need to avoid all appearance of that).

Aside from the legal aspects, think of being in a bilingual, bi-cultural relationship with all the cultural cues and quirks, your new French family, think of all that good French food...all fantastic for you.

Every person is different, so you can't extrapolate the personality of a person based on nationality.

I came to the US on a fiance' visa (K-1 visa). The process was very quick. Once admitted you have 3 or 6 months' to move to the US (don't remember if 3 or 6). After arrival in the US you have 90 days to get married. You are allowed to work as soon as you arrive. Once married, you need to go to USCIS for application to permanent resident. You are admitted conditionally at that point, and give an perm resident card (green card, which is actually pink) that lasts 2 years. After 2 years you apply for removal of conditional status. Basically you still need to be married to the person, although there are procedures for a waiver (for example if your French wife divorces you for good reason, she can still stay).

You can also get married first and apply directly for perm status instead of applying for K1 fiance' visa. But the US government does not encourage that. Unless you plan to marry in France, then sponsor your wife while she stays there. The K1 visa is faster to move her across the Ocean. I went through the K1 route. A good friend of mine in Florence who married an American from Wash. State went through the other way. They got married first (in July) in Canada, then she sponsored him while he was in Florence waiting. His green card arrived at the US consulate in Italy about 4-5 months later. That's when he moved to Seattle. They lasted only a year or two. Then they both moved to Florence where they live since. He couldn't take the rain.

The biggest issue is that one of you (or both) has to emigrate. That means having to leave family and friends and your country's lifestyle behind. That's the hardest part, no matter who makes the move. Everything else (bureaucracy, paperwork, language barrier, employment) are hurdles that can be easily overcome with time.

If I have to choose between living in Europe and the US, I wouldn't know which is better or worse. I guess it's toss (I have lived 1/2 of my life in both). But for sure, once you are a retired person, life is better in Europe in most cases. So as soon as you retire (hopefully early) pack your bag and move to France. America is no country for old men, to paraphrase a famous movie.

"...take an American DOD... job...." That can be done. I knew an American grammar school teacher who taught for DOD in Germany, between Frankfurt and Gießen, for 5 years. Then she felt she had to decide whether to stay longer in Germany or come back. That was in the mid-1980s.

My girlfriend also mentioned something about my requirement to apply for a green card for her - even if she doesn't need or want to work and something else (assume permanent status) that needs to be done at two years (not earlier and not later).

Regardless of your fiancé need to work, she needs a green card to stay in the US longer than 3 months.
Although I have gone through the process a long time ago, however you can get more updated info on the official channels, rather than here from people like us.
Go to the USCIS website and do some research.
https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-through-family
https://www.uscis.gov/family/family-us-citizens/fiancee-visa/fiancee-visas

It's interesting that the choices don't seem to fit our needs very well. The fiance visa is for marrying in the US but we're more likely to marry in France before here. The green card is for permanent residence, when all we really want is to be able to travel back and forth and be able to stay for more days than a normal visa allows.

I'm sure I'll have to look at all the options carefully before I decide on anything.

The two-year mark is when you apply to remove the Conditions on her Permanent Residence, as Roberto and I mentioned. You can't do it earlier because they want to know that you stayed married that long and you can't do it later because her first card has an expiration date. You're right that there are a lot of rules and deadlines. Each step of the process also seems to require a new set of fingerprints.

Again, the down-sides to not getting Permanent Residence are both the 90-day visit limits and the authority of immigration agents at the airport to possibly deny entry to anyone who is not either a Citizen or a Permanent Resident. As well as the not being able to work, it might also be harder for her to get a Virginia driver's license, or take a college class, or maybe some other things that we take for granted.

Adding to Jo's reply on U.S. income tax, the exclusion on the first 95k of income doesn't apply until you have been out of the country 330 days in a 365 day period. Also, Virginia is one of the states that taxes you based on domicile rather than on residence; if you are an expat and Virginia was your last state of residence in the U.S., you will have to file taxes in Virginia. Just one more thing for you to check out ...

Addressing Laura's points about the downside of not getting permanent status:

Is it really all that likely she might be turned away at the US border when coming for a legal ( less than three month) stay? She would be a French citizen married to an American citizen but living in France, where she has a job. There is nothing there to arouse suspicion. Especially since she would probably be traveling with her husband.

But they really need to talk to an immigration lawyer to get it right.

Laura,

Maybe a good idea to move out of Virginia first. I intend to get a boat when I retire. I could always rent a slip in Florida, live on the boat and use that as my main US address for awhile.

I haven't worried too much about tax consequences - first I have to have retirement income before anyone takes it away. :-)