Taking driving safety seriously…

It wasn't necessarily going 6mph over that netted her a $1200 fine, it was because she already had prior driving convictions.

They both should have used their Memory Charms on the police officers. You don't go to Hogwarts for nothing.

That said: most photo radar enforcement in EU countries is strict. I was zapped by a photo radar cam in Geneva in 2023, going 2km/h over the posted speed - instant 100CF ticket. And the rental car agency passed it along to me, so... yeah. I definitely drive to the letter of the law when overseas these days.

There's no leeway, and as these are lidar cameras they're quite accurate. If only we had the same strict codes here in the States. If only...

That's cheap compared to certain other countries. In Finland, speeding tickets are based on income. And it made the headlines a few years ago when a Finnish businessman recieved a €121,000 speeding ticket.

The article doesn’t say they were photo tickets - but I assume they might be. That’s a big difference from where I live - Washington state. In Washington, photo tickets don’t go on the driving record and therefore can’t result in a suspension for too many tickets. Officer-issued tickets can and DO result in suspensions all the time in Washington, but the limitation of this as a deterrent is that so much speeding occurs where drivers are not pulled over. And while our speeding fines are increased by speed in Washington, the $500 range is about as high as they go.

Photo radar tickets are applied to the vehicle owner, not the driver. You can't lose points that way.

38 mph instead of 30 mph does not sound much - but actually it is.

What most people really underestimate or do not know that over-speeding is the minor issue compared to the result from it: the over-linear enhancement of stopping distance.

30 mph --> 41 yd
38 mph --> 61 yd

While she was roughly 26,7% over speed limit, the stopping distance increased 48.7% - depending on used formula and circumstances such as driver's fitness and awareness as well as road and weather conditions. In practice the difference can be a healthy, injured or worst case dead person for the benefit of 8 mph faster per hour on a base of 30 mph.

You can learn something by applying this exercise to speeds driven on German Autobahn.

I have no insights wherever she got her driving license from but in Germany this is part of theoretical and practical training and test to obtain a driving license.

For the reason shown:

• Yes, fines also for little over-speeding shall hurt.
• Yes, repeated over-speeding shall hurt so painfully that a behavioral change will follow.
• Where it is not the case: Laws shall change from fining absolute over-speeding to relative over-speeding. It makes no sense to punish 10 mph too fast in a 20 mph zone the same way as 10 mph too fast in a 60 mph zone.

Steven, in the future you can cut every link with beginning of the "?".

Mark, thanks for the tip!

I was zapped by a photo radar cam in Geneva in 2023, going 2km/h over the posted speed - instant 100CF ticket.

Love that.

Stopping distances per mph, speed-related injuries/deaths, the financial impact on health care and auto insurance premiums... It's weird that we Americans compile all this data - and then ignore it. I cannot think of a single valid argument for NOT having proper roadside speed surveillance and automatic fines like this. Yet we don't. It's a universal truth that misbehavior is only deterred when punishment is certain. Individual cops chasing down individual speed offenders - our current approach - well, it's a game, the roadway equivalent of exterminating home-invading ants one by one and a total waste of taxpayer dollars. We could learn a thing or two from the Swiss.

Ontario used to have provincewide photo radar, abandoned a number of years ago. Some municipalities still use it, mainly for red light infractions but also on some side streets. The unusual rule of 3 demerit points for speeds of 16 kph above the speed limit, whether the speed limit is 30 or 100.

I'm all for speed cameras in residential areas, especially school zones, even highways. More welcome than speed bumps, which appear to be popping up everywhere nowadays on city streets. I think the 'cash cow' arguement becomes vocal when overly strict tolerance levels are applied: R.D. does not say what the road speed limit was for his 2k over infraction.

Individual cops chasing down individual speed offenders - our current approach

And it would be so easy on motorways with dedicated ramps for driving on and off: check the travel time of a vehicle (by video-based ID plate recognition) between driving on and off and compare it to the calculated best time with max. allowed speed. This way speeding for "saving" time would not be possible without paying an automated fine.

You also have to deal with "average speed zones" which are very popular in France, where they do measure just how fast you are going from one location to another. This is another way to incur a fine. And be aware that every tunnel has cameras, which is another reason I hate driving in Luxembourg.

It's a universal truth that misbehavior is only deterred when punishment is certain.

Before covid, community spirit prevented misbehavior. No longer true, at least where I live.

"I was zapped by a photo radar cam in Geneva in 2023, going 2km/h over
the posted speed "

What you get fined for is not what the radar registered. They always subtract the error margin. So it probably measured you going 8 or 9 above the limit, so your speedometer probably showed 15 above (as they always overstate a car's speed...)

"And it would be so easy on motorways with dedicated ramps for driving
on and off: check the travel time of a vehicle (by video-based ID
plate recognition) between driving on and off and compare it to the
calculated best time with max. allowed speed."

This is actually done at scale already in Europe. Pay attention to cameras on gantries above motorways. One of my uncles founded a company that makes these cameras, and he sold a lot, in multiple countries.

I like the idea of speeding tickets based on income. For example a $500 ticket for a wealthy person might have no impact on their driving, but for someone with less income it's a lot of money.

Often around here in the States if I'm going the speed limit it seems to upset some people via tailgating or passing me in dangerous situations. It seems the speed limit is a suggestion.

Alas, I agree automatic cameras and fines are the way to go. It's the only way to get a handle on speeding, running red lights, etc.

I wonder if speed bumps could create problems for emergency vehicles, and I see some people that fly over speed bumps without slowing down, mainly young people.

I wonder if speed bumps could create problems for emergency vehicles

Maybe, but my city solved it with active speed bumps. The problem was a 30 km/h-zone on a major street, close to the hospital so frequently used by ambulances.

It's weird that we Americans compile all this data - and then ignore it. I cannot think of a single valid argument for NOT having proper roadside speed surveillance and automatic fines like this. Yet we don't. It's a universal truth that misbehavior is only deterred when punishment is certain.

Alas, I agree automatic cameras and fines are the way to go. It's the only way to get a handle on speeding, running red lights, etc.

Russ and Big Mike, unfortunately, the problem in the US is that if you start automatically ticketing for violations (like going 1 mph over the speed limit), you still have to give the offender the option of going to court. And the courts would be bogged down by people protesting the radar calibration (or use of cameras). I think that's why most police don't ticket unless someone is at least 5 mph over the limit (and usually 10 mph). If someone refuses to pay the ticket, the police officer has to show up in court, which takes time and cuts into resources. And if the officer doesn't or can't show up, the violator gets off and the ticket is dismissed.

And automatic tickets issued by cameras can only go so far. Cedar Rapids, Iowa has had cameras set up all over the city for decades. They would automatically ticket drivers (mostly people passing through who weren't aware of the cameras) and collected a lot of money. Unfortunately, Cedar Rapids forgot about due process, and sent the unpaid tickets to collection agencies without going through the judicial process. They were eventually sued in a class action, and had to pay out $1.2 million, plus forego $14 million in unpaid fines.

unfortunately, the problem in the US is that if you start automatically ticketing for violations (like going 1 mph over the speed limit), you still have to give the offender the option of going to court

It's the same over here. Of course you can go to court over any speeding ticket if you want to. The example you give sounds like a failure to administer a system rather than the system itself.

You don't get a ticket for 1 MPH over the speed limit here. That would be wholly impractical. The tolerance of the cameras for triggering is 10% over +2MPH.

It works the same here, people that get a ticket from a speed camera have the option to let a court decide.

The example you give sounds like a failure to administer a system rather than the system itself.

Gerry, that's true. I was happy when it happened, as I got dinged once driving through town there and going about 2 miles over the speed limit. I did not pay the fine, and never heard back from them. I think they were hoping most people would just pay up without checking on the legality. I sort of figured the UK does, since the original "due process" came from the Magna Carta.

But that makes a good point about the 1 mph above the limit. It's not really practical, in my opinion.

Margee, thanks for your illuminating post.

Well, maybe we could learn how the Europeans have figured this out with due process. Also agree with a minimum of 5 mph over the speed limit.

It's frustrating at times because we have kids in our neighborhood playing outside, but some motorists act like the road is a speedway. Makes me nervous at times.

As an aside I like California's 55 mph speed limit for tractor trailers and Germany's requiring them to stay in the right lane. Here in West Virginia and Virginia it's a free for all. Trucks going 80 mph in the left lane. It's like the wild west on Interstate 81 and 95 lol.

Big Mike, I totally get that. Trucks (and cars) that drive on the left make me crazy! Drive on the right and pass on the left! It's not brain surgery but some drivers seem incapable of managing it. And could somebody PLEASE teach them how to properly do a scissors merge!!!

Well, maybe we could learn how the Europeans have figured this out with due process.

Yes, lately we seem to have forgotten how that works.

the courts would be bogged down by people protesting the radar
calibration (or use of cameras). I think that's why most police don't
ticket unless someone is at least 5 mph over the limit (and usually 10
mph).

I don't see why we can't manage this problem like Europe does. Speeding isn't like littering or overtime parking. Every speeding vehicle is a potential lethal weapon - I really don't see much difference between exceessive speed and brandishing a weapon. We should be protesting needless injury and death, not speeding tickets. We lose nearly as many lives annually to car accidents as we did in the entire Vietnam war - and speeding is the leading cause of these fatalities. When there's proven science behind evidence collection (fingerprints, DNA, cameras, radar,) then law enforcement and the courts have a responsibility to protect the public - pedestrians, bicyclists, fellow drivers, pets and wildlife - by using said evidence against offenders to fine them at a minimum, to revoke the driving privilege for true/repeat scofflaws, and to imprison those who might continue driving after revocation.

The tolerance of the cameras for triggering is 10% over +2MPH.

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable threshold to me. Or use whatever threshold the cops use now in your jurisdiction. We need to be very intolerant of those who disregard posted speed limits. Every car has a speedometer, most all have cruise control. Once every act of speeding gets ticketed and repeat offenders are pedaling to work, the certainty of punishment for driving at unreasonable speeds will mean better driving choices, fewer offenders, fewer accidents and lost lives - and fewer court cases.

I like the idea of speeding tickets based on income. For example a
$500 ticket for a wealthy person might have no impact on their
driving, but for someone with less income it's a lot of money.

You have that in Switzerland.
Excessive speeding is considered a felony, and not merely a traffic violation. And fines are expressed in "days", as in X times your average daily income. There have been cases of people being fined a years worth...

But income based speeding tickets can't be issued by the use of photo radar or laser.

Wengen K, thank you.

Gundersen, is that true of some or all countries?

Mike, photo radar speeding tickets are issued to the owner of the vehicle, who was not necessarily the driver of the vehicle when the speeding offense occured. That's my understanding and how it applies here in Ontario. No point deductions, as the driver cannot be indentified.

Anything else would be unfair, and fines based on income are not right in my book.

The cameras here show the front view and clearly show both the passengers and the driver. The owner is required to state if that is them, and if they say it is not they are required to identify the driver. The driver, not the owner, pays the fine and gets the points.

If it is the old type which flashes your behind, the owner is still legally required to identify the driver.

By the way, radar cameras are old hat. Newer ones are LIDAR.

Nigel, interesting and a bit too Big Brotherish for me.

Nothing to do with travel. I'm no lawyer but I can see problems with this policy where I live. I know a guy who owns a number of vehicles with his three sons, the vehicles used for amateur races.

Gundersen, appreciate your thoughts.