Sports as entertainment while traveling- greyhound racing and bull fighting and

Well for bullfighting this is something that's been in Spain for 2000 years, it continues to have strong local support among various age groups and endured many foreign attempts to get rid of it. The Moors, the French, and even the Pope (who excommunicated it) tried and failed to ban bullfighting in Spain, it's sure to endure with or without support from foreigners.

I'm guessing this is part of Rick's "travel like a local" scenario. The issue is always "to what extent should we judge the behavior of other cultures by the values of our own culture?" Of course, we should certainly "judge" them by not participating. And what about people(like myself) who enjoy watching a sport where a player on the Miami Dolphins has had numerous concussions and another player's heart stopped during a game after a tackle?

Just a note, if you think you’re complaining directly to Rick, he’ll probably never see this

If you are responding to one of the radio shows, the place where it will be seen by fellow listeners is the radio forum https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/radio

Let’s not go down this path again. It’s been brought up numerous times on the forum. I doubt anybody would disagree about the cruelty of bullfighting, but the fights are a part of the culture whether one agrees with them or not. Your rant will not change anybody’s opinion. If they weren’t mentioned somebody would say Rick was remiss by not mentioning them.

Everybody has their own opinion,. Nothing says you need to attend.

I do hope you visit Spain to enjoy the multitude of other things the country offers.

It should be understood that there are areas of Spain that have outlawed bullfighting. In France, only four cities still have bullfights, with others having games of skill that involve bulls, sort of like rodeos. It’s not rampant, but it is curious that Rick would toot that particular horn.

It should be understood that there are areas of Spain that have outlawed bullfighting.

This is a bit misleading, I'm guessing you are referring to Catalonia? While it's true the regional gov has outlawed "Castilian style" bullfighting, local Catalan bull traditions like "bous al carrer" and "bou embolat" are still alive and well in rural parts of the region and protected as cultural activates by local law. Again these are things that are supported by local people and government in Spain, no amount of boycotting by foreigners is gonna change this.

I imagine those are the same skill “games” in Catalonia as we have here in Occitanie. Indeed, traditions that are over 2,000 years old.

I imagine those are the same skill “games” in Catalonia as we have here in Occitanie. Indeed, traditions that are over 2,000 years old.

They are better known as "running of the bulls" outside of Spain, except in Catalonia we put balls of lit tar on the horns the bull, sometimes fireworks are attached too. Yes very old pre-Christian even pre-Roman traditions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toro_embolado

I too was disappointed, no disgusted - that Rick Steves had to select Greyhound racing as a go to 'sport' to attend while traveling in Europe. You have a large audience and have an opportunity to appear enlightened. Be responsible and humane and retract your comments. Reflect on the fact that the reason greyhound racing has been outlawed is because of its outright cruelty and treatment of the animals throughout their entire often unnecessarily short lives. Greyhounds are caged for the majority of their day. They are released to race or train and many don't survive. They suffer and die due to broken necks and legs. Others are killed when they don't present as good racers or chasers. Thousands are abandoned, and are not able to be rehomed due to the fact that they were kenneled 23 out of 24 hours a day and had no opportunities for socialization and/or leading a normal life.

"It was nasty. I can't help but acknowledge the bullfight as an important part of Spanish culture. But it's one that makes a spectacle out of the cruel torture and killing of an animal. Should tourists boycott bullfights? I don't know. I've always been ambivalent about listing the fights in my guidebooks. I do still list them, thinking that as a travel writer, I need to report on what exists, rather than judge it or seek to put an end to another culture's tradition. When the event is kept alive only by the patronage of tourists, I'll reconsider my reporting. In the meantime, I agree with the boy and his parents: Two bulls is plenty."

Rick Steves
https://www.ricksteves.com/watch-read-listen/read/articles/madrid-bullfight

Couldnt find anything he has written on racing Greyhounds. But not sure the problem with Bus Races anyway?

I fail to see how mentioning the existence of an activity like bull fights or dog races equals promoting them. Perhaps the OP thinks that ignorance is bliss, or that not mentioning them will make them magically disappear. And if the OP thinks that tourists opting to not attend the events will lead to their demise- that is indeed magical thinking. OTOH, no one is forcing the OP to attend anything he doesn't want to see. Don't like bull fights? Then don't go. But while in the country, kindly keep your culturally biased opinions to yourself.

But while in the country, kindly keep your culturally biased opinions to yourself.

I think it's perfectly valid to voice criticisms of aspects of a country that you don't agree with. For me, I love Spain and it is by far the country that I've visited the most however I find the traditions involving cruelty to bulls and other animals abhorrent and I will gladly voice my criticism. There are aspects about most countries that I don't like, no culture or country is beyond reproach and everyone is entitled to voice any criticism that they see fit. Frankly some of the responses to this first time poster are a bit harsh and not at all welcoming.

Yeah the "don't criticise the culture" thing is daft.

Should tourists boycott bullfights? I don't know. I've always been ambivalent about listing the fights in my guidebooks. I do still list them, thinking that as a travel writer, I need to report on what exists, rather than judge it or seek to put an end to another culture's tradition.

Haha "report on what exists". It's not National Geographic, it's guide books for tourists. I "boycott" things I don't like all the time. It's otherwise known as "not going". Putting bullfighting in the guidebooks is tacit support, even if he's "ambivalent". The whole quote is mealy-mouthed rubbish. Thinking it's an activity "that makes a spectacle out of the cruel torture and killing of an animal" and at the same time telling people the best bus to get to the arena seems a bit weird to me. Thinking that leaving it out is going to "put an end to another culture's tradition" is grandiose nonsense.

I'm on the fence about greyhound racing. Where I grew up people keeping greyhounds for racing was quite common. I can think of one person in particular who walked his dogs morning, noon and night. I'm sure there's bad practice in the the sport, and there should be safeguards against that, but I'm not convinced the act of racing itself is inherently cruel. I'd hope the majority involved treat their dogs with care.

At what point does RS stop recommending anything.

Some people are upset because he mentions bullfighting. Some people are upset with greyhound racing.

What about other recommendations? Should he stop mentioning restaurants that serve meat for upsetting vegans? Should he stop listing restaurants that serve pork in case he might offend religious Jews and Muslims?

What offends one person may not offend another. I think Rick did the right thing....he mentions the activity but gives it a caveat.

What about other recommendations? Should he stop mentioning restaurants that serve meat for upsetting vegans? Should he stop listing restaurants that serve pork in case he might offend religious Jews and Muslims?

Yeah because those things are equivalent lol.

I'm maybe being a bit harsh on poor old Rick. I haven't read what he wrote in his book so I'm possibly too quick to judge.

I'm a complete hypocrite of course now I'm trying to get the "The Bear Pit" off the ground. I hope it will be one of the finest bar and grill joints in the city, as well as continuing a fine old English tradition.

I think it's perfectly valid to voice criticisms of aspects of a
country that you don't agree with. For me, I love Spain and it is by
far the country that I've visited the most however I find the
traditions involving cruelty to bulls and other animals abhorrent and
I will gladly voice my criticism.

Naturally you are free to your opinion. But walking into another country, for me at least, is the equivelent to walking into someone's home and I wouldnt do that, then critisize my host once inside. Just not what I believe to be good behavior. But home in the States is a different matter. Or even on this forum for that matter.

GerryM, do you have room for me to put a Bus racing circuit on your property? RS says its popular (but I havent actually seen that in print yet).

Now, if we can only get the RLD info out of the guidebooks. Is this really the demographic of the RS guide book readers?

It feels really off to put down the bad treatment of animals but continue to glorify the bad treatment of those less fortunate who have gotten stuck selling their bodies. Yes, they are there, yes it is legal, but why is it in the guidebooks? Why does Rick have his walks in Frankfurt, Amsterdam and Hamburg go through here?
These people are not in a zoo, stop the tours and the walks through here. Take it out of the guidebooks. Those who want to go here can easily find the information. Or does Rick really want this info to be easily found by his readers?

I worked the greyhound tracks for 2 years in Florida. Those dogs were treated like royalty, with lots of love, and the best food and care. When you have an animal worth 1000s of $, you do not mistreat it. Ended up with 2 of them as pets. They are like cats, they sleep about 23 hours a day.

Now, if we can only get the RLD info out of the guidebooks

That certainly widens the debate. It's maybe too OT to discuss the finer points you raise here in this thread, but I support your idea of it not being a spectacle.

I've just being doing some work on my business plan for The Bear Pit this afternoon and I've discovered that bear baiting has been illegal in England since 1835! Would you believe it?! Back to the drawing board for me I'm afraid.

GerryM, you might enjoy this: https://medveotthon.hu/ Rumor has it, that this began after the bears were removed from the ownership of a certain segment of society that would train them to dance for money. Not sure as to the truth of that https://www.studiolum.com/wang/games/beardance/map1/14.jpg

Ms Jo, I spent a good number of years working in the Rio Grand Valley where dog races were popular. Yup, those dogs were treated pretty well. When they reached a certain age they were put up for adoption.

I remember as a child seeing Hercules The Bear at country shows and whatever. It was a big deal to see him in the flesh, hanging out in his own converted bus. He was a big star on Scottish TV in the late 70's / early 80's. It would be unheard of these days for someone to parade a trained bear.

In my pursuit of the absurd that I talked about in another thread recently, I've often thought about urban fox hunting in London. That would be real spectacle. Guys in the red jackets with little trumpets, mounted on horses, sending hounds in to root out foxes that look like they have debilitating drug problems from people's bin sheds and tear them limb from limb in the street. At night when the foxes are out of course. That would be something to see. Fox hunting has (supposedly) been illegal in England since 2004, so I already know that's definitely not going to fly as an entertainment.

It seems to me that the easiest way to resolve this is that if these bother you, don't attend.

And then there's the often quoted phrase "When in Rome...."

Bullfighting has a 2,000-year history in Spain and elsewhere because the Romans introduced it as an entertaining way to kill Christians. I'm not sure its long culture is much to write home about, to be honest.

The Moors made it less brutal (at least they removed the planned human death bit). Modern Spanish-style bullfighting isn't actually that old. Mostly emerging in the 18th century.

Anyway, it is cruel and disgusting, and no tourist writer should be promoting it. It is also becoming less popular in Spain, year by year, thankfully.

It is also becoming less popular in Spain, year by year, thankfully.

Nick you might be surprised, Bullfighting has seen a resurgence of popularity with younger generations in Spain. The death of bullfighting has been declared many times, but the number of bullfights is at its highest level in seven years, and the young are the most consistent presence among them teenagers aged 15-19 were the largest group. Those aged over 75 were the least likely to attend.

https://apnews.com/article/spain-bullfighting-youth-92131a751aab91a51465e2bd9c806cb6

Carlos
This isn't the place for a debate. So I will just point out that the AP article is based on claims by ANOET - the pro-bullfighting lobby group. The real data from the Ministry which actually monitors this shows bullfight "events" dropped by a third during 2010 to 2023. I'll leave the debate there.

Dog racing isn't half as popular as it used to be in the UK. I'm not sure there's any regular greyhound racing in Scotland at all now. I'm going to link to a document from The Scottish Government. Some of the stats are a real eye-opener for me and may alone have done quite a bit to change my perception of it.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/licensing-activities-involving-animals-consultation-document/pages/6/

It's maybe an interesting cultural note that the bookies (High Street betting shops in the UK) import much of their dog racing from the far east these days. There's only a handful of tracks left in the UK. A friend of mine who worked in the bookies many years ago said that betting seriously on greyhound racing ("the dugs") was usually the preserve of those with gambling problems. A really risky bet compared to horses.

And then there's the often quoted phrase "When in Rome...."

That's a ridiculous notion when it comes to barbaric, inhumane, abusive or prejudiced practices. There are plenty of traditions, beliefs, attitudes and practices throughout the world that many would disagree with or outright condemn, simply because we're visiting a country doesn't mean we have to agree with or participate in such practices or beliefs.

Now the the OP stirred the hornet’s nest, I wonder if we’ll ever hear from him/her again.

Re bullfighting.
Unless one never eats beef that is a factory farm animal I find it hypocritical to object to bullfighting. I met some people in Seville who took me to an ranch where bulls were raised for the sport. They were raised in good conditions and treated well.
Compare to the life of a the typical beef cow in the US and that's before they go to feedlots for some time and then on the conveyer to an inhumane death.
So yes,I did see bullfighting in Seville. The suffering of the animal was brief,and the bullfighter is shamed if the animal is not killed quickly;it's a matter of skill. Probably wouldn't go again but it's an ancient part of the culture.

If you are responding to one of the radio shows, the place where it
will be seen by fellow listeners is the radio forum
https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/radio

I never knew the radio forum existed. Kind of quiet in there.

As for bullfighting... not my cup of tea... no interest in seeing... but I bear no ill will toward Rick for mentioning the topic.

Unless one never eats beef that is a factory farm animal I find it hypocritical to object to bullfighting.

I eat British beef which is all pasture grazed and can never be described as a factory farm animal. The cattle are slaughtered quickly and humanely with a bolt to the head which is a far better ending than the torture and brutality committed against a bull in a bullfight (or the sheer inhumanity of placing burning tar on a bull's horns) simply for the entertainment of people. There's no excuse for it and claiming it is a long held tradition means absolutely nothing. There are many long held traditions that have rightly been consigned to history because they are cruel, sadistic and have no place in today's society. The fact that bullfighting is still taking place is a stain on Spain and the other countries that practice it.

Now the the OP stirred the hornet’s nest, I wonder if we’ll ever hear from him/her again.

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't hear from them again based on the reception they received from some posters.

I'd be interested in knowing what recent discussion the OP was referring to, as Rick "promoting" bullfighting, or advocating attendance. Every time I've seen him mention it, it's been a more nuanced discussion. And frankly, it's something many tourists want to see, and dont look to Rick for moral guidance. If the result of seeing it in person is coming to the conclusion it is repulsive, then that is a good thing. I dont see talking about it as approval, and I dont see my personal boycott as having much impact.

On the other hand, ferret-legging is just plain wrong in every way.

On the other hand, ferret-legging is just plain wrong in every way.

Stan what does ferret legging mean? Admittedly it's the first time I've heard of this word, is this a typical American slang?

Carlos, google it. It's a Scottish sport as far as I can tell.

and yes I know, its dangerous to attempt humor on a serious subject.\

(add) Ok, for the non-curious, it's a competition in which you tie off the legs of your trousers, and put one or two ferrets down there. Without underwear. The one who can stand it the longest wins. I read about it in a national magazine, so I'm not making it up.

Ferret legging is/was a "sport" mainly from miners in Yorkshire, England where ferrets were trapped in trousers (pants) that were being worn for the longest time possible.

But it has also been seen in Manitoba, Canada (to raise funds for the local ferret shelter) and at the Richmond Highland Games, VA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferret-legging

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferret-legging

Don't tell me massive amounts of booze was not involved when this was first thought of.

Now the the OP stirred the hornet’s nest, I wonder if we’ll ever hear
from him/her again.

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't hear from them again based on the
reception they received from some posters.

Respectfully, it doesn't really appear that the OP came to the Forum looking to have a thoughtful, give-and-take conversation but instead came to share a very un-nuanced opinion as gospel truth:

Partaking as a spectator in these “sports” is not ok. Advocating
attending, is inexcusable.

while using false, over-the-top claims to supplement/defend that opinion

let me assure you the dogs too wind up shot, hanged or drowned.

Again, bull fighting is not my cup of tea, and I honestly don't understand why anyone would want to watch it, but I also don't consider my opinion on the topic absolute truth.

Thanks for the info on the ferry legging, when I read about it it kind of sounded like something out of Monty Python.

If memory serves me right, there was, many years ago, a skit about ferret-legging one either Monty Python or Saturday Night Live. (Or maybe I dreamed it!?)