Spain/Portugal/France, logical groupings for future trips

I'm hoping to get some replies on this, not that there is any time rush. Would it make more sense to post this with Portugal?

I have traveled extensively in the Iberian Peninsula as well as France.

You have the right idea to visit places of interest that are geographically close, so you lose little time in travel.

I have been to Spain 5 times and Portugal twice as well as France 7-8 times, however I have not been to the Bordeaux region or the Basque region of Spain. That trip is on my to do list.

In my opinion, just doing Bordeaux and the Basque region would take 2 1/2 to 3 weeks. Crossing a border with a rental car can be expensive if you drop it in another country, but trains can take care of your travels when auto rental is not practical.

Portugal is great and if you do the Lisbon area then the area between Lisbon and Porto, then Porto you would need at least 2 weeks, more if you do the 7 day Douro River cruise that we did (it was great). Also, we did a side trip from Porto to Santiago de Compostela.
Don't miss Evora, Sintra, Obidos, Batilha Cathedral and Navarre. The Algarve didn't appeal to us, since we live near a beach in the USA.

Spain has much to see. The Madrid area includes Toledo and Segovia. The south is great with Seville, Cordova and Granada. Both of these areas need about 6-8 days each.
Barcelona and that area is another trip that need about a week.

I have been to Spain twice and to France at least four times. I have been to much of Andalusia and Toledo and Segovia. For France/Spain Basque, I think we would have at least 3 weeks and would use a car up to the Spanish border. We might possibly rent a car again in Spain.

I've spent a week in Barcelona/Catalunya and for the next trip to that area, we'd probably use a car in Provence and then pick up a car in Catalunya, returning in somewhere before Madrid.

For Portugal and parts of Spain, I've looked at taking a train between Porto and Santiago de Compostele and Porto to Salamanca. Unless I was missing something, those train rides would be VERY long with multiple transfers. I was looking for a confirmation that if we desire those side trips that we'd have to use a car (and always returning it to the originating city). Thanks for the suggestions on "don't miss" stops in Portugal. Though we live in MN, we tend not to be beach people unless the location has other compelling features.

This sounds like how I try to survive my Ottawa Canada winters. Whether I take my trips are sometimes immaterial.
Did you look at Rome2rio website to look at some options for bus, train or plane? I read more about combining the 2 countries when planning my own Spain travel 2 years ago, so the memory is a little imprecise. Some people have gotten a rental car in Portugal, head to a border town, drop the car, take the bus across the border, then pick up a rental on the Spain side. It might be easier to cross via public transport far north or far south. Easiest is to just fly Lisbon to Seville.
edit: You comment about returning to 'originating city' but unlike US and Canada, in country one way fees are insignificant so backtracking wouldn't be necessary.

Maria, you are so right. We rarely run into charges for one way rentals. I meant originating country. Oh boy, we are having rotten weather today!

I have never seriously researched the border-crossing options, but I think the crossing from northern Portugal to Galicia should be possible either by bus(es) or a train/bus combination.

From Porto you can take a 3:15 hr FlixBus to Vigo in Galicia, from Vigo one can take a 1:30 hr region train to Santiago de Compostela, and then take the 5:15 hr ALVIA high speed train all the way to Madrid (with stops at the worthwhile towns of Ourense and Zamora).

I visited Spain for a month (April) and felt I could have used more time. I ended up dropping Portugal from that itinerary because it's not easy to get from one to the other and back.

Here's what I think would be good itineraries for two to three weeks each:

Portugal: up the coast from around Lisbon end in Galicia (Santiago de Compostela or the Basque coast of Spain)

Spain: Northern: Barcelona (and environs), Cuenca, Toledo, Segovia, Salamanca, Zamora, Valladolid (castles in the area, Coca, La Mota, Penefiel), Burgos, Donostia (San Sebastian), Pamplona, Olite castle, Zaragosa - fast train to either Barcelona or Madrid for flight home.

Spain: Southern: Granada, Antiquera (passage tombs), Ronda, Gibraltar, Tarifa, Cadiz, Jerez, Arcos, Seville, Cordoba. Make sure to visit one or two Roman ruin sights.

France: I just finished four trips, these were roughly my four itineraries (some were just stops for a few hours). Paris includes daytrips to places like Chartres and Versailles:

Northwest (Normandie, Brittany, Loire Valley): Paris, Rouen, Etretat, Bayeaux, MSM, Cancale, St. Malo, Dinan, Ft. La Lotte, Western Brittany including Locronan, Auray, Vannes, Carnac, Fontevraud Abbey, Chinon, Villandry (gardens), Amboise, Chenonceau, Royal Amboise, Clos Luce, Paris.

Northeast (Burgundy, Alsace, Champagne): Paris, Auxerre, Guedelon, Vezelay, Avallon, Semur en Auxois, Museo Park Alesia, Autun, Bibracte, Beaune, Dijon, Colmar (Freiburg), Equisheim, Riquewehr, Ribeauville, Kaysersbourg, Chateau du Haut Koenigsbourg, Strasbourg, Heidelberg, Reims, (should have added Troyes and Provins), Paris.

Southeast: (Provence, Riviera, Alps, Ardech): Paris, Lyon, Annecy, Chamonix, Gorges de la Bourne, Balazuc, Pont d'Arc, Orange, Gigondas, Vaison la Romaine, Chateuneuf du Pape, Ft. Saint Andre, Avignon, Pont du Gard, Nimes, Arles, Les Baux, Aix, Cannes, Juan les Pins, Antibes, Nice, Villefranche, Monaco, Menton, Paris (flight from Nice).

Southwest (Languedoc, Lot, Dordogne, Bordeaux): Paris, Toulouse, Carcassonne, Foix, Queribus, Peyrepertuse, Alet-les-Bains, Albi, Courdes sur Ciel, Najac, St Cirq, Peche Merle, Figeac, Conques, Rocamadour, Domme, La Roque Gageac, Castlenaud, Beynac, Sarlat, La Roque St. Christophe, Perigueux, Brantome, St. Emilion, Arcachon (and camping on the ocean south of Arcachon), Bordeaux, Paris.

Brad, it would appear that we are on the same wave length. I've done a lot of the French trips pretty much the way you have them organized! We've rented a car a fair amount, though I wasn't fond of driving in Spain,but I think driving through the mountains and in the narrow roads pueblos blancos, would be challenging (tho fun) for many.

@geovagriffith, who did you do the Duoro river through?

Public transport between Porto and Santiago de Compostela is minimal, but a couple of options currently exist, subject to change before the time that you travel. I would prefer the flexibility of driving if you can return the rental car to the same country.

• www.alsa.es and www.rede-expressos.pt seem to cooperate to run 3 direct buses per day that take about 4 hours.

• Once per day in each direction, trains connect with "only" a one-hour layover at Vigo. Total travel time 6 hours. Depart Porto northbound around 8:00 a.m. or depart Santiago southbound around 14:30.

• Southbound only, on the April schedule, there are a couple more train connections that are faster but require 2 changes. The fastest one currently departs at 7:30 weekdays and takes under 3 hours.

From Madrid, Salamanca, San Sebastian, and other points in between, the only practical train option is the overnight train to Coimbra and Lisbon (requires an additional connection to Porto). Flying is a common solution between the larger cities; see www.skyscanner.com.

Maybe you also saw https://community.ricksteves.com/travel-forum/portugal/salamanca-to-porto, reporting that traveler's recent issues with Salamanca-Porto bus connections.

We did the Douro River cruise with Vantage World Travel. It was great. We have done three River cruises/tours with them. We always compare prices of Viking, Grand Circle, Avalon, Uniworld and more. Vantage has had the best deals on those cruises.

The Portuguese Government owns most of the cruise boats on the Douro and manages the actual cruise, contracting out to firms. I think a few cruise lines may have their own boats.

Viking tends to have boats that are larger and have more issues with navigation when it doesn't rain enough. We liked the size of the boat on our cruise.

Cost wise, we thought that Portugal was generally cheaper than Spain and the people are a bit more friendly there.

Our river cruise also included a day trip to Salamanca.

Here are my reviews of some of our trips and cruises that included Portugal, Spain and France.
 Portugal, the Douro River and a bit of Spain
http://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/memberreview.cfm?EntryID=535267
AMA Rhone River
http://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/memberreview.cfm?EntryID=103733
W. Med  NCL Epic
http://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/memberreview.cfm?EntryID=103808

Spain, Canary Islands and Morocco
http://www.cruisecritic.com/memberreviews/memberreview.cfm?EntryID=80907