Smart TV etiquette - was it wrong to watch Tom and Lucy's Netflix?

I do the same, in that situation, mostly so that I don't have to remember to log out of my own account before checking out.

Same as you, Aussie.

Tom and Lucy may wonder why Netflix is sending them recommendations - based on your selections. I also wonder if you are reducing the ability for them to log in at home? Here are Netflix different plans https://help.netflix.com/en/node/24926/us I have Basic, so if it was my account, I wouldn't be able to watch from home if you were logged in as 'me'. So, for consideration, it may be better that you log them off and log in as 'you'.

Watch away--they have the ability to log out, and this costs them nothing. I find Netflix's what to watch suggestions worthless anyway.

It wouldn’t keep me awake at night.

Streaming is like a buffet, it's all you can eat. You are not charged per view. So your use of someone else's account costs them nothing, but after a while they will notice something is going on.

You should really get a VPN and watch your own Aussie Netflix account, you'll have access to all the shows you would at home.

I have Basic, so if it was my account, I wouldn't be able to watch from home if you were logged in as 'me'. So, for consideration, it may be better that you log them off and log in as 'you'.

That frequently happens to me staying at an AirBnB, and I usually don't worry about it. If the person who forgot to log out has account limitations like Maria's, Netflix always sends a message telling that person that there is an additional user and asks if they want to log them out. So you might be booted off in the middle of something, but you won't be depriving someone else of the chance to watch.

You should really get a VPN and watch your own Aussie Netflix account, you'll have access to all the shows you would at home.

I have a VPN and have been doing this on my iPad while travelling. It's just nice to watch on a bigger screen and we have had a couple of Smart TVs where other people's Netflix has been available.

Yes, it's wrong.

"Tom and Lucy" need to be scolded and chastised for not signing out and failing to secure their own accounts.

Notwithstanding another's failure to secure their own login information, it's not "your's" and "you" don't have permission. The moral thing to do would be to delete the login information and forget it. Just because you believe you're innocently streaming and you're not causing harm, it does not make it right.

I don't think watching Netflix under someone else's account justifies the moral outrage shown above, Aussie. :)

However one thing I would do before you leave is log out of the account. Someone not as nice as you might play havoc with it. It's an easy thing to do - just go to the main profile (usually the first one listed) then go up to the profile icon in the upper right hand corner and click "Sign out of Netflix."

If Tom and Lucy forgot to sign out, that is their problem. They can kick you out if they notice later there are too many sign-ins to their account.

It's a good reminder to us all though to practice good streaming hygiene.

That happened to us in Scotland last September and since the hotel wasn’t right in town and as weather outside wasn’t great, we binged 15 episodes of Eastenders since we no longer get it on our PBS station. I don’t recall if I logged out of their account for them when we left. However, my and Aussie’s experience is why I never log into a tv overseas. I’ll log in on my tablet.

If it were me, I would enjoy whatever is free to Tom and Lucy. And, remind myself to always log out when I'm not at home.

Sometimes my neighbor goes to work and leaves his front door unlocked so I go in, get in his Barksloinger and watch his cable. No issues.

No, it's not "ok". Rationalize all you want. Doesn't belong to you and it was not the owners intent to lend it to you.

IMO, this is not ok. If it isn't yours and you do not have permission, use your own.

After reading the negative responses, re-read Kim’s response… i agree with her.

So we have two camps.

Camp 1 says it's okay to use the property or possession of another without their permission if these criteria are met:
a) the owner failed to properly secure his property.
b) the unauthorized use of the property did not cost the owner any money or cause him material harm
c) EDIT: must not be an illegal act.
d) EDIT: sees the issue as one of etiquette

Camp 1 labels dissenting views as Moral Outrage.

Camp 2 says that it is never acceptable to use someone else's property without their permission (EDIT) and sees the issue of one of morality or ethics.

Camp 2 hasn't yet labeled the dissenting viewpoint.

Camp 1 appears to hold the majority. Interesting. I have a new viewpoint on taking a RS tour.

So, if someone left a book in a suite, I shouldn't read it?

Sometimes my neighbor goes to work and leaves his front door unlocked so I go in, get in his Barksloinger and watch his cable. No issues. No, it's not "ok". Rationalize all you want. Doesn't belong to you and it was not the owners intent to lend it to you.

Mister E, your analogy makes no sense. If if you go into your neighbor's house without his consent, regardless of what you did in there, you are "breaking and entering" and your neighbor could legally call the police and have you arrested.

However, the OP did not commit a crime. They did not break in - they are paying for the use of the lodging and for the use of the TV, which the owner has put there for them to use. If someone uses that TV and forgets to log off, why should the OP have to go to the trouble of figuring out how to log them off? That is not their problem. For all they know, it's the owner's account.

And quite frankly, you don't even know what this person's intent was. I was curious so I did a little googling and found that many people say they forget to log off all the time. Some said they deliberately do not log out because they don't care if other people use it. Either way, the onus is not on the OP - it's on the person who did not log out of their Netflix account.

Are ”Tom and Lucy” the owners of the apartment or previous guests who forgot to log out? At my last apartment rental, the owners had several streaming services on the smart tv for guest use. They listed this in their info sheet.

I’m in Camp 3 - I don’t watch TV (broadcast, dish, cable, streaming, whatever) while on vacation, so I’d never have even noticed if a screen was logged in or not. And a Smart TV? I guess I’m not smart enough to know what one is. So many around this Forum have figured out how to get the “most” out of their (and others’) travels … is watching programs part of that, with so many foreign sights and activities available just outside the door? TV waits until I get home.

If you paid for a room, it would seem the amenities are part of the room. But if it’s clear to you that something belongs to a previous guest, isn’t included, and if they’re missing having it, then they should get it back. If it was a pair of underwear, would it get worn? But if the underwear has to be logged out to allow someone to wear their own, then it’s a barrier to the current occupant’s pleasant stay. Good thing there’s not digital lingerie.

If it’s bothering you that using something is probably wrong, then it probably is. But if it prevents you from doing your own streaming, the logged-on but departed people are affecting you.

Are ”Tom and Lucy” the owners of the apartment or previous guests who forgot to log out?

We didn't know and had no easy way to find out. All we had was a door code to access the apartment.

is watching programs part of that, with so many foreign sights and activities available just outside the door? TV waits until I get home.

Our trip is 60 days long and I have a chronic illness so in order to make the most of the foreign sights and activities I need to plan rest periods. My illness affects my eyes so reading a book isn't always an option.

In my country if you rent an apartment or holiday house streaming services are usually part of the deal. But then so are things like salt and pepper, olive oil, firewood etc.

AussieNomad, I can understand that you need some R&R with your illness. If it’s not costing Tom and Lucy for you to watch, I’m sure they should understand, too.

Also, you were avoiding anything R rated. But what difference would it make even if you watched XXX rated things? Or are there “cookies” that track what is seen on an account, and then would similar programs be recommended to them, or would something unsavory reflect negatively on them? I don’t know about that, so don’t see what harm there would be, if they didn’t care or didn’t know. It’s not like you were using up their viewing allotment, right?

@AussieNomad; In your opening post you wrote this

“ In a couple of apartments we have had Smart TVs and when I have gone to log into my own streaming services….”

and

“. I am not very tech savvy and have no idea how I would log someone else out on a Smart TV so I could log in.”

So you’re saying that you do know how to log into your own accounts, but you’re not tech savvy enough to log out. Does that mean that you yourself don’t log out from your own accounts? I ask because logging out from someone else’s account is exactly the same process as logging out from your own account.
If you’re tech savvy enough to be able to log out from your own accounts, you can also log out from Tom and Lucy’s and Sylvia’s account.
But if you’re not tech savvy enough to log out at all, you shouldn’t log in onto the smart tv in a hotel or holiday appartement.

Minor technical infraction at best. I wouldn't worry about it. It's true we all should be savy enough to mind our logins and security . That's the important message here. Far worse log in remainders there are.

It's criminal behavior, plain and simple without dissembling or equivocation. In 2016, the US 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (sometimes referred to as the "9th Circus Court") ruled that sharing online passwords is a crime prosecutable under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.

Does good "streaming hygiene" mean you take a shower first? I've sat next to people who I wished had taken a shower. Whew!

My rentals tended to come with comprehensive information on how to use the TV and streaming. Otherwise, I expect a quick note to the host requesting how to use the TV and streaming should let you know how to proceed.

BigMikeWestByGodVirginia; okay, sharing a password is a crime (makes sense), but is it a crime to use someone's password without their authorization? Because that's what is being described.

I would use it without worrying about it (could be the owner's account) but I wouldn't 'like' or add anything to 'my list'.

My husband's family owns a beach condo that is rented out. I always make sure to log out of the streaming services I sign on to, but if I forgot I really wouldn't care if someone else used it. Unless it was Amazon Prime and they bought something with it.

The question was about etiquette. Etiquette is about your behavior in a social environment. I think borrowing someone's service without their permission is a breach of etiquette, whether or not it is legal. Even if there is no cost to the person paying for the service. Just like using my neighbors wifi for free just because he doesn't know how to set up password protection. But then we're all used to doing what we can easily get away with these days.

It's criminal behavior, plain and simple without dissembling or equivocation. In 2016, the US 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (sometimes referred to as the "9th Circus Court") ruled that sharing online passwords is a crime prosecutable under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.

Mike, that opinion, which dealt with something entirely different (an employee sharing a password to access the employer's data illegally) has nothing to do with this situation, and in fact, the court addressed the fact that many people on Netflix and other streaming services share passwords without fear of criminal liability and said that those situations were exceptions.

I think everyone here (including me) is kind of going off the deep end a bit. Every one of us our own personal standards, and these standards are different than anyone else's. Regardless, this is definitely NOT criminal behavior and no one should be suggesting that it is.

Fascinating…….soft pedaled pro and con discourse on a “I feel good about theft of service thread.” Reminds me of should I pay a traffic tkt in Italy subject line. I can see why Netflix is entertaining cracking down on “innocent” behavior.

This is from someone who once drove 103kph on a 100kph limit highway, and who purchased a foam gavel at the dollar store next door to Yale.

"The moral thing to do would be to delete the login information and forget it." - This information is not available once the device has been logged into. You can, however, log out of the apps you are watching, not the TV itself. That is easy enough.

Sharing a password is not illegal. Stealing or using another person's password without their permission is illegal if criminal intent is involved.

There is no criminal intent on the OP's part. She is not reading any personal information, does not intend to incur any extra charges, and we have to take her at her word regarding R-rated programming (ummmmm?).

The smart TV is not owned by the previous renter. If the previous renter subscribed to a magazine and accidentally left a copy on the coffee table, the OP is allowed to read it.

After considerable deliberation, AussiNomad is charged with being unable to log out of an app and is hereby ordered to slip me an extra shrimp on the barbie the next time I'm in Australia.

Gundersen, very insightful and that was an excellent analogy. Congrats. :) Hopefully this will end the debate.

I can see why Netflix is entertaining cracking down on “innocent” behavior.

And an innocent behavior that Netflix encouraged and promoted.

You're doing wrong.

Oh, I just found the owners laptop and I'll use it. I'm not doing anything wrong.

Sorry but you are doing wrong but probably not for much longer as the streaming services are all cracking down on where to use it.
This is no better than using your neighbors WIFI because it's not locked down.

Illegal access to a network or device is not what the OP is describing.

If you asked about it, that should tell you something. If you felt ok with it, you wouldn't have asked.

We often do not know if we are doing the right thing, but we always know when we are doing the wrong one.

If you asked about it, that should tell you something. If you felt ok with it, you wouldn't have asked.

I felt OK with it. My husband said it was wrong.

It's criminal behavior, plain and simple without dissembling or equivocation. In 2016, the US 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (sometimes referred to as the "9th Circus Court") ruled that sharing online passwords is a crime prosecutable under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act.

BigMike no US Court has jurisdiction in Spain and US laws have no relevance to this situation.

So you’re saying that you do know how to log into your own accounts, but you’re not tech savvy enough to log out. Does that mean that you yourself don’t log out from your own accounts?

No, I don't log out from my Netflix account (shared family account). I have not logged out for several years. I access Netflix on my iPad (which I have with me on my trip) and on my TV at home. For my iPad my fingerprint is my password and it never asks for a specific Netflix password.

What's more concerning for me is the conscience of the dollar store owner where I bought my foam gavel. He charged me $2.00 (for the mathematically challenged, that's double what his storefront sign implies). A few days later and miles away I saw the identical gavel in a different store for $1.25. Buyer beware, I say.

This thread gave me much entertainment while I had my coffee this morning.

The self-righteousness and judgement! Especially funny was the idea that nobody should ever watch tv while in Europe. I guess we are supposed to spend every waking minute sitting in cafés, sipping espressos, and trying not to look like tourists while imagining we are, ourselves, European (who, of course, would never, ever watch television).

LOL.

Mister E, it would depend upon how a prosecutor interpreted the law.

AussieNomad, Au contraire mon frère. https://www.aa.com.tr/en/economy/netflix-imposes-password-sharing-rules-on-4-countries/2812294

And unauthorized password usage is considered fraud in Spain. Article 18-4º of the Spanish Constitution specifically provides that the use of information technology cannot be made at the expense of honour and respect of the private lives of Spanish citizens. Article 401 of the Spanish Penal Code, which sanctions the theft of civil identity with a term of imprisonment ranging from 6 months up to 3 years. It's also a privacy issue as you have access to the previous viewer's streaming information.

https://www.mariscal-abogados.com/penalties-and-sanctions-for-digital-identity-theft-in-spain/

BB, it's not funny when the mattress tag inspector shows up to your house and you ripped the tag off while leasing the mattress. This is against the law as I didn't own it. It was embarrassing being perp-walked while my neighbors were watching. (FYI, do NOT use the blankets they give you in jail.)

Gundersen, does this mean you have to cut your travel budget, seeing as you've lost money?

Tom and Lucy. They sound as old and boring as us, Mike and Mary. The only thing worse would be John and Jane.

In the case of unauthorized access of personal data, in article 197, the punishment can range from imprisonment between 1 to 4 years and a fine lasting between 12 and 24 months. Additionally, if the personal information is shared to a third party, the punishment increases to imprisonment between 2 to 5 years.

Also, currently being considered in the Cortes Generales: People who share their Netflix, Amazon Prime, or Disney+ passwords are violators of copyright law. The Spanish Government's Intellectual Property Office announced a new campaign in partnership with Meta, aiming to help people avoid piracy and counterfeit goods online: "Piracy is a major issue for the entertainment and creative industries. Unauthorized use of images into your social media, password sharing on streaming services and accessing the latest films, tv series or live sports events through kodi boxes, fire sticks or Apps without paying a subscription all break copyright laws. Not only are you breaking the law but stopping someone earning a living from their hard work."

BB, it's not funny when the mattress tag inspector shows up to your house and you ripped the tag off while leasing the mattress. This is against the law as I didn't own it. I was embarrassing being perp-walked while my neighbors were watching. (FYI, do NOT use the blankets they give you in jail.)

Thanks for the warning, BigMike. I turn my mattress regularly, so I would tell the inspector that it just fell off in the process, and hopefully that would keep me out of jail. And heaven forbid--I would never, ever, ever watch television in bed--not even my own Netflix. How gauche!

BB, what can I say? Some people just have no class, refinement, dignity, or culture.

Nick, perhaps not at the moment.

I was “Tom and Lucy” once. I used my Netflix account at a VRBO rental and forgot to sign out. A few weeks later I tried to sign in from home and couldn’t because the account was already in use. I then noticed some reminders to continue watching shows that I never started. After trying some trouble shooting, I found a device that wasn’t mine on my account. That’s when I remembered using it at the rental. I had to call Netflix to get the device removed from my account and then I promptly changed my password. It all felt a little creepy. Lesson learned.

Kim, it's actually very easy now to sign off someone else's device from your Netflix account. Just go to Netflix online, click on your profile in the upper right hand corner, and a drop down box will appear. Click on "Account" and the then, where it lists Security and Privacy, click "Manage Access and Devices."

You will then see all the devices that are attached to your Netflix account. If there is any device that you do not recognize, just sign it out. Easy peasy. :)

This thread gave me much entertainment while I had my coffee this morning.
The self-righteousness and judgement! Especially funny was the idea that nobody should ever watch tv while in Europe. I guess we are supposed to spend every waking minute sitting in cafés, sipping espressos, and trying not to look like tourists while imagining we are, ourselves, European (who, of course, would never, ever watch television).
LOL.

Wow, at least that was worth a LOL, but talk about self-righteous and judgemental - - I don’t watch TV on vacation, but everyone else is free to do as they please. FYI, some of us spend little, if any, time sitting in a cafe, or sipping an espresso anywhere, so again, it’s different for everybody. I know that lots of Europeans watch lots of television. Good for them. Enjoy your TV, too. LOL

BigMike, I appreciate your concern for my travel budget. Any overspending on necessary items is usually more than made up for by obtaining free access to Netflix in my apartment rental.

Thanks, Cyn. I will.

I actually rarely watch TV on vacation. My most recent trip, at least two of the places we stayed didn't even have TVs. However, I see nothing wrong with it and don't see the point in chastising someone because they do.

Amen, BB. I like watching the news or local programming at night before bed, or in the morning while getting ready. It's interesting to get the local take on things. An undervalued part of travel.

Gundersen, I'm humbled by your kind words.

What Mister E and Stan said.

No harm done! (just watching innocent things and not incurring any charges) And it's their fault for not logging out.
Actually once we encountered this in a hotel and changed everyone's little avatars to something fun...Dad got a pink princess type, Grandma got an action hero, etc. I think that family learned a lesson!

My attitude would be driven by how I'd feel if the situation was reversed and it was me who had failed to log out of the account.
I think I'd appreciate a little courtesy and consideration from a fellow traveler, wouldn't you?

My attitude would be driven by how I'd feel if the situation was reversed and it was me who had failed to log out of the account.

I would be fine with it. I don't see it as any different to someone leaving a book in an apartment. I have often left my paperback novel in apartments when I have finished reading it.

As I said nothing I did incurred any cost to Tom and Lucy and I have no idea if they were my hosts and had intended to leave Netflix logged in on the TV. We had booked the apartment through booking.com.

I agree with the book on a table analogy - I had never thought of that and love it. Thanks AussieNomad

This seems to be the makings of the next binge-worthy Netflix super hit … “Tom and Lucy’s Big Adventure!”

Tom and Lucy embark on a whirlwind tour of Europe, and hilarity ensues. Departing from their rented apartment in Spain, Lucy fails to log out of her Netflix account (or maybe it was Amazon Prime), but shows keep getting watched. Tom is furious and chews Lucy out, in really fast Spanish (‘cause they’re in Spain).

SPOILER ALERTS

In Italy, Lucy enrolls in an immersive experience, where she’s stomping grapes for wine in a wooden vat. It becomes a big competition against a local grape stomper wearing a traditional dress, and in no time, the two are wrestling in the dark purple must.

In another episode, set on a Tuesday in Belgium (because if it’s Tuesday … ) Lucy gets involved on an assembly line, trying to dip as many chocolate pralines as she can. Meanwhile, Tom is served a beer in the wrong glass for the brand he ordered. He contemplates not leaving a tip

Then in a major city (I’m not giving away the location), Lucy foils a pickpocketing ring. The police award her an honorary title.

In Britain, they rent (hire) an impossibly long trailer, which they tow with an old MGB GT. They wind up on very narrow roads, with one tight hairpin curve after another. The car has a manual gearbox, and their friends back home, Horace and Ethyl, berate them for not getting an automatic.

I am glad this discussion has moved from court rulings and criminal prosecution to creativity. And I too like the open book.

Tom, "Lucy, you got a lotta 'splainin to do!"

Whatevs, as the kids say. Wake me up when you murdered Tom and Lucy for their Netflix password and we can talk about morals :)

They finally get back onto the motorway. Passing Stonehenge, they comment on how small and uninteresting it seems, but Lucy takes out her list and ticks the box, because, technically, they've seen it. Anyhow, they're in a hurry to get to their next rental in the Cotswalds. Tom wonders if there's a big screen tv there.

… They arrive at the Cotswolds cottage, but the front door won’t open. Lucy crawls through a window in back, and lets her husband in, who’s got all their luggage (non-wheeled) under both arms or by the handles. There are open books on the table, which Lucy scans through, as Tom switches on the wide-screen TV. It’s set on some English game show.

In the bedroom, there are clothes. They’re Lucy’s size, so …

Later, two people show up. It’s their place. Turns out that Tom and Lucy are in Chipping Norton, but their reserved place is in Chipping Campden. The local constabulary see Lucy’s flaming red hair and wonder if she’s Irish. Tom’s been watching the telly this whole time.

The officer asks for Lucy and Tom's passports. They have to undo some of their clothing to pull them out of their money belt and neck pouch. The string of Lucy's neck pouch gets caught in her flaming red hair, and the officer helps her, fondling her hair as he untangles the string. He runs a check on Lucy and Tom and discovers that they are the famous pickpocket foilers, so he lets them go with a warning. Tom asks if he can finish watching the show first, but the officer, thinking he must be daft, marches them to their car.

On the way to their real rental, Lucy writes a one-star review for the place they just left, because she didn't care for the reading material. Also, one chair was too soft, and the other was too hard.

Your husband is absolutely right. Do the right thing no matter the circumstance.

You’re in Spain — enjoy Spanish television! We never watch American programming or English speaking tv when in a foreign country in which English is not the main language. We embrace this opportunity! 🙂

In another episode, Tom and Lucy go to Florence. Tom decides to rent a red Ferrari Spider, because they are in Italy and it is his dream. He drives down a one-way street the wrong way and parks in the Piazza della Signoria, so Lucy can see the statue of David. But then she reads in her guide book that it is a copy. The police check his drivers license, but he does not have an IDP (Horace told him he didn't need one), so they give him a 508 EUR ticket. The incident gets reported on CNN.

Epilogue, when they get home they find 15 ZTL notices and 4 speeding tickets in their mailbox.

… Lucy looks up, squints her eyes, and cries, Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!” Cut to the closing credits, and cue the next episode, where Lucy finds a debit card hanging out of an ATM, and a €20 bill stuck in the withdrawal slot.

Yes AussieNomad, do not read that book the previous guests left on the table, that would be wrong and unethical as you did not pay for it, lol.

Many years ago we stayed at a cute little cabin on a property outside of Dallas. I can't remember if it was a B&B or just a rental; it was a LONG time ago, but I do remember the property owner was on the property.

There were a few small bookcases scattered around the place that had a small sampling of books on them. One of them had a book i had been looking for for years. (I Capture the Castle by Dodie Smith, published in 1948) I was thrilled. I asked the homeowner if I could purchase it from her, or borrow it with a promise to send it back.

She was astonished that anyone actually looked at the books on her shelves, and told me to just take it. Book is now easily findable at the public library since I moved to San Antonio.

Em

Tom & Lucy were technically smart enough to put their Netflix account on the smart TV in the first place they are well aware of how to delete it. Watch on!

It's not the same as a book, unless you're making monthly payments on the book.

I am assuming that many would give a different answer if the OP had chosen to watch some of the Netflix pay-per-view offerings. Or is that not an consideration?

It is the same as a book. The monthly cost of Netflix is the same no matter who watches it. Just like a book Mike.

Stan, AussieNomad already made the point that she would not watch anything that would cost more money, or anything R rated. Your scenario is a different topic.

Who decided R was justified anything. Did you choose on behalf of the owner? I know of a religiously observant family that would be furious is someone watched a lot of non-R topics on THEIR service; or if they mistakenly thought a family member had watched them. In some cultures it could get a family member punished. But okay, still their fault for not logging out, so sleep easy.

Susan, yes I got that. I'm trying to understand what would be the deciding factor in peoples' minds That is, I'm getting that people think it's OK only if no cost was incurred.

I think that’s a correct assumption. If it cost the account holder money i think we all, including AussieNomad, would say no.

Hey folks, this thread has led to some issues and I think the different points of view have had their day. I'm closing the thread.