Sketchiness and Safety In Big European Cities - Impressions and Experiences

Travel advice or ruminations on life in the city?

Bit of both. Ruminations can be used as good advice too.

Away from Europe, how many people have been off the tourist trail in New York? I've been up to South Bronx to visit and smoke with a friend of a friend (in 2007). Seemed ok to me. I've been to gigs in Greenpoint, Brooklyn and clubbing in Williamsburg. Greenpoint was still on the way to gentrification then. I wasn't phased by riding the subway back to midtown Manhattan at 3 or 4am (with friends), or the flotsam and jetsam of a midtown Wendy's at silly o'clock. Quite adventurous even for New Yorkers and east coasters?

GerryM, how old are you?

I ask your age because my willingness to "take a walk on the wild side" has shifted greatly over the years. I am in my late 60s, and I really have no interest in spending time in sketchy areas, particularly after dark, in Europe or even at home in the US. I travel with my wife, and I don't care to expose her to something that I am no longer capable of "handling" myself. In all honesty, I feel more vulnerable at my age than I did as recently as 10 years ago, and definitely more vulnerable than I did as a young man.

There is no right or wrong, it is up to each person to decide their comfort level. I responded on the thread you mentioned about the Paris arena, and I gave my opinion, and I emphasized my age and that I would not want to be in that area at night (the OP is in his mid 60s, I am a few years older, so I shared my feelings as a fellow senior citizen). I felt like a couple of folks on that thread, people with an opposite opinion, ridiculed my take. Maybe it was gentle ribbing, but really, I wish people would just give their opinion without calling into question whatt some other poster says...say what you think, and don't reference what someone else has said in the thread. Let others make up their own mind...

I'm 51.
When I'm rambling like this, I do refer to stuff I did when I was younger. I do still live in an inner London borough though and I'm fairly in touch with street life through just being around. I was around Glasgow from age 12 or so, and London and Amsterdam from 18. I've never really had a violent incident walking on the wild side and and if I can blah blah about things I've done that kept me safe, someone might find some interest in it. Some stuff can be "I've done this and this" self indulgent waffling admittedly, but maybe it's something alongside the hard facts this forum is good for that brings a little colour.

I ask your age because my willingness to "take a walk on the wild side" has shifted greatly over the years. I am in my late 60s, and I really have no interest in spending time in sketchy areas, particularly after dark, in Europe or even at home in the US. I travel with my wife, and I don't care to expose her to something that I am no longer capable of "handling" myself. In all honesty, I feel more vulnerable at my age than I did as recently as 10 years ago, and definitely more vulnerable than I did as a young man.

I had always assumed your gender as female from your username! [edit: I'm still assuming gender. You may well be a same sex couple] How interesting!

Yeah, of course you're right. I've got the best part of 20 years on you and I'm still a big kid at heart. I have the privilege of being over 6' tall with a shaved head, so straight off the bat I'm at an advantage, even though I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag in reality. I had assumed your gender as female all this time, so I did have women's safety in mind; that's a whole different issue. That's something I'm always ready to be schooled on by a woman when I talk about stepping out in cities putting fear to one side.

I've talked before about how tourist attractions in cities don't hold that much interest to me. I like to use cities as cities. One of the main thrusts of that post is pushing the idea that there's experiences to be had off the beaten track in cities, and not everyone is out to get you. I maybe wouldn't seek out getting into really dodgy situations through enjoying music, dancing and everything that goes with that that I did 25 or 30 years ago, but if you're interested in life right now in real time, rather than history, in European cities, it pays to push the limits of your comfort zone sometimes.

say what you think, and don't reference what someone else has said in the thread.

I find saying something that runs a bit contrary to a previous post, without directly referencing what someone has previously said, a bit vague sometimes. I prefer to be a bit more direct if I can. Now that you've responded directly and I've taken on board the points you made, we've had a discussion. I prefer it when it works that way. No offence intended if I was being a bit belligerent with opinions.

It is definitely up to everyone to decide their own comfort level. The stuff I was saying about whether or not to engage with people asking for money is something that's going to be on a case by case basis, as an example of being flexible. I've decided over years of being out and about, generally don't want to give people money for drugs and the stories they tell are usually lies made up to get money for for drugs. It's just opinion stuff where other people may start at a more charitable level.

Agreeing with Carrie, with emphasis on the life experience. And the personal vulnerability - not everyone looks intimidating to potential troublemakers. Some of us look like easy targets. It's a calculation each person makes of the level of risk to them, versus the potential consequences of something bad happening.

In the US, we expect a mugging to be more likely to be violent, with a high likelihood of weapons being involved.** It's what we hear about every day, so that's our default expectation when abroad. And they all start with strangers approaching you on the street.

An RS tour leader (an American living in Europe) on one of our first tours told me that one of the differences between US big cities and European big cities is that in Europe, the more expensive and desirable areas to live were nearest the centers. Whereas in the US the urban areas were the least desirable, vs the suburbs. In my city, public transportation is considered sketchy because "only poor people use buses". Obviously a gross generalization, with many exceptions in the US, but if you associate lower income and rents with higher crime, it's what you travel with. People from small towns seem more wary, not timid.

** just read a statistic that 52% of households in my state have weapons

told me that one of the differences between US big cities and European big cities is that in Europe, the more expensive and desirable areas to live were nearest the centers. Whereas in the US the urban areas were the least desirable, vs the suburbs.

I have heard this and while true in the 70s I don’t think it’s so true anymore with gentrification. And a lot of far flung suburban areas have poor construction and are not aging well, and have gotten pretty trashy and have petty crime.

52% of households in my state have weapons

With all the hunting in the US (particularly in the northern states where the deer get huge) it’s not really a meaningful number.

Timely topic, I'm 6'2" and a fit 200lbs, but 61 years old. A couple of recent incidents made me wonder if I'm more vulnerable than I think. I was walking my daughter's dog at an off-leash park last week. The dog is very friendly and seeks other dogs to play with. I'm not concerned when he runs 100 metres or so in front of me to say hello to other dogs. But this day there was a guy with three German Shepherds leashed around his waist and he clearly had no control over them. He was screaming at me to recall my dog, which I did. While my dog is walking beside me and in complete control and passed him with his dogs are snarling and snapping on their leashes, he's calling me all kinds of names for not having my dog under control. Me being me, I had some "helpful" suggestions where he and his dogs should be (and it wasn't at an off-leash park). He ended the conversation by suggesting that it was too bad I hadn't died of covid yet with the rest of the millennials. It was the first time it occurred to me that I'm no youngster anymore and others may be angry that I'm a millennial.

On the other end, yesterday in Amsterdam, some teens gave up their seats for my wife and I on a tram; like we're some old farts needing help. We weren't offended, just surprised that the younger generations think we're not one of them and closer to frail and needing help.

To answer your question, I don't feel nervous yet, but maybe I need to start thinking about it since I'm apparently no longer 20 and bulletproof.

differences between your experiences of North American cities and
European cities

GerryM, I think it’s a well-intentioned post, but one that can’t possibly be answered unless you think London and Athens are synonymous as an example for all of European cities and Chicago and Dan Diego are synonymous are represent all North American cities. Then safe as a resident or safe as a tourist? Safe for a week or safe as a place for generations of your family to flourish and prosper. Well, on that last one North America is safer than Europe. Safe for WASPs or safe for ……. oh heck, pick one.

just read a statistic that 52% of households in my state have weapons

As a non-American I'm kinds surprised it's that low, but I'm going from stereotype. I used to talk with many Americans while I was working and they were were always shocked when I told them I've never even held a gun before. Every single one of them that I discussed something like that with, own a handgun for safety.

It reminds me of a conversation with an Uber Driver that I wrote about in a Trip Report a couple of years ago while getting a ride from Baltimoreto Washington;

I asked him if it was profitable for him to take a fare from Baltimore
to DC and he said he’s from DC and had just taken a fair from there to
Baltimore and was especially thrilled because he says he thought he’d
have to take a couple of fares within Baltimore. He didn’t want that
because in his words “Baltimore scares me.” Our driver was a
50-year-old African American who grew up in DC and says he’s seen the
transformation of DC from scary to “much better.” This kicked off an
hour-long conversation that touched on all topics including politics,
racism, and safety. He talked about his discomfort in DC for him and
two of his three adult kids who still live there. He said while it’s
safer, there are still problems and he joked that his 3rd child is in
the army and is probably safer than all of them. We brought up that it
was hard to understand where he's coming from because we don’t feel
that way at home. Then I brought up that I’ve never even held a gun
before, and he snapped his head around to look at me while driving
65mph down the freeway and asked me “how do you protect your wife?” He
asked it with such passion that Carla and I didn’t know what to say at
first and could only tell him that we just don’t live in a place that
people think it’s necessary. He just shook his head and said he needed
to be quiet for a moment to absorb what we just said. Finally, he said
he was envious and couldn’t imagine not having to worry about personal
safety.

I wrote in the TR that I felt completely safe on that trip.

how do you protect your wife?

Private handgun ownership was illegal in the District till about 15 years ago. Maybe he grew up in Maryland close to the district? Or a lot has happened in the last 15 years. Until recently I had 2 children living in central DC and didn’t worry about their welfare.

I am in my late 70s and have traveled to 83 foreign countries, all but 6 US states and lived in two foreign countries.

First, I will address Europe. We lived in Germany from 87 until 91 working for the US Army in Bavaria. Back then the trains ALWAYS ran on time and countries like Germany, Switzerland were so safe, you could go almost anywhere. We went back to where we lived in Bavaria last year, took a taxi around where we lived, and explored how the city had changed. Our cabdriver told us a lot, as well as a German friend that we knew back when we lived there.

Clearly, Germany has changed and not for the better. The Germans warned us about when NOT to go at night. What caused the change? According to our friend, the taxi driver and others we casually met, the mass immigration into Germany especially from the Middle East.

Regarding the rest of Europe, we haven't found crime to be a major issue, but in visiting places like Paris, London or large cities there are areas that are not advisable to visit, especially at night. I wanted to go to see St. Dennis north of Paris, but couldn't find a cabdriver that would take us there. Violent crime is less in the large cities of Europe than in US large cities. Still, places like Barcelona (especially Barcelona), Paris and Rome, you should be concerned about pickpockets. I have been to Barcelona 3-4 times and each time, someone in our party or someone we met on travel had been a victim of pickpockets.

I worked at the Pentagon and lived in the Washington, DC area for some years and it was common knowledge that it was unsafe to even drive your car through some areas. We lived in Northern Va and it was generally much safer than DC or parts of Maryland east of DC. I remember going to a Baltimore Orioles baseball game in downtown Baltimore in the 90s and got lost coming back to Va. I drove through parts of Baltimore that were absolutely frightening.

Countries that I felt absolutely safe in exploring in large cities included Tokyo. Japan was fantastic and it was special. Didn't feel that way about Mumbai, India.

Visiting countries referred to as Third World countries, vigilance is very important. As a kid, I remember it was safe to walk across the border into Mexico for a day visit that even ended in the dark. No more, reliable sources warn us that almost half of Mexico is virtually controlled by drug cartels. Mexico City is safe to visit if you stay in tourist places, but not others. Buenos Aires is not safe in about one third of its territory (according to what we were warned by locals). If you see many, many homes with 10 ft. walls and massive barbed wire on top driving from the airport into the city like in Quito, Ecuador or Lima, Peru, then be careful.

We visit my Son that lives in Philadelphia every year. He lives on Market St. right downtown. The downtown area is pretty safe, but he says there are areas to avoid. That is consistently good advice in large US cities.
I live in coastal Georgia in a community with an extremely low crime rate, but a moderately sized city a few miles away is not a place to go at night. Still, it is not as bad a parts of Atlanta.

”There is no right or wrong, it is up to each person to decide their comfort level.”

As I am older (late 60’s) with white hair, I tend to stick out when walking around in Europe. I’ve had a couple of times where my gut instinct said, “Turn around” on a street, and as a female, I didn’t question it and turned around.

I was surprised in Bologna last month when I asked a couple of men at my hotel reception desk if there was any place on the city center map they gave me I should avoid because I like to wander. They looked at me and pointed to a few streets. I really appreciated their response. I am not looking to see how close I can come to a situation that could mar my trip.

And per the gun question/stat: In Idaho I am sure it’s much higher. Lots of hunters in this state are providing deer meat, etc. & fishing to feed their families. I grew up in Iowa, and it was also common to hunt deer (people come from out-of-state to hunt because of the deer’s “corn-fed” diet) & also pheasant hunting is popular for the meat.

Timely topic, I'm 6'2" and a fit 200lbs, but 61 years old. A couple of recent incidents made me wonder if I'm more vulnerable than I think.

I am 6'3" and a fit 180 lbs, but I am 68 and I can tell you that from when I was your age to today, a 7 year spread, my feelings of vulnerability have increased a lot. I am in command of my mental faculties, I have excellent hearing and eyesight, but if some young tough were to decide to get physical with me, I am concerned that I might get hurt badly, possibly killed, so I pay attention to where I go, time of day, and so on.

Back in the day, 30+ years ago, I could take care of myself, and most importantly, I could protect my wife and our young kids in any such situation like that. But today, I know I am no longer that younger version of myself. And there is a lot of mayhem in the world, particularly here in the US, and I try my best to avoid placing myself (and my wife) in sketchy situations, be it here in the US, or on foreign soil.

Great topic of discussion, Gerry!

I've lived in DC for nearly 23 years. It's changed a lot in that time, some for the better, some for the worse.

When I first moved down here I hadn't lived in a true big city. Growing up in downtown Salt Lake City seemed like an urban upbringing but it was a fairly sanitized city, by the by, and while there were pockets of crime and gang activity it was never a big deal. DC, on first glace, was a lot rougher. My partner and I ended up renting in a more upscale neighborhood, compromising on space in exchange for feeling "safe."

It didn't take long after moving to DC to realize that, while some neighborhoods are rougher around the edges and have their share of crime, there isn't a neighborhood I've been to that has seemed patently unsafe to walk or bike in. Even those that folks said "you should never go there," like Barry Farm, were just places where people lived, worked, and recreated in their own way. I've always felt welcome, even as a tall and skinny white guy (now age 52), often on a bicycle and in lycra.

And I've now spent a lot of time in Baltimore, NYC, Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia, Denver, Dallas, Los Angeles, New Orleans, Miami, San Francisco, Portland (OR), Seattle, and so many other cities with their own urban woes. I tend to wander well outside of the tourist-focused areas and actually tend to enjoy them more because the people tend to be a bit less wound up. When you make an effort to visit neighborhoods where the regular residents live, observe the patterns, and just live in the moment it all tends to work well.

So when I go to big cities in Europe I tend to just wander wherever. Sure, I've come upon unseemly stuff, some rough characters, hustlers, etc., but they're just part of the urban landscape. Are they a threat? Seldom. I do read the room and will alter my path if I sense that things aren't entirely on the up-and-up and might get bad (e.g. outside of some late-night clubs, or outside of sports complexes if there was a particularly important match going on, or if there's some sort of extremist protest) but it's never been a case of "I really feel unsafe."

My partner, who is the same age as me, has also adjusted her expectations and comfort zones. She's extremely crowd averse by nature, so she's not often as unstressed by certain situations, but she also wanders big cities on her own, via foot, bike, or transit, and hasn't been in a situation where things have felt unsafe beyond her ability to control or avoid bad interactions.

I understand that I'm probably on the younger end of the spectrum of folks on the RS community forums, and know that my outlook may change as I get older. We shall see. But right now I'm an eager explorer of all the nooks and crannies of great world cities - both the glamorous sides and the more unvarnished stuff.

Folks saying really interesting things.

An RS tour leader (an American living in Europe) on one of our first tours told me that one of the differences between US big cities and European big cities is that in Europe, the more expensive and desirable areas to live were nearest the centers. Whereas in the US the urban areas were the least desirable, vs the suburbs

This sort of ties into what Mr E was saying further down about how valid the average American vs the average European city is as a comparison.

With a few exceptions, the commonality between American cities is how they are laid out according to zoning compared to the average European city. The European city as a destination would usually have an old centre where the tourists generally go, but many people still live, and then rings of neighbourhoods that are residential but contain a wide variety of life. That's more where I'm talking about, where there's life including the rough edges. The American city would have a shiny glass and steel downtown and suburbs. A sweeping generalisation of course, but zoning definitely affects how much one comes into contact with all sorts of people in the street, and how you use those streets. I think there's just about enough commonality across continents to use "European city" and "American city" as a lazy shorthand.

In my city, public transportation is considered sketchy because "only poor people use buses". Obviously a gross generalization, with many exceptions in the US, but if you associate lower income and rents with higher crime,

Income inequality, or straight up poverty, are definitely the biggest contributing factors to high crime anywhere you go I think

I find it quite interesting living in a fairly gentrified inner London borough how mixed it is in terms of incomes. I have a TV producer, a finance dude and a writer I regularly read in my favourite national newspaper as my neighbours. Just across the way is the council estate and high flats where I'm sure there's people in poverty, possibly getting by day to day with addiction or illness. It's interesting to me the lack of segregation here in London on income levels through the gentrification process. As someone who's getting by fine but isn't wealthy, it's a sort of parallel, but sometimes intertwined life here in Hackney with the people who are really much poorer than me.

GerryM, I remember traveling to Chicago for business in the'80s, staying in business class hotels on the "million-dollar mile". They had maps in the rooms with areas marked in red near the tourist zone, warning guests not to go past certain streets. Gentrification has taken hold in many cities here, but our criminals and beggars tend to drift to the areas where the pickings are better. My city started free bus service during COVID, and one of the byproducts was bus loads of homeless people "going to work" in the suburbs.

I'd guess most American tourists are interested in the food, art & architecture in foreign destinations, and not so much in the gritty side of contemporary life. A subway car of Yankees fans headed to the Bronx is as rough as I need to get.

I'd guess most American tourists are interested in the food, art & architecture in foreign destinations, and not so much in the gritty side of contemporary life.

I think it was John who pointed out recently how many of The New York Times' top 25 restaurants in London were out here east.

Sometimes the art, food and architecture can be something to enjoy when they're part of the fabric of gritty contemporary life. One of my favourite things about New York was after midnight $1 slices of pizza to go from a a hole in the wall. I didn't see The Statue of Liberty. I don't claim to be the average American or British tourist, but I'm just thinking about taking pleasure in using cities as cities, and enjoying the "cityness" of a city. Sometimes the good experiences are away from the heart of the city, where it might be a bit rougher. It's not every visitor to London wants to go to Brixton, Hackney or Peckham for dinner, for sure. Every city has its own version of those neighbourhoods. Sometimes it might be worth giving it a shot, sometimes not.

I'm just putting forward some ideas on how to think about cities. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just ruminating based on my experiences. I'm not sure if that idea of visiting a city to enjoy contemporary life there, as opposed to making sure you see the cathedral, is way too out there for most people.

Speaking from a British point of view I honestly don’t think we have ‘no go’ areas in the same way that there appears to be in the USA. On a number of trips I have made to the US I have been told ‘ don’t go on these streets, it not safe’ etc and I can’t imagine ever hearing that over here. Obviously different areas have different crime rates and usual common sense should be applied eg don’t go waving valuables about, but I can’t think of anywhere where just being there puts you at risk. Often (usually?) when areas have a problem with violence it is within the local gangs, unfortunately impacting on the local community but not enough to put someone at risk who is just moving through.

From what I can tell the assumption is that if an area is poor and/or scruffy it must be dangerous?

One of the posters above mentioned being told not to go to some areas of London and as someone who lived in London for nearly 30years I am genuinely intrigued to know which areas they are!

On a number of trips I have made to the US I have been told ‘ don’t go
on these streets, it not safe’ etc and I can’t imagine ever hearing
that over here.

I've heard the same thing about some areas of Paris, but I dont know if its any more true than it is about the US cities where you were warned.

So many ways to look at this. In my lifetime, many more have been killed in Europe by gun violence than in the US, and I predict that when my son is my age, he will be able to make the same statement.

Then a city or a neighborhood safe for Bob, might not be as safe for Levi or Mustafa, does that matter in the conversation?

As I said, I am writing from a British point of view, I have very little knowledge of the situation in Paris.

I’d be very interested to see the stats that more people have been killed by gun violence in Europe than the USA. As you said lots of ways to look at a situation, not all of them necessarily correct.

From what I can tell the assumption is that if an area is poor and/or scruffy it must be dangerous?

Add race and I think this is accurate, kind of shameful really, but the way it has seemingly always been. Crime stats for the US have forever shown the highest crime rates are in the rural South, yet people fear the urban North (?).

Good question, Emma. The Yugoslav wars, 150000 at a minimum, and the Ukraine war something in the neighborhood of 400000. Of course you have to include drones and missiles in the gun count. Otherwise maybe only half the number ... but dead is dead. If I were 17 years older, the count would be in the millions.

But granted my statement might be more impression than fact because I dont have all the numbers. But since I am still alive, tge way things are going, it may be absolutely true before I die. Hope not.

I know, not fair to count wars cause there are none in North America since 1865. We should only count criminals killing each other (half of the US gun violence). In my first post I asked, where safer to put down roots for generations? America or Europe? Its a "depender".

If you are going to bring war statistics into the discussion I think we can agree no go areas and perceptions of sketchiness will increase but let’s be honest to include war in this discussion is ridiculous, and not particularly helpful.

Then a city or a neighborhood safe for Bob, might not be as safe for Levi or Mustafa, does that matter in the conversation?

I lived in Chicago for 3 decades. In the city and in the 'burbs. There were and are, as I am told, areas I can assure you where criminals are equal opportunistic. They will assault, rob or terrorize anyone of any race, creed, color, gender, rich, poor, pretty or ugly. The answer is Bob is no safer than anyone else, unless Bob is part of the criminal element and even then, Bob might not be safe if he messes with another Bob.

none in North America since 1865

very imaginative way of counting city gun violence....

so are you counting all the US servicemen from WWI, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf Wars?

Nigel. Im not that old. Thank g-d. Wow! Did i look that old in the video conference? Now you made me feel bad.

I remember when Americans were told Brixton and parts of south London were to be avoided. I can accept that may not be true now, but bad reputations linger. Maybe I read too many Brit detective novels, but the impression is most estates (what we used to call the projects) are to be avoided. Parts of Stockholm and other Scandinavian cities were also being touted as "no-go" zones relatively recently. I accept that was just BS.

I think Allan and jo jo rabbit make good points about fitness and how that can affect one's confidence. Even at 51, I'm not as fit as I used to be. I've never had to fight or run away from a stranger, that I can remember anyway, so I'm not sure how important it is based on my experience so far.

From what I can tell the assumption is that if an area is poor and/or scruffy it must be dangerous?

Add race and I think this is accurate, kind of shameful really, but the way it has seemingly always been. Crime stats for the US have forever shown the highest crime rates are in the rural South, yet people fear the urban North (?).

There is a correlation between crime and poverty, surely. I think one is more likely to get into trouble with the law if circumstances are strained in other parts of life, and that often revolves around having enough money to get by. It doesn't mean poor people are bad or make a rougher part of town instantly off limits.

Then a city or a neighborhood safe for Bob, might not be as safe for Levi or Mustafa, does that matter in the conversation?

Yes, it may well do. I feel quite fortunate here in Hackney that there's none of that to speak of. Every now and and again you'll hear the right wing media chirp about "no-go areas" based on some race-based trope and it's always to be taken with a pinch of salt. Whitechapel and Tower Hamlets in London is a favourite, because it's predominantly Bangladeshi. In some areas in London some ethnicities dominate in terms of numbers, but there's no ghettos. There isn't anywhere you can't go in London based on colour or religion. It's hard to say with such certainty about other cities for me.

On the flip side of it, what's your feelings on race relations in eastern Europe? Is a black English guy or someone with obvious British-Indian heritage going to get a hard time in some of the sketchier parts of town in cities you know? I see how black footballers are still treated in eastern Europe and wonder how that would translate to the street?

There's sometimes violence within communities. A young girl sadly lost her life near here last year from crossfire in a shooting involving Turkish gangs. Another man of Turkish origin was shot and killed earlier this year.

On the subject of race, I usually try to work on the premise of "d*ckheads come in all colours and creeds". A wide variety of races and colours have me muttering under my breath daily at their antisocial cycling.

Still, as someone who lives in a very multicultural neighbourhood (89 languages spoken) where it works just fine, it grates a bit when the media and armchair pundits under Youtube videos who have barely been here try to run London down as some crime-infested hellhole. It's really not. The crime stats are out there, but it seems like hard work to pore over them right now. It's better than it was in most metrics, worse in some, if my memory serves. I visited my local council office a little while ago and I noted how multicultural their big open plan office was. It's was good to see all these people working together as public servants of the borough. It looked very representative. I think there's a good deal of unity in schools around here too, which gives hope for the future. Kids of all ethnicities and backgrounds get educated together which makes for good cohesion.

The borough with the highest numbers on the crime stats is Westminster. The petty crime against visitors really make it stand out in London, which is not good. I think the cops might have woken up to the phone snatching thing a little bit. I fear the enforcement in Westminster and The City will drive it out into other boroughs though.

On the flip side of it, what's your feelings on race relations in
eastern Europe? Is a black English guy or someone with obvious
British-Indian heritage going to get a hard time in some of the
sketchier parts of town in cities you know? I see how black
footballers are still treated in eastern Europe and wonder how that
would translate to the street?

GerryM you are a good man, but now you equate Kyiv, Tirana and Budapest and Sarajevo.

I see many back expats and tourists in Budapest, havent heard of any problems. I have seen a few black foreign legion fighters in Kyiv and I suspect they are loved. Budapest has a large Asian expat population and they dont come to be abused. I spent a bit of time with an Indian gentleman and his family in Budapest last year and got no indication of issurs in Budapest beyond finding the right cigar. Jews have a better life in Budapest than in Paris, according to one survey. Tirana? Dont know, I didn't spend enough time there.

Emma, I agree with you if the topic is "Safe for the Moment." A few evenings a week, i get a WhatsApp message or video call from loved ones in a bunker in Ukraine I will remind them of how lucky they are not to be in Boston; cause Boston is dangerous. Is Poland safe? Is a city safe if you know you will get enough notice to run before the bombs fall? Safe for a tourist i guess, yes. Was that the question? Sorry, I treated it more broadly.

GerryM you are a good man, but now you equate Kyiv, Tirana and Budapest and Sarajevo.

Haha I wasn't equating anything with anywhere! I was asking what you thought because you have been to quite a few cities in the region. Good to hear your positive anecdotes.

You said "Eastern Europe"

Gerry, to be fair. This is a travel forum. I would suspect the tourist will have time to run so war really doesnt apply to tourism safety but neither do a lot of the other statistics. Like 50% of the killings are among gang members. Are tourists gang members? 50% know the person that they killed. You know any American killers? Its an interesting topic till people get protective. But its interesting in how complex it is. Me, I am an optimist and I am law abiding to a fault and I am cautious but not paranoid. With all of that going form me there are few places that are "dangerous". I just got back from DC, I sort of enjoyed seeng the National Guard on the streets, remineded me of Rome and Paris.

GerryM, its a trap we all fall into ... overly gerneralizing. "In Europe they ..........." finish that with anything you want and it will still be wrong. There is nothing mono-culture about Europe. "In Eastern Europe ..... " is almost as bad.

Maybe I read too many Brit detective novels, but the impression is most estates (what we used to call the projects) are to be avoided.

If travel decisions are being made based on detective stories I am surprised how many people want to visit country houses in the English countryside, what with Agatha Christie and Midsummer Murders!

A reason to 'avoid' estates is probably that most aren't very interesting being full of people just quietly living there lives.

I remember when Americans were told Brixton and parts of south London were to be avoided. I can accept that may not be true now, but bad reputations linger.

Some people from London will still say that. It's easy to get freaked out by somewhere like Brixton if it's not what you're used to. As soon as you step through the gateline leaving the station it's full on. Brixton is one place you will possibly see people who are high or looking for money because they're sleeping rough with an addiction. In terms of experience, Brixton is still well worth the visit for the curious. Gentrification has smartened a lot of it up and made it 10x safer than it was 20 years ago. There's still a lot of community spirit, and some of the rough edges are still there, albeit smoothed out a little.

South London has a lot to offer the curious too. I think more of south east when I think of south London. Peckham is another place that might look scary as it's thick with graffiti, but as a destination it's quite rewarding if you know what to look for. A Tripadvisor search in Peckham is going to bring up some of London's finest international specialty places for the foodie. It's kind of the the thing I'm talking about, not being afraid to venture out to places in search of experiences.

I think for a lot of London locals that are into food and entertainment, central London and the west end are pretty dead. It's places like Hackney, Bethnal Green, Brixton and Peckham that have been very sketchy in the past that are setting the pace these days.

Good topic. I am used to seeing urban blight, dumps if you want call it that, seedy, scuzzy areas and blocks.

That doesn't affect me as to my personal safety, I'm used to LA and Oakland, alone and but only day time. These 3 post-pandemic trips I 've taken more chances going out to towns and areas in Berlin, especially in eastern Berlin (that's where the action is) and Frankfurt, Vienna, Paris with a lot less concern, always taking public transport and walking .

Yes, I'm alert and so on , as long it is day time, I am not deterred by the neighborhood. Why? Some of it I don't care as much as I did in the past.

The only area where the urban blight comes closest to SF worst district , the Tenderloin, is the immediate area around Frankfurt Hbf, but still scuzzy as it it, it's preferable to the Tenderloin.

I am in my mid-70s, 6 feet and 185 lbs, no athletic type, no bike rider, runner, hiker, etc.

I see French women, seniors, and solo at night waiting at Metro stations and on the Metro train. If they can do that with calmness, I had better do likewise too, before one might ask, "What are you afraid of? "

A reason to 'avoid' estates is probably that most aren't very interesting being full of people just quietly living there lives.

Yeah, there's no good reason for the visitor to want to be on the estates in London, except as a thoroughly and carefully vetted option for a cheap AirBnB on one of the best for the savvy.

Most estates are much better than they were. I stayed on the Pembury Estate in Hackney for a year when I first moved down here from Scotland and it was fine. It varies, but some are pretty nice. There's some generously proportioned apartments in well built blocks on some of the estates constructed in the inter-war years. If you look on Youtube for Pembury Estate you'll probably see it. I can remember at least two rap video shoots on the estate with lights and fancy cars in the year I was there. That sort of place. There's definitely good and bad council estates in London though.

An observation I'd make, as someone who grew up in Scotland and lives in London. Alcohol is definitely much more of a threat to your safety in Scottish cities than it is in London. In terms of youth street drinking, there's absolutely not culture of that at all really in London, compared to levels in Scotland. Drinking culture makes Scottish "schemes" (council estates) much more dangerous than London. I'm making an unfair generalisation, but even in Glasgow city centre, getting into an altercation with someone is a bit more likely because they've had a drink. At street level, booze can make Glasgow seem a bit sketchier than London to me.

This is an interesting thread. I feel the need to jump in and add some context on council estates. Particularly in London (tho I am sure all around the country), many of these flats are now in the hands of private landlords who charge a lot for what as mentioned above are generously proportioned and well located properties. This means there are many middle class people who now live on these estates, either renting from a private landlord or having purchased it themselves, which changes the character somewhat. Although these properties were initially intended for lower-income families, in the 80s a certain PM introduced right-to-buy to create more homeowners and as a result, there are far fewer properties available for council tenants. I will say no more lest this turn into a political rant.

Yes, it is an interesting thread. I’ll also jump in to comment. First Europe. When we visited Prague in 2002 we stayed at a Hilton cause of the discounts. (Husband an employee). We had our teenage daughters with us. I did not feel 100% safe in the area of the hotel and made sure we were back before dark. Fast forward to 2014, our second visit and I told my husband discount or not I was not staying in that area again. Was I wrong, I don’t know but the feelings from my first visit stayed with me. Of course, the Prague we saw on our second visit was not the same city. Tourism had caught up.
Not for one minute did we not feel safe. Neighborhoods change, hopefully for the better.

Now, take Manhattan. Quite a lot of changes. Years ago we would avoid certain areas, but now….
Hell’s Kitchen, would I visit, Hell yes.
Spanish Harlem, Que? ciertamente.
Central Park, just another walk in a crowded park.
Harlem, sure, it’s been gentrified
The Bronx, not yet, give it a few years (not Yankee fans)

If you google bad areas in NYC the neighborhoods what comes up are in the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens.
Which brings me to Brooklyn, Bay Ridge to be specific. In the 1980’s when all of NYC was on a downward trajectory, most of my friends and family moved out, specifically to Staten Island, Long Island, and New Jersey. We stayed, purchased a house, went to work in Manhattan, had kids, and aged. People kept telling us we were crazy, Bay Ridge was becoming a cesspool. We didn’t budge. Fast forward to today, we are very happy in our little corner of Brooklyn. We have a fantastic life here, very busy and fulfilling. Did the neighborhood change, yeah. Are our neighbors now Asian and Arabic and Spanish, yes. Do we get along, yes. Are there still Italians, Greeks, and Irish around, yes. Do we go out at night walking, yes. Is it safe, 100%.

When visiting a new city, do your research and find your comfort level. And as others have said, be aware of your surroundings. That is the best advice I can agree with.

I do agree that you should stay aware when visiting an area you are new to on your travels but it isn't always completely helpful.
Being 'aware' you are judging an area based on your preconceived ideas of what is safe not necessarily the reality.

Making a sweeping generalisation based on comments I have seen on this forum some (many?) visitors from the USA see a scruffy area with graffiti and automatically presume it isn't safe. Also thinking of a David Sedaris piece I heard on the radio where he could hear American tourists identifying him as a pickpocket on the metro, because they had been told they were everywhere. They were being aware, but it wasn't particularly conducive to a relaxed trip! Or maybe they were secretly happy they had 'seen' a pickpocket so they could go home with a war story from Paris or even post about it on a travel forum?! :-)

Notting Hill is an area where a tourist might want to visit where you will see a real mix of property types and residents. A particular complaint about the film Notting Hill is that it really doesn't show the area as it actually is. I don't think there is a single black face in that film which doesn't represent the wider area at all.

The Grenfell Tower is in that area and it is a good example of an attempt to gentrify public housing to make it look more attractive ( for wealthier residents and visitors in the area to look at?). Unfortunately that gentrification involved a cladding process that was basically criminal and should never have gone near a property. Yet another British public enquiry that doesn't seem to be getting anywhere.
The residents of that tower are a good representation of the people living in council estates, as I said, just quietly going about their lives, until they weren't.

Edit. I forgot to say, for those of you brave enough to visit south London remember to look out for these https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/london-s-stretcher-railings

I don’t think it has anything to do with big cities. There are just neighborhoods I wouldn’t want to walk through after dark in medium and small cities, too. Our biggest problems right now are happening in the medium-size and small cities where gangs are killing each other over territory, just like LA in the 1970s. Or, going through a neighborhood where women are treated differently isn’t my first choice either in any size city.
I’d be careful in the countryside, too. Especially crossing paths on a trail or canal footpath with men who’ve been out drinking, and certainly during hunting season.

eastern Berlin (that's where the action is)

I've only been to Berlin once, an overnight about 25 years ago. I didn't actually have anywhere to stay. Just Love Parade and then Tresor. The people I know who live in Berlin all live in Kreuzberg. It seems like a creative area in general. Many people from all over, including more than a handful of Americans, have gravitated to living there if they're involved in electronic music. It's probably where I'd stay if I ever get round to visiting properly.

The only area where the urban blight comes closest to SF worst district , the Tenderloin, is the immediate area around Frankfurt Hbf, but still scuzzy as it it, it's preferable to the Tenderloin.

It's my of-repeated mantra; Don't stay next to the railway station in a big European city! The main stations attract people who haven't got anywhere better to be because of their circumstances and the block or two surrounding will usually be pretty grimy. London isn't so bad these days, but Kings Cross used to be a prime example. Fine now.

A good friend of mine from Scotland lived in the Tenderloin for a while, maybe late 90's. I think it was pretty much as you'd imagine. Crazy roommate, surrounded by drugs, part time cash in hand work doing whatever. He did get himself a nice bike (a Gary Fisher, made in California) and rode all over the Bay Area. Out in Marin is the birthplace of mountain biking.

Now, take Manhattan. Quite a lot of changes. Years ago we would avoid certain areas, but now….
Hell’s Kitchen, would I visit, Hell yes

First thing my mate and I did was head to Hell's Kitchen when I landed and unpacked in New York. CBGB's was already closed by that time I think though.

Which brings me to Brooklyn, Bay Ridge

I really liked Brooklyn when I visited New York. I went out to Brooklyn three times in ten days while I was there. I liked Williamsburg. Greenpoint was still a bit grimy, but I enjoyed the show I saw there. My friends and I spent some time wandering around the semi-derelict industrial area down by the river photographing graffiti one afternoon before an evening show. I think if I were to visit New York again I would stay in Brooklyn. I could quite happily live there probably.

I stayed in midtown Manhattan in 2007, 44th if I remember correctly. A friend of mine was touring with a theatre show and the company had put him up in a serviced apartment while they were off-Broadway. I went with another Scottish friend and camped on the floor. That part of midtown was a wee bit rough, there was a homeless shelter next door. No trouble though. I gave my Lidl sleeping bag to a homeless dude when I was leaving. The $1 pizza slice and $1 coffee on the street was definitely a highlight, as I mentioned earlier. I think you'd probably pay a dollar fifty these days though.

Yes, the names of neighbourhoods and boroughs in New York have almost a mystical resonance for me, growing up listening to hip hop music from very young. You hear shout outs to all sorts of obscure places if you're a long term rap music listener.

I don’t think it has anything to do with big cities. There are just neighborhoods I wouldn’t want to walk through after dark in medium and small cities, too. Our biggest problems right now are happening in the medium-size and small cities where gangs are killing each other over territory, just like LA in the 1970s.

I am glad you mentioned this, I watch lots of TV news from France via TV5Monde, and the violent crime in smaller French towns and villages, particularly in southern France, is scary. We spend most of our time in Paris when we visit France, and we feel very safe there. Off the top of my head I can't recall specific examples, but gang crime is bad in many small towns that are on the tourist trail.

Among larger cities, Marseille is "in the news" a lot, too, it is a major hub of drug related crime. Never been there, and I am not very interested in sorting out what is going on there. But the problem with violent drug crime is all over France...https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2025/08/04/no-part-of-france-is-free-of-drugs-anti-narcotic-agency-warns

Hey Jerry,
A regular slice in Brooklyn is now either $3.50 or $4.00. If you go for a square or white slice it is more.
Sorry, I don’t drink coffee.
My son-in-law is a fireman in Bushwick, quite a challenging area, not one I would ever visit.

First thing my mate and I did was head to Hell's Kitchen when I landed and unpacked in New York. CBGB's was already closed by that time I think though.

GerryM, for business reasons I was in NYC often in the late 70s and early 80s, and I hung out at CBGB & OMFUG, also got to Max's Kansas City before it closed, along with other such haunts and discos in NYC. Got to see bands ranging from Richard Hell and the Voidoids to Blondie to The Police. I didn't give the condition of the neighborhoods a second thought back then, but NYC was a pretty scary place overall back then, you really had to have your wits about you to stay safe even in areas of Manhattan people don't have any such concerns about today. I also ventured into Harlem hunting for soul food before it earned its more recent cachet.

gang crime is bad in many small towns that are on the tourist trail.

I try not to pay too much attention to gang crime statistics. It rarely involves "civilians". There was a real epidemic of gang crime across certain boroughs in London maybe 20 years ago, what was known as the "postcode wars", but things have settled down a bit. I know there's elements of young folk who live that life around, but it doesn't affect me. It's the young folk that are more of a danger to other young folk that have got involved in such lifestyles for whatever reason. I'm not really threatened by that as a middle aged white guy.

As far as violence in small towns in the UK goes, I might be slightly nervous in some places a visitor might end up. In places like the Medway towns, or in more rural places where people are coming into town to drink, I'd be slightly wary of some pubs in the evening. I don't know, have any visitors to the UK have seen any mishaps or dodgy situations in dodgy British town centres or pubs?

Some of the outer boroughs of London have gone right downhill through underinvestment in recent decades. Croydon is one place I've visited only briefly that's really rough and poverty stricken now. It starts to get steadily more depressing as you get out through Romford, Barking and into the Essex towns. Lots of it is really a bit miserable and could easily be perceived as sketchy in the wrong light.

A regular slice in Brooklyn is now either $3.50 or $4.00.

I'm wondering now if my $1 pizza slice is a false memory. Was it really so much cheaper in 2007 or am I misremembering it?

I was in NYC often in the late 70s and early 80s, and I hung out at CBGB & OMFUG, also got to Max's Kansas City before it closed, along with other such haunts and discos in NYC. Got to see bands ranging from Richard Hell and the Voidoids to Blondie to The Police

I am fascinated by that period of late 70's to early eighties New York. I am very envious.

It was a real explosion of creativity out of the dirt, grime and murder in New York at that time. So much new music and art. Haring, Basquiat, Talking Heads. Fab Five Freddie bringing downtown together with hip hop in the eighties and it taking off. I am something of a disciple of Larry Levan, Paradise Garage and David Mancuso's Loft.

I read Tama Janowitz's Slaves of New York in my teens and had The Andy Warhol Diaries ordered in specially at the library. Those cover that period when the scene in Manhattan was arguably at its peak.

I always like to acknowledge hip hop culture, which was born on the streets of New York, as a global influence, possibly America's biggest cultural export of he late 20th century. It's shaped style, culture, language, and of course music all over the world.

I am fascinated by that period of late 70's to early eighties New York. I am very envious.

I am envious of people older than me who firsthand experienced the San Francisco and Laurel Canyon scenes in the late 60s and early 70s. That era has fascinated me my entire life.

When I was 11, my older brother let me tag along with his buddies to see Jimi Hendrix in my Deep South US hometown, something all my friends envied at the time and still do to this day. What I would have given to see Janis Joplin, though...

GerryM, you and I are maybe more alike than either or us realized, we are just from different eras. In 20 years from now, when you are my age, you may find yourself becoming a little more cautious, a little less adventuresome. Then again, maybe not. Either way, good luck.

I'm wondering now if my $1 pizza slice is a false memory. Was it really so much cheaper in 2007 or am I misremembering it?

I was in NYC around Xmas time in 2007 and remember eating a cheap slice of pizza. Was it ∼$1? Maybe. It was huge and foldable and the grease soaked through the flimsy paper plate and square inch of napkin and someone knocked into me and I dropped it, that much I remember!

In the late 1960s and early '70s I was in SF in college, 6 years straight, undergrad and grad school, no semester off as a "break" which I never considered anyway.

Yes, a lot was happening, numerous demonstrations and violence , the age of Nixon and Vietnam, and Haight Ashbury , its decline, and all that, life was different, obviously.

I went to Europe the first time then in 1971 solo for 12 weeks on a charter flight doing a trip that included Berlin, Vienna, London, Hamburg, Munich, Amsterdam,

The rent was far cheaper then as was the cost of college

Probably not as good as $1 pizza slices but the "Recession Special" at Gray's Papaya in Manhattan was a pretty good deal in 2008: 2 dogs and a tropical beverage (pina colada for me) for $3.50.

In the 1980’s when all of NYC was on a downward trajectory, most of my friends and family moved out, specifically to Staten Island, Long Island, and New Jersey. We stayed, purchased a house, went to work in Manhattan, had kids, and aged.

It's really interesting you say that Barbara. I was reading an article recently about exactly the same trend here in Hackney. There's more 50 or 60+ people around than ever before. Since it's got nicer around here there's more Gen X and boomers sticking around, rather than moving out of London. Many of the hipsters who came in the first wave of gentrification 25 or 30 years ago are still around. Some people in my street must have a million plus in renovations and extensions alone in these 19th century houses. It's a fair mix of folk. British people, Europeans, my landlord came here from India and has owned the house across the street since '73 or '74. There's at least one other family with Indian heritage that has been here since the 70's. Some are huge big houses, some divided into apartments. I think I'd find a lot of similarities in Brooklyn.

Google AI tells me Bushwick is up and coming and is really quite nice btw. Give it a go! :)

In 20 years from now, when you are my age, you may find yourself becoming a little more cautious, a little less adventuresome. Then again, maybe not.

The way my health is going that might be the thing that holds me back a bit. My fitness went downhill at covid time and I've never really got back to normal. Like I said, it's never been something I've thought about in terms of safety. In my experience if you're in a situation in public where you need to fight or run away, things have already gone pretty wrong and I'm not confident either of those things would necessarily solve your problems. Never happened to me, touch wood. I don't think I'm even fit enough for walking to get the best out of Amsterdam or Barcelona these days the way I used to. When I was going to Barcelona I'd be around town or at a festival all day and then dancing all night. That's not happening these days!

I think I'm fairly fortunate in some ways. I've been single for a decade, never married, no kids. I've missed out on the companionship of marriage and raising kids (so far) but I don't have a lot of responsibilities to anyone. I don't necessarily seek out risk, but finding experiences in cities is something I'd like to do in the future. I feel fortunate to have the freedom to do that without bothering anyone else.

If you are 51 now, I would submit to you that in , say 15 to 20 years, you become less cautious or maintain the same level of caution you are in command of now at 51.

I reject this notion of being more cautious as you age. You just know better, learn how to pace yourself, the issue of caution is another matter.

I travel in roughly the same manner as I did in the past but then even as a budget traveler I was too spoiled, less daring, etc....not anymore as regards to travel style and being adventurous.

My aim was to try to give some tips for sketchy areas in big cities.

My biggest tip would be to simply acknowledge that the unknown is almost always "scarier" than the known. To reduce the sketchiness of a place, spend time there. All of a sudden, the "sketchy" areas are not so sketchy, and the real ones to avoid are more understood.

Likewise, for travel to most European places, you can essentially guarantee, if you are an American, you're safer from violent crime than you are at home. Bigger things to worry about would be health issues and probably driving risks.

I'd generally simply suggest self & situational awareness and to keep your wits about you, but as someone who has worked in a "tourist" city for many years, I realize very few travelers act that way. I can't count the times travelers are standing on the left side of an escalator. Or just come to a complete stop in the middle of a sidewalk. Or are distracted herding their kids/family around a site. Travel to new places is sometimes sensory overload, and for some folks, simply overwhelming.

I reject this notion of being more cautious as you age. You just know better, learn how to pace yourself, the issue of caution is another matter.

I feel pretty much the same. I feel now I'm older, I can be even more ready to answer people back. I was thinking about it, and I can think of a couple of instances in the last few years in London where I've told strangers to "f- off" if I didn't like the way they approached me. It's being a grumpy old guy with a smart mouth that would get me into trouble and I know better.

I was also thinking about what I usually say if people ask me for money. It's probably not a firm "no" as I stated in an earlier post. My standard, canned response in London is "No, sorry mate".

I've only been robbed once while abroad. I had arranged to meet friends coming in from elsewhere in Dam Square, Amsterdam. I sat around at the monument there and was joined by a dude who wanted to chat. If I remember correctly he rolled a joint and chatted for a bit. As I mentioned earlier, part of his story was that he just got out of jail. It was a long time ago, I must have seen a knife, but I can't remember, but he asked me to walk with him to what must have been around Rokin or thereabouts and I had to hand him the cash I had in my wallet. Can't remember how much, probably Guilders at that time.

It's funny I can date it almost exactly, as I remember Michael Jackson was in town and the square was filled with people waiting to see him. I thought I remembered him being there to visit Madame Tussauds, but Google tells me no. He played Rotterdam June 30th and July 1st 1992, making me 18 at the time. I remember coming across another crowd of people waiting to see him later, and making the joke that we were being stalked by Michael Jackson.

One develops a travel style with which one is at ease. Age has a role in this. I am more adventuresome, less cautious now than 25 years ago. You learn to be alert, not clueless, you listen and watch and not be oblivious.

I stay in hotels near to the train station, Kings Cross in London, Munich Hbf, Paris Gare du Nord and Est, Vienna Westbahnhof if not U-Bahn station, Hietzing , Berlin Hbf,. or Ostbahnhof, even Frankfurt Hbf if need be, in spite of its urban blight and down right squalor. Hamburg Hbf, and Metz Ville, of course.

What's there to be afraid of? Am I going to be jacked in the streets American style?

Yes, eastern Berlin...check out explore Warschauer Strasse and Ostkreuz.

This is a peculiar thread. Posters are discussing crime as though Europe 2025 has a problem, even in isolated localities, that approaches big US cities in the 1970s. It does not. Nothing about current "gang crime" in France or elsewhere in Europe remotely resembles 1970 Los Angeles or Chicago. (Frankly, the US in 2025 is much safer than it was in the late 20th century, also, notwithstanding lies made by certain US politicians and pundits.)

The fact is that Europe writ large is far safer for American tourists than their home communities. I'm concerned that people reading these discussions will get an entirely incorrect impression about personal safety when they travel to Europe.

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/international-crime-rates#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20homicide%20rate%20was,higher%20than%20those%20in%20Europe.

jphbucks the title asks for personal experiences. If thats all that was posted it would make sense. But when discussing "safety" in a larger context someone first needs to define the word safety. Until then this is just interesting verbal banter.

If you take a big picture view then you might want to consider where your father, you, your children and your grandchildren could have the best and longest lives with little chance of the blood line ending, I would say the US. On the other hand, if it’s about me in the last few years of my life, Budapest beats my hometown in Texas on most accounts by a fair degree. If it involves medical care as a function of safety, the US is probably safer for me. If it’s about the odds of being murdered, well in the US 0.006% will be murdered. In Europe it’s 0.002%. Personal lifestyle choices cut those numbers substantially. So, I won’t leave the US over the murder rate. It’s not consequential to my position in life and my lifestyle.

Yes, eastern Berlin...check out explore Warschauer Strasse and Ostkreuz.

If we're talking age and adventurousness, I think east Berlin is somewhere where someone in their 50's (me) could get away with being out all night without sticking out like a sore thumb. I already have a black sweater, black jeans and funky specs so I'd fit right in. I've never been to Berghain, but I don't know if I have the fortitude at my age to see it through to the morning. I'd like to think so.

I am too tired (usually) to be out late at night , no reason to, and I don't wear black, too inconspicuous , too demure. I've only checked out explored Ostkreuz and Warschauer Strasse daytime since they are S-Bahn hubs in eastern Berlin.

I've never been to Berghain, but I don't know if I have the fortitude at my age to see it through to the morning. I'd like to think so.

Gerry, I doubt the likes of you or I would ever make it past the bouncers at Berghain. I don't think we're what they want to see in their club 😂

Gerry, I doubt the likes of you or I would ever make it past the bouncers at Berghain. I don't think we're what they want to see in their club 😂

Haha speak for yourself! Do you mean oldies? Not gay enough? :) Berghain is fairly inclusive in those respects as far as I know. You or I would probably have more chance than a teenager. It's generally more about attitude than anything else somewhere like that. I never take a knockback personally, but I've been getting in places I shouldn't by rights since I was 16 :)

Dressed in black, Eric Morecambe specs, shaved head, and, it's a few years since I had an earring in, but I'm sure I could force a couple of big stainless steel hoops through for the occasion. Sorted.