Settling The Passport Debate?

Don't you mean STARTING the Passport Debate?

Maybe. ;) I'm not here to argue, just sharing an experience that will hopefully make some people relax knowing they're not doing something as stupid as I did.

Sarah,

I suspect that it was just "the luck of the draw" that you weren't checked for Passports on this one trip. If you were to do this on a regular basis, I think it's likely that you would be checked at some point and could have a rather "unpleasant holiday experience".

Although this is a few years old, this post describes other experience with Passport checks....

http://www.toytowngermany.com/lofi/index.php/t239866.html

This Blog entry is also an interesting read....

http://www.jonworth.eu/schengen-what-can-they-ask-and-what-am-i-obliged-to-tell/

Whether they're supposed to check Passports or not, the statement "because I can" says a lot. I'd rather not antagonize them by quoting a bunch of rules, so prefer to just hand over my Passport. Whenever I've been checked on a train, it's been by uniformed personnel (with guns!), so I know they're legitimate.

Cheers!

Sarah's misadventure hasn't changed my mind. I'll continue to have my passport on my person when I am out and about in Europe.

Always great to hear from you Sarah.

The question still remains if any official ID will do while in the Schengen countries, or if a non-resident must carry a passport. Evidently the airline didn't care what form of ID you showed since airlines are not border patrol or police.

However, we need to remember that police in Europe are allowed to stop people at random and ask for ID, they do so and have done so for as long as I've been going back and forth, which is forty-plus years.

As stated above, the question still remains as to whether you must keep a passport with an entry stamp on one's self. From personal experience, I know that some with dual nationalities carry both their European country's national ID cards and their US passports when in their non-resident countries.

Paragraph 2: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_4361.html

Then again; for instance, "You should carry your passport with you at all times when you are in Hungary. Hungarian law requires all visitors to carry their passports" http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1137.html

I think in your case, your military ID would have at least allowed you to politely argue your way out of a sticky situation, so you sort of had back up. Of course, that doesn't apply to most of us on this website.

I was waiting for the happy ending where you find your passports in a jacket pocket, but I guess that didn't happen.

I'm one of those who leaves the passport in the hotel safe while visiting the sights. I'll start carrying the passport with me at all times when passports are made the size of a credit card.
Those of you who prefer to carry it, can continue to do so. I wonder what you do when you go to the beach. Are you supposed to have you passport with you while you scuba dive?

I have a waterproof pouch for use while scuba diving. Holds cash too. I go to Hungary a lot and I have gotten pretty overly confident there and rarely carry my passport, but I admit it isn't smart nor is it legal and I don't encourage like behavior.

Like Roberto, I always leave my passport in my hotel when I'm traveling which has sometimes resulted in comical situations. A few years back I was walking down Via Del Corso in the evening and got stopped by a couple caribinieri who asked me for my passport. Of course it was in my hotel, well they didn't like that answer so they walked me over to their little mobile police van and I got surrounded by 5 caribinieri, it was crazy. Then a guy in a suit and tie came over to "question" me; I showed him my military ID and explained that I'm assigned to the base up in Vicenza. He pointed to the bulge in my pocket and asked what I was carrying, I pulled out a paper bag, it ripped and about a dozen Popeners fell to the ground. He looked at what they were, then smiled and said "Ah, Il Papa...it's ok, you can go."

I think some of you missed the fact that I wasn't checked for ANY ID, and I NEVER have when going through security or boarding a flight between Schengen countries. Nor have I ever for any flight between Schengen countries, and I've taken at least 18 now. The only time I've been asked for my passport is at the counter when I'm getting boarding passes or checking luggage. If you don't have to do that, you won't be asked, it's that simple. Kind of disconcerting, really - I prefer the American method of checking the ID against the boarding pass for security reasons.

But obviously yes, you're supposed to have it for flying. But for just walking around? You're putting yourself at risk for losing it, if it's anywhere other than a money belt, which is a far bigger hassle in terms of returning than having the policeman or whoever wants to see it accompany you back to your hotel - and this must happen incredibly rarely, probably only if you're suspected of illegal behavior in the first place. I haven't heard of this happening to anyone I know in a fairly large expat circle that travels more frequently than me.

Anyway, just thought you guys would have a bit of a heart attack over my story. Now I've got to go fill out a passport form. Luckily my travel in the next two months is just driving to bordering Schengen countries, which I normally wouldn't bother taking a passport with me in those cases anyway. I still feel like an idiot for taking it to Strasbourg in the first place when I normally would've left them safe and sound at home.

I like the rationale of "it's never happened to me."

It's like this:

I've been to Rome a few times.
I've never been the victim of a pickpocket.
I've never seen a pickpocket.
I don't know anyone who has been a victim of a pickpocket.
Therefore, why bother taking any type of security measures since it's never happened to me so it will never happen to you.

Until the time comes when it does.

By they way, I can't speak for now, but back in the 1970's, a U.S. military ID was all you needed for international travel and it took the place of a passport. (As long as you were assigned to an overseas base or traveling on military business.)

Let's talk about the elephant in the room, one I've often thought about after I've charmingly talked my way out of situations when overseas: when you are light skinned and you come from a powerhouse country, you are more likely to have previously gotten your way in the world, and you are likely to have more self-confidence about trying to talk your way out of a situation. If we had darker skin and/or came from another country, I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

Sarah,

its great you didnt need it, but this is the way i work.

Id rather have it on me and not use it than to not have on me and need it.

i can see that if the PP was the size of my backpack i tote, but it isnt so, its not alot of baggage for me to carry around my neck everyday.

happy trails.

Passports are not required for intra-Schegen travel for EU citizens. Some countries issue ID cards for foreign residents, and this is where things get tricky: these foreign-resident ID cards (which in some countries closely resemble national citizen IDs) are valid as personal identification, not as travel documents outside the country that issue them.

I'm surprised that you could fly without showing anyone any form of ID. That is a little disconcerting.

Legally, the police can require you to produce a passport or visa that shows you are in the country legally. But as Bett's points out, in practice they are looking for certain immigrant types, not generally wayward Americans and Canadians. I've seen several random passport checks on trains, even in the Schengen era. The border agents either ignore me altogether, or once they see my passport is US, they pass on. But for others, they get grilled and sometimes pulled off the train.

So the lesson, and most of us have always said this, is that those that leave their passport in the hotel safe for the day are not going to be hauled off to a Turkish prison...

I always carry mine with me in my money belt. I've never been stopped and asked to show it but better safe than sorry.

Did you find your passports yet? I'm paranoid about losing mine so I keep it in my bank safe-deposit box between trips.

As a naturalized citizen of this fine country, I rather be able to prove my citizenship without hassel! I don't see any reason why I should not continue to carry my passport with me at all times while on holiday.
Now, as an American living in a foreign country things may be a bit different since you are a long term resident (with military ID to boot), and are out and about for "every day" tasks, but for my two-week jaunts across the pond, I will carry the little booklet.

And the passport debate continues...

We've forgotten to ask the most important question.....can you wear shorts when not carrying your passport?

My personal motto for everything in life, including passports...better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it!

I think being hauled to a Carabinieri station for not carrying your passport would be a memorable experience that you'll have a lot of fun recounting in all family gatherings and parties for many years. I wouldn't miss that opportunity.

Where else would you experience the opportunity of seeing a carabiniere, whose knowledge of English is likely zero, trying to type with 2 fingers a 'verbale' (report) about the incident. If I had an American name difficult to spell I would even have more fun doing it.

My motto is that "you are much more likely to lose or have your passport stolen in the streets than to have a policeman asking you to produce one in the street."

Also let's not discount the possibility of having your passport eaten by a goat while hiking in Sardinia or Greece.

You can just carry a photocopy with you. In the unlikely even they ask you for one, the minute they see you are American or Canadian they'll let you go at most with a stern lecture. With all the problems they have with illegal immigrants they are not going to take an American tourist to jail for having left the passport at the hotel.

See Sarah I was right ;-) Ranks up there with the "Do I have to wear clean underwear when going to the Opera?" debate.

See..................

In all the years traveling in Europe since 1971, what I can say about being checked for carrying the passport inside a country, ie, not at a border crossing, is that it has never happened to me, even during the cold war days when I was a solo tourist in East Berlin on a day's visa; neither those commie East German police, the Vopos, nor the commie Czechs in Prague (only one time there in 1973) ever asked.

Legally, it's true that one has to carry the proper ID in Germany and in France, the passport serves that purpose for us tourists. Of course, lots of times in Germany I don't do that, as long as I am not going outside of a city doing a day trip by train or S-Bahn. I leave it at the Pension. If I am ever stopped in the streets or at a train station, something which I have witnessed done by the police or the Grenzschutz on others, I'll just explain that it's at the hotel located at such and such address, simple as that. But I do have my Calif Dr. License on me.

Last June I did a day trip from Frankfurt to Amsterdam, the day when Obama was sweltering in his visit to Berlin. It was a direct connection on the ICE, but there was a passport check by the Dutch police, two of them. They asked everyone in English, certainly I was the first because of my seat's location to the door; before asking in English, he showed me his ID first. I stayed silent during the entire time of the check as he looked at this US Passport. No use being even perfunctorily chummy, but sometimes I am, depending on the crossing. Good thing I had it on me but still my thoughts were: what happened to those non-existent passport checks between Schengen countries?

I am sorry to have to say this to Roberto, but it is quite possible to be American or Canadian and also an illegal immigrant. If you have overstayed your visa, and perhaps are working in a country without the proper permits, then you are liable to be arrested and deported. Having a white skin and speaking a form of English may not make any difference at all. You may also need original documentary proof of your status, and that would include your passport, not a photocopy of one page of it. How many tourists photocopy their entry visa when they arrive in a country?

Like the vast majority of posters here, I have never been asked for a form of identity by police - anywhere, ever. But nor have I ever been pickpocketed, or had things stolen from my hotel room. I did leave a dressing gown in a parador once.

Also to Roberto, even though I am an American citizen, I probably look more like the illegal immigrants that they are trying to take care of than your typical "white" North American, so that would not be an automatic guarantee for me (although I could pass for Italian, that cover would fall apart as soon as they speak to me).

And to be perfectly honest, I don't carry my passport around out of fear that police would stop and ask for it. Who cares really what I carry around in my money belt. It works for me, and based on the non-empirical anecdotal discussion we are having, I have never lost it, so I'm working with a low probability problem here.

I also carry my passport with me all the time in my money belt. I am wearing a money belt anyway, and the passport fits in it without a problem, so it's not like it's a hassle for me to carry it around. I don't access my money belt ever when I am out and about, so the passport is not going to get lost. But if for some reason the thing that never happens would happen, and I would be asked to show it, I could easily access it in the belt. I feel more secure with it than without it, and that's just my personal choice.

Lets see; we have determined that

1. it is the law in many/most countries that a tourist carry their passports at all times.
2. the odds that any government representative will request your passport is rare to never
3. some find that they are more likely to lose their passport if they carry it than it is likely that the cleaning lady in their hotel will borrow it.
4. that German opera houses require clean underwear
5. that tourists are essentially guests in other countries
6. that the US government would feel better if you carried your passport
7. that state department advise is silly,
8. that guests don't have to obey the laws of their hosts that they consider inconvenient or when breaking those laws pose little risk of being caught
9. that you can wear dirty underwear in German opera houses because no one is going to check.
10. that character has noting to do with what you do when no one is looking.
11. What is relevant to our lives helps to define us.

I have one country that I go to frequently and I have become so comfortable there that I rarely carry my passport when moving around. It's wrong, I am being lazy and disrespectful. I recognize that and I would never suggest that anyone copy me. As a matter of fact, on my next trip I am bringing additional underwear (if the trip involves Germany) and I am going to carry my passport where ever I go.

We also learned:

1. That flights between Schengen countries do not require any ID at all. This makes me want to willfully misspell my name and be unconcerned about it. Wheeeee! Look, Ma, no matching names!

2. That Sarah, by titling this as "Settling the Passport Debate?" is just a-playing with us. If we see subsequent threads from her titled "Final Decision on Backpack vs Wheeled" then we know she's a troll. :)

3. That I really don't care what the rest of you do. I only care about my vacation.

Karen: Exactly so! What do I care what anyone else does about their passport? I do what has always worked for me. Sarah can do as she pleases. Her circumstances are so different from mine. Anyway, she might still find the missing document behind a bookcase or some place.

But it was great fun!!

Re the list #7 and #8 are irrelevant. No check for any ID on a domestic flight within Schengen countries, I'll keep that in mind the next time I take such a flight. In the USA the TSA wants to see at least one's Dr. License along with the boarding pass.

That the Dutch checked at the border crossing referred to above, you won't go through any such similar experience going between Poland and Germany at Frankfurt an der Oder when walking across the bridge over the Oder into Poland. No police or border personnel on either side at all to be seen. No border checks whatsoever. Germans and Poles just walk back and forth, shopping etc. just like one walking across the Golden Gate Bridge. I saw this in 2011 and wanted to see where the Oder crossing was as part of the day trip to Frankfurt an der Oder.

Once again: don't mix up identification with proper foreigner attestation documentation.

People traveling on intra-Schengen flights must present valid ID. There is a variety of documents accepted as valid ID for purposes of boarding a plane, and that list doesn't necessarily coincide with the requirements of legal documents to prove lawful foreign presence.

Let's make a parallel to US domestic flights: an illegal immigrant, if able to obtain a photo ID like a state driver's license, will be able to board a US domestic flight, even if such ID is not a valid proof of his/her lawful presence in US, which is not assessed by TSA (usually) when processing domestic passengers.

@Fred: the border crossings between Germany and Netherlands are not permanently manned. This doesn't preclude periodic checkpoints or control on trains.