Selfies - why the acrimony?

Hank,

I can't answer your question with any "I hate selfies wot 'cause" response, but for some reason selfies give me the same visceral reaction I got when I watched someone in d'orsay running from painting to painting taking a cellphone photo of each: what was the point of them being there in the first place? Couldn't they just have gone online and looked up photos of the paintings?

I'll give you that it's irrational, but something just irks me in general about the whole selfie thing.

Don't get me started on selfie-sticks!

-- Mike Beebe

I think it's the quantity of selfies taken per person, which seems to decrease the quality of the experience, both for the selfie- taker and the others in the vicinity. If moderation were practiced, I think there would be less stress.
Safe travels!

I don’t mind people taking selfies. When we used cameras you would gave to ask a Stranger to take a picture if you both wanted to be in it. This just eliminates that need.

I do not object to people taking selfies in principle. In practice however, to many seem to think they have the right to linger and take up valuable time and space for their own self interest. In other words selfie seem to equate with selfishness.

Selfies seem more "look at me!" than just taking a regular photo. They seem more focused on the person or group being there to check off some social media list than taking in what they are doing and where they are. Often in terms of travel the selfies are being taken in a place that seems to call for a more "solemn" regular photo than a selfie--be it a national park or a historic site in another country. Selfies just seem sort of "silly" and not serious enough. A group of people taking a selfie can often have a kind of "party crowd" vibe going on, and yes the posing and faces seem out of place sometimes. I also rarely like how selfies look--there is always the person taking the photo with an outsize head and the friends in the background crowded around. I never like how I look in them when friends say they want a selfie. I wouldn't say I hate people taking selfies but in many situations they do seem frivolous.

I don't hate them, but at times find them annoying, but also find other scenerios annoying for the same reason - taking up more than their share to the point of impeding other's enjoyment or ability to proceed.

If it is one person stretching an arm, 3 or 4 quick clicks, then retracting arm, fine. But a group taking up key vantage space, then having to review the 20 photos times as many people in the group, not leaving the key vantage space - not so fine.
Thank goodness I haven't run into them because I travel off season and often off the main travel routes, but 'influencer', even the word, gets my hackles up. If one decided to camp out with all the equipment and the wardrobe, then I expect I may just have to photobomb the set if they were in the way of anyone else wanting to visit, see and/or photograph a key site.
My blood pressure also rises when large groups of people must travel in a pack which takes up all the railing space, all the walkway space, talking loud, and impeding anyone wanting to move faster than them or get around. Add in something with wheels, and there is no trusting where they will steer. Tours in packs move fast enough that I just wait 5 minutes for them to move on. Sauntering social groups that take up space and block any forward movement outside their pace; I am not patient with.
I am a solo traveler and generally take photos of the scene. But, as an aging grandmother, I am also trying to be aware that family left behind are more sentimental to photos with 'mom' in them rather than just another scene of the Grand Canyon. I unwrapped and even packed a selfie stick (someone elsewhere mentioned otherwise looking like Jay Leno...you get the image), but have never used it yet. Because of the Jay Leno reference, I will ask someone else to take my photo. Despite some height and long arms, an arm selfie is not far enough away to show the flaws ;-)
So for me, it isn't the selfie taking, per se, it is the rude, unaware, not caring about others, impactful behaviour around certain scenerios that get my goat.

The main problem with selfies, from my point of view, is that people taking them tend to block sidewalks, pathways and viewpoints while they take them.

Great question. I bet my ratio is also around 40/1 as well. I started posting daily photos on Facebook for the benefit of my Mom who can't travel anymore. One day she asked if we were really at these places I was taking photos of, because we were never in the photos. Now, each daily post starts with a selfie as proof.😉

I think we all get lumped together because someone has an issue with the latest trends. But just today at the Villa of Oplontis near Pompeii, an amateur photographer of a senior age was annoying others and creating traffic jams as she stopped every few feet to set up new angles to capture the same image. Is this more or less selfish than a quick selfie snap and go? Quite honestly, I think a selfie or even a selfie stick takes less time and space than asking someone to take your photo. In that exercise, the photographer needs to take up additional space by backing up to get the image, thus taking up more time and space.

The main problem with selfies, from my point of view, is that people
taking them tend to block sidewalks, pathways and viewpoints while
they take them.

Don't all photographers take up that space to get their photo?

My experience with “selfies” while traveling is that those engaged in taking selfies are usually quite rude, blocking others’ view of famous landmarks. The worst I ever have experienced was in Shanghai and I took a photo of these “selfie” takers, mobs of them with backs to the river blocking the ability for others to take photos of the skyline. There was no concern for others as they lingered there.

One or two quick shots, I don’t mind. Taking dozens, then standing in the same spot to review and retake some is another issue. I will offer to take a photo for somebody when it’s obvious the background is important but their arm isn’t long enough to get the entire scene. To me it’s similar to a tour guide taking their group and standing directly in front of a spot everybody else wants to see while giving their narration for 10 minutes rather than moving off to the side to be less intrusive. It’s a matter of courtesy and being aware of those around you more than anything else.

What Suki said.

For instance, at Machu Picchu, there's a particular spot that's popular for photos, because it gives the classic view of the citadel. The spot is roughly triangular, with the "point" being the best spot for taking a photo with nobody else in the shot. When we were there, a woman was in that spot, taking photo after photo while a lineup started to form, waiting for that spot. After she'd taken probably 50 photos, did she move out of the way? No, she sat down on the spot and starting looking through the photos!!!!

They aren't always selfies, though. Another time, I forget where, a woman was lifting and dropping the corner of her skirt, over and over, presumably trying to get the perfect shot where it looked like her skirt was floating. She then stood on that spot while she looked on the camera at the photos the man with her had taken, and then, apparently dissatisfied, started doing the skirt flipping again while people politely waited to get a photo without her in it.

Or then there are the groups of people where, instead of taking a group shot or two, take them one-by-one while everyone else waits (e.g. at the Merida sign in Mexico).

The duckface, while stupid-looking, is the least of it. I blame Instagram, where everyone has to share the absolutely perfect selfie, where they look stunning and carefree (or "blessed," because it's often accompanied by the caption "so blessed") or, I guess, they weren't actually on the trip.

My experience with “selfies” while traveling is that those engaged in
taking selfies are usually quite rude, blocking others’ view of famous
landmarks. The worst I ever have experienced was in Shanghai and I
took a photo of these “selfie” takers, mobs of them with backs to the
river blocking the ability for others to take photos of the skyline.
There was no concern for others as they lingered there.

Suki prominent English street photographer Martin Parr, mentioned not long ago in another thread, recently became fascinated with the reported great frequency of selfie taking in India, so he travelled the world to do a book of people taking selfies. Death by Selfie is a pretty interesting assembly of photos from what I've seen - haven't laid hands on the actual book yet.

And he also has another recent book called Martin Parr: Autoportrait 1996-2015 that apparently displays his often campy self-portraits through his life in chronological order, many while travelling.

From what I've seen they both tend more to the amused than annoyed.

What Suki said.

For instance, at Machu Picchu, there's a particular spot that's
popular for photos, because it gives the classic view of the citadel.
The spot is roughly triangular, with the "point" being the best spot
for taking a selfie with nobody else in the shot. When we were there,
a woman was in that spot, taking photo after photo while a lineup
started to form, waiting for that spot. After she'd taken probably 50
photos, did she move out of the way? No, she sat down on the spot and
starting looking through the photos!!!!

They aren't always selfies, though. Another time, I forget where, a
woman was lifting and dropping the corner of her skirt, over and over,
presumably trying to get the perfect shot where it looked like her
skirt was floating. She then stood on that spot while she looked on
the camera at the photos the man with her had taken, and then,
apparently dissatisfied, started doing the skirt flipping again while
people politely waited to get a photo without her in it.

Or then there are the groups of people where, instead of taking a
group shot or two, take them one-by-one while everyone else waits
(e.g. at the Merida sign in Mexico).

The duckface, while stupid-looking, is the least of it. I blame
Instagram, where everyone has to share the absolutely perfect selfie,
where they look stunning and carefree (or "blessed," because it's
often accompanied by the caption "so blessed") or, I guess, they
weren't actually on the trip.

Interesting response here BB. At its base more of a problem with social media headspace causing impolite real world behavior than with the selfies themselfies :)

I am the opposite end of the spectrum, an extremely low number of selfies. Per 100 photos, maybe 5 selfies?

I have nothing against selfies, what other people do has little effect on me, or is of no concern, usually. Exceptions: when in a crowded pedestrian area, people who take "posed" photos or film across the very place where people are walking, and they act exasperated if you pass through their shot. If I am feeling charitable, I might pause, but generally I just keep walking - if somehow I spoiled their shot, it is not my problem. They can retake it, or edit me out of it. I do walk quickly when passing through the photo zone...

Related issue: at the request of strangers in the past, I have taken photos of them using their phone, but I am less inclined to do that anymore. First, I don't like diverting my attention to anything much less something like that, particularly if there is any chance I am simply being set up to get pickpocketed while doing that "favor." I really don't like engaging face to face with complete strangers in busy tourist areas anyway, with others brushing past me. If I am walking through a tight, crowded pedestrian zone in a tourist zone, say in front of some famous site that has people with their cameras out, I am on a mission to get through there without any mishaps, not to get stopped, or have someone approach me to take their picture...I leave that to others, there will be plenty of people less paranoid than I am who will offer assistance.

Yes, Hank. It's more about the impoliteness than it is about the selfies, per se. I'm always the main photographer on our trips, and, as such, I'm rarely in the photos, but I do occasionally take a selfie or ask my husband to snap a photo of me, or we accept the offer of others to take a photo of us (and we reciprocate). But I always try to be quick about it. I wouldn't dream of spending 5-10 minutes making everyone wait while I make sure I get the "perfect" shot.

Well i have watched the "selfie" crowd basically try to SHOVE people out of their way so they can get the perfect spot. After all you should not be allowed to enjoy the art if you will be in their way, their selfie is the MOST important thing going on LOL!

Or they get to the front of the line to see something and then proceed to spend several minutes taking the "perfect shot' without ever seeing what they stood in line for (Go to Mona Lisa at the Louvre for a prime example... after all you should stand in line for an extra 5 minutes so "ms influencer' can get her shot and NEVER actually turn and look at the art LOL!

And if you have been hit with the selfie stick you know why I hate them. No, you aren't sorry you banged me in the head with your stick and don't lie. If you were a responsible person you wouldn't be using that thing in a crowded environment! LOL !

To me it’s similar to a tour guide taking their group and standing
directly in front of a spot everybody else wants to see while giving
their narration for 10 minutes rather than moving off to the side to
be less intrusive.

This is Italy, everyday of our trip. At Pompeii today, 3 separate 40+- tour groups, all dominating space in front of the same villa we were trying to enter, none actually trying to enter, just talking about it.

Maybe another topic, but 19 tour buses in the parking lot at 11:30 this morning as we left Pompeii.

Maybe another topic, but 19 tour buses in the parking lot at 11:30 this morning as we left Pompeii.

From this and recent posts from others there, Italy sounds like it is bursting at the seams with tourists.

I will be in Paris next week, assume I will encounter similar crowds, but hopefully not as bad as the reports from southern Italy.

BB, they're "living their best life!"

As much I despise selfies, I hate selfie sticks with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns.

Unfortunately, nobody with a selfie stick gives a rat's derriere about what I think.

Just never experienced an issue with selfie people and i sort of hate the "influencer" label as its passive aggressive at best.

I discovered that I can walk away, see something else, let them enjoy what they enjoy doing on holiday, and then come back, although I cant think of an instance where I had to do that.

Acceptance and tolerance of others and their peculiarities is a personal thing and it only impacts my enjoyment if I let it and that's why I ignore all the tourbus congestion, the roller bags stretched out 8 feet across the corridors in the airports, the backpacks swinging around on airplanes, the people who have never looked at the local currency until they have to count out 1,465 forints in what is supposed to be a fast serve line, the sidewalks clogged with tour groups, the loud shirtless brits, and on and on and on........

Pay attention to it and your holiday will be hell or learn tolerance and enjoy.

This topics seems to pop up often. Always amuses me. It seems like there are several different types of selfie takers. Yes, I have been annoyed by them before for obvious reasons to me but maybe not to you. Maybe it's not taking a selfie per say, but the behaviors that go along with it.

The social media gal at Parc Guell in Barcelona wearing her Victorian like costume/ outfit in the middle of the walking path while her companion complete with a tripod snapped photos blocking others path and view for a long length of time.
The young couple on our tour who asked others including me to snap them together in front of every single point of interest. They never took photos of just the view or with just one of them in the picture. Maybe these weren't selfies since they always asked others to take the photo. The large group of middle aged women (Ha, I'm middle aged), who blocked everyone's view while they snapped dozens of photos with various combos of the group posing at a time and critiqued each photo. The person at a Paris museum snapping a selfie of themselves in front of each painting. The tourists stopping abruptly in the middle of a crowded German square jumping in the air and snapping photos mid pose. Is that a thing? Are we are being too critical? Sharing the space and being considerate of others is always nice.

Hank, good topic. Thanks for the good posts all these years. My take on your questions.

Is it some sort of connecting the selfie to narcissism, which is
essentially antisocial in its effects?

That assumes one knows why the picture is being taken. This is where grandma grew up and I want her to see me here.

Is it somehow embarrassing seeing a person staring into a mirror
working on getting their face just right?

My life is complicated enough without worrying about other peoples' habits that have zero impact on me. If i start making judgments on that, I better be pretty perfect myself.

Is it the dumb faces, the ducky lips and high angles?

I would have to be the narcissist if I started worrying about their ability to compose a photo being less than mine.

Is it that people taking many selfies are fairly clearly living with
their heads in the reality of social media, not the reality of
reality?

And that affects me how? If it does affect me is it because i see them as less than me? That would make me the narcissist?

Is it that people taking selfies occupy more space with their
outstretched arms or sticks and than people not taking selfies?

That overlook has been there 2000 years and it will be there 2000 more years. I can wait. And someday, I might show up with some friends and take a little extra time telling them about how my grandmother walked those steps. Then the selfie group can wait. Or, I am happy to be in their picture.

Nope, just folks. Maybe not always the most considerate, but far from anything I am going to get mad over.

Ha, ha, PHJ. Too true.

Take a picture and move.

Be considerate of others.

Why is this so hard to understand?

No hate, just common courtesy.

Like others have said, it's not the fact of taking a selfie that bothers and annoys most people. After all, who cares what you are taking a photo of, selfie or something else. There's nothing inherently wrong with taking a photo of yourself if you don't have someone else to take it of you. It's the selfish inconsiderate behavior that seems to come with a lot of dedicated selfie takers. They hog good viewpoints taking multiple shots of themselves from several angles - as if they are doing a 'photo shoot' for a magazine or something. They are often rude and pushy when others are trying to take photos and those using selfie sticks somehow just don't notice that they are being reckless and downright dangerous with those sticks.

Pay attention to it and your holiday will be hell or learn tolerance
and enjoy.

Having never quite figured out how to do this in life as my Achilles heel. I'm still aspiring to it Mister E, no joke! Hopefully one day!

My ratio of selfies to pictures, especially on vacation, is about 1/500. So you know where I stand on this issue.

What I don't like are the people who have to stand right in the front of the viewing platform and take selfie after selfie with their "signature poses". While I look down my nose at those who drive up to a site, jump out, take a selfie and move on, I figure if that's the way they want to remember their vacation then it's none of my business. BUT, those who block everyone else's views for extended lengths of time are rude and need to move on.

I waited a long time to read all of this thread. That probably wasn’t a good idea because there sure are a lot of strong opinions on the topic. I am now wondering why I don’t have one…..

I know I have encountered some of the behavior everyone is talking about but I can’t remember it affecting me. Admittedly, I am not a serious photographer, so that is probably one reason. I am pretty sure, at some point with the amount of travel I do, I must go to popular places where people are all trying to take the same photo. But I have yet to not be able to take the one I want. Maybe another reason is that I am rarely in a hurry and don’t mind waiting. However, to counter that, I am also somewhat direct - so if someone is inconveniencing a line of people, I don’t have any problem with saying something about it - not as in “Move, please” but as in “I’m sorry - do you mind if we get a quick photo here since it looks like you will be a while?” And often, it’s entertainment, which I don’t mind watching, even if just for the giggles. I also have met some nice people and enjoyed some great conversations as a result of selfies - either mine or someone else’s.

Bottom line, there is a wide spectrum on the “selfish” line. I am sure I must cross someone else’s cut off at some point - how could it be otherwise? But I really hate to let someone else’s behavior, if not actually dangerous for me, change my enjoyment of travel and where I am. Sometimes I do - but I am always sorry later.

19 full tour busses, though, that’s another thing entirely….. Those people all just need to go home. 🤣🤣

Thanks for an interesting topic, Hank. I always appreciate your calm and measured responses. Plus you take some of the burden off Allan to come up with things for us to think about!

Don't all photographers take up that space to get their photo?

Absolutely! Since I often use a tripod I also block the way sometimes.

In Venice I've noticed that I didn't block it at any point for so long and I don't make such a stupid face as many have made :-) :-) These grimaces and kissing lips to be Insta perfect actually caused me one or the other eye roll to be honest :-)

But what really makes me angry isn't selfies in regular places. It makes me angry when nature is destroyed for the perfect staging of oneself. In Bavaria there are two places that now have to be guarded more closely .... probably there are more, but they were discussed in the media.

One place is in the Berchtesgaden National Park high above a waterfall. Again and again people climb into the so-called pool and pose lying in the water. A lot of stones have already broken off. The park rangers keep an eye out and catch someone from time to time but doesn't seem to be enough of a deterrent.

The other place is in a high moor in the foothills of the alps. A small expanse of water that is fed by groundwater and has bizarre rock formations under the surface of the water unfortunately has to serve as a place for self-staging for many. The water area is on private property and you have to walk through the protected moor to get there. It doesn't matter because the main thing is that the selfie is good.

There are also some places in the alps where landscape photographers misbehave and farmers are angry in the meantime. In the end it all leads to the fact that many places have to be made impassable.

Maybe another topic, but 19 tour buses in the parking lot at 11:30
this morning as we left Pompeii.

Just thinking I'm glad I got the Amalfi Coast out of the way last week before the buses head there. I don't have previous experience to compare how busy Southern Italy is this year, but one guide we used last week, said she's been constantly busy since March. She said it usually gets busy around Easter then pauses in May, but there's no break this year.

Out of a 100 photos on phone maybe 1 will be a selfie. My decent photos are on a camera and it can't take selfies - its a big selling point for the camera for me. I take photos to help keep the memories. I know what I look like - I don't need to proove I was there! Occasionally I'll ask someone else to take a photo of the 2 of us by giving them the camera - been doing that for 30 years - no one has ever stolen it yet. If I post on SM surely to share the view not my ugly mug?

And yes the self-takers tend to be totally self-obsessed - stay in the way- stand there looking at the bloody pictures they just took - like seriously?

Thank you Hank, but lets call my attitude more of an aspiration than a reality.

Proof in point:

Reading the posts I caution that what might be a minority is being used to falsely classify an entire group (where have we seen this before?) despite comments that imply it rarely impacted those commenting: “it happened to me once” or “it has happened to me” not it happens every day; and coming from a world traveler that will have the greatest opportunity to come into contact with “those people”.

Then I would say to be careful when the conversation goes beyond the topic of Time and begins to include the quality of their smile, the angle of the photo, the lack of appreciation for what is behind them, what they wear, how they laugh, the perceived focus of their attention on themselves as now there is an attempt to define them as not righteous travelers, a group that can be looked down upon to raise up those that are righteous.

Not pointing any fingers, I imagine a lot of the posts are at least in part in jest and I don’t read minds, just pointing out what the written text suggests might be going on.

I put this in the same category of rudeness and lack of consideration of other, as talking loudly on a cellphone in public, texting in a dark movie theater, no turn signals, and putting your bare feet on the airline armrests in front of you. Travel selfies and any photography for that matter, can be, and are done without any issue all the time. I surely understand that travel photos without people in it are kind of boring.

It's the exceptions where people hog space and views unnecessarily, and expect (or demand) people yield to their wishes that ruin it for others. To the question of "why". I dont think its hate as much as irritation. The presumption that I (admittedly un-photogenic) must get out of their way to satisfy some need for self-promotion is an insult.

Tolerance is a spectrum from "hate but dont do or say anything" to "full loving support". I think it is the right of experienced and older adults to judge behavior according to their tolerance level, not the "everyone is doing it, it must be OK" standard.

Selfies aren’t the problem, it’s herd behaviour and the associated mentality that makes it annoying, social media thrives on this.

Stan hit the nail on the head. Nothing wrong with selfies. At all. Just be considerate of others and utilize common courtesy. Is that too much to ask? The world doesn't revolve around you nor I.

"Hate" is hyperbole.

I agree 100% with this. "Nothing wrong with selfies. At all. Just be considerate of others and utilize common courtesy. Is that too much to ask? The world doesn't revolve around you nor I".

Two memories immediately popped into my head while reading this thread. Once was the Mona Lisa, and yes everyone was crowding in and not being very polite. I stood back waiting patiently, naively thinking people would move on. I turned around and saw the Wedding Feast. Much more interesting and hardly a soul was over there. The other memory was in Iceland in Seydisfjordur in front of the church. Everyone takes photos there of the rainbow bath. The day we were there people were taking their photos and immediately getting out of the way. It was really nice and everyone was so polite. People even offered to take others photos, and they did it quickly.

Americans hate selfies, but can't stop taking them

Surprisingly maybe, there have been some formal studies, and psychologists have ruminated on the topic of this thread.

As for the word hate (and acrimony, and despise) used above, I'm just using language broadly. Like how kids hate broccoli etc. I'd wager that 90% of the published use of the word hate really just means dislike.

All the same, you do see a lot of casual celebration online when real people die taking selfies. Maybe partly reflects (har har) some Western mythic, archetypal trope of comeuppance for narcissism. The originating (or at least monikering) myth is almost literally death by selfie afterall.

Narcissism is antisocial, or anti-collective maybe. People who are too sucked into their own concerns don't think about others.

Nothing wrong with selfies

I agree with that.

If anything, I wish it were only selfie takers I had to dodge. I really have no major issues with selfie taking except for the people who take way too many shots and too much time doing it, hogging the prime vantage point, etc.

I have far more "issues" with people who set up their 'photo shoots' in crowded tourist spots in the traditional format with one person acting as the photographer with a camera 10 or so feet from their subjects who also want "whatever" perfectly framed in the background. They take up way more precious real estate than a selfie taker...

Yesterday at the Tulip farm outside of Mt. Vernon, WA, I saw my first selfie tripod, designed for phone. They set it up to stand alone and then use a Bluetooth clicker to snap the photos. There was more than one family with these yesterday.

Let’s not forget the pre-wedding photo shoots with professional photographers taking up both prime real estate and time. Talk about feeling entitled.

Leonard--We have one of those and took it to Iceland on one trip. We have also used our Apple Watches for the same sort of thing.

Personally, we take a very few selfies, maybe 6 or so, on a two week trip. These mostly don't get posted on line. This is our personal record shared with only our close, and small, friend community. We are not saying, "This Proves" we were there. Its a moment in time that was fun, to remember with.

What I have seen though, is what Stan has questioned,. " Is it that people taking many selfies are fairly clearly living with their heads in the reality of social media, not the reality of reality?"

I think the answer to that is, "Yes."

Younger people... and here comes the broad brush - from the old person; they seem more interested in the posted LIKES - after the event, then even being there in the moment, and directly experiencing something.

I have found this to be odd. There are plenty of other people that have recorded events, like the routine light display of the Eiffel tower. In a digital world, people want to own this as theirs. So you have thousands of badly done Vids of the light show. And I've personally witnessed, that in many of these iconic events, 90% of the young people saw the event entirely through their phone's camera, to later post online. The Likes online are more important than just seeing it yourself through your own eyes. Its a generational difference suborn by easy technology. Those crazy kidds..... getting killed, doing silly things, with millions of views on the internet.

This! (from MariaF):

If it is one person stretching an arm, 3 or 4 quick clicks, then
retracting arm, fine. But a group taking up key vantage space, then
having to review the 20 photos times as many people in the group, not
leaving the key vantage space - not so fine.

The multiple wardrobe changes, and the "Ecstasy of St. Theresa" and crotch grabbing poses bug me too.

I don't understand why common courtesy and consideration of others needs to be so specifically defined.