Schengen clarification please

You were OK and I was doing well until the idea of starting a second 180 days without leaving. It is really quite simple - 90 days of out an 180 day period. It gets complicated counting if you are dropping in and out the zone. It is a rolling forward 180 day period and each days essentially starts a new 180 day period. A simplified example. Go to the Schengen zone on Jan 1 for day (starts 180day), return Apr/May/June for 89 days (the end of the 180 day). Return on July 1 for another 90 days and start a new 180 days. I think that is what you are trying to do (if I am wrong, correct me). That pattern would NOT be permitted since you would have more than 90 days in ANY one 180 day period. The 180 day period is NOT a fixed time period. Everyday is the beginning of a new 180 day period. Crazy, I know.

If you have been in 90 days, there is no way to reset or start over without being gone for 90 days. A easy to determine your eligibility is to look days 180 days. If you have 90 days in the previous 180 days, your are done. There is a web site where you can plug in your dates and it will tell you if you are legal. I will post it later when I find it.

Every time I see a question like this I wonder why people make things so complicated, especially when screwing up can cause so many hassles.

Is there any reason why you couldn't do -90 days in Schengen, then +90 out? Then you would be okay to go back to Schengen for -90.

As I understand it, even one minute over your 90 counts as a day and can possibly cause problems.

Hopefully, others will correct me if needed and explain the "rolling" 90/180 math which totally escapes me.

Remember the wording, "90 days out of ANY 180 day period". There is no official start or stop date of the 180 day period, it is constantly moving as time goes on.
If you entered mid April and left at the end of May after 45 days, came back at the beginning of September, about Oct 15 you will have been beyond 180 from your first entry date and each day you stay one day drops off your start date, but by the end of November, you are approaching 90 days from your second entry in September so you would have to leave for at least another 90 days.

Donna,

I believe this is the link that Frank was referring to. It will help calculate the Schengen days for you. What a fun "part 2" of your retirement!

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/border-crossing/schengen_calculator_en.html

On a side note.... you will LOVE Keukenhof!!! I went there in April for the first time this year, and it is indescribable! If you're into bike riding, you can rent a bike for 10 euro at the end of the parking lot and then ride around on paths to see (and smell!) the tulip and hyacinth fields.

If I can describe this well, let's think of it as something from a board game. Like a cardboard spinner, but instead there's a window on top that moves around.

The bottom piece of cardboard has all 365 days of the year, in order like little pieces of pie. January 1, then 2, and on around until December 31 is next to January 1 again.

On top of that, fastened in the middle, is another piece of cardboard. This has a window in it that is exactly 180 days wide. If you put the first part of that window on January 1, it will show all days until (I think) June 28. The other days aren't shown-they're under the cardboard. If you move the first bit to January 4, then you can see until July 1st (ish).

Put a mark on every day that you spent inside the Shengen zone.

Now, within that 180 window, you cannot have more than 90 days marked as Shengen days. But, look, it moves. So those days at the beginning of your window are dropping off. But you add new ones. Every day, you can look at your wheelie and see how many days you've been in Shengen, and how many you have left.

I know that there are apps for it, and better explanations than I have given here. However, it always confuses people, and they think they can just go out to "re-set" or count one 180 day period, and then start new with another. If it's a moving cardboard wheelie window, it makes a little more sense.

Well, I think it does.

The bottom line is that EU immigration does not care what our long term plans are, or when we started. They care if we've spent more than 90 of the last 180 there, or are likely to do so.

If you come and go from the Schengen zone, it will take you longer to use up your 90 days, but if you want a whole new 90 days, you have to be out of the zone for 90 days before going back (to let all of those dots in the wheelie window go away).

It took a while to follow you plan and a spread sheet. This what I have determine with some simplification and rounding. In and out refers to the Schengen zone - In the zone, out of the zone.

IN OUT
15 days IN April 15
30 IN May
June 30 days OUT
July 30 OUT
Aug 30 OUT
30 IN Sep
15 IN Oct 15 You are done.

You could return on Nov 1 for 15 days. Because looking back you have been in the Zone for 75 days, 30,30,15.
Or return on Dec 1 for 45 days since you have been in the zone for 45 days out of the past 180.

Is this any clearer???? Talk to us.
( I could not get my formatting to hold.)

One additional thought. If planning to stay a long time just apply for a long term/stay visa for one of the countries. A few hurdles to jump over but solves the problem of counting. Another approach would be 30 in and 30 out as a repeat cycle. You could do that forever.

Karen, I love that description!

I'm a severely visual person and the large open pie window that reveals the narrow pie slices representing the days makes a great way to visualize the in and out Schengen days all at once.

@ Karen, yes. I was thinking of a linear slide rule analogy, but I like the dial face analogy better.

@ Frank, I think they may be OK into the end of November. If they leave on May 30, there is still 1 more day of the month left. June has 30 days, July has 31 days, and August has 31 days. So if they return on September 1, there is a gap of 93 days between exit and re-entry. Staying beyond October 15 is certainly within the rules, since in the last 180 days they were out of the zone 93 days, therefore in the zone for 87 days in the last 180. Each day they extend adds 1 day on the front end, but subtracts 1 day off the back end.

September 30 IN
October 31 IN
November, better be gone by the 29th.

Karen, great description! I will always think of this wheelie now when I think of Schengen! Thanks for sharing.

How are you going to pack a cardboard wheel? and still pack light.

Sam, you missed the point of the discussion. Well aware of 30 and 31 day months. The disclaimer was a simplified and rounded example. The OP was not asking about specific dates that they could or could not be in the Schengen zone but rather how the 180 day period worked. My example and the cardboard wheels addresses that very well since the OP was assuming that the 180 day period was a fixed period of time.

First of all, the wheelie should be made of thinner chip board, not heavy cardboard. Also, it should have more than one function. It can be used as a packing guide, and go inside berets.

Oh, I’m so glad I asked, because I did not understand the rolling part. Thank you all! Now I think I need to sit with the calendar and some tracing paper and think about options. Lots of options. Like researching the best blooming times for a whole bunch of gardens listed in that garden thread.

Frank: I appreciate the detailed explanations.

Yes, it’s clearer.

We have done some research on extended visas, after reading the blog of another retired couple who is traveling around Europe. But, as there is no guarantee that a visa would be granted, I feel I should plan for that scenario. I am aware that France is an option. I read somewhere here about all the hoops Italy requires be jumped through. Are there other countries that might do it?
I’ll have to look at that 30 in and out pattern, but that would mean higher transportation costs as well.

Lo: With this initial plan, the idea was to be in the British Isles in the summer, with the hopes of catching the best weather there then. That’s why part of the 90 in the beginning and part after the 90 out.

Dawn: Thanks for the calculator. I have been looking forward to seeing Keukenhof for more than 20 years! I didn’t see anything on their website about any type of multiple days admission pass, but after waiting, I don’t think I’ll mind paying to go more than once, or twice. I haven’t ridden a bike in an awfully long time, I guess it’ll come back to me!

Karen: I love the board game explanation1 But I think that wheel would have to be awfully big to accommodate 365/366 days and still be legible, especially with my bifocals. Karen’s Schengen Wheel, patent pending!

Again, thank you all!

I have lots of time to think on long drive days in the RV. Another question occurred to me while thinking about options. Assuming neither of us has any problems with cruising, we may wish to return to the US via cruise ship as well. I found a cruise that leaves from England and stops in several locations in Norway and Iceland. How does one count days when doing this? This assumes we’ve used our 90 (okay, 89) days in, but are still within the 180 day period. Part two of this question, how do you count days if a Baltic Seas or Mediterranean cruise is part of ones plans?

Thanks.

That is a good question and I don't have a good answer. The first advice is that you need to have good documentation when ducking in and out of the zone since your passport is not always stamped with an entry/exit stamp. And I would track where the stamps are in the passport. Last May I was hung up in LaRochell when departing France. The exit immigration office could not find the entry stamp on the first pass through the passport. About half, 2/3rds of my pages are covered with stamps. He quickly found entry for 2013 and his questions became more pointed quickly. Lots of quick questions about where I had been and when as he slowly paged through the passport the second time. We entered France via the Eurostar about a week earlier and that entry stamp was about the size of quarter in the corner of one of the pages. He finally found it. In the future I will make sure I know where those stamps are.

We have been on several European cruises I cannot recall exactly how the passports were always handled. In Turkey the passports were taken by the ship, returned after we left Turkey, and was stamped but don't believe the passport was stamped when in Schengen zone ports other than the initial entry. Generally speaking, one minute in any Schengen zone country counts as one day. So, I would think, that days ashore would count but days exclusively at sea would not. Keep a copy of your cruise schedule in case the question arises. And maybe I would not run so tight that a day or two at sea would make that much difference.

Years ago this did not seem to be a major concern. But with the coming of the internet, computers, etc., and the increased concerned about illegal immigration, I think it is much easier to track people and immigration control is cracking down.

Good luck.

I'll have to add this to my list of things to research.

I do appreciate the help with clarifying this for me. Thank you all.